Energy Costs in Wales

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

I will respond to some of the points that have been made, but we need to recognise that the absolute cause of the challenge is the war in Ukraine and Putin’s aggression. Anyone who seeks to weaponise the increase in energy prices for political ends is undermining the war effort and Ukraine’s right to defend its nation. It is a serious issue, but that does not mean that we do not need to react.

The Government are reacting. We need to recognise some of the things they are doing and congratulate them, but there will be other areas where we want to press for further support. That is an intelligent way to pursue a debate, rather than saying that everything politicians in Cardiff Bay are doing is right and everything those in Whitehall are doing is wrong. That is simply not credible and it is not the case. I am disappointed that the war in Ukraine is being weaponised in this way.

Just weeks ago, we saw the explosions at Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, which were clearly attacks, although we have no certainty about the reasons for them or their source. They have had an impact on supplies across Europe, but thankfully supplies to the UK do not come from Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, and are therefore much more secure. I underline my interest as chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for energy security. It would be helpful for us all to recognise that energy is traded at a multi-national, if not a global, level. That is part of the complexity of the situation, rather than the simplicity that has been described.

Constituents want to know exactly what support they will get. Everyone will get a grant of £400 in addition to a council tax rebate of £150 for properties in bands A to D. There are also additional payments, including a cost of living payment of £650 for benefit claimants, a one-off payment of £300 for pensioners for heating, and a disability cost of living payment of £150. Those payments will alleviate the situation and make sure that some people are able to keep the fires burning. They may have formed the impression that they could end up in an extremely unfortunate situation, but they may well be able to avoid that, depending on their individual circumstances.

The energy price guarantee announced a couple of weeks ago is an extremely welcome measure, and it would be helpful for the Opposition to recognise that. I press the hon. Member for Cardiff North to acknowledge that it is the most generous package that has been offered across Europe. I am happy to be corrected if the hon. Lady wishes to intervene, but independent sources say it is the most generous package in Europe, which means that people in similar circumstances in Europe will find themselves worse off. I am not saying that is a good thing; it is not a good thing. More needs to be done to support everyone—not only across Europe, but well beyond—because the conflict in Ukraine has created a global challenge.

The energy consumption of an average property will cost £2,500. There is a lot of misunderstanding about that. People will pay depending on their energy consumption and that figure is an average cost, which is provided as a guide. It is a significant increase, but lower than it would otherwise have been without the energy price guarantee, and the additional payments will support people and allow them to cope with those increases.

I find it difficult to believe that everything the Welsh Government are doing is right and everything Whitehall is doing is wrong. On the one hand, the hon. Member for Cardiff North claimed that people were living in cold, damp and uninsulated homes—and many are and we need to recognise that—but then seemed to champion the insulating programme and schemes that the Welsh Government have been pursuing. It cannot be one or the other; we must recognise that it is a complex situation and that people are finding themselves in difficult circumstances.

I find it difficult that the wider public debate makes such an issue of a public information campaign. This debate could serve as a public information campaign in itself if it were conducted in a reasonable and intelligent way. We need to recognise that this issue is rightly dominating the news and people should be able to interpret that large increases in energy prices will mean consumption needs to be managed to prevent cost of living challenges. In addition, information is being made available by the Energy Saving Trust, Ofgem and so many other agencies and charitable organisations. I would much prefer that the money that would have been spent on a public information campaign is spent on supporting people to reduce their bills, rather than on duplicating and repeating what we could do and what is available freely on the internet.

I ask the Minister for guidance on two points. I have already highlighted the domestic levels of support that are available, and they are significant, but we need further clarity on park homes. It is not clear how they will be able to benefit, because of how their meters work compared with others. I recognise that this is the first day that Parliament is sitting and therefore it has not been easy to communicate all the messages that need to be communicated, but there are a number of park homes in my constituency and across the whole of the UK—Wales possibly has a disproportionate number of park homes—so further clarity would be helpful. Reassuring messages have been given, but it is helpful to have the mechanics of how it should work.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman raised this point because I asked a written question on this issue and was referred to an answer to another Member. That answer was not particularly clear to me, so when my constituents ask me how they will receive the support I am unable to provide that answer. I am sure that, like me, the right hon. Gentleman would like the Minister to clarify that today.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for underlining that point. I recognise that it is a complex situation. There are so many facets, which is why, again, we need to have a reasonable debate to address these serious issues. Until now people in park homes will not have had much clarity from this debate, and I look to the Minister to provide it, but it is not a straightforward situation.

I seek greater clarity on the level of support and I press the Minister to look again at extending support for off-grid properties. Many residents in my constituency—I declare an interest as one of them—do not have the privileges or benefits of mains gas and therefore depend on either liquefied petroleum gas or oil. We need to recognise that there is a standard volatility in that marketplace, and off-grid properties may have benefited when oil prices were extremely low during the covid period, at less than $20 a barrel of oil—I ensured that I filled my tank up at that time—compared with the 85p, 86p or even 90p a litre that is available now. I was talking about $19 a barrel, but that was also 19p a litre at the time. It is now up to 90p per litre of oil, which people off-grid have to use, and LPG will have a similar volatility. I hope the Minister will give that greater consideration or at least provide some hope that there will be further support.

There is a final area of support to which I hope the Minister will be able to bring some clarity—not necessarily now, because it is quite a complex picture, but certainly by providing greater information or tables online. The Government website sets out examples of different sorts of businesses and how they will benefit, from the average corner shop or pub to larger organisations. It explains the types of approach and savings that they would make. I looked for specific examples of numbers to be provided according to the market rate. One grocery business in a rural area in my constituency was paying 21p per kWh; now, at the market rate, it is paying £1.26 per kWh. When a business seeks to negotiate through a broker for guarantees of the level of Government intervention and how much that will be, the broker makes the case—as do energy providers; I have spoken to some—that they do not know how much the Government discount is specifically until they accept the contract, as that is when they can confirm it. That does not seem to be the most reasonable position.

I am not saying the Government are to blame for that, but I suspect greater clarity over the numbers will help businesses in my constituency and elsewhere to understand what exactly the discount is. It is in the region of 40% in some cases, while it is less in others. It depends on use. Clarity is needed to provide scrutiny and ensure the most understanding. Although the discount is 40%, if someone happens to have come off a fixed-term contract and moved from 21p up to about 80p, that is still a significant increase.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Absolutely. I will meet the hon. Lady and work with her to co-ordinate our response. I recognise the priority she has placed on this operation for some time and she highlighted some of the risks and concerns she had some time ago. Yesterday, I spoke to Roy Rickhuss from Community union. I have, naturally, also spoken to Tata. We are working with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy in terms of challenging the issues that Tata is raising to seek to bring it to the most competitive position possible.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

With reports that the British Government are stockpiling body bags as part of their no-deal Brexit preparations, what assessment has the Secretary of State undertaken of the amount of Welsh people who may die as a result of medical shortages for a no-deal Brexit?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman, by supporting the motion last night and the Bill this evening, is simply prolonging the uncertainty. The Welsh people and the British people want certainty about our exit from the European Union. We are determined to leave at the end of October. We would like to leave with a deal—that will give us the smoothest possible exit—but at least we can plan for the opportunities the future brings. [Interruption.]

Ford in Bridgend

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 10th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Secretary of State has been on an interesting journey from supporting remain during the referendum, when he said that the people of Wales could “suffer enormously” if they voted for Brexit, to supporting the most extreme Brexiteer in the Tory leadership—a reckless no-dealer. The reality is that we have a Secretary of State representing my country who is more interested in his own career than in the jobs of thousands of manufacturers back home in Wales.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman wants an independent Wales, but I am unsure what opportunities that would create for attracting investment in the Welsh economy. He will be well aware that I am a strong supporter of a deal with the European Union, but I have also stated clearly that maintaining no deal as an option, a challenge and a risk, both for the European Union and for the UK economy, focuses minds on gaining a deal. A deal will also create the best opportunities for the UK and European economies to continue to attract investment and to gain access to one another’s markets.

St David’s Day

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 28th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My tone is certainly not vitriolic in any way. I am seeking to contrast the situation in 2010 and the good place Wales is now in because of the joint work with the Welsh Government. I will come on to that as the second theme I am seeking to develop. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the constructive way in which he works in relation to the challenges and issues that his constituency faces. On the specific point he makes about teachers’ pensions and so on, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the Welsh Government on 11 February to clarify that additional resource is being made available. How the Welsh Government distribute that is a matter for them, but I hope that answers many of the questions that have been asked.

Whether it is “Lonely Planet” highlighting north Wales as one of the best places to visit, “The Rough Guide” pointing to Wales as one of the most beautiful countries or the Eurobarometer poll pointing out that Cardiff is one of the best cities to live in across Europe, Wales is in a strong position. Wales is a beautiful location, and it has a lot to offer to the United Kingdom and to the rest of Europe and beyond. In the spirit of my right hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd West and for Preseli Pembrokeshire, I want to celebrate what Wales has to offer. We should bear in mind that we are talking to international investors. Such people will be watching and reading this debate, and I am proud of what we have achieved and of the potential and the opportunity in front of us.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Secretary of State has mentioned international investors, who will of course be watching the upcoming sequence of votes we are about to have on Brexit. He knows that the British Government’s view will be defeated on 12 March. What will he do on the 13th? Are the press rumours that he will vote for no deal on the 13th correct, because that would be disastrous for the Welsh economy?

[Alun Cairns]

I am disappointed by the approach the hon. Gentleman is taking. On the one hand, he, like many other Members in the House, will point to individual companies that are fearful of a no-deal Brexit, or farming unions and other organisations that have said they are fearful of or do not want to face a no-deal Brexit. On the other hand, however, such Members are not prepared to take the advice of those companies or farming unions that are urging them to support the Prime Minister’s deal. On that basis, they are being highly selective. The best way to secure a smooth exit from the European Union and to act on the instruction of the referendum is to support the Prime Minister’s deal. When that debate comes, I hope that Members will look at themselves and think long and hard about the risks they are taking with the Welsh economy and the UK economy if they vote against the Prime Minister’s deal, which offers us a smooth exit from the European Union and access to the European market, while confirming our position as an independent trading nation.

I wish to highlight my positive relationship with the Welsh Government, our negotiations on Brexit, and the legislative consent motion that we secured for the withdrawal Bill. The Welsh Government sit on the Cabinet sub-committee that considers preparations for Brexit, which is positive, and I hope that they will extend similar respect and opportunity for UK Government representatives to sit on their committees, because of the importance of leaving the EU in a conjoined way.

I point to the UK industrial strategy and the city deals. It was a privilege to launch the Cardiff capital region city deal plan this morning, and we are working closely with the Welsh Government on the Swansea city deal. North Wales has been mentioned on several occasions, and I am open to considering additional or different projects as a result of recent economic announcements about pausing work on the nuclear power station on Anglesey, rather than scrapping or suspending it as has been suggested. There is also the mid-Wales growth deal.

Finally, for a demonstration of joint working with the Welsh Government and local authorities across Wales, in a couple of weeks, together with local authority representatives, I will launch the first ever catalogue of Welsh projects at the MIPIM conference, to attract international investment because of the new opportunities that Brexit will bring.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

There are a lot of very noisy private conversations taking place, but I want to hear the mellifluous tone of Jonathan Edwards.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The latest HMRC statistics show a 7% increase in Welsh exports to the EU, worth £643 million, while non-EU exports have fallen. Is it not the reality that trade deals with the US, China and the moon will never replace lost trade with the single market and the customs union?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the export data that I highlighted—that exports from Wales have grown faster than from other parts of the United Kingdom—and I could cite a range of export opportunities in other parts of the world on which Wales is doing better than other parts of the UK. I am hugely impressed by the renewed interest in the UK by an international audience as a result of our leaving the European Union—Aston Martin, Qatar Airways and a host of others that I could cite are clear demonstrations of that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 18th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I think the hon. Gentleman is out of date. The latest statements from Airbus have welcomed the Chequers agreement, because it will allow the company to protect its supply chain. That demonstrates the positive relationship that we have with large international companies, in seeking to protect their interests but taking the opportunities of leaving the European Union and looking to new markets elsewhere.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

15. Is it not the case that following the passing of the Trade Bill yesterday, Wallonia, a region of Belgium, will have more influence over EU trade policy than Wales will have over post-Brexit UK trade policy?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade announced that we will have the widest, most extensive consultation in relation to future trading arrangements. We will not only talk to the devolved Administrations regularly, as I always do, but talk to key stakeholders in Wales to ensure that we respond to their priorities. We are determined to have the widest consultation to ensure that people have the facts at hand rather than sometimes inaccurate reports.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I would really like the tidal lagoon to go ahead, but of course it must prove to be value for money. Tidal projects could have a positive energy potential, but of course they must deliver value for money for the taxpayer. A number of proposals have been made, and I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is supportive of just the project he mentions or marine and tidal projects in general.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Secretary of State is fast becoming the grim reaper of Welsh politics—the bearer of bad news. When he pulls the plug on the lagoon there will be huge public anger in Wales. Many people back in the motherland will be left asking not only what the point of the current Secretary of State is, but what the point of having a colonial Secretary at all is.

[Alun Cairns]

I am disappointed with the tone the hon. Gentleman takes. I would hope that he would recognise the fair funding settlement that we got for Wales—something that the Labour party ignored for 13 years; the Severn tolls announcement; and the city and growth deals that we have got. For Swansea there is a £1.3 billion scheme, and the Cardiff scheme is the biggest in the UK. I hope that demonstrates the value that a Secretary of State for Wales can bring.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales (Morning sitting)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Alun Cairns]

Rwyf yn ddiolchgar i fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus am godi’r pwynt. Yn amlwg, dydw i ddim yn gwybod pam nad yw Prif Weinidog y Cynulliad yn fodlon rhoi tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor Dethol. Yn amlwg, byddai hynny’n cryfhau’r sylwadau sydd wedi eu gwneud a, hefyd, yn rhoi mwy o fanylion ynglŷn â’r gefnogaeth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn fodlon rhoi. Yn amlwg, rwyf yn awyddus i gydweithio’n agos gyda Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, fel yr ydym wedi gwneud gyda chymaint o wahanol gynlluniau dros yr amser rwyf wedi bod yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a’r rhai sydd wedi bod o’m blaen.

(Translation) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. I do not know why the First Minister of the National Assembly is not willing to give evidence before the Select Committee. Obviously, that would strengthen the comments that have been made, and would give further clarity about the support that the Welsh Government are willing to give. I am eager to collaborate with the Welsh Government, as we have done on many schemes during the period that I have been Secretary of State.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Rwy’n gallu rhannu rhai o’r pryderon ynglŷn â’r model contracts for difference. Mae’n ffordd ddrud iawn o ariannu prosiectau fel hyn ac mae’r pris, yn y pen draw, yn cwympo ar y defnyddwyr. Pam nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn edrych ar model o ariannu cyfalaf uniongyrchol? Yn y pen draw, mae pobl yn talu naill ai trwy brisiau ynni neu drwy trethi. Byddai’n llawer rhatach i bobl dalu trwy eu trethi na thrwy brisiau ynni.

(Translation) I share some of the concerns about the contracts for difference model. It is a very expensive way of funding such projects, and the ultimate price will fall on the consumer. Why are the Government not looking at a direct capital funding model? People pay either through energy prices or through their taxes, and it is far better that they pay through taxes rather than energy prices.

[Alun Cairns]

Yn amlwg, pa bynnag ffordd mae unrhyw brosiect neu gynllun fel hyn yn cael ei ariannu, mae’n rhaid bod trethdalwyr yn cefnogi’r peth. Dyna’r pwynt sydd yn cael ei wneud, felly mae’n rhaid ein bod yn profi gwerth arian unrhyw fath o gynllun, a byddwn yn tybio bydd yr Aelod dros Ddwyrain Caerfyrddin a Dinefwr yn cefnogi’r peth. Mae’n rhaid ein bod yn cefnogi gwerth yr arian a gwerth unrhyw gynllun a dyna wirionedd y peth yn y pen draw.

Yn ei ddatganiad o’r Gyllideb, nododd fy Nghyfaill anrhydeddus y Canghellor gynlluniau i sicrhau cynnydd o £1.2 biliwn i gyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae’r cynnydd yn y cyllid yn cynnwys, am y tro cyntaf, mwy na £65 miliwn dros y tair mlynedd nesaf o ganlyniad i wella fformiwla Barnett o ryw 5%, a gytunwyd yn fframwaith cyllidol Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae hyn yn addasu grant bloc Llywodraeth Cymru i adlewyrchu’r ffactor seiliedig ar anghenion a gytunwyd yn ei fframwaith cyllidol.

Mae’r drafodaeth ynghylch cyllid Cymru wedi bodoli ers datganoli—ac ers degawadau—a’r Llywodraeth hon sydd wedi rhoi sicrwydd ariannol tymor hir i Gymru. Ar hyn y bryd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cael £120 am bob £100 cymaradwy sydd yn cael ei wario yn Lloegr.

(Translation) Evidently, whichever way a scheme such as this is financed, taxpayers must support it. That is the point. Therefore, we must test the value for money of any such scheme, and I believe that the hon. Gentleman will support that. That is the truth of the matter.

In my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Budget statement, he set out plans to increase the Welsh Government budget by £1.2 billion. The increased funding includes, for the first time, more than £65 million over the next three years resulting from the 5% Barnett formula boost agreed in the Welsh Government’s fiscal framework, which adjusts the Welsh Government block grant to reflect the needs-based factor, as agreed by their fiscal framework.

Many hon. Members will know that that discussion about the Welsh budget has taken place since devolution and has gone on for decades. This UK Government have given long-term financial security to Wales. The Welsh Government receive £120 for every equivalent £100 spent in England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

rose—

[Alun Cairns]

Mr Owen, gyda’ch cytundeb, ildiaf i’r anrhydeddus Aelod dros Dwyrain Caerfyrddin a Dinefwr.

(Translation) With your permission, Mr Owen, I will give way to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr.

[Jonathan Edwards]

O ystyried hoffder y Llywodraeth Prydeinig o drenau dau-danwydd yng nghyd-destun rheilffyrdd Cymru, gallaf gymryd mai trenau dau-danwydd bydd yn rhedeg ar HS2, HS3 a Crossrail 2?

(Translation) Given the Government’s liking for bimodal-fuel vehicles for Welsh railways, may I assume that bimodal trains will be running on HS2, HS3 and Crossrail?

[Alun Cairns]

Rwy’n siwr bydd y Bonheddwr anrhydeddus yn cefnogi edrych ar unrhyw brosiect i ddefnyddio’r dechnoleg orau posib ar gyfer cyflawni’r gwariant a’r gwerth arian sydd ymhob prosiect.

Gaf i symud ymlaen, Mr Owen? Rydym wedi gwella’r cysylltiad yng ngogledd Cymru, gan roi budd i bobl ar ddwy ochr y ffin. Bydd gwasanaethau uniongyrchol o ogledd Cymru i Lerpwl ar gael am y tro cyntaf mewn degawdau, diolch i’r buddsoddiad o £16 miliwn i’r Halton curve. Nawr rydym yn darparu prosiect ail-signalu gwerth £50 miliwn i uwchraddio rheilffyrdd gogledd Cymru. Byddai moderneiddio prif linell rheilffordd arfordir y gogledd yn rhoi hwb sylweddol i gysylltiadau trafnidiaeth y rhanbarth. Mae ein rhaglen moderneiddio Great Western, gan gynnwys ein buddsoddiad o £5.7 biliwn mewn trenau IEP o'r radd flaenaf, yn torri 15 munud oddi ar yr amseroedd teithio o dde Cymru i Lundain.

(Translation) Obviously, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be supportive of any project that will use the best possible technology to achieve the expenditure and the value for money that all projects require.

May I move on? We are improving connectivity for north Wales, benefiting people on both sides of the border, and direct services from north Wales to Liverpool will be possible for the first time in decades. That is thanks to our £16 million investment in the Halton curve. We are now delivering a £50 million re-signalling project to upgrade north Wales’s railway, and modernising the north Wales coast main line would be a significant boost to the region’s transport links. Our Great Western modernisation programme, including a £5.7 billion investment in new, state-of-the-art IEP trains, will cut journey times from south Wales to London by 15 minutes. At the Budget—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 31st January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about public transport in general. The Great Western franchise is out for consultation as we speak, and I encourage her, her constituents and south Wales Members to make representations about the improvements they would like. She talked about overcrowding, but one of the most overcrowded roads in the UK is around the Brynglas tunnels in Newport. I hope the Welsh Government get on with building that road sooner rather than later. After all, the UK Government made money available more than three years ago, and we are frustrated by the lack of response and reaction in building it.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Since assuming office, the Secretary of State has broken a promise to electrify the main line to Swansea; vetoed devolving airport taxes to Wales because he does not want to upset Bristol airport; and not delivered on the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Is not the reality that his record on the economy is failure, failure, failure?

[Alun Cairns]

I am disappointed with the hon. Gentleman’s tone. I would point to significant wins for Wales over recent years, the most important of which is the fair funding settlement, which provided a 5% uplift—it will be a £67 million uplift in the next financial year and similar sums in subsequent years. Thirteen years of underfunding by the Labour party have been corrected in the first year of a Conservative Administration.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 1st November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I hope that the hon. Lady recognises that we are using the latest technology so that we have more capacity and faster trains going to Swansea. She needs to consider the fact that the original plans involved 15-minute savings between Swansea and Paddington, but the bimodal trains will still bring about 15-minute savings. We are bringing in the most modern technology and the most modern bimodal trains on the network now, rather than waiting another couple of years and causing Swansea additional disruption.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

With reports that HS2 will cost more than £100 billion, alongside £15 billion for HS3 and another £30 billion for Crossrail 2, it is an absolute scandal that the British Government have broken their promise to electrify the main line to Swansea, despite the fact that that would cost only £400 million. Given the priorities of the British Government, is it not the case that the only way to ensure that Wales gets its fair share of rail investment is to devolve full responsibility for rail infrastructure?

[Alun Cairns]

I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman’s tone because the bimodal trains will improve connectivity to his constituency and west Wales. His constituents would not have benefited from the previous proposal for electric-only trains to Swansea. Of course, the network in Wales is part of the UK network, and when he compares spending, he needs to think logically. For example, he has been supportive of the Halton curve, which is in England but will bring major benefits to the network between north Wales and Liverpool.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend regularly shows a great interest in Wales and he obviously knows a lot about the Welsh economy. He mentions the high-tech sectors. We have seen the expansion of General Dynamics, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and I visited a couple of weeks ago. On that same day, we both handed over the Red Dragon super-hangar to Aston Martin. These are real jobs that are being created by real investors creating new opportunities.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

13. In leaving the European customs union, Welsh manufacturers and farmers will lose the solid protections offered by the bloc. Why does the Secretary of State not come clean today and admit that it is the Tories’ intention to sell Welsh producers down the river in order to open up markets for the bankers of London?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will recognise that exports from Wales have grown significantly, by 6.2%, over the past year. That is something that we welcome. He will also recognise the data that I highlighted earlier about record levels of employment and record low levels of unemployment. On that basis, he will recognise that we want the freest possible open trading arrangements in support of Welsh farmers, because we maintain an active relationship with them—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 8th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily meet the hon. Gentleman, although I do not necessarily recognise his message about our approach to Brexit—we want a deal that works for every part of the United Kingdom.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would welcome the fact that unemployment across Wales is lower than the UK average, which is remarkable considering the industrial heritage of constituencies in Wales such as the hon. Gentleman’s. I will happily work with him on the issues he raises in connection with the Department for Work and Pensions.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In his evidence to the Brexit Select Committee yesterday, Cabinet Secretary Mark Drakeford also said that the Welsh Government were, disgracefully, not made aware of the UK Government’s 12-point Brexit plan or their White Paper. What is the Secretary of State doing to ensure that the Plaid Cymru-Welsh Government Brexit White Paper is fed into the article 50 letter and accompanying documents?

[Alun Cairns]

The Welsh Government’s White Paper on exiting the European Union was considered by the Joint Ministerial Committee at the end of February, and we have a significant amount of common ground. The Welsh Government talk about “unfettered access”, while my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has talked about “frictionless” access and trade. We can work on the basis of a lot of common ground, and I am optimistic that we will continue to work in a positive environment with the Welsh Government and the other devolved Administrations to secure a Brexit deal that works for every part of the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he has done on this important issue. I think he drew attention to it at one of the first meetings immediately after the general election, and that started the discussions that have led to the Growth Track 360 proposal. There are growth elements and transport infrastructure elements, and it is important that we ensure that those come together for the benefit of the whole region. I am happy to work with him and with the Department for Transport as we approach the control period 6 considerations that will take place in due course.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I, too, associate my party and myself with the Secretary of State’s comments on the Aberfan disaster.

The Treasury aims to pool local government pension schemes in Wales and England to create wealth funds to invest in infrastructure, with each fund containing accumulated assets of £25 billion. Combined Welsh assets amount to £13 billion, meaning that if the Treasury has its way, Welsh funds will be swallowed up by a cross-border pool. Will the Secretary of State demand a specific Welsh wealth fund so that the contributions of Welsh local government workers are used to invest in infrastructure projects in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises a fairly technical area of policy. Appropriate economies of scale are involved in this. I am happy to discuss the details with him. The Welsh Government have made their views clear. However, it is not only about “Welsh money for Wales”—which, on the face of it, would sound good—but about having the economies of scale such that we can access funding elsewhere as well. Therefore, it is not necessarily the right thing, but I am certainly not closed to the idea.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has made his intervention, but I would still underline the stability of the existing system and the certainty it provides. The title of the St David’s Day agreement was “Powers for a purpose” and I am still seeking to understand what additional purpose would be provided to anyone living or working Wales should there be a separate jurisdiction.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Secretary of State pointed to the administration of the courts in Wales and HMCTS, which has of course recently decimated court service provision across many parts of Wales, including the magistrates court in Carmarthen. When he talks about the benefits of a single jurisdiction, is that what he has in mind?

[Alun Cairns]

The consequence, of course, would be to spend more money on public sector administration such as that. That would preclude the new innovations the Ministry of Justice is seeking to introduce, and new innovations clearly provide new opportunities. There is the opportunity for new services to be brought closer to communities, should we look at how we can enhance and make the system more efficient.

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[Jonathan Edwards]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mr Deputy Speaker. Amendment 67 and new clause 10, which are in my name and those of my parliamentary colleagues, would put the devolution of the Wales and Borders franchise clearly in the Bill, fulfilling the UK Government’s promise to do so. Before I get into my speech, may I say that I will gladly not say a word if the Secretary of State or the Minister intervenes to say that they will proceed with that promise and if they outline the legislative vehicle whereby these powers will be devolved to Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

We are negotiating with the Welsh Government over the use of a transfer of functions order under the 2006 Act.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Secretary of State is telling us that he will introduce a statutory instrument once the negotiations are complete. In that regard, I will not be pressing the matter to a vote. I am glad that it is now on the record that he will keep that promise, which was made to the people of Wales in successive statements in the House by the former Prime Minister. Many people in Wales are slightly confused about why the promise has not been included in the Bill, but that is positive news, so I will cut my speech in half.

I would, however, like to raise an associated point about the way in which the franchise may be altered—or, to put it another way, butchered—by siphoning off the more lucrative routes. The Secretary of State is fully aware that those lucrative routes are very valuable to the franchise. The Welsh Government have to put in a huge subsidy, as I understand it, and £700 million was paid between 2011-12 and 2014-15. If those routes are taken away from the franchise, the public subsidy paid by the people of Wales for that franchise will increase significantly.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I will cover those points, but I have sought to underline the importance of the tests because they are so fundamental to the reserved powers model. Of course, the reservations will be equally fundamental. The hon. Lady mentioned a significant number of them. As I make progress, I will cover many of the points she made and invite her to intervene then.

Amendments 118 and 119, tabled by the main Opposition party, and Plaid Cymru’s amendments 148 and 149 seek to broaden the Assembly’s competence significantly by enabling it to legislate in relation to reserved matters so long as the provision is ancillary to a provision on a devolved matter. These amendments would drive a coach and horses through the key principle underpinning the new model, which is a clear boundary between what is devolved and what is reserved. They would give the Assembly the power to make unfettered changes to reserved matters such as the justice system, which we debated in detail last week, provided only that some connection to a devolved provision was established. What is more, they are simply not needed. We want to ensure that the Assembly can enforce its legislation and make it effective. We provide for this in paragraphs 1 and 2 of new schedule 7B by enabling the Assembly to modify the law on reserved matters. This is suitable to ensure that the Assembly’s devolved provisions can be enforced without compromising the principle of reserved matters.

I turn now to the proposed new schedule 7A to the Government of Wales Act, which sets out the reserved matters, referred to in general in the legislation as the “reservations”. These matters must be seen through the prism of the purpose test. A reservation is a succinct description of the subject area covered. It includes reserved authorities carrying out functions relating to that subject and criminal offences relating to that subject.

The general reservations in part 1 of the new schedule reserve the fundamental tenets of the constitution: the Crown, the civil service, defence and the armed forces, the regulation of political parties, and foreign affairs. As a single legal jurisdiction operates in England and Wales, we also reserve matters such as courts and non-devolved tribunals, judges, and civil and criminal proceedings. However, we have made appropriate exceptions to these reservations to enable the Assembly to exercise devolved functions. For example, the Assembly can confer devolved functions on the courts or provide for appeals from devolved tribunals to reserved tribunals.

Amendment 6, tabled by Plaid Cymru, seeks to modify these core reservations by allowing the Assembly to consolidate the constitutional arrangements for Wales. It surely must be a fundamental principle that the UK’s constitutional arrangements, including Parliament’s authority to devolve its own powers, are reserved. We have a constitutional settlement for Wales, the Government of Wales Act 2006 as amended, and amendment 6 is simply not necessary.

Part 2 lists the specific reservations. We want there to be no doubt where the boundary of the Assembly’s legislative competence lies. The list is lengthy because it is quite specific in its reservations and provides exceptions to those reservations. Previously, in the draft, there were some broad headlines, but the current Bill is far more specific, which necessitates further detail on what is included.

[Jonathan Edwards]

During this afternoon’s debate, the Secretary of State has been challenged on many of the reservations listed in part 2. In the interests of transparency, and before we get to the remaining stages of the Bill, will he commit the Wales Office to publishing a document outlining why each reservation has been made?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Member is aware that I have an open style and am happy to maintain dialogue and work with all opposition parties, as well as with the Welsh Government, in seeking to come to an accommodation. However, hovercrafts, for example, have been highlighted a couple of times. That reservation relates to technical standards and is about a distinct class of transport, such as ships in relation to shipping and planes in relation to aviation. Therefore, although, on the face of it, one might ask what the purpose of a reservation is, very often there are technical issues well beyond that. I am happy to continue a dialogue in that respect, as we continue to do with the Welsh Government.

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[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will know that I am happy to continue open dialogues. As Secretary of State, that is the style I have sought to use, to build on that set by my predecessor. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will want to continue working in such an open and constructive way.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I would like to make further progress, if I may.

A whole host of amendments have been tabled in relation to policing and justice. The St David’s day process found no consensus to devolve the criminal justice system in Wales. The Government gave a clear manifesto commitment that policing and criminal justice will remain reserved. In our first day in Committee last week, I made clear the Government’s commitment to maintain the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. Crime, public order and policing are inextricably linked to the criminal justice system. There already exists an All Wales Criminal Justice Board, which consults fully with the Welsh Government and extends to prison provision. The Welsh Government are also in regular dialogue with the National Offender Management Service about its functions.

Amendment 116, tabled by Plaid Cymru, and amendment 87, tabled by Labour, seek to remove the reservations for late-night entertainment and alcohol licensing respectively. There was much debate within this group surrounding this. The Government consider both subjects to be closely connected to policing and maintaining public order. Given that policing and criminal justice remain reserved matters, late-night entertainment and alcohol licensing should also be reserved under the principle that has been established.

Amendment 155, tabled by Plaid Cymru, seeks to reserve “the Crown Prosecution Service” rather than “prosecutors” in the general reservation on the single legal jurisdiction. There is no intention to prevent the Assembly from continuing to specify devolved prosecutors for devolved offences in the legislation. The reservation of prosecutors would not prevent the Assembly from legislating to, for example, make local authorities in Wales the prosecuting authority for particular devolved offences, as was highlighted by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). I agree, however, with the underlying policy intention of the amendment and will consider further, before Report, whether the reservation of prosecutors should be modified. I am happy to return to this at that stage.

Government amendments 53 to 58, tabled in my name, seek to put Wales in the same position as Scotland in respect of the reservations in C5, which reserves all prohibition and regulation of imports and exports in and out of the United Kingdom. It does, however, allow the Assembly to control movements of certain things, such as plants, animals, foods and fertilisers, for specified purposes. The amendments seek to put the Assembly in the same position as the Scottish Parliament by extending its competence to regulate movement of these things both within Wales and in and out of Wales.

Significant attention has been given to transport reservations, with a number of amendments being tabled by both Plaid Cymru and the Labour party. The transport reservations were subject to close scrutiny when the Bill was at a draft stage, and there is no basis on which to devolve railway services, coastguard services or aspects of road transport, as the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) proposes. It is not what the Silk commission recommended, and my focus has been on delivering powers for a purpose.

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[Jonathan Edwards]

The whole point of devolving APD to Wales is to allow Welsh Ministers to set their own priorities for the aviation industry in Wales. At the end of the day, it will be up to Welsh Ministers to consider the most appropriate APD policy for Wales to maximise revenues from their own public asset. Let us remember that Cardiff airport is owned by the people of Wales. Clearly, increasing footfall at the airport could generate substantial revenues elsewhere, primarily by boosting economic performance across the whole of the economy, especially in the Secretary of State’s own Vale of Glamorgan constituency.

I am not privy to the Cardiff airport’s strategic planning, but my understanding is that the element of APD that the airport is most interested in is long-haul taxation. As I mentioned, the airport has a superb runway that can accommodate transatlantic flights, which Bristol airport cannot. If Cardiff were to develop that angle of its business, that could surely be of use to Bristol airport, if transport links between both airports could be improved. There lies a challenge for the Welsh Government, because our international airport urgently needs public transport upgrades to get people from Cardiff—and indeed Swansea—to and from the airport. The current infrastructure is awful, compared with that of Belfast, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Recent public opinion polls suggest that 78% of Welsh voters agree that APD should be devolved. That does not quite compare with the percentage who support the introduction of Welsh bank notes, but that incredibly high number is still a clear indication of public opinion. It takes a brave politician to ignore opinion poll figures of those proportions.

Furthermore, the National Assembly should have more responsibility for the money it spends. The Secretary of State for Wales himself has said that increasing its taxation responsibilities makes the Assembly “truly accountable” to the people of Wales, so why not include air passenger duty in the list of devolved taxes? Why continue to limit the financial responsibilities of the Welsh Government? Jane Hutt, the former Minister for Finance and Government Business in the Welsh Government, who I am not in the habit of quoting, has said:

“It is…disappointing that the UK Government has decided to continue its procrastination over the devolution of Air Passenger Duty. This discriminatory approach is unacceptable and unjustifiable”.

We have seen during the progress of the Bill that what the Labour Government say in Wales does not necessarily translate into voting behaviour where it counts down here in Westminster. Official Opposition Members might be relieved to hear that I do not intend to press the new clause to a Division, but I will return to the matter on Report. I hope that, in the meantime, the Secretary of State will listen to one of the most important strategic players in his constituency and his country, and I look forward to him bringing forward Government amendments to devolve APD before the Bill completes its progress through the House.

I now turn my attention to new clause 4, which would equalise the situation between Wales and Scotland when it comes to VAT revenues. The Scotland Act 2016 stated that revenues from the first 10 percentage points of the standard VAT rate would be devolved by the 2019-20 financial year. The current UK VAT rate is 20% and half of all the VAT raised in Scotland will be kept in Scotland. It is important to note that the Scottish Government will have no ability to change VAT rates.

Sales taxes in the United States are state taxes, not federal taxes, so different states have different levels of their version of VAT. We propose equalising the situation with Scotland because although EU rules prohibit different sales tax levels within the boundaries of a member state, adopting the Scottish model could pave the way, in a post-Brexit scenario, to devolving VAT in its entirety to Wales, to Scotland and to Northern Ireland. In a post-Brexit UK, it seems clear that significant political and fiscal power will have to be conceded by Westminster unless the post-Brexit vision is an even more lopsided state in which power and wealth are even more concentrated in London and the south-east.

The Scottish model has some incentivising benefits as it would help to galvanise the Welsh Government to boost the spending power of our citizens by basing a job creation strategy around well-paid jobs and seriously getting to grips with our low-wage economy. As page 4 of Cardiff University’s excellent “Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales 2016” report states:

“VAT was the largest source of revenue in Wales (raising £5.2 billion), followed by Income Tax (£4.6 billion) and National Insurance Contributions (£4.0 billion). The composition of revenues in Wales is markedly different from the UK as a whole. Large direct taxes…make up less of a share of total Welsh revenue, while a greater share is raised through indirect taxes”.

The report’s point is that indirect taxes such as VAT generate more revenue in Wales than direct taxes such as income tax. The report also indicates that Welsh tax revenues have grown by 12.3% since 2011, the main component of which was VAT revenues.

As long as we have a Tory UK Government, economic growth will continue to be based around consumer spending. If that is the case, it is all the more important that the people of Wales directly benefit from that growth and from their own spending power. Denying Wales the same powers as Scotland on VAT seems to be a deliberate attempt to undermine revenues for the Welsh Government.

New clause 4 is probing, so I will not be pressing it to a vote at this stage, but I look forward to hearing the UK Government’s justification for why they have not given Wales the same status as Scotland, especially considering the good performance of Wales—for whatever reason—in generating VAT revenues. I may return to this matter during the Bill’s later stages.

Similarly probing are new clauses 8 and 9, which would devolve corporation tax to mirror the situation in Northern Ireland. As a proud Welshman, I want my country to succeed. I desperately want our GDP to increase and to close the gap between the GDPs of Wales and the UK. If that is to happen, we unquestionably have to make Wales a more attractive place to do business. I want to make Wales the most attractive place in the UK to do business, and I hope that the Secretary of State for Wales would want the same for his country.

Most other countries are able to set their own rates of corporation tax. It is a lever with which a national Government can influence their country’s desirability to potential investors, but Wales is restricted from doing so. We are forced to compete with the other UK nations with our hands tied behind our backs. Northern Ireland has a huge competitive advantage over Wales, and we know about the rate in the Republic of Ireland, with which we share a sea border. We cannot build a High Speed 2 for Wales. We cannot electrify our railways and we cannot offer tax incentives. We are constantly forced to come to Westminster with a begging bowl. We are still waiting for even an inch of electrified railway. We are still not getting full Barnett consequentials from HS2, let alone getting our own high-speed rail, and we are once again being told that we cannot use corporation tax as a way of attracting business.

[Alun Cairns]

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s proposal on devolving corporation tax. How would Wales cope with the significant volatility of corporation tax income?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention because it provides a great insight into the Secretary of State’s thinking. If that is his argument on fiscal powers, he should align himself with the Labour party, which opposes Wales having income tax powers for exactly the same reason. This is about whether one believes that the Welsh Government can use such levers effectively to create jobs in our country. That intervention is indicative of the Secretary of State’s mindset.

Given that corporation tax is devolved in Northern Ireland, I hope that the Secretary of State will do his job, stand up for Wales and make it a devolved tax in Wales, as was recommended by the Silk commission’s report.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman will recognise the funding floor introduced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which was a clear commitment and promise delivered by the Government. Of course, the Barnett adjustments need to be considered, and discussions between the Welsh Government and the Treasury and my officials are ongoing. We would like to see progress on those matters as the Bill is scrutinised throughout the parliamentary process. Both Administrations are determined to find a transparent way that will rightly serve the people of Wales and the Welsh and UK taxpayer.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I wish to draw the Secretary of State’s attention to the comments of his colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland on the Scotland Act:

“This is a truly significant day for Scotland. If this Bill completes its parliamentary progress, it will add to the already extensive responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament a range of important new powers. It provides even greater opportunities for the Scottish Government to tailor and deliver Scottish solutions to Scottish issues.”—[Official Report, 23 March 2016; Vol. 607, c. 1683.]

Was the Secretary of State for Scotland right, and if so, why has the Secretary of State for Wales brought forward a Bill that pales into insignificance when compared with the Bill given to the people of Scotland?

[Alun Cairns]

I am somewhat disappointed by the tone the hon. Gentleman is taking. We have developed the Bill through consensus. We have responded to the comments that were made following the publication of the draft Bill, and before that we had the St David’s day agreement, in which his party was an active participant. We have sought to develop political consensus, but ultimately we do not have a uniform approach to devolution. What is right for Scotland is not necessarily right for Northern Ireland or for Wales. Clearly we have different circumstances and needs, and we should respond to those needs by developing appropriate Bills. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will actively participate and seek to improve the Bill through the parliamentary process; I am determined to achieve a Bill that all Members of the House will be at best satisfied with.

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[Alun Cairns]

The basis of this clause has been drawn from the Scotland Act. It would be a matter for the courts to judge in such a situation, but this underlines the principle that Parliament is sovereign in these matters, although we will absolutely respect the rights of the Assembly. That is why we have included a clause stating that we will not “normally” legislate on devolved areas.

The debate on the draft Bill, which was published for pre-legislative scrutiny last autumn, was dominated by justice issues. In particular, it focused on something that was labelled the necessity test, and the inclusion of the test led to calls for a separate jurisdiction. I have listened to those concerns, and this Bill has moved a long way from the draft version and is by general consensus more suitable. The necessity test was believed to set too high a bar, and calls were made for a lower threshold. I have gone further, however, and removed the test entirely when the Assembly modifies the civil and criminal law for devolved purposes. As a consequence, many of the arguments for a separate legal jurisdiction for Wales should have fallen away.

However, I recognise the validity of some of the points raised during pre-legislative scrutiny about the existence of Welsh law. The Bill formally recognises for the first time that a body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers forms part of the law of England and Wales within the England and Wales jurisdiction. The recognition of Welsh law needs distinct arrangements. As a result, I have been working with my right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary to establish an officials-led working group to look at how those administrative arrangements should be improved. The group includes representatives from the Judicial Office and the Welsh Government, and it will take forward its work in parallel with the progress of the Bill through this House and the other place.

The single jurisdiction can readily accommodate a growing body of Welsh law without the need for separation. There are many reasons why a separate jurisdiction would be to the detriment of Wales. As well as the unnecessary upheaval and cost of such a change, the economic and commercial interdependence of the legal profession on both sides of the border means that separation would undermine the success of one of Wales’s fastest growing sectors—the legal profession.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Will the working group be looking at the justice impact assessments mentioned in the Bill, and will it present its report before we have our final vote on the Bill on Third Reading?

[Alun Cairns]

The terms of reference for the working group have been published, and I would expect it to report in the autumn. The justice impact assessment is a matter for the Assembly and for scrutiny by Assembly Members. The principle of having a justice impact assessment is fundamental to proper scrutiny of any mature legislature. With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, we might be able to debate that when I get to that element—as I am about to do now.

Some Members, such as the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), have asked me about the requirement in the Bill for justice impact assessments to accompany Assembly Bills, and I would like to take this opportunity to clarify its purpose a little further. It is only natural for a mature legislature to consider the consequences of its own legislation. The impacts of Assembly Bills are assessed against a range of matters, including, quite rightly, the Welsh language and equalities, but no formal assessment is made of their potential impacts on the justice system, which is vital for its laws to be enforced properly. It is simply common sense that any such matters are considered and such an assessment is made, to help with the efficient delivery of justice services.

The Government committed in the St David’s day agreement to implementing—

[Jonathan Edwards]

This is the key point in relation to these new impacts. Who is going to be making the assessments? I take it that the Minister’s view is that that is a matter for the Welsh Government, but would those assessments at any point lead to a trigger whereby the Ministry of Justice could object to Welsh legislation?

[Alun Cairns]

It is a matter for Assembly Members, and the requirement is that the Standing Orders include a request for a justice impact assessment. No, there will be no veto arising out of the justice impact assessment. Let me give the hon. Gentleman a practical example.

The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 has supporting documents in excess of 30 pages, with 15 lines talking about the justice implications or the consequence thereafter. The principle we are requesting is that full, proper consideration be given to the justice consequences that arise thereafter. That is mature scrutiny, and I pay tribute to the way in which the First Minister responded to the question on the Floor of the Assembly some weeks ago. Rather than a general accommodation with the Standing Orders, we are talking about a specific request for a justice impact assessment.



The Government committed in the St David’s day agreement to implement a clear devolution boundary for Wales. The reserved powers model at the heart of the Bill will make the Welsh devolution settlement clearer by drawing a well-defined boundary between what is reserved and what is devolved. Anything not specifically reserved is devolved to the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers—it does not get clearer than that! The Bill’s pre-legislative scrutiny prompted a wide-ranging discussion on what the future shape and structure of Welsh devolution should be. The list of reservations included in the draft Bill was criticised as being too long. We have listened, and the list in the Bill now contains fewer reservations and I have made the descriptions more accurate. More importantly, there is a clear rationale for reservations that are included. The list of reservations will never be as short as some would like, but clarity requires specificity. The list included in the Bill will be subject to further fine tuning, but I believe that, broadly, we have struck the right balance.

The Bill also clarifies the devolution boundary by defining which public authorities are Wales public authorities—devolved bodies—with all other public authorities being reserved authorities. To add further clarity, the Bill lists those bodies that are currently Wales public authorities, a list we have compiled in consultation with the Welsh Government and the Assembly Commission. Naturally, the consent of the UK Government will be needed if an Assembly Bill seeks to impose or modify the functions of a reserved body. That follows the well-established principle that the Assembly approves through legislative consent motions UK Government legislation that touches devolved areas.

The final key element of a clear settlement is the change we are making to the functions of Welsh Ministers. It is hard to believe that Welsh Ministers have not been able to exercise common-law powers up to now, unlike Ministers of the Crown and Scottish Ministers; the Bill puts the misjudgment of the Government of Wales Act 2006 right. Similarly, the Bill also removes the current restriction on the Assembly being able to modify Minister of the Crown functions in devolved areas. It lists those functions that Ministers of the Crown and Welsh Ministers exercise concurrently or jointly, and the small number of Minister of the Crown functions in devolved areas the Assembly could modify, with the consent of UK Ministers. All remaining Minister of the Crown functions in devolved areas will be transferred by order to the Welsh Ministers.

Taken together, these provisions deliver a settlement that will make it clear whom people in Wales should hold to account—the UK Government or the Welsh Government—for the decisions that affect their daily lives. I would like to inform the House that some minor clarifications have been made to the explanatory notes relating to some of these clauses, and revised copies of the notes are available for Members.

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[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that point, which is always used by the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies)—I am glad to see him in the Chamber, as we have debated this issue many times. However, the reality is that the Severn bridges are the two main supply links into the south Wales economy, so it is clearly in the interests of the Welsh Government to have control over them.

I always endeavour to be helpful in my politics, and when I look at the rate of constitutional change in the UK, it appears that the only way the British state can possibly survive is as a confederal arrangement between its constituent parts. The only reserved matters in that scenario should be those relating to currency, the Head of State, defence, welfare and foreign affairs, although the boat on welfare may have started sailing with the Scotland Act.

The necessity tests have been replaced by so-called justice impact assessments. In response to the Bill, my former academic master, Richard Wyn Jones, from the Welsh Governance Centre, said in the Western Mail:

“I’m afraid this unexpected addition to the Bill suggests the mindset that devised the necessity test is still alive and kicking in Whitehall.”

He went on to say:

“It clearly undermines the UK Government’s claim to respect the National Assembly as a mature democratic institution able to make its own laws without interference.”

He concluded by saying:

“Ultimately the Secretary of State would be able to override a piece of legislation passed by the democratically elected Assembly. It is a mindset which sees the Assembly as a second-class legislature. There is no similar provision at the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament.”

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I will refer to the Secretary of State’s earlier points and let him intervene following that.

Professor Jones makes the further valid point that these impact assessments are not reciprocal, citing the example of the super-prison in Wrexham, where the UK Government took no account of the impact on devolved Welsh public services such as health, social services, education, lifelong learning and skills.

I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments during the debate and the guarantee that the justice impact assessments cannot trigger a UK veto—I accept him at his word. However, we will have to take our own legal advice to ensure that these assessments are not a Trojan horse to stymie the ability of the National Assembly to function fully as a legislative body.

[Alun Cairns]

Let me politely reassure the hon. Gentleman that the justice impact assessments are in absolutely no way considered to be a veto. He referred to the prison in Wrexham—HMP Berwyn. When two mature institutions come to agreements, and one is seeking to encroach on devolved areas or another to encroach on an area that is non-devolved within the UK, the UK Government need a legislative consent motion to take action in Wales. There is a mature arrangement. We need to come to a position where we understand each other, and these mature discussions should take place, rather than one having a right over the other. That is not the area that I want to get to.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am extremely grateful for that intervention by the Secretary of State. His point about the Wrexham super-prison makes our argument for us. That facility has not been created to deal with the custodial needs and requirements of our country. That is partly why we will aim to remove the reservation on policing and prison services during the passage of the Bill.

My other major concern, as my party’s Treasury spokesperson, is the second-class settlement we are being offered in relation to fiscal powers. The Scotland Act 2016, which all Labour and Tory MPs based in Wales voted for, fully devolved air passenger duty and income tax—including, crucially, the tax bands and half of VAT receipts—to Scotland. The Scottish Government will now be responsible for raising over the half the money they use in all devolved expenditure. Yet, as the recent Cardiff University assessment, “Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales 2016”, notes, following the fiscal plans in this Bill, the Welsh Government will be responsible for raising only about 20% of the devolved expenditure for which they are responsible.

If the twin arguments for fiscal devolution are accountability and incentivisation, surely we need more ambition for Wales than what is currently on offer. After all, in essence, we are talking about keeping more tax revenues raised in Wales directly in Wales, as opposed to collecting them in London and sending them back. The Welsh Government should be responsible for raising the money that they spend. That is a very valuable principle in politics. We will seek to amend this Bill and the forthcoming Finance Bill to secure parity for Wales with Scotland, and challenge Labour and Conservative Members who supported these powers for Scotland on why they oppose them for Wales.

The other issue in relation to tax powers that must be addressed if the measure is to receive our support is the fiscal framework to accompany tax devolution. As we have seen with the debate surrounding the Barnett formula, words such as “fairness” and “non-detriment” are extremely opaque and open to interpretation. The Bill will put in place a Barnett floor to stop further funding convergence, but let us be clear that that is not the same as “fair”. A fair settlement would surely, at the very least, peg Welsh funding at the Scottish level, especially since that is what Labour and Tory Members of Parliament from Wales voted for for Scotland. I will let them explain to the people of Wales why they think that Wales deserves less support through public funding per head than Scotland.

Returning to the fiscal framework, I am glad that there seems to be genuine good will around a non-detriment principle, but that will need to be clearly outlined before we finally vote on the Bill. I would expect the Treasury, at the very least, to publish its recommendations in an official statement to the House during our proceedings on the Bill because Members of Parliament will otherwise be voting blind on the consequences of the tax proposals. I say this as a strong supporter of devolving job-creating levers to Wales, as I outlined earlier. However, neither I nor my colleagues will support the Bill if the UK Government intend to push a straightforward indexed deduction method. I note the significant concessions gained by the SNP Scottish Government on this issue, so I would hope that the Labour Government in Wales and the Wales Office here will be pushing hard for a suitable deduction method for Wales.

This vital issue is even more complicated than my favourite topic of Barnett consequentials, so we must get it right. We need a formula that will reflect the fact that the population of Wales, and hence our tax base, will grow more slowly than the UK average. We cannot be left in a position whereby a successful fiscal policy in Wales leaves us standing still in terms of Welsh revenues. Incentivisation can work only if the Welsh Exchequer is not at a loss before the process starts. Scotland has once again achieved a fair settlement, and so must Wales. It would be far easier to come up with a fair framework if we were debating full income tax powers similar to those awarded to Scotland—that is, full devolution of the bands and thresholds.

If the other main aim of fiscal devolution is to increase the political accountability of the Welsh Government, the sharing arrangement envisaged for income tax would continue to allow them to pass the buck. The shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), said that full devolution of income tax powers under the Scotland Act would stop the Scottish Government playing the politics of grievance. If Wales has a sharing arrangement, the politics of grievance will continue. In the interests of accountability, incentivisation and, critically, transparency, the UK Government need to revise their plans and fully devolve income tax powers to Wales.

This March, in an act of blatant electioneering, the previous Welsh Labour Government published an alternative Wales Bill that called for a separate legal system for Wales and the devolution of policing. I look forward to the Labour Opposition here tabling such amendments to the Bill. If they do, I will support them with vigour, but if they do not, Plaid Cymru will do so and the people of Wales will be able to judge for themselves whether the First Minister has any influence over his bosses here in Westminster.

In conclusion, I would like to highlight the policy areas devolved to Scotland that are not included in this Bill, which include legal jurisdiction, policing, prisons, probation, criminal justice, full income tax, VAT sharing arrangements, air passenger duty, welfare and employment, consumer advocacy and advice, gaming mechanisms, full energy powers and rail franchising of passenger services, to name but a few. As I have said before, it will be up to our political opponents to explain why they voted for those powers for Scotland, but are opposed to them for Wales.

That brings me to the forthcoming parliamentary boundary review, which has not been mentioned at all during the debate, but will reduce Welsh representation in this place to 29 Members. That means a loss of more than a quarter of Welsh seats in the House of Commons.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 25th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

6. What the Government’s plans are for the future of S4C.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I was delighted to visit S4C last week to see at first hand the exciting developments at the channel, including the launch of its HD service in time for the European championship. I am sure we all wish Chris Coleman and the boys well.

[Jonathan Edwards]

What assurances can the Secretary of State give us that the UK Government’s review of S4C will not be compromised, as it will be conducted after the BBC’s charter review? Can he confirm that all options will be on the table, including securing an independent financial stream for S4C funded from revenues raised for public service broadcasting, and from direct Government support?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will recognise that a fundamental principle is operational and editorial independence. The BBC White Paper offers protection and support for S4C, but, of course, there is a review ongoing that will look at all these matters, such as governance and financing, in order to secure a long-term future for the channel. [Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend speaks with authority and knowledge of this issue. Devolution to north Wales from what is seen in many quarters as the remoteness of Cardiff Bay is essential. The community groups whom I met in north Wales, whether they were from the north-west, from the border or from the English side of the boundary, wanted the growth deal to work on a cross-border basis, and I am determined to explore that possibility in the interests of the region.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

One of the most effective ways of rebalancing the economy is to empower the Welsh Government by giving them the necessary job creation levers, which is why I welcome moves to increase fiscal empowerment for Wales. If fiscal devolution is to work, however, it must be facilitated by the provision of a genuinely no-detriment fiscal framework. The SNP Scottish Government have negotiated such a framework for their country. What is the Secretary of State’s preferred deduction method for Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the plans in the draft Wales Bill for the granting of income tax-varying powers for the Welsh Government. We want Wales to be a low-tax economy. Of course, mechanisms will need to be introduced to protect Welsh interests. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that I met the Chief Secretary to the Treasury earlier this week to discuss early proposals for such mechanisms, and we are happy to engage in further such discussions.

Commonwealth Games: Wales

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 16th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) for not only the way in which he introduced the debate, but his recognition of the role that Cardiff can play in supporting the whole of Wales. I am also grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for enabling the debate to take place in the same week as Commonwealth Day, because it presents a great opportunity to discuss how a Welsh bid for the Commonwealth games could once more showcase Wales to the world and provide a welcome boost to our economy.

As my hon. Friend mentioned, what a day this has been. It is shaping up to be a fantastic week for Wales. I was delighted yesterday that we signed a £1.2 billion city region deal for Cardiff, a transformational opportunity, which the UK and Welsh Governments, along with local authorities, have worked together for some time to create. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for spearheading the campaign from the outset. There is no stronger champion of the city deal and its benefits for Cardiff. The Budget has of course delivered some significant outcomes for Wales. The north Wales growth deal offers great prospects for north Wales, and the Swansea bay city deal offers excellent opportunities. The changes to the Severn tolls demonstrate that Wales is open not only to business, but to tourists. Dare I say that Wales is also open to major sporting events? It is good to see the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden), who has championed the need for changes to the Severn tolls for some time.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North will know that the Wales Office hosted a reception in January to celebrate Welsh sporting success, and I said then that I would like Wales to develop a bid for the 2026 Commonwealth games. That remains my ambition, so I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss that further today and am grateful to see cross-party and even cross-nation support from across the United Kingdom.

Wales is well known for its sporting achievements. We achieved our best result in history at the 2014 Commonwealth games, finishing 13th in the overall medal table having secured 36 medals. We know that Wales can punch well above its weight. For example, we develop 6.5% of the UK’s Olympic and Paralympic athletes, despite having under 5% of the UK’s population. We are committed to showing our continued support for Welsh elite athletes, and it is a priority of this Government to provide the right conditions to produce the sports stars that will continue to shine at such events in the future.

Bringing the Commonwealth games to Wales would put us on the world stage once again, just like when we hosted the NATO conference in 2014, which was referred to by Opposition Members and my hon. Friend. We also hosted Olympic events as part of London 2012 and hosted the Ryder cup in 2010. At the 2012 Olympic games, the world saw what we have always known: the UK is an unbeatable venue for world-class sporting events. The world also saw what Wales has to offer when we hosted the very first event—Great Britain’s women took on New Zealand in the football competition in Cardiff.

We know that as well as reinforcing the Wales brand, sport can make huge economic contributions to Wales. Much has been said about how the Principality stadium is among the best stadiums, and it generates more than £130 million a year for the Welsh economy and sustains more than 2,500 jobs. In its first decade, the then Millennium stadium boosted the Welsh economy by more than £1 billion. The 2015 rugby world cup played a significant part in boosting the economy of south-east Wales. Cricket is another sport that we have managed to celebrate and derive significant economic success from, with the Ashes at Sophia Gardens giving a £19 million boost to the capital region economy in one year.

Wales is continuing to grow in this area, as it can look forward to hosting an exciting range of sporting events in the next few years, some of which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North. These include: the world half-marathon championships; the UEFA champions league final; velothon Wales; and the international Snowdon race. But there is no reason why we should cap our ambitions at just those events. With Wales riding high on a sporting wave of success, there is surely no better time to identify how we can attract more global sporting occasions to our shores—occasions such as the Commonwealth games.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Minister mentioned the national rugby stadium in his remarks. Although it is probably the best stadium in the world, UEFA was not going to allow us to hold a champions league final in that stadium because Cardiff airport is not designated as being up to a sufficient standard. One way of moving forward on that airport would be by devolving airport duty tax, especially in respect of long haul flights, to allow the airport to develop. Let the UK Government show some ambition and devolve that tax.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. gentleman knows that the Treasury is actively looking at that area of policy, but this is a debate about the Commonwealth games and Cardiff airport will rightly play its role in hosting the visitors from the nations involved in the champions league final. As the airport lies in my constituency, I certainly hope to play a part in welcoming some of those superstars from around Europe and elsewhere when they visit Cardiff and Wales.

The opportunities to host such events in Wales should know no bounds. Not only can they pump millions of pounds into our economy and create thousands of jobs, but they can leave a lasting legacy and inspire youngsters from every corner of Wales to get hooked on sport. The 2014 Commonwealth games were the largest multi-sport event ever held in Scotland and a spectacular display of world-class sporting success. The enthusiasm of competitors and the public, the excellent organisation and of course the economic contribution came together to ensure lasting legacy from those 11 days of sport. From the Scottish Government and Glasgow City Council’s capital investment of about £425 million, topped up with ticket sales and revenue from commercial sources totalling £118 million, came a return of £740 million to boost the economy of Scotland and of Glasgow in particular. Hosting such a games can therefore be seen as an investment. That return included £390 million for Glasgow’s economy, and support for an average of 2,100 jobs each year between 2007 and 2014, including 1,200, on average, in Glasgow. The games attracted 690,000 unique visitors, whose net spending contributed £73 million to the economy over those 11 days alone.

Those figures demonstrate the investment and the opportunity; this is something Wales can hope to emulate. A bid team would, however, rightly need to look at the figures in more detail. Let us be clear about the challenges ahead of us. We have some of the best facilities. We have the Wales national velodrome in Newport and the national pool in Swansea. We have no shortage of mountains in Snowdonia for mountain biking. We have fantastic facilities in Bala for canoeing. Those facilities demonstrate that a bid from Cardiff could really be a bid from Wales, which we would welcome, but they are widely spread and we need to take that into account. Additional facilities are also needed. One pool is insufficient, so we would need a practice pool. One velodrome is insufficient and it will be 20 years old by the time of the games, so we need practice and warm-up facilities. That demonstrates the planning and construction challenges that exist. Over the next week or so, I am meeting one of the individuals who was responsible for planning the 2012 games in London to establish what Wales would practically need to achieve.

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for emphasising that point. The 115% rate of Barnett consequentials is extremely important—it entirely meets the criteria in the Holtham demands—but one would almost think that Labour and Plaid Cymru Members were disappointed that we had actually delivered on something that they had been calling for. They would far rather be shouting from the sidelines, calling for it in the hope that we would not deliver it. When we respond in a positive way and deliver for the people of Wales, there is complete silence.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Obviously the Barnett formula is a step forward, but does this not underline the danger of using opaque terms such as “fairness” and “non-detriment”? In my view, a fair funding settlement should be based on need rather than serving to prevent further injustice. As the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) pointed out, the key aspect of non-detriment is the fiscal framework. Has the Minister any idea of the preferred index for which the Welsh Labour Government are arguing with the Treasury? It is clear that different mechanisms will have vastly different outcomes.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman has made some important points. It is, of course, up to the Labour party to explain its position. All I know is that Labour called for this for decades, we responded within a year, and since then there has been complete silence on the Opposition Benches.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy was extremely upbeat about Wales’s economic prospects. It is true that, since 2010, the number of people in work has risen by 89,000, unemployment has fallen by 35%, the youth claimant count has fallen by 61%, and Wales has experienced faster growth per head than any other nation or region of the United Kingdom outside London. The hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees) spoke of the importance of getting people into work. This is action, and this is where it is happening.

We have been getting behind Welsh businesses, and there are 22,000 more small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales than there were in 2010. The hon. Member for Aberavon mentioned the steel sector. I know that he spoke to the Secretary of State and the Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise earlier today about the issues facing the steel industry and, in particular, the communities around Port Talbot, but I hope he will recognise that the Government have gone a long way towards meeting the five asks from the steel industry.

One of those asks was a cut in business rates, which were mentioned by some Opposition Members. That is a devolved matter, and something that the Welsh Government could do. The energy-intensive industry compensation package has been delivered, as has the provision of more time in which to comply with the EU’s industrial emissions directive. As for EU-level action on anti-dumping, the UK Government are leading the pressure that is being exerted in Brussels. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that, along with a range of other measures that we have taken.

Spending Review and Autumn Statement: Wales

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship once again. I thank the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees) for securing this debate on the Government’s spending review and autumn statement. It is an opportunity to try to answer many of the questions that have been put, and to clarify the great opportunities that the autumn statement brings for our nation.

The Chancellor set out in the spending review and the autumn statement how the Government will deliver economic security, national security and opportunity for Welsh families. In Wales, the Government’s economic plan will build on the improvements made during the last Parliament. Since 2010, only London has grown more per head than Wales; unemployment in Wales has fallen by 26% since 2010; and in the last year alone, employment in Wales grew by more than 43,000. This investment continues to be made in this Parliament. Hopefully Labour Members will agree that the increase in capital funding for the Welsh Government—an increase of more than £900 million, or 16% in real terms, over five years—will support investment projects that matter to Wales and the Welsh economy.

It is interesting that the hon. Member for Neath focused on revenue expenditure, and at the close of her speech she talked about the lack of infrastructure investment. A 16% increase in capital spending certainly allows any infrastructure deficiency to be fixed by the Welsh Government. I suggest that all Members focus their attention on delivery, including the delivery by the Welsh Government of many projects, such as the M4 relief road, the electrification of valleys lines and other capital projects around Wales. When the hon. Lady’s predecessor, Peter Hain, was the Member for Neath, he cancelled the M4 relief road back in 1997. It is hard to believe that despite there being a Labour Administration in Cardiff Bay since 1999, we are still debating the same project, which is vital for the prosperity of Wales, given the commercial opportunities that it would create.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way, and his reply will be very useful to me as somebody who represents the communities in the west of our country. When the borrowing powers were awarded to the Welsh Government, was there a caveat that enhanced borrowing powers would only become available if the money was invested in the M4 relief road, or has that decision been made by the Labour Members in the Welsh Government independently?

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman with further details. I can confirm now that the Welsh Government’s power to borrow up to £500 million for capital spending was initially due to start wholesale in 2018. The UK Government recognise that those powers are integral to the delivery of the M4 relief road, so early access to the borrowing powers was facilitated. The hon. Gentleman will know that that happened some years ago, but we are yet to see those borrowing powers being exercised to deliver that vital road project.

The hon. Gentleman will also know that during the recent rugby world cup, many demands and calls were made for that relief road. That is why, as I have pointed out, it was sad that that project was cancelled in 1997, following the previous Government’s decision to deliver that road.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes a constructive point. There is a need to develop a project board in north Wales that brings in the Welsh Government, potential European funding and Department for Transport support to develop the best possible, strongest case.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

6. What plans he has for the future of air police services in the Dyfed Powys area; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The National Police Air Service plays an important role in keeping the people of England and Wales safe. Operational capability decisions regarding the provision of police air support remain the responsibility of the strategic board.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Maps produced by NPAS show that about half of the Dyfed Powys police force area will fall within 30 minutes’ flying time from a helicopter base, despite NPAS wanting to reach 90% of the population of Wales and England within 20 minutes. Is the Minister content with this extension of response times and with the fact that parts of Dyfed Powys will still not be reachable even within the extended 30-minute timescale?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman has a strong record in scrutinising such changes—the Westminster Hall debate just last week was testimony to that—but I also pay tribute to the police and crime commissioner, who is seeking to improve cover and save money at the same time. Any money saved, of course, will create an opportunity to support more officers on the beat.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Anyone looking at the proposed NPAS division will come to the conclusion that the residents of Dyfed Powys will receive a second-class service compared with the dedicated police helicopter service currently enjoyed. Considering that the commissioner is powerless to act, will the Minister join me in calling on the Home Office to hold an urgent review of the situation in Wales, and Dyfed Powys in particular, as it is doing in the north-east of England?

[Alun Cairns]

I encourage the hon. Gentleman to meet the police and crime commissioner, who has said he is more than happy to meet him to discuss such issues. There is an opportunity, however, not only to save money but to improve cover. At the moment, the station he talks about operates limited hours, whereas the NPAS proposals would operate 24-hour cover and also provide access to more helicopters and added resilience.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about funding, and there have been many debates in the Chamber about the funding of the NHS in England and in Wales. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) once said, Aneurin Bevan would turn in his grave if he thought that a Welsh Labour Government were cutting the NHS budget while a Conservative Government in Westminster were growing the NHS budget.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

7. What discussions he has had with the National Police Air Service on the provision of helicopter services within Dyfed Powys police force area.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

As a police-led initiative, it is for the National Police Air Service Strategic Board to develop the operating and financial models to meet the needs of all forces throughout Wales and England.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Dyfed Powys helicopter base at Pembrey is a state-of-the-art facility that opened only in 2010, at a cost of £2 million to the residents of the force area. Last month the newly created National Police Air Service reneged on an agreement made only last November to preserve that base. Dedicated helicopter capacity is vital to policing in the Dyfed Powys area. On Monday, for example, the helicopter saved the life of an injured man at the LNG facility in Pembrokeshire, transporting him to Heath in Cardiff. Will the Minister raise that issue with the Home Secretary and NPAS, and will he meet me to discuss the concerns of the people of west Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and I pay tribute to the police and crime commissioner, Chris Salmon, for his work on that. He has an agreement in place that extends access to the helicopter service from 12 to 24 hours, with an 85% priority recall within 20 minutes. That is delivering more for less money. [Interruption.]

Employment in Wales

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman points back to 1997, but I can speak only about the time since 2010, when this Administration came to power. However, I remind him of what I said before: in 1997, Wales was not the poorest part of the UK but, sadly, by 2010 it was. That happened under both a Labour UK Government and a Labour Welsh Assembly Government. Thirteen years of Labour Administrations in Wales between 1997 and 2010 left Wales as the poorest part of the UK.

On a positive note, I hope that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the fall in unemployment in his constituency since this Administration came to power. The picture is similar for youth unemployment in the Vale of Clywd; it went up by 82% under Labour, but since 2010 it has come down by a third. Why does he not recognise the positive steps that the Government have taken in that regard, and why is he not congratulating the businesses in his constituency that are creating these jobs and employment opportunities for his constituents?

It was a privilege to visit Clogau Gold in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency just a short time ago. It is expanding, exporting, and creating wealth and employment locally in the Vale of Clywd. I regret how the hon. Gentleman is talking down his own area; that is hardly creating the mood to attract investment and to encourage companies such as Clogau Gold to continue to spend money on investing, exporting and creating yet more wealth.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Minister talks of the “long-term economic plan”, but have not the deficit reduction targets of his Government been missed by a country mile? One of the major reasons for that is that the jobs being created are low-wage in nature, which means they do not generate the revenues the Treasury was expecting.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point; we need to recognise the context in terms of deficit reduction. Given that we had been so over-dependent on the eurozone as our export market and that the eurozone went into near-meltdown, naturally that hit the Welsh economy disproportionately harder than we would have liked. That is why the long-term economic plan aims at growing exports, such as those of Clogau Gold in the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd’s constituency, well beyond Europe—to the middle east, to the far east and to the fast-developing economies of Brazil, Russia, India and China. Excellent progress has been made in that regard.

Would I have liked the deficit to have been cut further? Of course I would. However, the process is about achieving a balance between reducing the deficit and creating wealth and employment. The Government’s record is positive in that respect. We need to remember that last year the UK was the fastest growing economy in the G7, and that Wales is the second fastest growing part of the UK. We are absolutely up there at the top; we need to recognise and celebrate that, rather than hearing the arguments that we have heard from Opposition Members. It is in their interests to talk Wales down, creating more dependency and trying to create a sort of depth of Labour voters to look to Labour for help rather than looking to the private sector for wealth as well as opportunity creation and generation.

Overall, the picture throughout the whole of Wales is positive, just as it is in the Vale of Clwyd. I could highlight more statistics about north Wales and the south Wales valleys, but the reality is that long-term unemployment is falling and the Work programme is having a major effect. Jobs Growth Wales has a part to play, but we must remember that the independent assessment of Jobs Growth Wales highlighted that 73% of the people who found jobs through it would have found jobs elsewhere.

Let us pool our ideas and resources, to try to get people off welfare and into work through the positive culture of cutting tax, growing the economy and reducing unemployment, in exactly the way that the Government have done.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is somewhat selective in the data he shares. I am proud of the infrastructure investment record of this Government; he failed to mention the north Wales prison and the Halton curve, as well as the investment across the whole of Wales, not only in the north.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In recent months, I have been working with the communities of Salem, Cwmdu, Talley and Pumsaint, which have been without landline provision while waiting for damaged lines to be repaired. Communication problems have been exacerbated by a lack of mobile coverage, so will the Minister ensure that mobile not spots in Carmarthenshire benefit from the recently announced investment in mobile infrastructure?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that important issue. Openreach and British Telecom need to get on top of replacing those lines when they fall because of adverse weather. Let me also congratulate the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the innovation he is showing in trying to close those not spots by using both private money and the mobile infrastructure plan, which will make a major difference in these areas.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I am not familiar with that organisation, so it would not be right for me to endorse its activities at this stage. Clearly, however, any activity that encourages people who are eligible to vote to do so is broadly positive, and I would encourage the Welsh Government, the Assembly and the UK Administration to engage with a range of organisations and bodies to support that aim further.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Minister is right to say that the referendum in Scotland reinvigorated the political process there, but that is because it was on a definitive issue. The proposed referendum for Wales is on a very technical point—the partial income tax arrangement—and is it not a danger that that is hardly going to excite the masses? Does that indicate that if we are to have another referendum in Wales, it has to be on something meaningful which is going to alter radically the devolution settlement?

[Alun Cairns]

We spent the earlier part of this debate discussing Lords amendments relating to the referendum, and I believed that the hon. Gentleman, in his usual positive way, as well as Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members, thought that the referendum on income tax varying powers would be definitive. It gives a great opportunity for political parties to sell the great prospect that lower taxes could bring to Wales, and the resulting wealth-creating opportunities.

[Jonathan Edwards]

My point is that if we are to have a referendum, it needs to be on a point of principle, and the principle of fiscal devolution has been conceded already in the Wales Bill with the devolution of the minor taxes.

[Alun Cairns]

I am not sure where this is going, but I accept that the engagement of young people is exceptionally important. The purpose of this Lords amendment is to devolve the power for the referendum to the Welsh Assembly, and it can therefore make judgments accordingly.

Welfare Reform (Welsh Valleys)

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns]

With credit to the right hon. Lady, who has been a strong champion of constituents with disabled rights for many years and has gained respect throughout the House, I underline the comments made at the time by Disability Wales that Remploy and the segregation of disabled employees was something for the last century rather than this century. It wants the mainstreaming of disabled people. Disability Wales clearly recognises and champions that.

[Jonathan Edwards]

On universal credit, is it not the case, as the “Dispatches” programme highlighted last month, that the roll-out is in complete chaos and is a shambles, and that Jobcentre Plus is unable to deal with the demands of the roll-out set by the Department?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will know that, in Wales, Shotton in Flintshire is where universal credit has been rolled out. The response has been remarkable in incentivising people into work. Some 75% have responded positively and said that they are now in a better position to find work as a result of universal credit than they were under the previous system.

In the minute remaining, I ask Opposition Members for support, because there is a responsibility on all MPs. Reference was made to council cuts and I underline the fact that council taxes in Wales rose when there had broadly been a freeze in England. We need to draw attention to that. Local authorities must keep their bills as low as possible.

Housing benefit has been considered and discussed. Only three local authorities in Wales applied for additional discretionary housing payments. Caerphilly was one, so I give recognition and credit to Caerphilly. If housing benefit and the spare room subsidy are such an issue, why did the other 19 local authorities in Wales not make an application for the additional funding that was available? I hope that the hon. Member for Caerphilly would support that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will look positively at his suggestion and will happily meet him to discuss the matter further. He is right about the importance of the creative industries in Wales. He might be interested in the launch of the Cardiff internet exchange, which took place last week, and the launch of Cardiff local television.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

11. What assessment he has made of difficulties facing the agricultural sector in Wales.

Wales Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

Well, that is the hon. Gentleman’s position. But if the Labour party’s position were to hold true in Wales, there would be a uniform business rate across the 22 Welsh local authorities. There seems to be a slight misunderstanding in Labour’s position.

[Alun Cairns]

Extending that logic beyond business rates, the same would apply to council tax rates. We have seen a 12% increase in council taxes in Wales since 2010, whereas there has been a broad freeze here in England.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. He says that there are 22 local authorities in Wales, all with fiscal powers to change council tax rates and non-domestic rates. The Labour party does not seem to think that is a problem in Wales in terms of tax competition.

In my opening remarks in Committee, I also said that events in Scotland would supersede the second part of the Silk commission’s work and probably this Bill. Although it might appear that I have fortune-telling abilities, I reassure you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I have yet to acquire such powers. Earlier this month, the Tory Strathclyde commission recommended that in the increasingly unlikely event of a no vote in Scotland in September, the Scottish Government should be given full income tax powers, and powers over VAT and the welfare system. The proposed new powers would make the Scottish Government responsible for gathering 40% of the money they spend. Crucially for this Secretary of State and this Bill, the Prime Minister has fully backed the commission’s proposals and promised to include them in the Conservative manifesto for next year’s general election. Contrary to the Minister’s remarks, the Prime Minister said that there was no reason why these powers should not be transferred to Scotland after the general election. Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Conservative party in Scotland, has said that this was going to be in its 2015 manifesto. Therefore, Treasury Ministers’ revelations might be revealing in terms of the debate in Scotland over the next few weeks.

The Secretary of State finds himself in an uncomfortable position, as this Bill represents the Tory offer for Wales. The people of our country can easily compare and contrast what is on offer for Wales with what is on offer for Scotland. Furthermore, the BBC is reporting that all three Westminster parties are pledging an agreement of joint travel, promising more powers for Scotland. Yet, this Bill does not even take us in Wales to where Scotland is now. Wales is not a second-class nation and there is no more powerful message in Welsh politics than equality with Scotland. This Bill is far from being a settlement that will last a generation; if the Tories want to survive in Wales next year, this Bill is unlikely to make it past the Lords in the autumn.

Only last week, none other than the Financial Times stated in its editorial that the UK should move to a federal model, noting that

“the status quo is not an option.”

It added that Wales should be included in proposals for full fiscal and policy autonomy. Today, we will endeavour to put forward amendments that will strengthen the Bill considerably. As the Westminster parties have decided to torpedo the Silk commission, we will also put forward amendments that go beyond its recommendations and reflect the rapid change of the constitutional debate within these isles. We will seek to divide the House on our later amendments in the next group, so that the people of Wales can contrast Plaid Cymru’s ambition for Wales with the apathy of the Westminster parties.

First, however, I will speak to our amendment 9, which is a straightforward, probing amendment. It would make the Welsh Government responsible for 100% of the income tax revenue gathered in Wales, rather than having the meagre 10%-90% split income tax-sharing arrangement on offer in this Bill. My Plaid Cymru colleagues and I have already tried to maintain the integrity of the original cross-party Silk commission recommendations. We tabled relevant amendments to the Bill in Committee, but they were either voted down or abstained on by Labour MPs who would not support what their colleagues in the National Assembly had been saying.

I mentioned the fact that the Tory Strathclyde commission has reported its conclusions. It recommended 100% devolution of income tax to Scotland. The report was fully endorsed at the highest levels of the Conservative party, with the Prime Minister himself giving it his full backing and saying that its recommendations would be included in the Conservative manifesto at the next UK general election. I need not point out to the Secretary of State, therefore, that what his party is offering to Scotland reveals what is on offer here to be completely behind the times.

Future of the BBC

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Monday 21st October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising those points, and I hope the BBC will actively look at such innovations as it moves forward. It needs to be more responsive and adaptable, and that model may well carry favour.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Does he agree with the leader of his party in the National Assembly who believes the BBC in Wales should be accountable to the National Assembly? Public opinion in Wales, too, is overwhelmingly in favour of broadcasting being devolved to the National Assembly for Wales, and that is also advocated by the Silk commission.

[Alun Cairns]

I certainly do not agree that broadcasting should be devolved—I do not agree with that pick-and-mix approach—but I do think all contributions on the question of how to make the BBC more transparent and accountable are helpful.

S4C

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 31st January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

Thank you for chairing this debate, Sir Alan; it is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I extend my appreciation to the Backbench Business Committee for responding positively to my request for this debate. Its members, like all Members here, recognise the importance of S4C.

The purpose of this debate is to recognise and underline the important role that S4C has played in Wales over the past 30 years, but I also want to look forward to how the channel can develop and respond to changing needs in the new media age. This is also an opportunity to seek assurances from the Minister about his Department’s continued role in supporting and funding the channel.

It is hard to recall how broadcasting in Wales looked before S4C started transmitting in 1982. I can just about remember when Welsh language programmes used to appear on the BBC and ITV. They irritated non-Welsh speakers and could hardly meet the demand of those who wanted to watch Welsh language programmes. “Pobol y Cwm”, “Heddiw” and “Fo a Fe” are just three of the programmes I remember best. Although “Pobol y Cwm” remains with us, it has changed significantly and holds the record for being the BBC’s longest-running soap opera. It is interesting to note that the first Welsh-language broadcast was in 1923, when Mostyn Thomas sang “Dafydd y Garreg Wen” on the radio.

S4C was born of the Broadcasting Act 1980, which established Channel 4 across England, Scotland and Northern Ireland and S4C in Wales. Before that time, there was some controversy. We should pay tribute to two people who played key roles in securing the Welsh channel. The first was the former Plaid Cymru MP Gwynfor Evans, who campaigned tirelessly; the other was Wyn Roberts, then MP for Conwy and now known as Lord Roberts. His influence as a Welsh Office Minister was key in encouraging Margaret Thatcher and Willie Whitelaw to agree to the channel.

Over the past 30 years, S4C has boasted a host of nominations and awards, including numerous BAFTAs. “Hedd Wyn” and “Solomon a Gaenor” were nominated for Oscars in the best foreign-language film category, along with several Emmys and New York film festival awards. S4C has an excellent reputation for animation; “Superted”, one of its first programmes, broadcast in 1982, became the first ever British animation series to be broadcast by Disney. I could go on and on.

Those awards not only demonstrate the channel’s cultural and artistic influence but underline its economic role. Films and programmes of such calibre have naturally created demand from international broadcasters. I could highlight several examples, but one of the most notable is “Jesus: The Miracle Maker”, seen in the cinema and on television by some 40 million people, including two peak-time viewings on the ABC network in the US.

The fallout from such success and Government spend has been the creation and development of a broadcast industry. Wales has 40 independent television companies, some of which have become significant UK players and are expanding internationally. Two obvious examples are Boom Pictures, which developed from Boomerang and is in the news today because of its deal with MainStreet Pictures, and Tinopolis, which bought Mentorn Media and Sunset and Vine.

Other notable companies winning commissions from UK networks are Rondo, Green Bay, Cwmni Da and many others. Their main activities are in Wales, where they create employment and wealth for the UK economy.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

What does the hon. Gentleman think the state of the creative industries in Wales would be if there had not been an S4C?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman might be familiar with the Hargreaves report, which said that it is unlikely that there would be an independent television industry in Wales if not for S4C. The economic impact now adds between £80 million and £90 million to the economy. Although that is positive, it needs to develop further with a multiplier effect; I will return to that a little later. I note that every one of S4C’s chairmen and chief executives have contributed significantly to that success and provided excellent leadership over the years.

Digitisation created new opportunities, but also caused the channel some difficulties. S4C established its digital channel in 1998, changing the landscape significantly. Rather than broadcasting a limited number of hours of Welsh programming and taking the remaining feed from Channel 4, S4C Digital started broadcasting Welsh-language programmes all day long. Although there was a change in the funding formula, budgets naturally became tighter with increased demand for output. Increased viewer choice also had a fallout on viewer numbers. Depending on how we measure the channel’s success, audience numbers would naturally have been squeezed. Recent changes in viewing patterns to online, on-demand, satellite, mobile and other innovative formats have made Broadcasters’ Audience Research Board data less reliable.

Some politicians and leading individuals have sought to exploit the need for changes in the running of S4C for their own ends. Just over two years ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) held a debate on the channel here in Westminster Hall, after the Minister first proposed to change the predominant funding source from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to the BBC. That debate was exploited to the full, despite assurances and guarantees offered by the Minister and the Secretary of State at the time. Questions were asked about operational independence and commissioning guarantees to independent companies. Despite the commitments offered by Ministers to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy and me, the critics continued to be negative and to use the channel as a political stick, creating uncertainty and undermining confidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I remind the hon. Gentleman how packed Westminster Hall was on that occasion. People who had never shown any interest in the channel came merely to use it as a political stick, rather than listening to the reassurances given by the Secretary of State and the Minister, which have now been realised in the agreement signed earlier this week. Until then, the channel had avoided being used for political purposes. I hope that it can return to that state of consensus on how it is supported. That is the best way to secure its long-term future. This week, those guarantees from the Government have become reality. I was pleased that the BBC Trust and the chairman of S4C approved their operating agreement. It is excellent news and exactly meets the Minister’s commitments. It satisfies the demands of the Welsh public, the industry, S4C and the BBC.

Some points in the agreement are still open to interpretation. They relate to powers to intervene, which lie with the trust rather than the corporation, and extreme circumstances in which the BBC could withdraw funding. It is important to emphasise that interpretation of “the BBC” in that document should refer to the BBC Trust, and that there is an expectation that the BBC Trust would consult Ministers and others well before getting into a position to withhold funding.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. The agreement is testament to the hard work of the chair of the S4C authority and the commissioner for Wales of the BBC. They seem to have managed to square a circle. Does he share my concern, however, that the agreement might be problematic if we had a commissioner for Wales on the BBC Trust who was hostile to Welsh-language broadcasting?

[Alun Cairns]

I refer to the point I have already made. I pay tribute to the people the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, but the agreement follows the commitment and guarantees that were given by the Secretary of State and the Minister at the time of the previous debate. It brings those commitments into reality, and I absolutely take confidence in the document and in the comments made by the chairman of S4C, its chief executive and the chairman of the BBC Trust. I absolutely accept those comments. That is why I wanted to clarify today the small points that are down to interpretation. It comes down to the matter of the BBC Trust, and there is a long process before the BBC would ever get to a position of withholding funding.

With those doubts resolved, we are left with the challenges and opportunities for the future. We are already seeing the benefits of closer working with the BBC. There is on-demand provision through iPlayer and Clic, where common platforms provide opportunities for savings, and some central services can be reorganised to save more money. Such joint working, however, should not be at the cost of commissioning from the independent sector. In fact, money saved through joint working should be able to increase resources available for commissioning.

Commissioning programmes to be made in both English and Welsh makes good sense, and it opens the door to international markets.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

That is clearly not the situation, as I will seek to demonstrate in the next few minutes.

The starting point of any Budget has to be the scale of the national debt, and the debate must take into account the legacy of the deficit that has been inherited, the scale of public spending, and the projections that can be made in a situation that is uncertain because of the volatility in the economy in the UK, in Europe and across the rest of the world. There is also an important central element about the setting of personal tax rates. We need to create an environment where the economy is growing and this country is attractive to international investors and to investors who reside in the UK. We want to recreate a business-friendly environment where wealth and jobs are created, and where that is spread across all parts of the UK.

The 50% rate is absolutely key, and an awful lot of attention has been paid to that. The hon. Member for East Antrim talked about the economics and the politics of it and claimed that both were wrong, but in fact both are right. If one thing in the Budget sent a positive message to every investor and every mover of capital around the world, it was the reduction of the 50% rate to 45%, which said that Britain is once again open for business.

[Jonathan Edwards]

If the politics is not wrong, why was the policy not in the Tory manifesto in 2010, and why has the hon. Gentleman’s party dived 10% in the polls since the Budget?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s point. In fairness to him, he has presented a respectable view. I disagreed with it, but I expected him, as a columnist in the Morning Star, to present that sort of image. On that basis, he would want to tax as much as he can and spend as much as he can—something that I disagree with. There is a difference between the respectable point that he made and the unrespectable point made by the hon. Member for Pontypridd because of the confused message that he is presenting because of the uncertainty.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful again to my hon. Friend, who highlights an important point. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) looked on favourably when the Welsh Development Agency was mentioned, and so many businesses in Wales would love to see it returned.

We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) earlier. When his father was Secretary of State for Wales, Wales attracted 20% of the UK’s inward investment with just 5% of the population. How great it is to have another Walker family member showing such an interest in Wales. That is the difference—from the time in the ’80s when those jobs were being created and the economy was being restructured, to the failure that we have seen over the past 13 years. I also seem to recall the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) questioning the judgment of the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, in seeking to abolish the WDA and bring it into the Welsh Assembly Government.

Those differences are similar to the differences today between Labour Members at Westminster and Labour Members in the Welsh Assembly, who are far more enthusiastic about the Silk commission. Indeed, it is quite obvious that Labour Members here are in an uncomfortable position on Silk. They do not know how to react, and the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, in today’s article in The Western Mail and in his response to today’s debate, has tried to position himself by thinking, “How can we get out of this with some sort of political advantage?”, rather than recognising that Assembly Members need to be more accountable for their policies.

I have listed the failed policies and, ultimately, the one on the economy, and we could go on to health, cancer care or any others that I have mentioned, because Opposition Members need to accept and recognise their part in that failure, rather than simply looking up the M4 and blaming everyone else when they quite honestly know that they are responsible.

Many Members have referred to the need for engagement, and I cannot underline that point enough. Advocates of devolution point to the outcome of the recent referendum, when 63% voted in favour, yet the turnout was only 35%, which demonstrates that a significant number in the population are not engaged. The key challenge for the Silk commission and the Welsh Government is to capture their imagination, hear their concerns and get them involved, because, troublingly, the views of anyone sceptical of devolution are almost dismissed, and I suspect that they largely make up the 65% of people who did not vote at the time.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman is using, as did the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), the turnout for the referendum as a battering ram to try to hold back the whole process. The referendum was fought on an extremely technocratic question, and I was amazed that more than 30% of the people of Wales voted on a question that hardly anyone understood.

[Alun Cairns]

I am surprised at that intervention, and the low sights that the hon. Gentleman sets for himself. He was amazed by a 30% turnout. That almost sounds as though he was delighted with it. If that had been the case in the referendums in Scotland and Wales back in the late ’70s, they would have been dismissed.

There is a need for engagement on the issue. I do not for one second use the low turnout as a reason to batter devolution, but it underlines the fact that many people throughout Wales and in almost every local authority area—ironically, the highest turnout was in Monmouth, at 50%—are troubled about devolution or do not understand it. Their views are as important as those of the strongest advocates, who I suspect are within Plaid Cymru.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I want to concentrate on the very worrying impact that the Bill will have on S4C, an institution of paramount importance to my country. I regret to say that I have a slightly different opinion from the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). There is no doubt that the UK Government have dealt with the issue in a haphazard manner. They clearly failed to understand the importance of S4C to Wales. Twenty-four bodies from Welsh civil society have written to the UK Government, asking them to change their plans; thousands of people have protested on the streets; and hon. Members from Wales have had countless pieces of correspondence from concerned constituents.

The position of my party is that S4C should not be included in the Bill at all, and that the arrangements should be dealt with in a future broadcasting Bill, following an independent review. That was the position of all four political parties in the National Assembly for Wales, including the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Even at this late stage, that would be our preferred outcome. However, we are where we are, and I will endeavour to attempt to improve the Bill before us, as will my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) in Committee.

Ministers will be aware that the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs undertook a detailed investigation into S4C. It is right and proper that I pay tribute to the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who managed to produce a report on which there is substantial consensus across all four parties on the Committee. We await the Department’s reply, but I would like to concentrate on the issues that are of critical importance. S4C will face substantial cuts to its budget over the spending review period. If my sums are correct, the Department has managed to reduce its liability by more than 90%.

[Alun Cairns]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s question before he asks it: S4C’s funding will fall from around £100 million this year to £83 million by 2014-15; £76 million of that will come from the BBC, and £7 million from the Department.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but does he not accept that the outcome leaves S4C in a pretty strong position, financially? It will receive a 6% cut over each of the next four years, which is a much lesser cut than those to most spending Departments across Government. Furthermore, independent television producers have welcomed the outcome, saying that the cuts are certainly achievable, within the sums in question.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention, and the hon. Gentleman leads me on to my next point, which is about one of the key recommendations of the Welsh Affairs Committee report. I would like the Government, as part of the Bill—and the future funding formula for S4C, which was announced yesterday—to state clearly that cuts will be comparable to those for other public service broadcasters. That would appease many in Wales.

The Select Committee report also called on the UK Government to safeguard the funding for the channel beyond 2014-15. We argued that without long-term certainty of funding, the channel would not be able to plan its future commissioning strategy. We called for a long-term funding formula enacted in primary legislation. I therefore welcome the written statement yesterday as a positive step forward. The devil will be in the detail, but my colleagues and I look forward to working constructively to build on yesterday’s announcement, which in our view would have to be based on some sort of calculation inflation.

As a party we have major concerns that S4C will mostly be dependent on funding via the licence fee. Our preference would be for a direct funding stream. If the Department is intent on funding S4C via the BBC, the licence fee should be top-sliced. As my right hon. friend Lord Wigley said during the passage of the Bill in the other place:

“He who pays the piper calls the tune.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 28 March 2011; Vol. 726, c. 1005.]

If S4C does not have total control over its own budget, its financial independence will be shot to pieces.

Ministers might be aware that the Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union, the National Union of Journalists, the Writers Guild of Great Britain, Equity, the Musicians Union, and Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg have all jointly called for the resources available to S4C to be increased by raising a levy on private broadcasters, drawing on best practice in other countries.

Finance Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I give the hon. Gentleman and his party credit for having had consistent policy on this matter, but has he had any indication about where the official Opposition stand on his amendment? There has been some indecision within the official Opposition, with policies being announced without the shadow Cabinet knowing about them.

[Jonathan Edwards]

We will have to wait and see. I just hope that my words are powerful enough to entice them to come through the Lobby with us, but I am afraid we will have to wait until a little later in the evening.

I was talking about one positive reason for a temporary VAT cut, but that would not be my main, or only, consideration. The purpose behind the cut would be to help the millions of ordinary people who would benefit from not having to pay those extra pennies and pounds every day to the Government, which they could then use to spend or save elsewhere as they saw fit. They could spend them on other goods and stimulate the economy in that way or they could keep them to pay off their debts. At the moment, many costs have been factored into the margins of businesses and many businesses have not yet raised their prices to meet this new inflation from both VAT and other spending increases. If we can keep prices down through the use of a temporary VAT cut and keep high street prices down with it, we will help families. On the other hand, if we can secure the margins for shops and companies, we will help business. I hope that Government Members will agree with that point. Either scenario would be a win-win situation for families and business. Negating a key element of inflationary pressure would also enable monetary policy to be kept loose for longer, which I would imagine is a key objective for the Treasury and the Monetary Policy Committee.

In closing last year’s debate on the effect that the VAT increase would have on the budgets of public sector organisations, the devolved Governments and charities, I asked the Government what analysis they had made of the impact that increasing VAT would have on the operating costs of those bodies, as one study had estimated that increasing VAT would cost charities alone an extra £150 million per annum. I would be grateful if the Minister addressed that specific point in winding up. We will be pushing for a division on new clause 9, as it would introduce a temporary reduction and is more likely to generate support across the House. New clause 6 would be our preferred solution in the long term, but I will not push it to a vote tonight.

Higher Education Fees

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and of course I fully agree. I made that point earlier in a slightly different context.

That measure is a good deal for Welsh students and a good deal for Welsh universities.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise the funding gap between Welsh and English universities, and that the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy is wholly unsustainable and merely a stunt before next May’s election?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman, as usual, is grandstanding. I totally disagree, and the Welsh Government’s proposals last week will not make any difference to the funding gap.

In the lead-up to this debate, I have been happy to sign amendments by Liberal Democrat Members who oppose the fees increases, and I have tabled my own. I congratulate them on their principled stance, but that action needs to translate into voting against the substantive motion in the name of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. To those Government Members who are considering abstaining tonight, I say that abstaining on this issue would be just as good as voting in favour, so I urge them to join us in the Lobby later.

Superannuation Bill

Debate between Alun Cairns and Jonathan Edwards

Tuesday 7th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I have no doubt that that would be part of the negotiations, but I wholly accept the point that my right hon. Friend has made that one does not start negotiations at the point where one expects to finish, bearing in mind the actions that the PCS Union and some of the other unions involved have taken to date. However, the point about the £21,000 threshold that the hon. Gentleman highlighted demonstrates the compassion and support shown by the Government, and I have absolutely no doubt that that compassion and support can and will be shown towards civil servants in the negotiations that are led by my right hon. Friend.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Considering that there are ongoing negotiations, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government are using the Bill effectively as a battering stick to coerce the unions during those negotiations?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the question, but I think the Government have been left in an extremely difficult situation—a sad situation, as I highlighted—from the outset. We have such a large deficit. A decision is needed on this question, particularly given the reforms and cuts that are likely to follow the comprehensive spending review, so I look positively at the action that my right hon. Friend is taking to resolve that position to bring certainty to those people whom I have rightly sought to champion.