Leaving the EU: Wales

Debate between Adrian Bailey and Chris Evans

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), who spoke movingly about his constituency and his fears about our impending exit from the European Union.

I take issue with the hon. Member for Gower (Byron Davies), who said that Carwyn Jones did not have a contingency plan. I ask the hon. Gentleman to look at the Treasury’s recent evidence to the Public Accounts Committee, in which it said that it had no contingency plan because the referendum was not a general election and the Government’s official policy was to stay in the European Union. It therefore made no plans. How naive can it be?

Wales receives more EU funding than any other part of the UK. The Wales Governance Centre estimated in 2016 that Wales received a net £245 million from the European budget in 2014. That equates to £79 per person, yet Wales voted out, with 52.5% opting to leave. Like many others, I am at a loss to understand why the nation voted against the public interest. However, as a democrat, I accept the result. Unlike Members of some other parties in the House, I believe that we cannot continually have referendums until we get the answer we want from the people.

There is no future in debating our past; we should debate where we go from here. Let us begin by trusting the people of Wales. President Abraham Lincoln said:

“I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts”.

He went on to say “and beer.” As we know, we like some of that in Wales too. The UK Government here in London and the Welsh Assembly both have a role in ensuring that Wales continues to prosper even after exit from the European Union.

We must demand from the UK Government a new funding settlement for Wales. EU funding is critical to Wales’s development. We have heard from many hon. Members about the projects in their constituencies. Those must be funded beyond 2020. I find it embarrassing, frankly, when companies that are wondering what exit from the European Union will mean for them come to see me and want to be briefed. At the moment, I have no answers. I was extremely disappointed that when the leaders of the nations of this country met the Prime Minister yesterday, they too were told that the Government had no answers. It is no good for the Prime Minister to go on saying, “We’re not giving a running commentary on the exit from the European Union.” She needs to give facts, a rationale and a road map right now. [Interruption.] I have started, so I will finish.

However, Brexit must be seen as an opportunity. Wales cannot rely solely on EU funding or the public sector. Wales is an innovative country. In my constituency, General Dynamics UK in Oakdale and Axiom in Newbridge both stand up to that. The Welsh Assembly must create an entrepreneurial spirit. Wales is a trading nation. Our exports to EU countries in the year to the end of the second quarter of 2016 were worth £4.7 billion but, as a trading nation, Wales must have a dedicated trade ambassador who reaches out across the world and ensures that Wales is the place to do business. I have attempted to do that in Islwyn by encouraging businesses that I meet to come to Wales. It is time for the Welsh Assembly Government and the Government in London to step up to the plate. We need a trade deal. We need a strategy for Wales to prosper. Even though we are disappointed, exiting the EU provides a real opportunity for Wales.

[Mr Adrian Bailey (in the Chair)]

Order. I now intend to call the Opposition spokespersons. It would be helpful if you could keep your remarks within 10 minutes to leave adequate time for the Minister to respond and Stephen Kinnock to summarise at the end.

Postal Services Bill

Debate between Adrian Bailey and Chris Evans

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I start with a declaration of interest. I am a Labour and Co-operative Member of Parliament, with an 18-year involvement with the Co-operative movement prior to coming to the House. Since entering the House, I have at various times been chair of the employee share ownership group and the all-party building societies and financial mutuals group. Philosophically, there are considerable elements of the Bill that I instinctively support. The Government’s recognition of the potential role of employee share ownership and mutuality in delivering postal services in this country is welcome. My regret, which forces me to oppose this Second Reading, is that the Bill’s other parts will militate against the successful implementation of either employee share ownership or mutuality.

My experience within the movement has demonstrated a couple of things to me. We cannot legislate for mutuality. We can set up a framework of legislation in which mutuality can thrive, but we cannot look at a business and say, “We will make that a mutual.” Mutuality and co-operation have to stem from the desire of those who work within an organisation to work in a certain way, driven by a certain culture. That culture may exist in Royal Mail and in the post office service, but the issue has not yet been determined.

I welcome the consultation on the Bill with the co-operative movement, but I did not feel too confident when the Secretary of State seemed not to know whether it had taken place with Co-operatives UK or with the Co-operative Group. The fact that he fails to understand the difference between the two does not exactly reassure me of a heavy commitment to that line of organisation.

As the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) said, the previous Business, Innovation and Skills Committee examined the Royal Mail and the Post Office and made a range of recommendations, many of which the Minister alluded to, but many of which have not been implemented. That prompts the question that if their implementation is necessary to make the privatised model work, why have they not been implemented while the company has been in public ownership? Indeed, if they had been implemented, it might have made the private offer more acceptable. The Secretary of State did not sufficiently explain that situation.

My fundamental objection to the whole privatisation programme is that it basically instils a contradictory philosophy to that in the mutual and co-operative elements of the Bill. I have not seen it fully explained how the drive for shareholder appreciation and profit will be mitigated to allow for the regulatory and social obligations of the privatised Royal Mail. There has been a long debate about the universal service obligation, the six-day delivery and so on, and the fact remains that whoever buys Royal Mail in the long term will have to satisfy shareholders, but the potentially irreversible drive to make profit must call into question the regulatory framework that we have been assured will contain the privatised industry. That situation will have serious consequences for the post office service.

If the Royal Mail withdraws its current contract at some stage, or under some ownership or model, it could sound the death knell for hundreds, if not thousands, of post offices. Only 4,000 of the current 11,000 post offices are profitable. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) said that mutuals can fail, and in this context there is a high possibility of failure.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

I hear what my hon. Friend says. Does he not agree that for a mutual to be successful, it needs to have a viable business plan, which the Bill does not include?

[Mr Bailey]

Exactly. That will be one of the determining factors in whether post office sub-postmasters and other employees want to work within a mutual framework. The fact remains that Royal Mail, driven by an imperative to make more profit, will be bound to re-examine some of its contracts with the Post Office, and there is no guarantee that they will be sustained. About a third of Post Office Ltd’s total income is dependent on those contracts with Royal Mail, and that creates a degree of uncertainty and risk that could well work against those involved in the Post Office being prepared to accept a mutual organisation.