Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Alan Brown and Barry Gardiner

Committee stage
Monday 17th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Alan Brown]

Will the Minister give way?

[Barry Gardiner]

Will the Minister give way?

Trade Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Alan Brown and Barry Gardiner

Committee Debate: 8th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 1st February 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Alan Brown]

I welcome the spirit of the new clause, but from my perspective, we should have something stronger than just consultation; we would be looking for the consent of the devolved Administrations. That is in line with some of our amendments that have been defeated. I certainly welcome the hon. Member for Brent North’s saying that the official Opposition will revisit some of the amendments on Report. We will certainly look to co-operate on this matter.

[Barry Gardiner]

I hope that that will all be unnecessary, because I trust that the Government will see the error of their ways and introduce those amendments themselves. If they do not, I reiterate my assurance to the hon. Gentleman that the Opposition will.

[Alan Brown]

Far be it from me to suggest that the hon. Gentleman may be a tad naive, but he is certainly optimistic if he thinks the Government have seen the light on this. I have made this point several times, but the devolved Administrations have said that they will withhold legislative consent motions if the Bill is not amended, so realistically, the Government will need to consider further amendments.

Trade Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Alan Brown and Barry Gardiner

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 30th January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Barry Gardiner]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to be sceptical. The Minister has made much of the arguments that, first, there is a need for speed and, secondly, this is only a temporary Bill that puts in place temporary provisions to roll over the existing agreements. In fact, the powers—certainly the ones relating to the agreement on government procurement—are not temporary; they last longer.

Here, in the provisions of the sunset clause, we have not just one sunset period but the possibility of indefinite roll-overs of the sunset clause itself: five years, followed by five years, followed by five years. If the Minister is absolutely confident that the Bill is a temporary necessity, one must wonder why he wants the sunset clause to continue indefinitely into the future at the Government’s will, when it enables the Government to take on a Henry VIII power.

When I say that there should be a proper process of consultation and scrutiny by which to debate the negotiations, I am only replicating what Anastassia Beliakova of the British Chambers of Commerce demanded in her oral evidence during our final witness session last Tuesday, when she said that provision needs to be made not only for “appropriate scrutiny in Parliament” but for a proper process of “stakeholder engagement for business” and “civil society” in order to scrutinise any changes that might arise as a result of the negotiations.

If the Government are adamant that such a process is to be denied us, rejecting the advice of business and the demands of trade unions and other civil society bodies, it should be denied us for an absolute maximum of five years, with no renewal of the sunset clause, as provided for in clause 2(8) and (9). Every day longer that the Government have those powers is another day for which parliamentary democracy is put on hold. The first of our amendments says that five years is enough. We believe that it is five years too many, given the unmerited powers that the Bill grants to the Government and the rights that it strips away from Parliament, but certainly five years should be enough. If the Government still have not managed to roll over their agreements by March 2024, that power should disappear along with the expiry date.

I really wonder whether Government Members themselves believe that an indefinite use of a roll-over to give an unending Henry VIII power to the Government is a sensible power that this Committee should grant.

Let us say that the Government persist in getting rid of amendment 11. Amendment 12 would allow the Government one renewal only. That is, the Government would be allowed to ask Parliament for permission to renew the sunset clause for one extension, but no more. That would allow the Government the unmerited powers in the Bill right up to the end of March 2029. Can the Minister really demand, with any sense of integrity, that this Committee afford him and the Government greater power than that?

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Davies.

First, I reiterate that Opposition Members do not see the Bill as fit for purpose. We accept the need for clause 2: the Government will need to manage the handover of trade deals that are currently accessed through the EU. However, clause 2 is deficient and we are still to hear what the Government will to do to improve it and to improve the Bill. They have voted down every amendment that has been proposed so far, so it would be good to hear the Minister’s plan. Again, that is particularly important regarding the Government’s attitude to the devolved Administrations.

Just this morning, BBC Radio Scotland led its headline news with a report on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, which is now moving to the House of Lords, and the fact that the House of Lords will have to make amendments to clause 11—amendments that were originally promised by the UK Government but were not brought forward. It did not paint the UK Government in a good light, especially when the UK Government could not even put up any spokesperson; it is plain why that was the case.

I say to the Minister that, given that the Scottish and Welsh Governments have both said that they will withhold a legislative consent motion unless there are amendments to this Bill, it would be prudent for him not to fall into that trap. Failing to make amendments once looks incompetent, but if proper amendments are not made to this Bill that satisfy the devolved Administrations, it will look a bit more sinister than mere incompetence.

I remind the Committee that it is not just politicians from the Scottish National party who are saying this; clearly, the Welsh Government are in agreement with the SNP. In the evidence sessions, which the Minister was at, we heard from different witnesses. Chris Southworth from the International Chamber of Commerce UK said:

“Overall...I would be concerned if I were in the devolved Administrations. There is specifically no opportunity for the devolved Administrations…to feed into decisions on trade. I would be very concerned about that, particularly in the devolved Administrations”.––[Official Report, Trade Public Bill Committee, 23 January 2018; c. 35, Q80.]

Michael Clancy from the Law Society of Scotland said:

“There is clearly an issue about how the Sewel convention or legislative consent convention is interpreted in respect of that…any proposals in UK Parliament legislation that seek to alter the legislative competence of the Parliament or of Scottish Ministers require the consent of the Parliament.”––[Official Report, Trade Public Bill Committee, 23 January 2018; c. 56, Q107.]

Professor Winters from the UK Trade Policy Observatory said:

“Parliament and the devolved Administrations need to have an important role in setting mandates, and there need to be consultation and information during the process.”––[Official Report, Trade Public Bill Committee, 23 January 2018; c. 58, Q111.]

In written evidence, the Fairtrade Foundation, Trade Justice Movement, Global Justice Now and Traidcraft all clearly expressed the need for the devolved Administrations and Chambers to be given a role in the UK’s future trade policy.

Unfortunately, despite all that evidence the position of the hon. Member for Brent North appears to be that if the devolved nations do not have the powers at present, they should not look at getting them in the future. His phrase earlier was that they “shouldn’t be looking upwards”. To me, that sounds a wee bit like, “Don’t get ideas above your station”.

We have not tabled any amendments to schedule 1, which imposes limitations on the devolved Administrations. I would argue that that in itself shows that the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government have taken a rational approach to the Bill in respect of the various amendments that have been tabled. We are not trying to create some form of awkward veto, as has been suggested elsewhere. Our simple intention is to make sure that the devolved Administrations are not ridden over roughshod. That means that there needs to be co-operation, consultation and consent.

[Barry Gardiner]

I want to reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are absolutely at one with him in wanting to ensure that the Bill does not make provision for Westminster Ministers to overreach themselves into devolved competences in any of the devolved Assemblies of the nations of our United Kingdom. We are equally concerned about that.

I have tried to present amendments in as open a way as possible, so that we can get the best wisdom from the Government and from the devolved Administrations, to ensure that nothing is done that would make it difficult, or indeed impossible, for a UK Government to honour any aspects of their international obligations under an international trade treaty. That is my only concern, and I am sure we can get to the right place with good will all round. It is a constitutional question, because these powers have not previously been possessed by the UK Government; they were held at EU level. It is therefore important that we give the matter the scrutiny that it deserves.

On amendment 35, which we are about to move on to, we are probably at one.

Trade Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Alan Brown and Barry Gardiner

Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 30th January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Barry Gardiner]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to clarify. I believe that the contention is not that we cannot have a nationalised industry as a member of the single market; it is that once the sector has been liberalised, it then becomes very difficult to take it back under national control. That is the point my party’s leader was making, not the one he suggests.

[Alan Brown]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. I would still contend that there is a confused viewpoint regarding the single market and how it aligns with membership or otherwise of the EU. Again, where the rail franchising system in the United Kingdom has been liberalised, clearly there is no impediment to the Scottish Government making a public sector bid. That proves that it can happen within the EU single market.

In conclusion, I welcome any commitment to strengthen the public sector ethos and public sector ownership, and I will be interested to hear what the Government have to say.

Trade Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Alan Brown and Barry Gardiner

Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 25th January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I will make a few remarks on the principle of devolution and the amendment that has been tabled.

During one of the evidence sessions the hon. Member for Corby threw out the proposition that Opposition Members should not have voted against Second Reading of the Bill, even though we believed it to be flawed. He suggested that we should have voted for it and tabled amendments in Committee. Well, the proof will be in the pudding now. How many amendments will the Government back? Will we be back at square one and left with a flawed Bill?

The blunt reality is that both the Welsh and Scottish Governments have said they will withhold their legislative consent motions if the Bill remains as it stands, so it certainly needs amending if it is to get buy-in from the Scottish and Welsh Governments. Our amendments were drafted in agreement with the two devolved Administrations. That is why, as my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston said, it is slightly disappointing that Labour MPs have not backed an amendment that was drafted by the Welsh Government.

We also heard in the evidence sessions a number of witnesses agree that the Bill in its current format excludes input from the devolved Administrations. As a result, agreements could be forced on devolved Administrations. The UK Government can legislate and make regulations that affect devolved competences. During the witness sessions we heard about tariff rates and quotas, which could be an issue; the subdivision of quotas within the UK will need to be considered, as will rules on origin. That is why it is critical, in the spirit of co-operation, that the devolved Administrations have to give consent to agreements or regulations that the UK Government put forward.

We are constantly told that the Scottish Parliament is the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world, but that is incorrect. We heard during our evidence sessions about the devolved Government of Wallonia in Belgium, which was able to veto the entire comprehensive economic and trade agreement with Canada. That is a devolved Parliament with real power. It is vital that we hold on to and do not allow any erosion of the powers of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.

We were promised that clause 11 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill would be amended to protect the devolved nations. That did not happen. That is why we need to amend this Bill and to get agreement from the UK Government that they are willing to work with the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. It is essential that their competences are protected.

I think that is all I need to say in support of the amendments. I am interested to hear what the Minister has to say.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

It is good to have you back in the Chair, Mr Davies. I look forward to the Committee making progress under your guidance.

The Labour party brought forward and delivered the devolution settlements when it was in government, so we absolutely support the rights and powers that are conferred on the devolved Administrations by their respective devolution settlements. Matters of devolved competence must not be subject to overreach by Ministers of the Crown who seek to amend or overrule the will of the people, as expressed through their devolved Governments. For Labour, that is absolutely the starting point of this debate. We believe that the powers of those devolved Governments must be enforced and, indeed, reinforced where appropriate.

That said, we have real concerns about some of the implications of this group of amendments in the context of implementing our legally binding obligations under international law. The amendments might, in effect, create a veto power, which in turn might result in the UK failing to deliver on its binding obligations under a treaty. We have a conundrum. Often in Committees like this we have what are, in effect, set-piece debates, but this is a real debate about a profoundly complex constitutional issue, which I do not think will be easily resolved. Let me try to set out what I think is at the heart of it.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford, whose question went to the heart of the matter. Interestingly, the spokesperson for the SNP, the hon. Member for Livingston, used the words consult and consent in the same sentence as if they were interchangeable. The difficulty is that, in law and in effect, they are not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

I said at the beginning that I was not going to engage in point scoring, so I will not take up the hon. Lady’s invitation to beat the Minister over the head about the lack of consultation. The witnesses have amply displayed their dissatisfaction with the consultation process, but she has, in effect, made my point for me. She said, “Well, they would have to consult.” Of course they would; that is why I believe that it is vital that consultation with the devolved Administrations is statutorily required, in a way that is not transparent on the face of the Bill. Consent, however, which could bring about the sort of impasse I referred to, should not be built into the legislation.

It is one thing to imagine legislation working in a benign, perfect scenario where people have good will, are engaging with each other and want to come to an agreement. Sadly, that is not always the case, and we must make our legislation such that it survives not only when things go right, but when things go wrong and a way through an impasse is necessary. The danger in the amendments is the reaching upwards into what would currently be seen as the competence and the rights of the European Union to negotiate the substance of those trade agreements. That is why I am fearful of the route down which the amendments would take us.

[Alan Brown]

Has the hon. Gentleman discussed this with the Welsh Government, and explained that his concerns about the devolved Administrations “reaching upwards”, in his description, outweigh his concerns about the UK Government being able to impose regulations on them?

[Barry Gardiner]

Yes, of course I have. I went down to Cardiff just last Friday to meet the Minister there and some political advisers. We talked through precisely these issues, and I have done the same with Welsh colleagues here. On Monday, I even met the special adviser from the Scottish National party group here. I have also spoken with my own Scots colleagues. I think that there is a recognition that we are dealing with genuinely difficult constitutional matters. That is why we have a difficult job as a Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner]

Again, my hon. Friend makes a very important point. We heard from our witnesses about the importance of understanding what we are doing before we rush out and do it. My remarks on this afternoon’s legislation have been extremely cautious in many respects, because I think that legislation is important. It is particularly important in this area, because we are talking about internationally binding obligations that are extremely difficult for us, as a country, to reverse. That is precisely why my hon. Friend’s point is so essential. We need proper impact assessments before we have our mandates established and before negotiations are concluded.

We heard in the first evidence session that there is every likelihood that the UK’s trading partners will regard the negotiation of new trade agreements as an opportunity to re-open the provisions that they had previously negotiated with the EU. Those agreements were designed to meet the interests of all 28 member states of the European Union, and the relative weight of the EU in the negotiations that informed them means that the third country in question would have been pressed into making sacrifices that it might not choose to make when acting alone in forming a bilateral relationship with the UK.

Discussions on those countries’ new agreements with the UK are taking place now. I know that the Government are respectful of the EU treaties and are not trying to negotiate at the moment, but they are having fairly detailed discussions. The Minister, in his sedentary position, remains immobile but a smirk is creeping across his face. Those discussions are taking place behind closed doors, so we do not know what the Government have already said, and what they have said they would be prepared to trade away. Make no mistake: the Government are keen to ensure that they get deals done. This whole endeavour is a different way of approaching our trading future, and the credibility of the Government’s position politically relies on being able to conclude deals swiftly. We must be very wary of negotiations done in secret in order to achieve quick results for political convenience to save the Government’s blushes.

We know that we are talking about new agreements, which could well include substantial new obligations on the part of the UK. That is why the Government’s suggestion that they should be granted the powers to smuggle the implementing regulations past Parliament with no provision for scrutiny is so outrageous. The need for a proper parliamentary oversight process for such agreements was alluded to by our witnesses, Jude Kirton-Darling, the rapporteur on the EU Trade Committee, and Dr Brigid Fowler from the Hansard Society. They stressed that point repeatedly in their oral evidence to the Committee, as did so many other witnesses. To that end, paragraph (b) in amendment 3 looks ahead to the enhanced scrutiny procedures that we will propose under schedule 2 to replace the negative resolution procedure envisaged by the Bill as it currently stands.

Amendment 4 is consequential on amendment 3 and would require any regulations made under clause 2(1) of the Bill to be subject to the provisions not of subsections (3) to (5), as at present, but of subsection (2A), which would be introduced via amendment 3, and subsection (5), which speaks across to the Treasury’s powers to set tariffs under the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill currently going through Committee in parallel with this Bill.

Together with amendments 3 and 4, I would like to speak to the four new clauses that they bring into play, namely new clauses 4 to 7. New clause 4 is the top-line clause, because it outlines the stages of what we consider to be a proper parliamentary procedure for scrutiny and oversight of free trade agreements before signature. Once again, let me underline that the procedure is designed to apply to free trade agreements, not to other international trade agreements referred to in the Bill under clause 2(2)(b).

Equally, let me emphasise the importance of the words “before signature” in the title of the new clause. We have deliberately designed a procedure so that Parliament has the opportunity to debate and direct trade negotiations in the early stages, rather than protesting once it is too late. We will surely be supported by the Government in that, given how publicly the Secretary of State has rued the loss of legitimacy that led to the failure of the TTIP negotiations between the EU and the USA. Nick Dearden from Global Justice Now touched on exactly that point in our first evidence session.

Our aim in bringing forward the maximum possible scrutiny and oversight before signing is to ensure that Parliament can amend and improve free trade agreements where they are found to be wanting. That is infinitely preferable to a system whereby Members are presented with negotiated agreements on a “take it or leave it” basis, thus risking the loss of an entire agreement and all the vital export opportunities that go with it simply because there was no possibility of excising or amending one or two of the offending provisions.

In oral evidence, Dr Hestermeyer referred to the system in Germany, where Parliament is involved early on in the proceedings precisely so that it can direct the federal Government in respect of trade negotiations, even though their negotiations are carried out by the European Commission. We want a constructive procedure that focuses on the best possible outcomes for our future trade agreements, not one where the whole ship is spoiled for a ha’p’orth of tar.

I will run through, in plain English, the six stages we have set out and then expand on them as necessary as they have been placed in the amendments, as subsequent new clauses hang off the overview clause. The first is the need for a sustainability impact assessment before the launch of negotiations towards a free trade agreement. The second is the need for Parliament to be involved in setting the mandate for the objectives of the negotiations. The third is the need for transparency—and, in particular, access to negotiating texts—while the negotiations are being conducted. The fourth is the need for regular progress reports to Parliament after each round of negotiations. The fifth is the submission to Parliament of the full text of the agreement as negotiated before its signing. The sixth is a resolution from the House of Commons to give the Secretary of State the green light to sign the agreement.

The first step in any proper procedure towards negotiating a free trade agreement is to undertake a sustainability impact assessment to identify the opportunities and risks that the agreement might present. Nick Ashton-Hart spoke of the importance of that in his oral evidence to the Committee. Carrying out a sustainability impact assessment is already a standard requirement for every new set of EU trade negotiations, and the methodology for conducting such assessments has been developed considerably over the years. Our new clause 5 provides basic instructions as to what a sustainability impact assessment should include at a minimum. For those who want to take the methodological issue further, the European Commission published in 2016 the second edition of its “Handbook for trade sustainability impact assessment”, which I refer the Minister to and is freely available online.

Crucially, our blueprint for what a sustainability impact assessment should include relates not only to the content of the assessment, but to the process that lies behind it. Any impact assessment must incorporate consultation with the devolved Administrations and with representatives of all those businesses and trade unions that are likely to be affected, as well as offering the opportunity for all other bodies to contribute to it.

We have also written into the new clause that the consultation must be in line with the existing code of practice for Whitehall consultations—something that we might usually consider unnecessary to include in legislation. Given the extraordinary mishandling of the consultation prior to this Bill, there obviously needs to be a reminder that every consultation should follow the rules.

The assessment needs to cover the economic impacts of any trade agreement, and importantly those impacts need to be disaggregated both geographically and by sector. The consequences for jobs, small and medium-sized enterprises and vulnerable economic groups are particularly significant, as free trade agreements have sometimes been to the disadvantage of all but the most powerful economic actors.

[Alan Brown]

Apologies, but I just want to take the hon. Gentleman back slightly. I agree with his suggestion that sustainability impact assessments should be carried out and should seek the views of the devolved Governments. What does he suggest happens if a sustainability impact assessment shows a negative impact on one of the devolved Administrations? Given that there is no requirement for consent, how would that be resolved?

[Barry Gardiner]

I am very happy to take that comment on board, but I do not want to get sucked back into our previous debate—I know that you would not let me anyway, Mr Davies.

That is precisely what an economic impact assessment is there to do: to show up those areas of the economy that might benefit and those that might be losers from an international trade agreement. It is then a matter for the Government, and a responsible Government should be trying to balance the interests around all of the United Kingdom to spread wealth and prosperity throughout all of the parts of these islands.

The other day, I was deeply affected to see a graph that I had not seen before and is specifically relevant to the hon. Gentleman’s point. In the top right-hand quadrant were those countries where both GDP and average income are growing. In the bottom left-hand quadrant were those countries where both GDP and average income are declining. In the top left-hand quadrant were those countries where GDP is declining but average income is growing. In the bottom right-hand quadrant were those countries where GDP is increasing but average income is declining. There was only one country in that bottom right-hand quadrant: the United Kingdom. That is a disgrace. That is a shame. It shows precisely why we need economic impact assessments. As many trade agreements have shown over the years, it is possible to increase the GDP of a country through a trade agreement while the people of the country become poorer. That is why we must take these deliberations so seriously. That is why putting these strictures in place is a vital part of what a responsible Government must do in relation to our future trade policy.

Trade Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Alan Brown and Barry Gardiner

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Alan Brown]

Q This is more for Nick Ashton-Hart. You outlined that you really think Government should be doing impact assessments—assessing risks and opportunities. In terms of risks and opportunities, am I correct in thinking that the Government also need to look at how they are shaping their future domestic policy? We have heard that part of Brexit is that it is supposed to give opportunities to replace the common agricultural policy, but surely if you are looking at existing trade deals—taking them over, risks and opportunities—you need to look at a whole raft of other policies that are going to replace current EU-agreed, Europe-wide policies and procedures.

Nick Ashton-Hart: It depends very much on the nature of the deals in question and how recent they are. All the deals tend to be more focused on tariffs and the like, whereas it is somewhat simpler. Where it involves services, yes, even though these agreements are in force now, as was explained, you still have to accept that what France wanted from that deal when it was negotiated, what Germany wanted, what we wanted: these are not the same as what we and the other party want now. There are things such as protections for certain industries that we do not protect, but the other party will say, “Can we take that out?” and we might say, “Okay, but then we want this over here.”

Human nature is such that, if you are given a chance to negotiate on something and it is of serious monetary value, you are going to ask for a better deal than you got last time. If we buy cars, we do this. We don’t go and buy the car and say, “We will pay full price”—although some people might—or a house or the like. Countries do not do this. So you have to assume that normal human behaviour is not going to be thrown out of the window simply because we are in a hurry to transition our arrangements over to someone else. You have to assume that human nature will still apply and the other country is still going to behave as a rational negotiating partner, which is to seek their advantage from our need for speed.

The only way then to proceed is to say, “Okay, let’s look at these deals as they apply to us now and let’s consider: what is the other side likely to ask for? What is it in their interests to ask for and is it in our interests to agree to it, because it is expeditious, or because it is in our interests, or both?” You have to treat this as a negotiation, not as a replication.

[Barry Gardiner]

Q Would we be negligent if we did not take this opportunity to try to improve the economic benefit that we get out of these deals?

Nick Ashton-Hart: I cannot imagine that the constituencies of this country would see it any other way. This is a substantial portion of our GDP; it is a substantial portion of our export and import. How can you say to people that you passed up an opportunity to make things better, when that was part of the premise under which we are doing this whole exercise in the first place? And our other counterparties certainly will not see our need for speed as anything other than an advantage to them, because it is. We are the ones in a hurry. Japan is 1.8% of our exports or something like that.