Post Office Horizon Scandal

Debate between Yasmin Qureshi and Kevin Hollinrake

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Lady asks some fair questions and I am happy to take them away. It was right and proper that the former CEO, Paula Vennells, handed back her CBE. I am a former CEO myself, and people cannot expect to be honoured for services to an organisation when that organisation failed so many of its key people. The points the hon. Lady raises relate to a time prior to my being in Government and I do not know the answer to her question. With hindsight, many people would see that appointment as a mistake, but I am happy to take her points away.

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister’s response to the urgent question. Several of my constituents have been affected by this scandal. One of them has written to me to say that when they successfully appealed as part of the group action in 2019, they were told their costs would be deducted from the compensation, which therefore left a very small amount of money as compensation. I tabled a question and talked to a Minister about this three years ago, but I had, effectively, no response. Will the Minister give an assurance that those people will now be properly compensated and not have their costs deducted?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Lady for her work on this issue. She is right to say that the 555 sub-postmasters in the group litigation were offered a £57 million settlement, £46 million of which was taken by their legal representatives, leaving £11 million, which worked out at around £20,000 each. As a Back Backbencher, I was keen to ensure that there was a scheme for those people rather than only for people who had not taken part in that action.

The group litigation order scheme was brought forward by the Government and we have already settled 21 cases, in which people have received full and final compensation. People can also get interim payments through that scheme and, as I announced today, rather than going down the route to full assessment they can choose a fixed-sum award of £75,000. That scheme is available to the hon. Lady’s constituent and they can take advantage of it.

Employment Relations (Flexible Working) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Yasmin Qureshi and Kevin Hollinrake

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th December 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I rise to speak in support of the amendment.

I was successful in the private Members’ Bill ballot and at my first meeting with departmental officials, many of whom are present in the Committee Room, I raised the issue that flexible working should be a day one right that should be enshrined on the face of the Bill. However, we have now been promised that that will be done in secondary legislation. Will the Minister confirm that?

We need to make it clear to everyone that flexible working will be a day one right. From conversations with pressure groups and campaigners, I know people are saying, “Well, the words ‘day one’ are not on the Bill itself.” I have explained to them why that is the case, but I seek clarification from the Minister about that.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn for tabling the amendment and for her ten-minute rule Bill, which came long before my private Member’s Bill. She has campaigned tirelessly for flexible working. I thank her for that and for the kind words she said about me.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kevin Hollinrake)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Davies.

I thank the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn for drawing the Committee’s attention to an important point that I was going to address in my main speech, but I am happy to address it now. The good news is that we are in violent agreement about the day one right. As she will know, last year the Government consulted on a range of measures to support the uptake of flexible working arrangements, including whether to remove the existing 26-week qualifying period and make the right to request flexible working a day one right. We published that consultation on Monday. The response explains that the Government will give the right to request flexible working to all employees from the first day of employment. Indeed, we made that commitment in our 2019 manifesto, so we agree that it is the right thing to do.

The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn raised a number of points that I will cover in my main speech, but I am happy to address them now. On timescales, the legislation should pass through both Houses during the course of next year, taking effect in 2024 in order to give businesses time to adapt. On the number of requests granted, according to our research 83% of requests are granted and fewer than one in 10 are refused—that is the information we have.

The hon. Lady asked about adverts. Employers may well use adverts to promote a position that is flexible, and we would encourage them to do that. We see this legislation as key to getting people back into work, particularly those who have left their workplace and are considering returning. To us, that should be an option for the particular employer. Certainly, it is our intention that the right to request flexible working should become well known and therefore become a discussion point between employers and employees for any role, not just for jobs that may be advertised as flexible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Member for Bolton South East for bringing this Bill before the House. I twice had the honour of bringing forward legislation through a private Member’s Bill in my many years as a Back Bencher. We are all in this place to try to make a difference. Sometimes we differ on how we should do that, but bringing forward legislation is a great honour. I pay tribute to the work of the hon. Member for Bolton South East—not just her work on this Bill, but her campaigning prior to it, which we heard about very clearly in earlier contributions.

I also pay tribute to the Committee members here today and to my predecessors, not least the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), who did much work on this issue prior to my taking over the role, and my hon. Friend the Member for Watford, who did such great work on it. I echo the comments made about the Comptroller of His Majesty’s Household, my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point, who does such great work in the private Member’s Bill space and has done for many years.

The key thing about this Bill is that it has great benefits not just for businesses but for workers and not just for workers but for businesses—it is a win-win situation for all. I know that some will have concerns about it; certainly I have had feedback already from some businesses that are concerned, but I think that when they look at the detail, they will be reassured. The No. 1 thing that the Bill will do is make a more constructive workplace and, crucially, bring more people back into the workplace. That is good for everybody. We all know that businesses are suffering a shortage of workers.

On Second Reading, we heard from hon. Members from both sides of the House about their personal interest in flexible working; some of them are serving on this Committee. During that debate, I was struck by the breadth of issues that flexible working can help to address. Contributions were made on issues ranging from increasing economic opportunities for people living in rural communities, to supporting those with fluctuating illnesses such as ME, and enabling businesses to continue operating during disruptive events—not least global pandemics.

When flexible working arrangements are agreed between employees and employers, the benefits are not simply accrued by the employee; they often extend far beyond that. For the business, it could be a chance to retain the skills and expertise of an experienced worker or to encourage one to come back to work, or lead to a more diverse senior leadership team. In other circumstances, there could be wider, societal benefits, such as for the elderly relative able to spend more time with a family member during their non-working hours.

As you know, Mr Davies, before I entered Parliament, I ran my own business. I know at first hand the importance of looking after a team. With a good discussion and a bit of flexibility, working patterns can be adapted to get the most out of the employment relationship. At the same time, I recognise that there will be times when a requested pattern is unworkable. That is why, rather than prescribing or guaranteeing certain ways of working, the legislation needs to leave space for employees and employers to work out the right arrangements for their particular circumstances. Only in this way will we realise the potential productivity gains. I was struck by the comments from the hon. Member for York Central, who talked about the productivity improvements that can come from such ways of working. They can be realised through a more engaged and flexible workforce. I am pleased to reiterate today that the Government fully support this Bill.

I know that the Bill’s progress will be particularly welcomed by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), who has long campaigned for better access to flexible working. We came into Parliament at the same time, in 2015, and she was campaigning on this in my early days as an MP, many years ago. Although she is not on today’s Committee, I want to take this opportunity—I notified her that I was going to do so—to recognise her efforts in driving forward the flexible working agenda.

I am pleased to confirm that earlier this week, the Government published their response to the consultation on measures to encourage flexible working. The consultation considered several changes to the current legislative framework, and I am pleased to see those updates brought forward by this Bill. In response, as I said earlier, we have committed to introducing secondary legislation to make the right to request flexible working a day one right, thereby giving all employees this right from the first day of employment.

It has been great to see a positive reaction to the response from the business community this week. The British Chambers of Commerce commented:

“Having free and open discussions from the outset will help ensure workplace arrangements are the best they can be for everyone.”

The BCC was a member of the flexible working taskforce, which included the Federation of Small Businesses, employer groups and ACAS. ACAS does such great work, and I have met with it twice already, including with the ACAS council, and discussed these matters. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development added that the measures will

“enable organisations to attract and retain a more diverse workforce and help boost their productivity and agility.”

Copies of the full consultation response have been placed in the Libraries of the House.

The measures in this Bill adjust the existing right to request flexible working. This is already very good enabling legislation, but these are important changes that will facilitate better access to all forms of flexible working, whether that relates to when, where or how people work. The changes will particularly support those who need to balance their work and personal lives and may find it harder to participate in the labour market, from older workers to new parents and those with disabilities—the hon. Members for York Central and for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow raised that issue—or long-term health conditions. This Bill will be an important step in supporting them to remain and progress in work.

When more flexible working arrangements are agreed as a result of this Bill, employers will also benefit from a more committed workforce, higher levels of employee retention and lower recruitment and training costs. We know that as a result of this legislation, more people will return to work. According to our research, the No. 1 thing on the wish list of those who have left the labour market and are considering returning is flexible working. It was very interesting to hear from the shadow Minister about her own childcare responsibilities, and I am sure that all parents on the Committee will recognise instances such as those she described. More broadly, by making work accessible to a wider pool of talent, the measures will help to create a more diverse working environment and workforce, which studies have shown leads to improved financial returns.

As the hon. Member for Bolton South East has set out, the two clauses of this Bill are relatively straightforward. They make changes to the provisions in sections 80F and 80G of the Employment Rights Act 1996 to encourage a better dialogue between employers and employees about the benefits of flexible working, increase the possible frequency of requests, speed up the administrative processing of requests and promote equal access to flexible working arrangements. These changes are timely and important to help both individuals and businesses secure the benefits of flexible working, and they represent a sensible, proportionate update to the right to request flexible working, a framework that enables a discussion from both sides.

I was struck by some of the shadow Minister’s points. She talked about the invisible restrictions holding people back; that is key to this legislation, because only dialogue can expose those restrictions. She asked whether we can make the process quicker—let’s see. It is important to give businesses a little time, because it will cost them. It will not be a great deal of money—we reckon less than £2 million a year—but there is an administrative cost. The timeline is that the legislation will complete its passage through both Houses in 2023 and then take effect in 2024.

As for adverts, again we would rather not be prescriptive. We see this change as something employers can use to make a job sound more attractive, so we would prefer to leave it to employers to decide how to do that.

I turn to wider legislation. The shadow Minister mentioned the employment Bill, but we are bringing forward several pieces of legislation, of which this is only one. Things such as neonatal care leave, carer’s leave and more protections for workers during pregnancy or returning to work have all come through private Members’ Bills. Indeed, we are taking forward some legislation that my hon. Friend the Member for Watford first proposed to ensure that people, principally those who work in the hospitality sector, keep all the tips that they earn, which is absolutely right.

In conclusion, supporting this Bill is in line with the Government’s ongoing commitment to build a strong, flexible labour market that supports participation and economic growth. I thank all those on the Committee today and those who spoke on Second Reading for supporting the Bill’s progress so far. I look forward to continuing to work closely with the shadow Minister to support the Bill’s passage, and I extend particular thanks to you, Mr Davies, for your excellent chairing of today’s sitting.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

I thank the Minister for his response and reassurances. I think we all agree that the Bill will help millions of people in our country get back into work. It is good for businesses and good for employees. It is, as everybody says, a win-win.

I thank all the parliamentary staff, the Clerks, the Minister and his officials, and my colleagues, all of whom have supported me throughout the process—I could not have done this without them. I look forward to the Bill passing to the next stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill to be reported, without amendment.