Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Viscount Brookeborough

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

Before the Minister sits down, I want to say that he is not quite clear as to the Government’s exact position. He is saying that senior officers should be able to take certain decisions. Of course, this could be seen as direct rule. Look, folks, this is life—this is people’s lives here. We are not talking about a road junction or something casual. We are talking about people not being treated within any guideline that currently exists on these islands. In other words, these are to be sacrificed because of some political ideal of devolution versus creeping direct rule, or “Who are we going to annoy? We are going to annoy Sinn Féin. We are going to annoy this party or that party”.

Think of the people affected by this. This is not going to go away. It is getting worse. The statistics have been going like this not just recently, but for a long time. The suicide strategy is another one where there is total agreement. It is a big problem back home and it has not been addressed, yet everybody agrees that it should be addressed. What does it take?

I ask the Minister to clarify what he means. He thinks the guidance will allow officers to take decisions, yet on the other hand they are afraid that this would be seen as creeping direct rule. This is a qualitatively different subject matter, and it is on humanitarian grounds that I put this forward, not on a political platform.

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

It may appear that, because the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is leading this on his own, he may not have support. I think he has support from everybody. I declare an interest in that I have had cancer of the throat. This sort of thing does not just affect the people. It affects their families and dozens of other people; it affects their friends. I feel that it affects their friends and families more because they are so worried that they cannot do anything to help, and yet the state, in the form of the National Health Service, is not helping them. Therefore, I cannot conceive that this is not in the public interest, yet the Minister is almost saying that if a senior civil servant thinks it is in the public interest he may come out in support of it.

The other point is that, on another amendment, on the PSNI, we have just spent five or six hours debating the fact that the primary aim of the Government is to restore the Assembly. Policing is absolutely vital to that, and we cannot see the police force denuded of pay or resources to achieve this end. I am afraid that all afternoon, whenever we have talked about any other part of it, the Government have been saying, “Our primary aim is to restore the Assembly”. We will not restore it without enabling our security forces, the police, to manage the day-to-day situation. The Minister should give a slightly more reassuring answer than, “We’ll post it back and see what they think about it”.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I hope the noble Viscount does not think I said that. First, I am left in no doubt about the passion of the arguments presented by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and by the noble Viscount in supporting him. However, I think the Committee will appreciate that there is an extremely difficult line to take. We have said that we do not wish to go down the line, whether it is creeping or not, of direct rule. On the other hand—perhaps this is what I really want to say—the reassurance has to be given from this Dispatch Box that upholding our obligation to the people of Northern Ireland is a high priority, as is ensuring that vital public services are protected. This includes the issues raised on health. We are not afraid to step in, if or when we think it is right, and we have said that we will not rule out further legislative intervention. If that is not clear enough, I have to say that this is very much a subjective decision and constantly under review. I cannot say anything more. Finally, I clarify that the Bill enables the Department of Health to take these decisions, and if the UK Government intervened to step in, it could easily be construed as direct rule. I cannot go any further to clarify that point.

Student Loans

Debate between Viscount Younger of Leckie and Viscount Brookeborough

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord raises a number of points, but we believe that the student loan system is working well. There is always room for improvement. We believe that students do get good advice before they take on loans; indeed, they have to sign some papers for that.

On some of the noble Lord’s more major points, we are very keen to pursue the value-for-money approach, and Jo Johnson in the other place has made it clear that universities must provide value for money for students. The House knows that the whole graduate student payment system is designed with a deliberate subsidy in place, and we are on track with a complicated formula to achieve that.

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, I think everybody would agree that personal loan management is very much down to financial education among students and graduates. Is the Minister aware that our report on financial exclusion—supported by the FCA report, Financial Lives—identifies that over 80% of all graduates complained that they have had little or no financial education? What are the Government going to do about that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

When the Office for Students is up and running from January, that is one of the issues we will look at. It is very important that students get the best experience at universities, and are given the best advice. The noble Viscount makes a good point—that issue is equally important in giving them advice on financing their course costs.