Draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Debate between Alexander Stafford and Chris Philp

Wednesday 6th March 2024 General Committees

[Chris Philp]

Operationally, cross-border co-ordination is a matter for the chief constable, but ensuring join-up is something that a Mayor exercising PCC powers could and should do, so I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point.

More widely than that, because a Mayor exercises quite a wide range of powers—although that depends on the exact mayoralty—they are typically better able to co-ordinate with other bits of the public sector in their area than a regular police and crime commissioner can. We discussed that just a few days ago, perhaps even in this very room, in relation to the West Midlands, and the Mayors in London, Greater Manchester and elsewhere already exercise PCC powers. Because the Mayor tends to have a higher profile, typically has a bigger budget and can reach into other bits of the public sector, they are able to deal with issues such as reoffending and better co-ordinate with local authorities than a PCC acting alone.

As I was saying, as well as the things that I listed before that intervention, the PCC also commissions services for victims and vulnerable people and does partnership working across the whole criminal justice system in the way that I described. There is, then, a general direction of travel not just in South Yorkshire but throughout the country to try, where the boundaries are coterminous and where directly elected Mayors exist, to have the directly elected Mayor also exercise PCC powers. That already happens in a number of large cities.

Part 1 of the Government’s review of the role of PCCs cemented the Government’s view that, as I just set out, bringing public safety functions together under the leadership of a directly elected combined authority Mayor brings together levers in one set of hands and enables a joined-up approach to the prevention of crime. The levelling-up White Paper published a couple of years ago set out the Government’s aspiration to have combined authority Mayors taking on that PCC role where feasible, as I just set out.

As required by section 113 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, the Home Secretary launched a public consultation on the proposed South Yorkshire police and crime function transfers, which ran for six weeks from 20 December 2023 until 31 January. It is worth saying that, prior to that, I think the consent to this transfer was obtained from the potentially outgoing police and crime commissioner, the directly elected Mayor and all of the local authorities in the area concerned, but we also consulted the public, as we were legally obliged to do. Some 3,000 responses were received, and they were carefully considered prior to the decision on whether to lay this order.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

The Minister says that the responses were carefully considered. If so, they were carefully considered and ignored—65% of respondents did not want this to happen. What is the point of the consultation, given that the overwhelming majority of people in South Yorkshire do not want this, yet the Minister is ignoring them? How is that democracy? What was the point of the public consultation? It was a vast waste of money if we are just going to ignore the residents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

I will be brief in my concluding remarks. I thank Members on both sides of the Committee for their contributions, and I fully understand that strong feelings are engaged. I will just make one or two points in response to the issues raised in this debate.

First, on the question of funding, I can confirm to the Committee that the police element of the budget is ringfenced. That is made clear in the order; it is a separate account. Money given to either the police and crime commissioner or the Mayor exercising those powers by the Government in the form of the block grant or raised by the police precept is ringfenced to be spent only on policing. That ringfence is legally in place.

[Alexander Stafford]

I hear what the Minister is saying about the ringfencing. I will quote from the consultation responses of people against this order:

“A minority felt that a transfer could divert resources away from policing and towards non-policing activities within the combined authority.”

I hear that the money is ringfenced, but we need safeguards in place so that the Mayor cannot use some of the money on something that he may define as policing, but which, to someone else, might not be related to policing, and cannot bung it towards groups, people or activities that are not actually in the best interests of South Yorkshire. What safeguards will be in place? What guarantees are there?

[Chris Philp]

There is a hard-edged legal requirement—the breach of which would be unlawful—to spend the Home Office block grant and the money raised by the precept only on police and crime activity. A failure to do that would be unlawful. That is just a black and white legal requirement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend has made his point.

In a sense, the fact that the turnout in the PCC election was lower than the turnout in the mayoral election by five percentage points suggests that combining the two would give the person who exercises those powers the highest possible profile and real authority over these issues, such as transport, housing and policing in London. Indeed, that is why it is done across the country, in London and Manchester, and why we are in the process of seeking to do it in the West Midlands. No one would dispute that, for example, the Mayor of London, the Mayor of the West Midlands or the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, have a significant profile, because they exercise significant powers.

If we are concerned, as my hon. Friends are—and as I am, to some extent—that the turnout in PCC elections is not as high as we would like, then giving the person who holds those powers, in this case the Mayor, as many powers as possible would give them a higher public profile and motivate more people to turn out and vote. The turnout in the mayoral election in London is likely to be getting on for 50%, or maybe 40%—who knows exactly, but it will be quite high—because the Mayor of London exercises such significant powers, and I think that improves democratic accountability.

My last point is that Members have been very decent in not being too personal to the current incumbent of the South Yorkshire mayoralty, and I will not be either. I know that there are some concerns about the way in which that individual has done their job, and I understand that people have strong feelings about that, but we need to legislate for the right structure—a structure that makes sense—and not vote one way or the other because there is an individual who might not be doing a very good job. Where Mayors do a good job, such as Ben Houchen or Andy Street—there might also be some Labour ones, although I cannot immediately think of one; the hon. Member for Nottingham North is free to intervene and suggest one—we know that they can be really effective.

As parliamentarians, we have to legislate for the right structures—ones that are right in perpetuity, regardless of the individual—and trust the electorate to make the right choice. It is our view, and my view, that this is the right structure. Consolidating the role, so that the Mayor can exercise a wide range of powers and co-ordinate with partners, is the right structure. That is why we have done it in London and Greater Manchester, and why we are in the process of doing it in the West Midlands, which covers Birmingham as well. Obviously the four local authorities, the current PCC and the current Mayor agree with this. Taking a sober step back, I just think that this structure is one that works, regardless of some of the problems that might exist with the current personality.

[Alexander Stafford]

The Minister is being incredibly generous with his time, and I appreciate it. I have two different points, so will make two interventions if he will allow me. First, the Minister keeps mentioning the profile of Andy Street and the great job he is doing in the West Midlands, which he is—there is no question about that. However, the Mayor does not have PCC powers there, so the job can be done without PCC powers. In fact, the Government are going through a battle with the PCC in the West Midlands to try and stop that happening, and there is a judicial review. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. How is that possible? This structure is clearly not working.

[Chris Philp]

First of all, Mayors with a very high profile—particularly Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan—do exercise PCC powers. Andy Street has asked for the PCC powers in the West Midlands. He believes, I think rightly, that exercising those powers will enable him to do a better job. We agree with Andy Street.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

The shadow Minister is shaking his head. I suspect there would be a lot of local opposition to doing that. It is impossible to have the combined Mayor of the east midlands exercising PCC powers, because there are two different police forces. We just physically cannot do it there, but we can do it in other places. Just because we cannot do it everywhere—

[Alexander Stafford]

rose—

[Chris Philp]

I am going to finish up now.

We should do it where we can. Where it is done—in London and Greater Manchester—it is working. Andy Street wants it in the West Midlands. I know there are issues with the individual concerned in this case, which we do not need to talk about any further, but we should vote for the right structure and the right principle. While I completely respect the views that my colleagues are advancing, the Government think this is the structure that is right in perpetuity.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alexander Stafford and Chris Philp

Monday 26th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

Staffordshire constabulary will receive an extra £16 million next year compared with the current financial year, which is a significant increase. They now have more than 2,000 police officers due to our uplift programme, which has seen record police numbers across England and Wales.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

One of the most commonly reported crimes in Rother Valley is burglary, either to rob homes or to break into homes and steal car keys. Does the Minister agree that every area, especially South Yorkshire, should have a dedicated burglary police team to deal with those particular issues and ensure we clamp down on those awful crimes?

[Chris Philp]

The previous Home Secretary, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fareham (Suella Braverman) was successful in securing a commitment from police to ensure that every residential burglary has a visit from the police, but my hon. Friend’s idea for a dedicated burglary taskforce is excellent, and I commend it to all police and crime commissioners.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Alexander Stafford and Chris Philp

Monday 20th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

Mr Speaker, I will take this question. The hon. Member and I have had a number of discussions on this topic. We are always happy to engage, discuss points of detail and hear industry representations, so if he would like to meet face to face to discuss it further, I would be very happy to do that.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

It was great news in the Budget last week that Dinnington High Street got £12 million for regeneration, knocking down the burnt out building and opening up the marketplace. What we need now is a police station to combat antisocial behaviour. Will the Minister support my campaign to reopen the police station on Dinnington High Street, which will clamp down on antisocial behaviour, and use some of the underspend in the Labour police and crime commissioner’s budget to do that?

[Chris Philp]

I think my hon. Friend has formulated an excellent plan. I notice that South Yorkshire next year is getting an extra £10.7 million in funding, and the idea he suggests sounds like a good way of spending some of that.

Hillsborough Families Report: National Police Response

Debate between Alexander Stafford and Chris Philp

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question and for the sentiments he expressed, which I completely understand. In relation to a full debate, scheduling business in the House is not my responsibility, but it would seem to me like a reasonable request to make, and I will certainly pass it on to my colleagues who are responsible for scheduling parliamentary business. Families have been fully engaged. One reason why the independent pathology review, which had been commenced, has been temporarily paused is to allow for more engagement to take place, because families rightly felt that they wanted to be more involved. That engagement is continuing. Critically, before the Government response is published, there will be more such engagement, for the obvious reasons that the hon. Gentleman rightly points to.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

The Hillsborough disaster and the following cover-up by South Yorkshire police was a devastating tragedy that undermined the faith of my communities in Rother Valley and South Yorkshire in the police. The police apology yesterday was the bare minimum that could be done. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that, as part of this process, the Government will thoroughly engage not only with the families of the 97, but with the wider communities in Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield, to make sure that lessons can be learned so that such an awful tragedy does not happen again and that there will be no more police cover-ups of such awful disasters?

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I agree with the points he has made. I can confirm that the engagement he rightly requests will happen.

Economic Situation

Debate between Alexander Stafford and Chris Philp

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

As I have explained before, we are in a global cycle of interest rate increases and there has been global dollar strength. We have taken action in the energy intervention and in the growth plan to protect our constituents, get our economy growing and build on our record as the fastest growing G7 economy last year, this year and over the three-year period as a whole.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

The whole world is facing a global inflation crisis, and the US, Germany and other countries are facing a worse situation. That is why I believe that the best way to deal with the situation is to get more people into better-quality jobs. I have already hosted two job fairs in Rother Valley and will have another one Friday week at Wales High School. I am pleased to see that 680 more people are in work this year than last year, and 40 more people are in work than were last month. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the most important thing is to get people into good-quality paying jobs and that the Government always stand by working people?

Napier Barracks Asylum Accommodation

Debate between Alexander Stafford and Chris Philp

Thursday 10th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

Just to be clear, the court judgment found that there was no article 3 infringement. It did not find that the conditions amounted to inhuman or degrading treatment. Moreover, the judgment did not find, in relation to the requirement to be back at 10 o’clock, that a curfew had been imposed; nor did it find that the barracks or dormitory accommodation were inherently inadequate in the context of asylum accommodation. It is important that the House understands those important aspects of the judgment.

I have already outlined the measures that have been taken: an increased cleaning service, social distancing and lateral flow testing three times a week. All those measures are designed to ensure that users are safe. The hon. Member asked about vaccinations. The Government’s approach to vaccinations in general is that, outside of things like the NHS, vaccinations are done in the order that people are entitled to them based on age and clinical conditions, so the same rules that apply to the hon. Member, to me and to Mr Speaker will apply to people at Napier as well.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

I wish you many happy returns, Mr Speaker.

After the second world war, my grandfather, Paul, who fought alongside British forces, was settled in the UK in a refugee camp. A few years later, my mother was born in the same refugee camp. That refugee camp was at an old Army base. Yes, conditions were not great, but they were thankful that they were born in that, because, had my grandfather returned to the Soviet Union, he would have returned to a gulag or perhaps even worse. Why were those conditions good enough for a hero who fought against the Nazis and for my own mother, but not good enough for this current wave of migrants?

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend is making an extremely powerful point. The experience of his mother and his family illustrates the service that this country does in providing asylum to those who genuinely need it. It puts today’s debate rather in context.