Energy Bill [ Lords ] (Ninth sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Olivia Blake]

Yes.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

Has the hon. Lady heard of the issues with the ECO4 scheme? The energy companies have not met the target number of properties because it needs to be rewritten.

[Olivia Blake]

Those are the exact problems. In recent years a number of Government schemes have either failed because they have not had the workforce to deliver them, or experienced challenges because people have been drawn into other roles, particularly in the building sector and in relation to cladding issues and so on. That is exactly why the Opposition would be very pleased if the clause were protected. We need that action plan. Delivery is only worth something when it happens. We cannot just have targets that we repeatedly continue to miss. It would be exceedingly challenging to argue to the public that we should not prioritise getting their bills down by £1,000 a year or come up with an action plan to deliver that.

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[Andrew Western]

The same applies to the Government’s targets. The fact is that we are being asked to take the Minister’s word that the Government will deliver on the targets, so there must already be a plan to do so. There must already be the funding to deliver, so what is the problem with enshrining this in law? That is the point we are advancing. Either the Government are putting the targets forward in a performative way, with no hope, plan or funding to deliver on them, or they are so assured that the targets will be achieved that there is no need for them to be placed in legislation—it is one or the other. Either way, I am sure that Conservative Members would want to satisfy themselves that the funding is in place; otherwise, the targets are a total waste of time anyway.

When we hear from the Minister, I would be grateful to know where the funding will come from to achieve the targets. Indeed, can we stand by the targets in any way, shape or form? That is the central point that I do not understand, because if the Government are going to deliver on this, what is the problem? If they are not going to deliver, all Committee members should be seeking to hold the Government’s feet to the fire.

[Alan Brown]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. I was not going to speak, but the more this debate has gone on, the more confused I have got, so I thought I may as well throw some words out there anyway. Obviously, it is the job of the Opposition to hold the Government to account, but I find it bizarre that it now seems to be the job of the Opposition to make the Government stand by their own targets.

I understand that the clause was inserted in the other place. The Government keep telling us that the other place is very important and that we should rely on the expertise in the Lords, which is supposed to be a revising Chamber. That is ironic, because it was the Lords who brought forward the Bill in the first place. If we have to trust their ability and that it is a revising Chamber, it would seem logical to agree with the revisions that the Lords make. Otherwise, it undermines the point of having the Lords in the first place—which takes us to the position of the SNP: we would abolish it—but the Government tell us that it is an important place. We have heard only this week about how many people are scrambling to get into the Lords and are disappointed not to get in. Then we talk about trust and not being about to legislate for trust. Ironically, Nadine Dorries seemed to be saying yesterday that there is a real lack of trust in this Government.

[The Chair]

Order. I gently suggest that we need to be debating this clause, not the aspirations of some former Members.

[Alan Brown]

I know; I was just linking to where the clause came from and wanted to put these matters out there.

I do support the clause, although the future homes standard is effectively only for England. I have already raised my concerns that the Government are not moving fast enough, because they are still at the consultation stage. Subsection 1(d) is really important. The Government should publish an action plan showing how they are going to bring forward the future homes standard. That will give certainty to developers. They need to plan ahead for the technical requirements that they need to apply to new housing developments. It is important that a look-ahead is given to developers as soon as possible.

In terms of all the other targets, given that some of them go beyond the life of this Government anyway, I find it hard to understand why the Government are so reticent to accept the targets for energy efficiency installs. We can argue about whether Labour did more installs than are currently happening in terms of the number of energy efficiency measures, but the most important thing is the upgrading to EPC band C, to which the clause refers.

The Government can talk about the progress they have made in getting properties to EPC band C, but it is still only hovering around the 50% bracket, and that is after 12 years in government. If they are going to hit the target by 2035, there is no doubt that much more structured delivery plans will have to be put in place. Clearly, the properties that we can tackle today are the ones that are most easy to upgrade. It is going to get harder and harder the further into the programme we go. It is important that the Government are held to account on their targets and that they come forward and say how they are going to meet those targets.

Finally, on ironies, I agree with what the Labour party has been saying on energy efficiency, but this has come just after it has done a U-turn on the green new deal and the green investment it promised us all. I will leave it there, but there are a lot of contradictions on both sides, I would say.

[Andrew Bowie]

It is a pleasure to respond to the debate. There is some confusion at the minute. Indeed, I was slightly confused at the beginning of the debate, given that the hon. Member for Southampton, Test seemed at one stage to be whipping on behalf of the Government and giving advice to Conservative Members— I urge all colleagues on this side not to listen to his words. If I am not mistaken, he was suggesting that the clause we are against was tabled by the Government in the other place; Baroness Hayman is a Labour peer and Lord Foster of Bath is a Liberal Democrat peer.

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[Alan Brown]

I thank the Minister for giving way again. In this clause that the Government are trying to take out, there is reference to upgrading homes—it is a condition that the Government must abide by—

“where practical, cost effective and affordable”.

Can he provide a definition of what is practical, cost-effective and affordable? I could not get that out of the previous Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

[Andrew Bowie]

What is practical and affordable will obviously be determined by individual circumstances and the market conditions at the time. Let me also say that I would have welcomed any acknowledgement from the Scottish National party, who are in government in Scotland, that we are working together across these islands to improve insulation and that we have made great progress as an island nation in getting towards 50% of all homes being rated EPC level C or above.

As I was just going on to conclude, we will take no lectures from the Labour party on the costings of projects, given that just last week it had to announce a staggering U-turn on its £28 billion investment in green technology and jobs, and it is yet to come up with any answer about how it will fund the £100 billion of pledges that it has announced thus far.

In terms of costings, a plan, moving this country forward, delivering on insulation and delivering on this entire green strategy, I have much faith in the Government’s position and in what we are seeking to do here today. That is why I advise all my colleagues to vote with the Government this afternoon.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

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[Alec Shelbrooke]

Further to my point of order this morning about declarations of interest, I have spoken to the Commons Registrar who has informed that because I personally make no financial gain from property that my wife owns it does not have to be in the register; however, I have to declare an interest at this moment that my family has a substantial property portfolio. The comments that I am about to make, however, are based on the concerns of landlords, estate agents and letting agents in my constituency.

One of the problems is if we start to over-legislate at this time. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test pointed out that, importantly, the Government are still consulting on the report. We are in danger of focusing purely on the one area of energy efficiency in the private rented sector, and in effect making landlords do things that the owner of a private property does not have to do, with the cost being passed on to tenants. Subsection (3)(a) of new clause 41 would

“enable Local Authorities to give notice to landlords that they wish to inspect a property, requesting permissions from landlords and any tenants in situ at the time to carry out an inspection at an agreed time”.

In other words, that would enable constant inspections and attempts to move forward with insulation.

We have said throughout that we have to take the public with us on this agenda. In some areas, we move too quickly to legislate on something that the Government are consulting on and that has not been properly thought through. Several times, my hon. Friends have intervened to ask where the money is coming from to do such works. At the moment, as I look at the Bill and the £10,000 cap, it is coming from the tenant. At a time when there is a political argument on both sides of the House about how people can get on the housing ladder, increasing their rents even further because the landlord has to do something that people in the private sector do not have to do will not help that cause.

There is no doubt that energy efficiency will reduce the amount of fuel that has to be used to heat a home. That is a scientific fact. We hear that it could save £1,000 a year, but that assumes that everything stays level and that we do not have to put another levy on electricity bills. I remind colleagues that when nuclear power came along, it was said that it would be so cheap to produce that we would not be able to meter it. That turned out to be far from the truth.

[Alan Brown]

Hear, hear.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

There you go, praise from the other side.

One of the points made by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test was about getting in and retrofitting now, and not having to do it again in 2050. New clause 42(1) states:

“Within 12 months of the date on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must conduct a review of the “Improving Energy Performance Certificates: action plan” that sets out how new technologies can improve the energy usage and efficiency of premises.”

I have no doubt of the intent with which that was written, but it can be interpreted very differently. It could mean that as time goes forward, the regulations will change and those with band C EPCs might now be told to come to a level that was not required at this stage of retrofitting.