S4C and Welsh Identity

Debate between Albert Owen and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

I agree with my hon. Friend. There will obviously be views on whether S4C should move from the capital, where political activity is mainly based and the creative industries are concentrated, but the move is the right one. Where the language is under most threat is in what I term the heartlands, where Welsh is still the language of the street—Carmarthen is one of those places. Those are the areas where we have seen the biggest loss in Welsh speakers and where S4C can play a role in helping to stabilise any decline in the language.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I am hugely impressed by his prize-winning background— I had not heard about that until today. He is making an important point about the Cardiff-centric nature of institutions in Wales, which is a real danger. Does he agree that over the past few years one issue has been that Welsh-speaking people have been drawn to Cardiff and have settled in the Cardiff area, which has had an impact on the Welsh language in communities throughout Wales, in particular in north-west Wales?

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point—I can only agree. It is inevitable, and in mid-Wales, where I live, it happened in a huge way—the population was disappearing completely. That is what developed my interest in public affairs. When I left school, I was the only person in the academic stream who stayed in the area; everybody else had to leave to find a job of any value of to them. But that trend has reversed to a large extent, as the numbers show: in Montgomeryshire, the numbers fell from 50,000 at the start of the last century to about 36,000 mid-century, but are back up to 50,000, so they went down but have come back up again. That is partly to do with the regional development policies of the Conservative Government of the 1980s, who invested greatly in the rural part of mid-Wales with great success.

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[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Brady, and I will be brief because I want to hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) has to say. I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing the debate. Its title is “S4C and Welsh Identity”, and since many hon. Members have talked about the settlement and the past, current and future financing of the channel, I will talk predominantly about the importance of Welsh identity and S4C to me and to many of my constituents and fellow citizens in Wales.

I want to put on the record my praise for the pioneers who set up S4C. The issue is cross-party—the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire mentioned pride in his party, and we hear a lot about Gwynfor Evans and the role of Plaid Cymru—but I want to praise one of my predecessors, Lord Cledwyn Hughes, for the role he played as the Leader of the House of Lords at the time. That body was important in helping to push for the establishment of S4C.

I will just break the consensus with the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire for a moment, because he mentioned this issue. Prior to the early 1980s, Welsh society felt that the Conservative Government of the time had broken their promise and that, as he said, they were prevaricating. A grand coalition of people within the Conservative party and from other parties came together to put pressure on the Government to honour their commitment to the people of Wales. It is important to put that on the record. Nevertheless, the language, culture and identity of the Welsh nation are far too important to belong to any one political party; they belong to the people of Wales, and we have seen that demonstrated today on a cross-party basis.

I was born in Wales to a family whose language in the home was English. My mother was from Liverpool, and I was brought up on the Beatles and Everton football club. I am still proud to support Everton and listen to the music of the Beatles. My father was Welsh speaking, but, in the 1960s, they spoke English in front of me out of courtesy, and I ended up being a non-Welsh speaker throughout my educational life.

[Glyn Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Albert Owen]

I certainly will, but I am conscious of the time.

[Glyn Davies]

A point that I did not make in my contribution was about what was happening when I was young—I am sure it was also happening in Ynys Môn. My parents were both first-language Welsh speakers, and they had a policy of never speaking Welsh in front of the children, because the language of failure was Welsh and the language of success was English.

[Albert Owen]

It is fair to make that point, as I made one about the language of my home. Indeed, people in the village in which I was brought up and still live used to speak English to me. They are very surprised when they now see me on S4C speaking Welsh, because I have learned the language. I wanted to learn it in order to play a full role in Welsh society: I belong to a bilingual society, so I wanted to be bilingual. I would like Wales to be trilingual, with people learning three, four or more languages. But we must never forget the Welsh language, which S4C has portrayed brilliantly.

We have heard today about S4C’s ability to put on classy productions. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) spoke before me about opera and religion, but I think everyone has missed something out: sport. S4C is very good at showing sport. The Welsh national football team does not always qualify for the World Cup finals—in fact, it has not done so since 1958—but sport is important, because more young people in Wales watch it than many other TV programmes. They aspire to be the Olympian Colin Jackson, or the greatest footballer in the world, Gareth Bale, who also happens to be Welsh, so sport is important.

I watch football on S4C in the Welsh language, but we have the opportunity to use the little red button to listen to the commentary in either Welsh or English. That is hugely important, because it reaches a massive audience of our football and rugby fans—Wales has one of the best rugby teams in the world and people want to watch them. It is important that we break out of the perception that S4C is a minority channel in a minority language covering minority subjects. It is not; it covers sport and culture, as well as many other things that we aspire to do in Wales.

I learned the Welsh language by watching S4C. I listened to programmes and watched the subtitles on 888. Do people remember the old Teletext system? We would have to explain what that was to young people now, but we had subtitles, and we also had the service on 889—I think—which explained sentences when a new word was brought up for the first time. That way, people who were competent and had some knowledge of the Welsh language were able to follow the programme. Language is a live issue and S4C does cover the big issues of the day.

I want to finish my speech by touching on identity, which is important. I gave some brief background but do not have much time to go into other elements of S4C because I want to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West, as I promised. I do not think there is any contradiction between the Welsh and British identities. I am proud to be both Welsh and British—and, indeed, European—and see no contradiction there. British and Welsh society must move forward on that, because a person is not any less Welsh or inhibited from being so by being pro-British; nor is anyone any less British for being pro-Welsh.

The Minister will understand that we are discussing the British isles and a language in Britain that is thriving and moving forward. There are creative people in Wales and they want to express themselves through the medium of their own language. I am also pleased that the Cornish identity and language are taking new steps forward. I want these British isles to express themselves through their mother tongues. People should be proud to be Welsh and proud to be British. I am very proud that S4C has played a part in my life, and in the lives of constituents in Wales whom I represent.

Manorial Rights (England and Wales)

Debate between Albert Owen and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

Before the Division, I was outlining, by way of introduction, the origins of chancel repairs and manorial rights in Wales and England, and how many people who have become aware of them have done so by accident.

Over many years, Parliament has tried to resolve the issue of land registration. The Land Transfer Act 1875 and the Land Registration Act 1925 sought to update the law on registration. The Land Registration Act 2002 was introduced following a Law Commission and Land Registry report entitled, “Land Registration for the 21st Century”, and many of us thought that that was a great step forward. The 2002 Act sought to simplify and modernise the law on registration. The aim was to provide an accurate picture of title of land, showing more full rights and subsidiary interests affecting the land; it was also designed to provide protection against predatory rights and fake claims.

I understand—the Minister may be able to confirm this—that some 20% of land remains unregistered. The need in the early 2000s was to try to verify ownership.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing a debate on an issue that is causing massive concern in my constituency. I look forward to the Minister’s response, hopefully clarifying some of those issues.

Landowners such as the Williams-Wynn estate in north Wales send letters to people and cause them massive concern and great expense as they consult solicitors because of their worry and because they have no idea what the letters mean. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is irresponsible behaviour and that there should be a proper explanation of what it all means?

[Albert Owen]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. A lot of distress and anxiety is caused when people receive letters not just from individual landowners, but from the Land Registry on behalf of title holders.

Upland Sheep Farmers

Debate between Albert Owen and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies]

I agree, and I was interested by my hon. Friend’s reference to sheep nuts. Lorries have not been able to deliver them, and everyone else wants them to feed to their cattle. A huge shortage of food has made a disastrous position even worse.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate, to which he brings considerable experience. As well as the problems caused by energy and food costs, there is the problem that many small businesses were encouraged to diversify into tourism, which has also been affected by last year’s long periods of adverse weather. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need a special review of the situation, covering not just agriculture but tourism and other aspects of the rural environment?

[Glyn Davies]

I do agree. I contemplated the possibility of expanding the debate to include other businesses—and, while tourism is the obvious example, other businesses will have been affected—but decided that that would weaken the thrust of the point I wanted to make. I do not seek in any way to belittle the issue, but I wanted to concentrate on something else today.

Most of the livestock that we are discussing would eventually have been sent to an abattoir. Strangely, that is accepted among farmers as being the natural order of things, but what happened in this instance was not the natural order, and it has been hugely stressful.

During the most recent foot and mouth outbreak in 2001, I was Chair of the National Assembly’s Agricultural and Rural Affairs Committee. For several months, I spent most days—and it often continued late into the night, until the early hours of the morning—talking to people in distress who were unable to cope with the fact that all their animals, many of them prized animals, were being put down and burnt as a consequence of contact with the disease. Interestingly—I say that it was interesting now, but it was tragic then—it was not the farmers who were ringing me, but their wives and parents, who were deeply worried about the men. It is mostly men who work in that industry. Livestock farming is a lonesome life, and those wives and parents were hugely worried about the mental state of the farmers and about what they might do. Indeed, the tragedy is that some of them did the very worst.

Offshore Wind Generation (North Wales)

Debate between Albert Owen and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is right, and he echoes the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). We need that certainty, and we need stability and a strategy for the future, and I hope that the Minister will note that and address it in his remarks.

We have an important skills base in north Wales linked to colleges and universities. Coleg Menai in my constituency has adapted an energy centre, which is creating a skills base in construction. Many of those skills were lost over many years, so offshore wind is not only about generation, but about the construction and manufacturing jobs of the future. The colleges are linking up. The energy centre was created by the Welsh Government in conjunction with the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority and the local authority, and it works with local colleges to provide young people with those skills and to give them hope for the future.

As I am sure that the Minister knows, Anglesey was chosen by the Welsh Government as an energy enterprise zone, which is important for concentrating minds on north-west Wales and on north Wales in general. In north Wales, we have good universities at Glyndwr and Bangor and a number of good colleges, many of which are involved. Bangor university has a school of ocean science, which is a world leader in marine energy. So when I talk about wind and renewable energies, I am talking about not only manufacturing and construction, but future research and development and being world leaders in new technologies as they appear. The school of ocean science is a world leader in climate change patterns, too, and we have to merge those things to make the area a centre of excellence.

I will not duck the issue: wind energy is controversial, although offshore wind is less controversial than onshore wind. Offshore wind turbines are less obstructive than turbines on land, and their size and noise are mitigated by their distance from communities. Obviously, that brings its own challenge, but aesthetics is an issue for many people. When people talk about the technology, they are often in favour of wind generation, but when they talk about location, issues are raised and many people are opposed. The planning system—it is difficult for any Minister to tackle this—polarises people’s opinions. People have to be either for or against wind generation, and we do not have a mature dialogue on future needs and the benefits that wind generation can bring to local communities.

Wind is controversial, and I believe Anglesey has had its fair share of onshore wind development. Given the sheer size and scale of the new turbines, they are best placed out at sea. Residents on Anglesey are not nimbys in any way and want to be part of the future of wind generation, but wind turbines should be offshore because of their large scale.

I pay tribute to a group of residents on Anglesey who have campaigned against the ad hoc development of wind generation, which is a problem in many communities. The only beneficiaries of onshore wind are the landowners and/or developers, not the communities; whereas offshore wind will have a combined benefit for the larger community.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman knows that the subject is close to my heart because of the impact on my constituency. Does he accept that the real issue is scale? Whether in Anglesey or Montgomeryshire, the issue is the sheer numbers. What has been proposed for my constituency is virtually a desecration of the area, as is simply the case with onshore wind. I welcome this opportunity to associate myself with his remarks, because he is also challenging the scale, which destroys areas.

[Albert Owen]

Yes, I agree. Aesthetics and scale are big issues that we need to address. I am not only concentrating on that problem but considering solutions for the future. We have an abundance of wind, which is a proven technology, but it has to be in the right place. As the hon. Gentleman says, the scale has to be right for the area. I will develop that point.

I support microgeneration, and it is sensible in rural areas that isolated properties, farms and working communities have a source of electricity and that any surplus goes to the grid, but I oppose large-scale onshore wind generation. I hope that I am putting that in its right context.

As a member of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, I visited DONG Energy in Ramsgate and saw the scale of the London array and some of the areas down in the Thames estuary, where large-scale wind development has taken place. We flew over the developments to see their scale, and we took advantage of the opportunity to fly over the Olympic village when we came in to land in central London. The sheer scale needs to be close to a working port, and those ports need the necessary infrastructure.

Following decisions by the previous Labour Government, north Wales has great potential for offshore wind. Gwynt y Môr, which I think will be the largest site in Europe, is under construction by RWE npower and its partners. On completion, Gwynt y Môr will have an output of some 576 MW. Gwynt y Môr is close to the already-developed North Hoyle and Rhyl Flats offshore wind farms, which are a major hub for wind and renewable resources.

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[Albert Owen]

I cannot speak for the Welsh Government, but I can speak for myself. I am an ex-seafarer, so I understand some of the conditions at sea, and navigation is affected, as well as fishing. I respect that, but the consultations we have had in north Wales, and will have on future developments, contain important environmental impact studies. The marine environment is taken very seriously, and wind is sensitive. Oil is being drilled in the North sea, and I think wind generation is less intrusive than some of those projects. We have to get the balance right, but the impact has been taken seriously. If we are serious about developing renewable resources, we have to use them wisely. Wind is abundant in north-west Britain and north-east Northern Ireland, so we have to go ahead, but it is a sensitive issue.

As I was saying about Gwynt y Môr and the other already-developed offshore wind farms, the Celtic array is a round 3 Irish sea project, and I want to focus the Minister’s mind on that because of its sheer scale. As he may know, the Celtic array is a joint venture between Centrica and DONG Energy that will have the capacity to produce 2.2 GW and will service an estimated 1.7 million homes. The Celtic array will be located 19 km off the north-east coast of Anglesey, 34 km off the Isle of Man and very close to the coastlines of Northern Ireland and north-west England. Depending on the turbines that are chosen—this is important because technology is moving fast—there will be between 150 and 400 of them, and if the technology continues to develop in the same way, they might produce 6 MW each. So the turbines will be huge. The Celtic array includes array cables, export cables and substations located offshore, where they will be less intrusive. The connection to the grid, which is expected to be in Anglesey, will be made with a few cables, rather than the large amount of infrastructure that is needed for onshore in coastal areas that many people oppose.

Gwynt y Môr has already created jobs, and I want to highlight a number of them, because they represent a significant investment. Holyhead-based Turbine Transfers, which is a subsidiary of Holyhead Towing, has been awarded a £10 million contract to provide transfer vessels that will operate from the port of Mostyn in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). That is a local company with an international reputation founded by an entrepreneurial family, and it will benefit from the investment, which could bring more than £80 million and much-needed jobs to the Welsh economy.

Looking forward to the Celtic array, we need bigger infrastructure, bigger vessels and bigger port capacity. I will deal specifically with the port of Holyhead in my constituency, as it is the largest seaport on the western seaboard and, as a natural deep-water harbour, it has huge potential. I was disappointed by this Government’s decision, after the previous Chancellor’s announcement that £60 million would be set aside for essential port development so that—I stress this—United Kingdom ports could benefit. That was a missing link. We have manufacturing on land and generation offshore, but bringing them together needs port development, and the £60 million was set aside for that purpose. In October 2010, the coalition Government decided to make the moneys available to English ports only, with the Barnett consequential going to Wales and other nations of the United Kingdom. That put Wales at a serious disadvantage, because the consequential for the whole of Wales is about £3 million. Anybody who understands port development knows that that is a small drop in the ocean, so this seriously undermines Wales’s potential to develop.

The irony, reading the statement from the Department of Energy and Climate Change, is that much of the money allocated to English ports remains unspent. I ask the Minister, in his own joking manner, to pass it over to Wales as quickly as possible if he can. My serious point is that he should go back to Government, argue the case that the United Kingdom ports remain a reserved responsibility of the UK Government, get a grip on the situation and, from this Westminster Parliament, help Welsh ports. That is what we are here for: to represent the views of our Welsh constituents. We are losing out as a consequence of that decision, and it is unfair. As the new Secretary of State said in a response to me, if the Welsh Assembly Government were funding this, the money would have to be drawn from education and health budgets, which would be unfair. The money was originally intended for UK ports. UK ports are a reserved matter and this should be done fairly.

[Glyn Davies]

I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but on a point of clarity it is important to understand how the devolution settlement works and how Members such as me can help the cause by addressing the matter in the context of the constitutional position, so that we know what we can do, rather than just stating opinions.

[Albert Owen]

Constitutional issues have their place, but it is clear that ports are a reserved UK matter—I have worked with previous UK Governments on developing ports in my constituency—so the Government should take responsibility and treat all UK ports the same. We are not asking for anything extra in Wales; we are asking for a level playing field so that Welsh ports can develop and, importantly, benefit the whole United Kingdom. If the development goes ahead and north-west Wales has port infrastructure, that will help the energy needs of the whole United Kingdom.

I move briefly to tackle head-on some of the criticisms of wind energy. Intermittency is an issue. Just as we need base load electricity at peak times for industry and domestic use, we also have off-peak periods. If hon. Members can remember the long hot summers we used to have, we needed to cut off much of our electricity generation during those times. Wind is an excellent resource in that respect, because turbines can be switched off easily. It is both costly and difficult to turn off a gas-fired, coal-fired or nuclear power station. We need the flexibility that wind and other renewables give us for the future. Of course, on long, cold winter days when the wind is not blowing, we need base load at full capacity, but the other side of the coin appears when we have warm weather.

The economics of wind are also controversial. In response to the mini-inquiry by the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change on the economics of wind power, DECC gave some interesting figures. Two large companies undertook research on DECC’s behalf, levelising the cost per megawatt-hour of the different technologies for producing electricity. Nuclear was by far the cheapest, but wind was considerably higher. I have the figures in front of me; they give costs looking forward to new technologies that may or may not develop in future. Nuclear costs £60 to £80 per MWh, compared with some £94 per MWh for onshore wind and £110 per MWh for offshore wind. Clean coal and gas using carbon capture and storage cost some £100 to £150 per MWh.

We need to develop those technologies to make them more efficient. Logically, if we can improve gas, coal and nuclear, we can improve our wind technology as well. I have seen some of the new turbines that are being developed. They run for longer, are more efficient and need less maintenance, so we can reduce costs.

Subsidy is not a dirty word to me. Most energy generation in most countries has had some form of subsidy, and emerging gas in this country was 100% subsidised by the taxpayer when it came into effect. I do not feel that we should not subsidise new technologies, although I think that the Government are right to move subsidy under the renewables obligation from onshore wind to offshore, now that onshore is established, to make offshore wind more competitive.

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[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I had not planned to speak, but the issue is of such incredible interest to me that I felt that I had to. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on securing such an important debate and on speaking for half an hour and uttering hardly a word with which I disagreed. That is something of an achievement.

I have always thought of myself as living in mid-Wales, so I am conscious that I am contributing to a debate that is about north Wales. However, if the new boundaries go through, my house will be in Denbigh and north Montgomeryshire, so I consider myself, as of yesterday, a potential north Walian, which allows me a degree of credibility in this debate.

I have had a particular interest in onshore wind since 2005 and people from all over Britain have written to me about it, including several from Ynys Môn, although I have written back to say that I am not the Member for Ynys Môn, so, clearly, I have not followed up all the issues. Because of that, I understand that the issue is not just for my constituency and perhaps slightly more widely in mid-Wales, but affects many other parts of Britain. A lot of people are writing from Scotland now, deeply concerned. I am concerned about the same issue and I want to contribute to the debate because I want the new Minister to know the sheer strength of feeling in certain parts of Britain about onshore wind.

Before 2005, I would have thought of myself as a supporter of renewable energy in all its forms; there was no issue for me. Indeed, in Montgomeryshire we had several onshore wind farms and I had not expressed any particular opposition to those, because if they are limited in number they do not have a huge impact on the environment. However, a plan for a scheme suddenly emerged from the Welsh Assembly Government, as they were called—they are now called the Welsh Government—that identified an area of mid-Wales to be designated for a huge development of a dedicated 400 kW line that would probably be about 35 miles long. That might be fine in some parts of the country, but this would go up a narrow valley, right into the heart of mid-Wales—my constituency—and because this is a dedicated line it inevitably means that there would be, depending on the size of the turbines, perhaps 500 to 700 turbines in a relatively small, beautiful area of Britain. There are five applications now, which it was announced yesterday are going to a joint appeal later on.

We have to be careful about considering developing onshore wind in beautiful parts of Britain. Huge damage could be caused for little benefit. I am concerned about, and want the Minister to look at, the aesthetic impact of onshore wind turbines in large scale and great density, because that should be a material consideration in how we deal with such developments. We should not just look at the figures, because we know that offshore wind, for example, is more expensive to develop than onshore wind.

By taking offshore wind seriously, we will stand a much better chance of bringing its cost down to where it becomes competitive with onshore wind.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the problem in his area, which I understand—I have debated the matter with him several times—but will he provide some solutions and talk about how his community is developing things such as biomass, geothermal and various other sources of energy, rather than just attacking the onshore wind developments? Can he come up with some solutions, because his area will need electricity in future and will need to generate its own electricity?

[Glyn Davies]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. There are various alternatives coming through, and I would give support to all of them. Developing renewable energy and moving forward to meet climate change targets often involves intrusive developments, and we have to put up with them, but I am concerned about the scale of the project. We cannot afford to be overly balanced in our comments if we are talking about making an impact at British level. One issue dominates in most constituencies, but definitely for me, and I stick at it, repeating things again and again. The Minister will become sick of it; he has been in the job only for a while, but his predecessor must have been sick of me. Every chance I get, I shall hammer home the fact that the operation of one of our policies is destined to desecrate my constituency. My duty to my constituency is to try to stop it.

Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

Debate between Albert Owen and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

I do not take notice of what my Front Bench colleagues say on every occasion, but they were absolutely right about this. What they said—if the Minister is going to quote them, he should do so correctly—was that they wanted a debate on the Floor of the House, in the main Chamber. Changing the way in which people are elected and the numbers who can be elected to the National Assembly are important issues. I welcome a debate, but not after the event.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy said that the status quo is not an option, so the only option left is 30:30. Those are the only two options presented by the Government. We stay with the status quo, which will not be an option, or we go for 30:30. I have concerns about equal weighting between regional Members and constituency Members. Members of the Assembly and Members of Parliament serve a community. There is a link with the individual who is elected. He or she represents the views of the people and they can be voted out. When we increase the regional lists—this is another inconsistency among some Government Members—we make things less representative. The power goes not to the people but to the party managers, which is something I disagree with, whether for the European elections, the Assembly elections or any other election. In this Chamber today, there are three Members who were regional Assembly Members, and I have respect for all of them as individuals, but they have all chosen to come here and to be elected on a constituency basis. I take from that that they favour that form of election.

[Glyn Davies]

I realise that there is a convention that Parliamentary Private Secretaries do not speak in a debate, but I do not want the hon. Gentleman’s point to pass unchallenged. As an individual Member, I certainly did not decide to move from the Assembly to Westminster; it was the election result that decided that.

[Albert Owen]

I did not single out the hon. Gentleman, but I am glad that he has intervened, because we miss his contributions. The fact that he is a PPS and is unable to contribute to debate is a sorry thing for this Parliament and this Chamber.

There is an important point about the lack of democracy when there are list Members. If we go to 30 seats in the parliamentary boundaries and they are coterminous, we should have dual membership. I disagree that it will give an advantage to the Labour party, because the electorate are sophisticated in Wales and they will make their choices. They have limited choices as to who their regional Members are. That is decided by party managers, which is what this Government want; they want to strengthen their grip over who gets elected to the Welsh Assembly.

Policing (North Wales)

Debate between Albert Owen and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Albert Owen]

Absolutely. The Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have changed their view. Priorities have to be set, and our priority would have been to keep policing levels high.

We have seen central Government cuts, but that cut has been across the board. We paid for the extra policing, but central Government have robbed it from us. We are seeing a depletion in the police whom we, the council tax payers of north Wales, specifically paid for. We took a decision in that period that other local police authorities in Wales did not, yet the cut across the board of up to 20% will affect north Wales as much as other police authorities in Wales and England. That is grossly unfair to the taxpayers and constituents of north Wales. That important point is often overlooked.

I am pleased that the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice is present to respond, but I would have liked to see the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, who has certain responsibilities. He was a doughty campaigner for increased funding in north Wales, including a prison for north Wales, because he wanted to see more police on the beat and more criminals in jail—in local jails—and he and I stood shoulder to shoulder to get an extra prison in Wales located in north Wales. Now, apparently, he is no longer standing up for north Wales but for the Westminster Government cuts. It is a shame that he is not in the Chamber, because I would have liked to look him in the eye and told him that myself, but I will give way to his spokesperson.

[Glyn Davies]

I always very much enjoy the hon. Gentleman’s speeches and take great note of them. The one difficulty that I have in listening is the seemingly total blank refusal to accept that there should be a reduction in the cost of policing in north Wales. Is his party’s policy that there should be no cuts in the cost of policing? What impact will that have on other budgets, bearing in mind that the shadow Chancellor has accepted that the cuts proposed by the current Government cannot be reversed because of the economic situation?

[Albert Owen]

I am certainly not saying that there should be no cuts. As the hon. Member for Aberconwy has said, there was without doubt a reduction in police numbers between 2008 and 2010, but that was achieved through efficiency savings. Also, the police authority in my area made it clear what it was doing, and the local people supported it because they understood it. What local people do not accept—if the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire is not aware of this, he needs to talk to people in his constituency—is the across-the-board cut to policing just because of the Government deficit reduction plan, coupling the savage cuts with police cuts. People wanted to make a choice, and that is the difficulty.

I will deal with the shadow Chancellor, because obviously the papers from the Conservative Whips keep rolling out that line. What he said was that in 2015 he will be left with higher debts and higher borrowing than we would have had in 2010, which will be a difficult situation and he will have to make difficult choices. However, I assure the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire that I will be fighting within my party to ensure that policing has a priority. I ask him and the hon. Member for Aberconwy to do the same, because rather than having this knockabout, they should stand up for policing in their local communities.