West Coast Main Line

Albert Owen Excerpts

Monday 17th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Iain Stewart]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I also put it on record that I have no preference as to whether Virgin or FirstGroup wins the franchise. Virgin operated the franchise perfectly competently, and I would have had no problem had it been the successful bidder. Equally, FirstGroup has made a very attractive offer, so I approach this from a neutral perspective.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

In his introduction, the hon. Gentleman omitted the fact that the west cost main line also serves north Wales. I will address that important point if I catch your eye, Mr Bone.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned that we may never know the detail of the bids, but surely that is the purpose of the Transport Committee’s inquiry. Ministers are there to answer such questions, and it would be in the Government’s interest if we were to have at least a summary so that we could clear up some of what he calls “speculation.”

[Iain Stewart]

I apologise to the hon. Gentleman; of course the route also serves Chester and the north Wales coast, and I will refer to that a little later.

We have had a summary of the respective bids, but to assess fully whether the FirstGroup bid is deliverable in preference to the Virgin bid, we would need to see the very detailed evidence that supports the headlines we all know about. My contention is that we cannot expect to see that while the bidding process is ongoing, because the bids contain commercially sensitive information. That would be like a card game in which each player has to reveal their hand before they play.

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[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) on securing this important debate. As a number of hon. Members have said in interventions, we have not had the opportunity to discuss this matter since the announcement was made. That is regrettable. I pay tribute to Labour Front Benchers, including my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), for raising this point over the summer, and the 170,000 people who bothered to sign the petition. The discussion has been too one-sided in respect of one company, although the details are not known. I mention that because the purpose of this debate is to find out the details so that we can know for sure.

I met a number of the bidders prior to the process. I was concerned about the process and put my concerns to them, including my concern about the record of some of them. I mentioned to First, which was preparing its bid, my concerns regarding its franchise in the south of Wales. First said that it would learn the lessons, would not back-load as much in future and would look at the whole period. That is why I am raising this issue. Of course, First could not talk about the detail of the bid, but I was concerned that it had handed back the franchise on the south Wales route at great expense to the taxpayer.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Did the hon. Gentleman raise his concerns directly with the Government when the draft invitation to tender was published, or did he wait until after that process was complete?

[Albert Owen]

Just to help the hon. Gentleman, I have been raising rail issues for many years. I am the son of a railway man. Yes, I have raised it with Conservative/Liberal Democrat and Labour Ministers.

As for the process, what was clear from my meetings with the potential bidders was that they could not speak about the detail, so we were not that concerned. Now that we have heard the outcome, we have concerns—genuine concerns—on behalf of the taxpayer and the fare payer. That is why it is important to have this debate and why I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire.

The west coast line is important to my constituency. It is an historical link with north Wales, but it also linked the capital of England with the capital of Ireland. Many of the trains that went from Euston to Holyhead carried the Royal Mail—the great Irish Mail trains—but another reason why the link was so important was that it brought Members of Parliament from Ireland to this place for important votes. In those days, Members of Parliament from different parts of the country had real influence over train services—less so today—and one of the reasons for the service was to get all those Irish MPs over.

I have taken a great interest in the line for many years, and I represent a railway town that was and still is a major employer in the area. Today, after many years of investment, in particular over the past decade, we have fast and frequent trains. Now the Super Voyagers or Class 221 trains can do the run from Holyhead to Euston in three hours and 40 minutes. On top of that, there has been an increase in the number of trains to Chester, which has helped my constituents going along the north Wales coast or those going to Anglesey on other occasions. Although having to change at Chester is not always nice, it is better than standing in Euston for hours, which we had to do in the 1980s and early ’90s when trains were less frequent.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I take on board my hon. Friend’s point about Chester, but does he agree that still more needs to be done with the direct link to Wrexham, Gobowen and so forth? That was not put in the tender, but the current situation is unacceptable and, when we consider the Wrexham and Shropshire line, all the more urgent. Whether Virgin or FirstGroup, it needs to be addressed properly.

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[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) also made the point that we want continued improvement on the west coast line. People in all parts of the House want to improve the line, but many people including the petitioners have real concerns. It is absolutely right that we want the best deal for our areas, but we also want the best deal for the taxpayer and the fare payer.

I can recall a modernisation programme for the west coast in the early ’90s, which was hampered slightly by privatisation, with things put on hold. Many people, including Conservative supporters, thought that rail privatisation was a privatisation too far. There was a lot of under-investment and the programme was put back slightly, and there was also the Railtrack debacle, with Network Rail having to take over. There were therefore massive issues, but that huge investment of £9 billion—mentioned by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey)—still went ahead and made significant improvements, bringing business from the regions of north-west England, Scotland and north Wales closer to London. Many business people, some of whom I travelled down with today from Bangor station, now come to London and can do business in a day. That is how important the west coast line is to many people and why the debate is so important. We need to get things right for the future.

In the early days, there were issues with the operator—Virgin—which hampered the service, for example on safety, with many line speeds and signalling having to be improved. Stations such as Nuneaton, Rugby and Stafford, represented by Members here, had huge investment simply to improve the safety of the lines, because a lot of work needed to be done. Now we can see the results of that investment—faster, cleaner and safer trains travelling on the west coast.

Virgin is a popular brand. I have been contacted by many constituents—not natural Labour supporters—who are concerned about the franchise and how it will run. They want safeguards, and answers to questions, which is what we want from this debate. I understand about franchising, the judicial review and the difficulties for the Minister—whom I welcome to his post, because he has a great interest in the railways—but I hope that he will be able to answer some of the questions asked by my hon. Friends and Government Members today. We are not asking about the details of the franchise, but about some of the principles.

The Minister and the Secretary of State mentioned that if we do not get the matter resolved by 9 December, the franchise might have to be taken into state ownership of some sort and to be renationalised—I think that was the word he allegedly used—temporarily. If that happens, however, it is important for the Department for Transport to have a contingency plan, which I hope that the Minister can tell us about. We understand that there is a responsibility for that to happen under the franchise agreement, but we need to get that plan. The staff and the travelling public need to know, and ticketing for the future has to be set up and run. State ownership might be an attractive proposition to many people, but it was brought into the debate by the Secretary of State, and we need some answers. The Minister should clarify whether that contingency is being planned for, so that we do not have a period when people do not know where to get their tickets if the judicial review is not complete and the new owner not in place.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I have been listening carefully to my hon. Friend’s speech. Does he want to comment a little further on the effect that all the uncertainty and confusion might have on staffing levels, and therefore on service? If staff are, understandably, concerned about their future, they might decide to go elsewhere, if such opportunities are available, and that might affect the service that the travelling public can expect.

[Albert Owen]

That is absolutely right. There is huge anxiety, and morale has been sapped, so it is important to get clarification on where we are going. Yes, the judicial review is out of Minister’s hands, but if the Secretary of State makes announcements about temporary renationalisation, he needs to reassure people that he has the plans in place so that any such period is dealt with as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

I speak to rail staff regularly, and did so only a few hours ago on the train journey down, and they are very anxious. To be fair, they have been given assurances about their future by both Virgin and FirstGroup, but the hiatus because of the judicial review is causing greater anxiety. It is incumbent on the Government, who award the franchises, to make it clear, if they are to take temporary measures, what those measures are.

Many issues have been raised, but some are important and need repeating. We need to know whether all the bids were treated exactly the same and whether the risk of all the bids was assessed, not just for the leading or highest bid. We are not talking about a casino, but about running our transport system—the process is hugely important and needs to be done properly. I hope that the Minister can answer some of the questions and confirm whether he has had a list of questions from Virgin and explain why he has refused to answer some of those questions. Some of them may be commercially sensitive, which I understand, but the ones that I have seen and that I was supplied with by Virgin were general. We want the answers to some of them, in the interest of the 170,000-plus petitioners. I hope that we will deal with the issues of renationalisation over that short period and whether the risk for all bids was assessed equally. A tendering system has to be done in that way—robustly over the 15-year period and not only on the basis of the highest money value to the Government.

A lot of questions have been asked by Members in all parts of the House. I know the sensitivity of the judicial review, but it should not be a shield for the Minister to hide behind and to use to avoid answering general questions. The public have a right to know—the rail is in public ownership and a lot of taxpayer money goes into the franchise agreement—and they deserve those answers, which the Minister could give today and help the debate.

I had a quick response from the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), saying robustly that he was happy with what the Government had done. He also said that the contract remains alive, and that he expects it to be signed soon. He has that confidence and information at his fingertips, and I am sure that the Minister present can share some of that information with us today. It is important that the Government are seen to be open and transparent, because we are talking about billions of pounds of investment.

We all want the west coast main line to be improved. I am not interested in the logo on the side of the trains, but I am interested in the quality of service on the west coast. It has improved considerably over the past decade, and I want it to improve further. I want investment in areas such as Anglesey so that we have connectivity with rail services. This debate is about the petitioners and their concerns rightly being aired by Members of Parliament, and being answered efficiently by the Government.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I see seven hon. Members trying to catch my eye, and we have less then 55 minutes remaining for Back Benchers to speak. Hon. Members can do the arithmetic.