Cybersecurity and UK Democracy

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I am glad that my noble friend deplores this behaviour, because I think that that is agreed across the House this evening. Of course our approach must be rooted in our national interest and we need to be co-ordinated with likeminded partners, and we are all working to have an open and stable international order in difficult circumstances. But China represents a systematic challenge to the world order, remains a long-term state threat to the UK’s economic security, and its behaviour is concerning. It has a choice—we have called in the Chinese ambassador today and we are making that clear. We must hope that China will move in the right direction, but we have to take on the challenge and take proportionate action to hold state actors to account for hostile cyber activity, and to protect UK interests.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister might wish to give some insight into how the meeting with the Chinese ambassador went this morning so that we get the fullest idea about all the sides that are party to this deplorable situation.

As is customary in your Lordships’ House, I should declare being the custodian of the totally unused domain name beltroadhub.com. I registered it 15 years ago with no particular practical reasons as to what I was going to do with it, and there it still lies. I inform the House accordingly.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Cyberattack.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

Noted. I must re-emphasise that it is an unused domain.

I am at one with the thrust behind the Statement. The Government and agencies are right to adopt a firm approach. However, although repercussions should be expected for rule of law, human rights and interference abuses, conversely, do the Government believe that constant prodding of the dragon can have consequences that go counter to many British interests and on occasions might be self-defeating? Exploring and not thwarting areas of mutual co-operation, building on respect of strength through dialogue and engagement, should not be lost sight of, including on those areas of concern illustrated in the Statement.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

To answer the noble Viscount’s question, my understanding is that the Chinese ambassador condemned the “groundless accusations”, accused the UK of smearing China and stated that China was a victim of cyberattacks, including from the UK. He warned that China would adopt firm countermeasures in response but gave no further detail. This matches historical responses when we have called people out for hostile cyber activity, but they have not done anything further. I should correct myself; I understand that the meeting was with the chargé d’affaires.

I do not have a lot more to say on our attitude to China. I said that our approach needs to be rooted in our national interest. China is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. It is the second-largest economy in the world and has impacts on global issues of importance, such as climate change. Proportionate action is necessary but I feel that it is right that we have taken the action that we have. We must protect our democracy and our Members of Parliaments—that is, Members in the other place and here. That is an issue that has to be properly tackled, and the Government are determined to do just that.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

We now have a senior FCDO civil servant as CEO of the Electoral Commission. Indeed, he has joined the Defending Democracy Taskforce which I very much value, being security vetted and so on. The noble Lord is right that some of these behaviours seem to be part of a larger-scale espionage campaign and it is disturbing that China is targeting bulk data. It seems to be part of the strategic objectives. We have been clear that it is unacceptable. I do not know exactly what conclusion to draw from that at this time, but we are obviously keeping these matters under review.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I rather suspect we might be walking into tricky ground in all this. I remember, for instance, Cambridge Analytics and all those sorts of issues, and many other circumstances around data mining. This was all out there before and is really of concern to everyone. I only put that out there because, from what I can understand, beyond the deplorable approach on officials and all the rest, this could be a lot to do with data mining.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble Viscount makes a good point.

UK-EU Relationship (European Affairs Committee Report)

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, trade is the engine room of the UK’s national interest. So, while economic issues might not have been put centre stage by the committee, I hope that this debate will be interpreted as a bridge-building exercise to build on trust, if you will.

Pragmatism might dictate at least listening to any outreach that the EU offers on single market access, rather than dismissing it out of hand. This might become increasingly relevant for the UK, given also the implementation plans of the EU’s strategic autonomy agenda, published in July. To put things into perspective generally, and to have an understanding of the challenges being faced by UK exporters to the EU, it would be helpful to have a relevant comparison provided by the Government to confirm, first, the trading figures for the latest calendar year of 2022 and to compare them with 2019; and, secondly, the calculated projected figures for exports to the EU for 2022 if the UK had remained in the EU. That might focus minds.

For UK business to fully succeed with the large near neighbour already requires navigating the labyrinth of regulations and EU support programmes, so the EU’s economic security strategy is not good news for UK businesses wishing to deepen their relationship with the EU. This is compounded by the EU focus on single market integration and shift towards economic security and industrial policy, advancing with an industrial policy emerging with investment and deal-making decisions taking place in an increasingly politicised environment. What is the Government’s reaction to all this?

The strategy provides a comprehensive picture of the economic risks that the EU deems it faces from an increasingly challenging geopolitical environment, from supply chain resilience to economic coercion, and building on how to de-risk international supply chains in the context of rising tensions with China. On the flip side are UK border issues, but here challenges remain with UK customs border policies between the UK and EU not being aligned. Ensuring a future-ready customs infrastructure that streamlines and modernises trade and customs procedures that foster economic growth, enhances our global trade position and ensures swift and compliant cross-border trade, is paramount. Effective customs systems alignment would lead to more accurate and timely revenue collections, with streamlined and transparent processes building on stakeholder trust among traders and foreign investors.

This requires fully digitising and modernising our customs and trade procedures. Are the Government satisfied with the necessary improvement strategies in infrastructure that will enhance and facilitate transit procedures and reduce internal bottlenecks? The Government’s Ecosystem of Trust evaluation contained in the 2025 border strategy is planned to combine data and technology to move processes, where possible, away from the border. What progress is being made with the digital transformation and implementation of electronic data interchange systems to replace the outdated manual processes and development of single trade window systems, thus enabling traders to submit all documents at a single point? This would significantly improve the import process for traders and improve their border experience.

HMRC is currently engaged in two consultations with trade, one on the future of customs declarations and the other on a voluntary code of conduct for customs intermediaries, which many in the trade would like to see become mandatory. Many are questioning why HMRC is not using the existing authorised economic operator framework, which already requires applicants to demonstrate standards of competency and security. Delay to implementation of sanitary and phytosanitary checks outlined in the border target operating model is a cause of frustration and prolongs the imbalance between the regulations faced by UK food exporters. EU exporters have no such controls on sending their goods to the UK.

So questions remain among many. What of the establishment of risk assessment frameworks to prioritise inspections and the development of compliance benchmarks and monitoring tools? Where are the Government on their review and recommendation for policy reforms aligned with international best practices and harmonisation with standards to boost international trade relations? Do border capacity building and training remain a challenge? Are the Government engaging with trade associations and businesses to understand and cater to their needs and, if so, what are the take- aways from such discussion?

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[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, I particularly thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and all noble Lords on the European Affairs Committee for their wide-ranging report. I take this opportunity on behalf of the Government—and, I believe, the whole House—to thank the noble Earl for his skilled chairing of the committee since 2019 and the collaborative approach he has taken to engaging with the Government. He has deservedly gone on to become Convenor of the Cross Benches, and we will all benefit from his calm, wise and intelligent leadership. I am sorry that the new chair, the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, is absent today, but delighted that he is in Paris to celebrate His Majesty the King’s first official visit to France.

I am also extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s debate for their insightful contributions, which are a tribute to the report and its authors. My noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford was right to emphasise how much the EU has changed and the changing context in which it operates. My noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough pointed out that there will be a new College of Commissioners next year and elections in various places.

We are committed to a mature, constructive relationship with all our international partners. That, of course, includes the European Union. As we stated in our response to the report in June, we intend to realise fully the potential of the trade and co-operation agreement, including in a range of crucial areas such as energy, trade, security and AI.

I cannot agree with view of Brexit expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury. Brexit has brought us an independent trade policy, the growth of our green and digital industries, the introduction of sanctions legislation, early approval of the Covid vaccine, and a points-based immigration system.

To return to the report, relations have improved, and continue to do so, under this Government. In particular, I am pleased to say that the UK and EU already enjoy close collaboration and co-operation in their support for Ukraine and over the imposition of sanctions against Russia. I was particularly pleased that, on 7 September, the UK and the EU announced agreement for UK association to Horizon Europe and Copernicus. UK scientists will now have access to the world’s largest research collaboration programme. This will help to ensure that we are on track to deliver on our ambition to grow the economy and make the UK a science and technology superpower. It has indeed taken time because, as some have said, the Prime Minister was rightly determined to ensure that the deal was in the UK’s national interest, strengthening UK science and delivering value for money for UK taxpayers. We are looking forward to working closely with European and international partners to maximise collaboration under these excellent programmes. We have the same approach as on the Windsor Framework—I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that this was a major step forward—of getting into the detail and doing what is right for Britain, resisting pressure to accept a boilerplate deal no matter what the terms, and delivering terms that work for us.

As we highlighted in our correspondence with the committee, tackling illegal immigration is a top priority for the Government. We continue to seek EU co-operation in tackling illegal migration—a common challenge, of course, as we can see the boats crossing both the Mediterranean and the channel. The UK-FRONTEX working arrangement, which is currently under negotiation, is an example of joint working on what is clearly a pan-European issue that requires a joined-up effort.

I have dealt with the EU all my working life. I started in the rather powerful cereals management committee as a civil servant in 1974, and eventually was the UK Minister in the Competitiveness Council for three years, where my French opposite number was a certain Emmanuel Macron. I then served with great pleasure with some noble Lords who are here this evening on the EU Committee. I therefore understand the value of engaging the EU while being clear about our interests. Accordingly, I agree with the committee and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, on the importance of maintaining a regular dialogue. We will continue to do so under the formal treaty framework—for example, the Partnership Council, which the Foreign Secretary attended in March —or in the technical committees, which oversee implementation, and through other avenues, such as the dialogue established by the memorandum of understanding on financial services. I should say in passing that I noted my noble friend Lady Lawlor’s concerns that we should retain our own legal traditions in financial services.

On the importance of dialogue, the Prime Minister also engages at leader level with our EU and European partners on a regular basis at multilateral fora, the G7, the G20 and more recently with the European Political Community, which brings together the whole European continent. Indeed, the UK will host the fourth EPC summit in 2024, as my noble friend Lord Balfe pointed out.

However, I am not convinced that we should seek extra meetings, as proposed by the committee. As the Foreign Secretary said in his letter to the committee, the frequency of meetings should not be seen as a measure of success. What matters is outcomes. Noble Lords must remember that like other third countries, albeit we are special because of our mutual history, we must focus our demands on what really matters to our people and our businesses.

The TCA has now underpinned our trade and wider relationship with the EU for more than two years. Its committees meet regularly—more than 40 times since the beginning of 2021, with 15 more planned over the next few months. There is also extensive engagement with the EU and with individual member states outside the TCA structures. For example, the Deputy Prime Minister, Oliver Dowden, was in Italy last week and spoke on security and AI at the Pontignano conference. To pick up a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, we work hard to make engagement warm and trusting where appropriate. As my noble friend Lord Lamont said, improving our relationship with the EU is not betraying Brexit. I think there was agreement on that point.

The committee’s report rightly focused on our foreign, security and defence relationship with the EU. As our integrated review refresh makes clear, although we have left the European Union, the UK retains a significant role and stake in the future of our home region. It is essential that we work together to respond to common geopolitical threats and in support of our shared values of freedom and democracy.

In response to points made by a number of noble Lords—including my noble friend Lord Lamont, the noble Lords, Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Hannay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford—let me say that we do not currently consider that bringing co-operation on these matters into a formalised structure would lead to more effective co-ordination. We are focused on the substance of our co-operation and what we want to achieve together where our interests align, rather than the form. Close co-operation is vital in, for example, developing military mobility, crisis response, resilience and countering disinformation and hybrid threats where NATO and the EU have complementary strengths and tools.

The UK’s focus is strongly on strengthening our foreign and security policy relationship with the EU on Ukraine. As my noble friend Lord Tugendhat said, that is very important and likely to be important well into the future. The UK-hosted Ukraine Recovery Conference was a shining example of what can be achieved. We must remain steadfast in our support.

I say this in response to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: our approach is essentially practical. Our co-ordination with the EU demonstrates our shared commitment to European security. We are working closely not only on PESCO, where the UK is negotiating terms to better enable us to shape the rules on cross-border military transport, but on providing Ukraine with military training, equipment, cyber resilience, humanitarian and economic support, sanctions, energy resilience and countering Russian disinformation.

On the question from the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, about the formalisation of sanctions co-operation, it is our view that our existing arrangements for co-ordinating sanctions with the EU are working well. However, I wish to pick up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone. The UK, along with our international partners, has the largest, most rigorous package of sanctions ever imposed on a major economy. I think it is fair to say that we surprised Russia with the scale and level of international unity on sanctions. We will continue our efforts to combat circumvention.

Our officials are in regular contact with EU institutions and member states. We co-operate on all elements of sanctions policy, from design to implementation. Although we constantly keep our processes under review, we do not assess that a more formal arrangement would improve co-ordination. Furthermore, the enhanced partnership between the US Office of Foreign Assets Control and the UK Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation reflects the closely corresponding function of those organisations within our respective systems. That is the answer: this structural similarity is not present in the case of the EU, which has no equivalent.

More broadly, we look forward to establishing dialogues on the important areas of cybersecurity and counter- terrorism.

Close co-operation on energy security between the UK and the EU is crucial as Europe decouples from Russian hydrocarbons. We expect to continue proactively engaging on planning for next winter and beyond, ensuring stable energy supplies while reaching our respective decarbonisation goals. We are also pleased to have resumed participation in the North Seas Energy Cooperation with both the EU and other friends. Exploiting the huge renewable potential of the region will boost European energy production, enhance our energy security and support the transition to net zero.

I am afraid that I cannot agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. Today, the Prime Minister reiterated our commitment to net zero by 2050 and set out a path for achieving it in a fair, proportionate way. Our new approach is pragmatic, proportionate and realistic because the key is maintaining the British people’s consent on reaching net zero by 2050. I think people will come to understand that.

The Government are committed to working with partners such as the EU to find international solutions to carbon leakage, an issue that was raised by the committee. We are following developments on the CBAM closely ahead of the transitional reporting phase, which will launch on 1 October, and engaging with the Commission to discuss technical considerations relevant to UK manufacturers. The UK raised the CBAM at the Trade Specialised Committee on Goods in 2021 and 2022 and is currently in discussion with the EU on the agenda for this autumn’s committees. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, will be glad to know that the Government have consulted on measures to combat carbon leakage, will consider the responses carefully and will issue a response in due course.

The UK has ambitious carbon pricing through our emissions trading scheme and carbon price support mechanism. The TCA commits the UK to co-operating on carbon pricing; discussions on this issue would be covered by the Trade Specialised Committee on Level Playing Field for Open and Fair Competition and Sustainable Development. We remain open to the possibility of linking the UK ETS internationally and continue to work collaboratively with a range of like-minded nations to tackle our shared climate challenges. We will update noble Lords in due course. I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, on the subject of energy flows but I think she is probably aware of the interconnector arrangements that we have.

The issue of mobility is an important part of our relationship with the EU. The withdrawal agreement provided for the protection of the rights of more than 5 million EU citizens to remain indefinitely in the UK, as well as to work and access public services as they did before the UK left the EU. Since leaving, the Government have focused the immigration system towards securing the skilled labour that businesses need to stay competitive and innovative.

The Government agree on the value of cultural and educational exchanges between the UK and other nations and will continue to support opportunities for young people, which have featured in the comments of several noble Lords this evening. We are exploring new bilateral youth mobility schemes with international partners, including our European neighbours. In response to the request from the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for an update on discussions with the EU and member states, he will understand that I cannot go into detail but there are live discussions and I can confirm that Parliament will be updated as appropriate; I hope that will also be welcome to the noble Baroness, Lady Bull. We already have 10 youth mobility scheme agreements with other international partners, including Canada, New Zealand and Japan. We recently agreed arrangements with Andorra and Uruguay. The majority of EU member states have working holiday agreements with third countries so we continue to explore the possibilities.

We also recognise the enormous contribution of the UK’s creative and cultural industries. Since we left the EU, we have engaged with EU member states on entry requirements and the difficult issue of touring artists, which we used to discuss when I was on the committee. Now, only three member states—Portugal, Malta, and Cyprus—do not offer any visa or work permit-free routes.

Noble Lords have talked about Erasmus+. The Government chose not to participate in Erasmus+ for the 2021-27 programme, deciding instead to introduce a global scheme and provide more opportunities for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. The Turing scheme now funds 40,000 placements in 160 destinations across the world. The Government believe that it is right to prioritise funding outbound mobilities under the scheme at the present time. As the report made clear, there have been considerable benefits for that, including for disadvantaged students.

As my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising said, Brexit has allowed the UK to carve out its own trade policy. As an independent trading nation, we now have 70 trade agreements in place, including new deals with the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, with Australia, with New Zealand and through the new Singapore partnership, which was mentioned during the debate. The freedom to strike such deals opens up many new opportunities in goods as well as services, our exports of which reached record highs in 2022 under current prices. We should of course celebrate the facts that the TCA is the world’s biggest zero-tariff, zero-quota FTA and that the EU collectively remains our largest trading partner.

A number of noble Lords mentioned our border target operating model, which was published in August. It set out our new approach to how security and SPS controls would be risk based and benefit from our new ambitious single trade window, which is designed to simplify and digitalise border trade in goods, and help smaller businesses. The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, referred to it. We continue to work with stakeholders to prepare and we updated the House in a definitive Written Statement at the beginning of September.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, raised some questions and concerns about small businesses. There has been a small delay to help businesses to adapt, which will also minimise the inflationary impact. I confirm that we did discuss these matters with the EU and member state veterinarians and there were extensive discussions with trade bodies.

The committee recommended that the Government should seek an agreement with the EU on SPS controls. The Government are open to this and, with the advent of the BTOM, there is more incentive for a deal. However, it must be based on equivalence and not on alignment to EU rules.

As several noble Lords said, the leader of the Opposition recently called for a much closer trading relationship with the EU. This is puzzling and, my experience would suggest, naive. It also risks returning us to the divisions of the past seven years after the referendum instead of focusing, as we should, on our national priorities. The Government’s approach, building incrementally on what we have already achieved, is much more likely to bear fruit.

We have heard a range of opinions in this place. Many—I think most—think that leaving the European Union was a mistake and that we should be binding ourselves closer to the EU. Others favour divergence. The Government are taking a pragmatic approach. We believe in a mature relationship with the EU— maximising the TCA, tackling shared geostrategic challenges such as Russian aggression against Ukraine, which has brought the defenders of democracy together, and respectfully disagreeing on areas where we have different views. That is the best approach for the UK.

I am grateful to noble Lords for this debate. The House will be glad to know that the Foreign Secretary will be addressing members of the European Affairs Committee in an evidence session in October.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I clearly cannot speak for Portugal, but I understand that it is looking for reciprocal arrangements in the matters to which the noble Baroness referred.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank the noble Viscount for that information. Perhaps we could have a word on the detail.

House of Lords (Peerage Nominations) Bill [HL]

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 18th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for making that point. Of course, as she says, the new Prime Minister becomes accountable to the monarch for putting forward the names of Peers in the future, taking into account the advice of HOLAC. The same is true of any further Dissolution List that may come from the other former Prime Minister.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

I thank the Minister, to whom I apologise for intervening. Is she able to say with any greater degree of certainty that the Prime Minister has been consulted on the measures put forward today?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

No. 10 and the Prime Minister are aware that we have had three days of useful discussion on these subjects: we have had two Questions and we now have this Bill. As I said at the very beginning, the new Government will be looking at the proceedings today, and they will reflect on what the House has to say.

Negotiating Objectives for a Free Trade Agreement with India

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2022 Grand Committee

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

The relationship with India ranks alongside the most important. Free, independent and democratic, India is a powerhouse that will play a pivotal role in future world affairs and commands attention and respect. A potential United Kingdom-India free trade agreement would be the UK’s first with a south Asian country and India’s first with a major western economy and a member of the G7. India is the UK’s 15th-largest trading partner and accounts for 1.7% of total UK trade. The potential economic gains from this comprehensive agreement are projected to be more significant than those from trade agreements with Australia, New Zealand or Japan. However, the UK has lost market share, with every country in the G7 having faster growth in their trade with India in percentage terms. The UK needs to play catch-up, with a global Britain working hard and fast on its relationships.

There is much to be gained therefore in strengthening an historical, deep, across-the-board relationship, but we should recognise that this relationship should never be taken as a given. The previous UK Prime Minister’s visit to Delhi and Gujarat, recognising that half of British Indians are of Gujarati descent, was a helpful UK-India bilateral exercise that served to further opportunities across the energy and health sectors, the green economy, including offshore wind and hydrogen, and the important security and defence partnership, building on India’s desire to move on from Russian weaponry procurement. The need for effective new technology and hardware to respond to threats in the Indian Ocean as part of the Quad grouping alliance with the USA, Japan and Australia is geo-imperative. Our overdependency on China as a supply chain provider presents India with opportunities to be a reliable, competitive global alternative.

The UK should not be too starry-eyed. The Indians are canny and challenging negotiators, and the importance placed on trade agreements by India differs from our relentless, active pursuit of FTAs, contrasting with India’s scepticism. More remains to be done, however. India’s political class is questioning the merits of expanding trade links with the UK, with much of its thinking dating from the colonial era when unfettered imports from Britain had a negative effect on the domestic economy. India’s businesses are keen to safeguard their interests by advocating for a slower pace of trade and investment liberalisation, and I have little doubt that the Rajya Sabha, the Council of States, and the Lok Sabha, the House of the People, will wish to be assured that the interests of the differing regions of that vast country are properly covered before ratification.

Nevertheless, notwithstanding India having a record of pulling out of substantive negotiations, there are indicators of a fundamental change in approach. Delhi is unlikely, however, to acquiesce on reducing tariffs unless progress is made on mobility, a key demand that will allow skilled Indian workers into the UK. Tariff removals from India’s agricultural sector, for example, are crucial for protecting India’s ability to produce its own food supply and the employment of almost half the workforce. Significant additional challenges remain with divergences in the services, market access, digital, investment and dispute settlement mechanisms.

The UK might wish to consider the production of defence equipment in India and its exporting to third countries. I note the sailing from Kochi last week for sea trials of INS “Vikrant”, India’s first home-built aircraft carrier. India would welcome the British ship- building industry leveraging lower costs of manufacturing in Indian shipyards. Dual-use technologies are also considered important with cross-border data flows, data protection and cybersecurity as important areas that India and the UK could usefully collaborate on, in addition to energy security, including areas such as green hydrogen, beyond opportunities in manufacturing.

Advancing financial services is a key ask, from which the UK would benefit substantially in better access for our financial and legal services firms to the Indian market. The financial sector is emerging as a vibrant and dynamic area of growth in the Indian economy, but India ranks only 30th as an export destination for UK financial services. Figures suggest that Britain exported only about £3.8 billion of services to India, with financial services making up less than 10% of that total. Indian financial centres, unlike their Asian peers, are not sizeable in serving India’s economy. On the flipside, it is essential that the UK be competitive and offer attractive propositions to India, which would also serve to stem any general decline in our financial services sector.

Five rounds of negotiations have been concluded, with a whole raft of matters remaining. India is keen to tackle smuggling, counterfeiting and loss of tax revenue; improvising customs arrangements to reduce bureaucratic delays and red tape is considered crucial for small businesses. The UK Government have listed intellectual property as important within a trade deal that would enable low-cost vaccines to be produced by countries such as India.

Are concerns about toxic pesticides being allowed into the UK a potential stumbling block? Impacts on UK agriculture resulted from an increase in Indian wheat exports to the UK which contain chlorpyrifos, which was banned in 2019. International labour markets with low pay and exploitative conditions should be a factor. It is therefore considered important that an investor dispute settlement scheme be put into place to allow foreign investors to sue when profits are threatened.

A strategy to boost exports to India is needed. But if the UK is to be serious about trade, will the Prime Minister finally allocate a trade envoy to India—and not just one, by the by, but four, to accommodate India’s size and diversity? The detail must be got right. Deals of this size could typically take years to complete so it is questionable, given the challenges, whether the setting of an ambitious but arbitrary deadline for concluding the negotiations is the right approach. I am reminded of my grandfather’s remarks on the subject of local needs when assuming the governorship of Bengal at a challenging time in its history. Communities in both India and the United Kingdom should benefit from a draft that will stand the test of time and balances mutual advantage in addressing the wide diversity of India.

Bain & Company: Public Sector Contracts

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not familiar with the specific case that the noble Baroness raises. I will seek information and write to her in response.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, the last question leads on to a point that I would like to ask the Minister about. The St Petersburg International Economic Forum is taking place in mid-June, and a large number of these management consultants are going to be attending it, from one office or another—maybe it will be from their Moscow office. Does it need consideration that these organisations are not being helpful in the grand scheme of things, when the Government have a clear policy on such matters?

[Lord True (Con)]

I note what the noble Viscount says, but the Cabinet Office review into this specific company will conclude within weeks. We will have discussions on this in the Procurement Bill, and your Lordships will be able to explore these matters at greater length then. Obviously, I am concerned by any suggestion of corruption and misconduct, and we are widening in the Bill the scope of misconduct which can lead to exclusion.

Border Checks on Imported Goods: New IT Systems

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we have taken the decision. As the noble Lord referred to in the first part of his question, the fact is that, at the moment, one does not wish to add particular difficulties against the international background. However, we have introduced, and will maintain, checks on high-risk animal and plant products. The noble Lord’s point is important. I can assure him that we respect the input of the British Veterinary Association—this was referred to in a previous question—and that of other expert bodies, and we will work closely with it over the next year and a half to design the new regime of control.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, it certainly appears that secure, digital and paperless are synonymous with tomorrow’s world. However, would the Minister care to expand on his initial response as to what assessment has been made of business readiness for the closure of CHIEF and migrations to the CDS for imports and exports? How does this align with the Government’s timeline for border changes as part of the border 2025 strategy?

Lobbying of Ministers

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we are in regular contact with my noble friend Lord Pickles, who chairs ACOBA. Its work is important. As I have said to your Lordships, we think that putting it on a statutory basis would be out of line with the general principle that Ministers and officials are subject to the same legal system as others. We are open to change and constant reflection, and I have had meetings with my noble friend Lord Pickles on that subject.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, how would the Minister recommend that the provision of cutting-edge information that would enable Ministers to make appropriate decisions be conducted, so that the information is at their behest to enable that very same process of decision-making?

[Lord True (Con)]

I apologise but I did not absolutely get the point that the noble Viscount makes. It is certainly the case that in a free society and a free country, it is perfectly reasonable for individuals or organisations to go to their MP, the Government or the local council to put the case for changes and provide information from outside, which may help government, councils or others make decisions. That is an inherent part of a free society.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 3rd December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, apropos of nothing to do with this Second Reading, I would not wish the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to be of the view that, just because one had the questionable privilege of a private education, one does not have aspirations for an all-encompassing levelling-up programme, including in respect of gender sensitivities among many others. He may, on the other hand, have a point about Eton.

I suspect that there is trouble ahead for me today, having drawn the short straw of being placed to speak long before the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. Journeying down memory lane I will say that, when I first entered your Lordships’ House, I decided early on either to become fully involved and, at the very least, be considered moderately sensible and respectful to all, or have nothing whatever to do with the place. I have hitherto tended to stay away from the multiple attempts by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on this by-election issue, remembering, honour-bound, that it was my hereditary colleagues who supported my privilege to remain. It is a responsibility that I have taken seriously; I have attempted to contribute as an independent Member who upholds the importance and relevance of the scrutiny functions as fulfilled by your Lordships’ House.

I am of the belief that the hereditaries who remain should stand up and be counted and become fully involved with this question. I have attempted in the past to encourage a gathering of us to consider how to make an essential contribution to the modernising of our constitution in as much as it impacts the House of Lords. Regrettably, this has come to naught. Maybe the time is approaching when this might be reconsidered. It would at the very least return us to the principle of the Weatherill amendment.

Generally in life I prefer to opt for the big bang approach, not creeping instalments—not so in this instance, though, given the three immediate challenges: first, our numbers; secondly, the appointments process; and, thirdly, the matter before us today, the hereditary by-election process. Given the practicalities, the big bang approach is seemingly not going to happen, so in order to ensure a modicum of reputation-saving we should be striving for all three to be changed via democratic changes from within rather than imposed. In my view, for example, it is gut-wrenching that the Prime Minister of the day can appoint, for pure political expediency of one kind or another, Members who then play no role whatever in the activities of your Lordships’ House. That should end forthwith.

In my humble opinion, an endgame that would best serve the interests of the four component parts of the union, serving the respective regional interests for differing reasons, would be a federal system comprising those four elements and sweeping away all current Members with an elected process representative of the four regions. Our current arrangements are manifestly not suitable, and we have a golden opportunity to modernise our state that would equally address the aftermath and vagaries of Brexit.

I have often asked why we as a country advocate for penalising those with autocratic tendencies when it could be suggested that our democracy falls short of the mark. The situation is clear: the will of the House is being blocked. That must end. I have just now consulted the Clerk of the Parliaments to see whether there is any mechanism to leapfrog the Committee stage and move on, recognising that, frankly, there is really nothing to amend. He has informed me that that is not possible, and I fully understand that procedurally, but if anyone in the House comes up with a different approach then I ask them to stand up and be counted.

For the reasons I have stated, I support this Private Member’s Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and offer it a fair wind.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

It was not complied with, as he perfectly well knows. You do not need a second general election in order to validate the promises made at the first one a few weeks before. We are getting into the ludicrous weeds at the moment, I have to say.

The other thing that people simply have not given an answer to is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend Lord Anderson that Governments cannot bind their successors. This is line one, rule one of any course on the British constitution, which everyone seems to understand. I never thought I would need to explain that to Members of the House of Lords. Of course you cannot bind your successor. As the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said, why would you bother having elections if that applied?

I thought I would check the figures. If we look at the people who were actually in either House in 1999 when this binding—we are told—agreement was made, which all of us must abide by, most people were not in the House of Commons or the House of Lords at that time. Some 75% of this House—590 of us, including me—arrived after the 1999 deal, or so-called deal, was struck. In the Commons, the figures are even greater: 90% of MPs in the Commons have come here since 1999; only 62 of the 650 Members of the House of Commons were here in 1999. Do eight or nine people in this Chamber today have the affront to say that those Members of the House of Commons and of this House must absolutely deliver to the letter the deal that was made, which in some cases was before they were born? It is an absurd argument. I feel as though I am dealing with a new class on the British constitution sometimes, when I am winding up these debates. Those are the figures.

I am obviously grateful to so many of my colleagues and Members on the other side; the strength of feeling on this is reflected right across the Chamber. I have to mention the noble Lord, Lord Young—I was not born yesterday; I knew that, when he was giving the answers from that Front Bench, he basically did not believe a word of it. I am not one to talk, because I have whipped a few Bills through that I did not believe a word of, but that is life.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

I apologise for intervening, but hope that the noble Lord considers what I say sensible, and I give him an opportunity to reflect as he now winds down, regarding moving this Second Reading Motion. I certainly recognise his frustration. He has given this subject, yet again, a very good airing. However, in the circumstances, and given that the Government seemingly will not give their support to this Private Member’s Bill, I wonder, with regret, whether frankly this time around it is yet again a lost cause and whether the nob le Lord might wish to consider not moving it through the process.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a lifelong season ticket holder at Stoke City, so I am used to lost causes—but you do win occasionally. Sooner or later, I will win with this, I am quite sure about that.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not think that I will give way again, much as I enjoy the interventions, but “holes” and “stop digging” occur to me every time someone intervenes. People will expect me to move on.

I noted what the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, said about principle. I think he was basically saying that the Labour Party is driven by principle irrespective of whether it works, whereas the Conservative Party is more pragmatic. I certainly am not ashamed of the principles that I have stuck to during my career. I have noticed, in talking to one or two opponents of this Bill—and there are only one or two opponents—that I learn more about the Tory party the older I get; they have a deep underlying principle at stake. It is only for a small proportion, but a good few of them in here: their principle is taking the word “conservative” literally to mean “do not change anything”. I had a word with them—it was a private conversation so I will not reveal any names. A Tory came to me to say he was sorry but he was not able to support the Bill. I asked why not, and he said “Well, I am a proper conservative: I am not even that keen on the 1832 Reform Act.” That is, I have to acknowledge, a proper Conservative. Of course, it is at complete variance with the Tory party—I am in awe of its skills in that it manages to do somersaults on leaderships, policies and anything else as long as it keeps itself in office; I have noticed that over the years.

A number of people also mentioned the possibility of more time for this Bill. I am very grateful for the suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, which is one that has crossed my mind from time to time. She was completely misrepresented by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan—I think, I am sorry if I am wrong—who said that she was recommending breaking the law. She was not recommending doing that at all; if she was, then so was the Leader of the House when she proposed a suspension of the by-elections, which I referred to and which was carried. That was precisely what the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was saying: there is maybe a case for the House deciding to suspend the by-elections while this Bill, or maybe its successor, is being considered. That seems to be a perfectly proper, sensible and quite persuasive argument as far as I am concerned. I hope that the House might be asked to make a decision of that sort and that it would be desirable.

I noted another couple of points that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, made. One of them, which I have to say I do not think was very persuasive, was that because we have a hereditary monarchy, we need to keep hereditary people in the House of Lords. The reason we have a constitutional monarchy, as much as anything else, is because the monarch absolutely eschews any kind of legislative power. When was the last time a monarch said no to a Bill? I think it was Queen Anne; I seem to have been told about that once. We debated all this on Tuesday with the dissolution Bill. At all costs, the monarch must not be involved in political and law-making matters, but the 90 hereditary Peers in this House are intimately involved in passing laws which the rest of us have to abide by. So I found that a pretty weak argument.

One argument made by the noble Lord, Lord True, was not so much weak as inconsistent. He has said several times, from the Front Bench but also from the Back Benches, that, as far as the House of Lords was concerned, he did not agree with piecemeal change. He argued that we needed major changes and major comprehensive reforming proposals. But I noticed that he said in winding up that this Bill was not a trivial Bill—that it was a very fundamental Bill about the nature of the House of Lords. So I can only say to the noble Lord, Lord True: which is it? If it is a major constitutional Bill, which is what he is rather suggesting, it is something he might at least want the House to debate, consider and determine.

He was also wrong to say that the Government’s position over these past five years and four Bills was unchanged. The Government’s position was not unchanged; they kept moving the goalposts or changing the excuses. I was told, first, that the Government did not have time for the Bill because of the Brexit debate that was going on and because everything was very busy. The next time, I was told that it could not go on because of the Burns report on the size of the House—I think that was one of the arguments deployed by the noble Lord, Lord Young—so it was premature to discuss it at that time. Now we are being told that we do not have time to discuss it because it is a major change—despite the fact that the Minister has said that he is in favour of major changes, not piecemeal ones. So, I have had difficulty in following some of the arguments.

The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, also argued that on the doorstep in north Shropshire, or wherever, he did not see people demanding a change to the hereditary by-election system in the House of Lords. Hold the front page—of course he would not have seen that. I have been canvassing longer than him, because I am older than him, but let me tell him that on the doorstep in most of the by-elections I have been involved in, the Government never mention any of the legislation going through Parliament at the time. Indeed, many people—including, I am sure, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan—voted on Tuesday for Second Reading of the dissolution Bill. It is a very important Bill in my book, but I very much doubt whether the people of north Shropshire are lying awake at night worrying about the dissolution Bill. It is a most absurd basis on which to reject a piece of legislation: to say that we should not do anything about it in this House because, at 8 pm, when “Coronation Street” has just finished and someone comes to the door, people do not start talking about the House of Lords hereditary Peers Bill. I am at a loss with some of these arguments.

People will be missing their trains. All I can say is, let us respect the overwhelming view of the people in this House and get this Bill on the statute book.

Money Laundering

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness will probably be aware, in 2018 we created a helpfully named quango oversight group called OPBAS, the professional body supervision group. It produces an annual report, which is always hard hitting on any failures—as indeed its most recent one was. This illustrates that we are entirely self-critical, to ensure that we are watching these developments carefully.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, in assisting the World Alliance of International Financial Centers, I have found that while we may not think that the UK, as a non-EU financial centre, is a money laundering hub, apparently the rest of the world does. Might inconsistent definitions globally between regulators, legal jurisdictions and international law about who or what is a money launderer be a major part of the problem? As a financial centre, we should ensure the same levels of compliance for all industries, including the property sector, to dispel the notion that money launderers’ illicit money or investments can be under cover here.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, it is a harsh judgment to say that we are a honeypot for international money launderers. We are one of the largest financial centres in the world, so the volume of money passing through our system is colossal. We have been judged by the FATF as one of the most effective regulators of this area in the world. We have the second- highest level of fines so far. As I mentioned in response to earlier questions, we continue to review the situation carefully. For example, at the moment we are looking at Companies House legislation to make sure that registrations there are more carefully vetted.

House of Lords: Appointments Process

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, ensuring the reputation of the House of Lords as a component part of the constitution is essential. However, it is right that our contribution should be reviewed periodically to ensure that we continue being a force for good and a resource central to our democracy.

When addressing the Cross Benches as Prime Minister once upon a time, Sir John Major was clear that it should be reform from within and not have reform imposed. He had the integrity of your Lordships’ House in mind. The appointments process, our numbers and how to address that, and the question of hereditary by-elections are the three elements that require the most immediate attention to rescue it from any suggestion of disrepute or irrelevance.

The appointments process should become a creature of the House on a statutory basis, reporting to the House, with all suggestion of patronage removed. A committee made up of no more than six to eight Members, drawn from the main political parties and the Cross Benches, should report to the House with the recommendations of the Prime Minister of the day that reflect party election results, with the monarch’s final approval. Applicants could come through the process as now.

Whatever emerges on this, nothing other than fully fledged support and a fair wind for the re-re-rerun of the Private Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, will do, and that is before we reduce our numbers—if necessary in a draconian cull—or the House will have to be redrawn from scratch. I add in conclusion only that there is a key role for the communications unit in better explaining the positive elements of our contribution in this place.