Brexit: Article 50 Period Extension Procedure

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am not aware of the Solicitor-General making those comments. I have not seen them; I have been briefing for this session and listening to the debate in the House of Commons. The procedures of the House of Commons are a matter for the Speaker and the property of the House, and nobody is in any doubt about that.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

Can the Minister confirm whether any extension of Article 50 could be rescinded on the same terms as the original Article 50 was applied for?

[Lord Callanan]

If the noble Lord is asking whether it can be withdrawn once it has been agreed, I do not think so. We are allowed to apply for an extension, and it has to be agreed unanimously. Once that is done, we will need to amend the appropriate legislation in this country, which is the EU withdrawal Act.

Further Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Despite the chuntering from a sedentary position from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the noble Lord speaks great sense—as he does on so many things. It would make no sense whatever to have European Parliament elections because we will not be members of the EU going forward and, indeed, the legislation no longer exists on the UK statute book.

While these discussions continue at the European level, work continues domestically to prepare ourselves for all negotiated outcomes. The Government have undertaken extensive work to identify the primary legislation essential to deliver our exit from the EU in different scenarios. The Government are also making good progress on laying statutory instruments to ensure a functioning statute book for exit day. Over 450 statutory instruments have been laid to date, which is over 75% of all SIs required for exit day. Of these, almost half have been sent to the sifting committees of both Houses.

The Government are committed to ensuring that we have a functioning statute book for when we leave the EU, while also ensuring that legislation receives appropriate scrutiny. Once again I place on record my thanks, for their valuable and extensive work, to the committees chaired by the noble Lords, Lord Trefgarne and Lord Cunningham.

I can only reiterate that this Government stand firm on their commitment not to second-guess the result of the 2016 referendum by holding yet another people’s vote. Noble Lords will be well versed in these arguments now but, nevertheless, I will quickly recap.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

Could the Minister clarify one point? Was Mr Alberto Costa MP sacked, or did he resign, over his attempt to have EU citizens’ rights in the event of no deal ring-fenced? What is the Government’s view on this amendment—do they support it or not?

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is asking me to comment on what happens in the other place. My understanding—it is no more than that; I have not spoken to him—is that Alberto Costa resigned following the long-standing tradition that members of the Government and PPSs do not table amendments to government Motions. I also understand, however, that the Government are accepting the amendment put forward—such is the logic of government.

When we held the referendum, the Government pledged to respect the result, whatever the outcome. We repeated this commitment once the result was delivered, and this Government, as well as the Opposition, were elected on a manifesto maintaining this same commitment: to uphold the result of the 2016 referendum. Even though the Opposition seem to be U-turning on their manifesto commitment, we still stand by ours. Indeed, as the PM said yesterday, it is,

“the very credibility of our democracy”,—[Official Report, Commons, 26/2/19; col. 168.]

that we jeopardise if we break our explicit promises.

Brexit: Article 50

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, as far as I am aware, the Government have no policy on the dining companions of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. I understand that the opinions of the House were made very clear last week but ultimately this is a matter not for the Government but for the House authorities.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, to return to the Question on the Order Paper—if the House will allow me—do the Government expect to adopt a differing negotiating position on Brexit as a result of the significant number of states which are querying the terms we have with the WTO?

[Lord Callanan]

No, our negotiating position remains exactly as set out in the White Paper.

Brexit: No Deal

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I interpret them in the same way that I interpret all comments made by Michel Barnier. Of course his comments of yesterday are welcome, but they need to be followed up with action. We have produced a proposal in the form of the Chequers proposal. We have set it out in a White Paper and we have transmitted it to our European partners. We are actively talking to other European Governments about it. We have compromised, but if there is to be an agreement, there now needs to be similar movement and compromise on the part of the EU. Actions will speak louder than words.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I understand that the Prime Minister is against the idea of having EU customs officials on the UK side of the border. Will that affect the UK immigration officials working in Gare du Nord?

[Lord Callanan]

I do not want to go into the specifics of negotiations at the moment, but we are negotiating hard. Clearly, customs is an outstanding area where we need to reach agreement with the European Union. We are looking for pragmatic, sensible solutions.

UK-EU Future Relationship: Young Voters

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think that if there was a referendum, people would vote to leave just the same. Anyway, we are not going to have a referendum, so we are not going to find out. We are going to put the deal that we negotiate to the House of Commons, as is proper in a democracy, and it will take a decision about whether it accepts it or not.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, will the Government give an undertaking that in the event of a referendum on the final outcome, nobody will be disenfranchised, particularly in relation to the 15-year rule?

[Lord Callanan]

We do not need to give an assurance on such matters because we are not going to have another referendum.

Brexit: Logistics Industry

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. As the Prime Minister said in her Munich speech, our offers for the guarantees of security in Europe are unconditional and we look forward to a close and productive security, foreign affairs and defence partnership with our EU partners.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, 9 May is Victory Day, which will be attended by all those who were part of winning the Second World War. Will a Minister be present at this memorial?

[Lord Callanan]

I have no idea.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

Will the Minister address one point when summarising? Has consideration has been given to the wording of the meaningful vote? If so, what will it be?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Jay, was a little modest, because it was he who was chairing the European Union Committee at the time when it produced its excellent analysis of what it would mean for there to be no deal and for us to leave on WTO terms. We would have to rapidly set up customs posts around our market. Indeed, as he said, it would also mean no protection or continuation of residence, work or health rights for UK citizens living in the EU or, indeed, for EU citizens resident here. In the latter case, of course, we could pass domestic legislation to safeguard their position but we could not do the same to help UK nationals abroad because no deal would also mean no transition period.

I am sure that for business, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, has just spelled out, that would be a catastrophic outcome. It would mean that in addition to what it would mean for their order books—a rush to set up customs, VAT and all the other stuff that goes with that—I maintain that it would entail a jolt to our economy that would make 2008 look like a kiddies’ party. So a decision to depart from the EU in those circumstances is one to be taken by Parliament, not by the Prime Minister nor even by her Cabinet. The amendment is aimed to ensure that any such decision—coming out without a deal—would be made by Parliament, and bring the no deal scenario within the ambit of the amended Clause 9(1).

We accept that the Government are working very hard to ensure that we do not depart without a deal, and I trust that in those circumstances, they will accept the amendment.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

Does the noble Baroness share a concern regarding UK citizens on the continent? She mentions transition. Does she recognise that there may be a problem for Parliament? The Dutch Government have appealed against a ruling by a Dutch court on 7 February to refer a case regarding a UK citizen to the ECJ. The ECJ agreed to take the case, the Dutch Government then appealed and the ECJ is waiting for confirmation whether it will be put back to them. The problem is that if the ECJ takes its fast-track route on adjudication, it will be a four-month process; if it takes the normal time for the ECJ to consider the issue, it will be 15 months, which potentially plays havoc with the issue of UK and EU citizens and their acquired rights within the European Union. Does she recognise that problem?

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I absolutely recognise that. There are a number of issues which we hope will be part of the agreement. In business, there are what are called goods already on the market, which I believe the transition agreement will cover. There is the arrest warrant. A number of countries forbid any of their nationals being extradited to a non-EU member state, so we could find that if someone who commits murder here hops off to a member state, unless we have this all agreed in the transition deal, they would be free. I understand that the negotiations will say that where a case has started on its track towards the ECJ, let it finish.

There is a raft of things where, if we come out with a bump in the night, and wake up on 30 March with no deal, it will not just be a fall from the bed, it will be a substantial disadvantage. That is why I am confident that we will have a deal, but therefore I am confident that the Minister will accept the amendment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bilimoria]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has made a point that is always made when I make this argument. But this is not a normal situation. This is a decision that is permanent, which will affect generations to come. It is a decision that has not been made with the full information. It is a decision where already in two years so much has come to light. It is a decision that depends on so many negotiations. Yes, we need another referendum so that people, with the full information, can have the option to make a proper decision, including changing their minds.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, this has the potential to be extremely divisive for the nation. We need a referendum to ensure that we do not land up, through this whole process, with a divided nation for a very long time.

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, how much more divided can the country be than it is now? That is what this wretched referendum has done: it has divided our country. Our House is divided in a way that it never has been before.

[Viscount Waverley]

That is why we need a second referendum or a vote on the final outcome.

[Lord Bilimoria]

We do, because if what I feel will happen happens and people decide to remain in the EU, we will have a future that is much better than if we crash out. When people voted to leave they did not say to the Government, “We allow you to leave on any basis”. It was not a carte blanche. It was not a blank sheet of paper.

We all loved my noble friend Lord Lisvane’s story about his aunts. One of the most well-known philosophers in the world today, at the University of Cambridge, gave me this analogy. He said: you go to see a doctor with your arm hurting and you say, “Please, doctor, take away the pain from my arm”. The doctor takes you into the operating theatre. You come out of the operating theatre and the doctor has cut off your arm. You say, “I did not ask you to cut my arm off”. The doctor says, “Well, you told me to stop the pain. I have done what you told me to. You did not say I should not do this or that”. That is the exact analogy: if we leave on any basis we will be letting down the British people.

Call it a referendum part 2 or a second referendum—we have to allow the people a chance if we are a truly democratic nation.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Viscount Waverley Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

We need these amendments because we simply do not trust the Government to have an adequate parliamentary procedure in place unless Parliament exerts itself in advance. That is why the amendments of the noble Viscount and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, which discuss time, are so important.

I want to highlight two issues in respect of the procedure that we need to follow when the Prime Minister submits the withdrawal treaty to Parliament. First, there must be adequate time for Parliament to debate it, because there can be no democracy unless there is time to discuss it. We should remember that Clement Attlee famously said that democracy is government by discussion, but this Government are very keen on closing down discussion. Your Lordships and the other place need to put in place arrangements to ensure that there will be adequate time. To my mind, those arrangements are crucial. At the moment in the existing Clause 9, even as amended by Dominic Grieve’s amendment in the House of Commons, there is no requirement in respect of the time that must be given to Parliament to reach these momentously important decisions. That needs to be put right.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

When the noble Lord talks about timing and Parliament, is he also anticipating that Select Committees will be given time to consider their issues and report back to the House so that Parliament can consider the appropriate course?

[Lord Adonis]

The noble Viscount raises a very important issue which has not been debated in either House of Parliament at all so far—whether there should be a Select Committee procedure when the withdrawal treaty is presented. That is exactly the kind of issue we should be discussing, and not at one o’clock in the morning.

The second issue, which goes to the heart of the bona fides of the Government, is the options that Parliament will debate and reach decisions on when the withdrawal treaty is presented. The Prime Minister has said repeatedly—indeed, the Minister has repeated it—that the only option that Parliament will be given when the treaty is presented is between accepting the treaty or rejecting it and leaving without a treaty on World Trade Organization terms. That is a completely false, misleading and unacceptable statement of what the options facing Parliament should be. Parliament, which is sovereign, can and should itself decide what options will be available to it. An absolutely credible option—indeed, in my view it is the most credible option facing the country—is that we simply stay in the European Union. The idea that this sovereign Parliament will not be allowed to consider that as an option is totally unacceptable. There obviously should be an option. The reason why we need to enshrine that as an option, as other noble Lords have said, is precisely that the Government, by executive fiat, are seeking to rule it out. That is unacceptable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

We are debating these issues precisely because of the referendum. However, the referendum is not the last word on parliamentary democracy; nor is it the last word, crucially, on a treaty which the people did not even see two years ago when they voted. They could not see it because it had not been negotiated.

[Viscount Waverley]

Would the noble Lord wish to encourage the Minister to comment on the effect on timing if the ECJ makes a ruling in relation to the rights of UK citizens, inasmuch as we will still be citizens of the European Union and that ruling may come during the transition period or the implementation period that will be announced after the agreement has been agreed to?

[Lord Adonis]

Perhaps the Minister may say more about this when he replies. Given the complexity and difficulty of these negotiations, it is perfectly possible that the withdrawal treaty will not be submitted until quite late. I would not be surprised if we do not see the withdrawal treaty this side of Christmas, so it will not be a long period. If the withdrawal treaty is presented late, the Government should seek an extension of the Article 50 period so that there is adequate parliamentary scrutiny, debate and opportunity for decision on that treaty. If the Government were serious about respecting the sovereignty of Parliament, the Minister would announce that there will be at least a three-month period between the submission of the withdrawal treaty and the expiration of the date on which we leave the European Union.

I know he will not give that statement because we all know what he seeks to do. He is an ardent Brexiteer and he simply wants us out, come what may, on 29 March next year. He is not worried about parliamentary processes or democracy; he is one of that group of far-right nationalists who simply want us out. Our job is to see that Parliament is respected and that it is the British people and their parliamentary representatives who take this decision, but they cannot do that if they do not have adequate time to debate it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

A much wiser and older head than me, Merlyn Rees, once told me that, when listening to a Minister’s replies, I should forget everything before the “but”; I include in that everything before the “however”. What follows the “however” gives the Government executive powers to take a course of action completely opposite to the amendments that say that a vote should be done before the European Parliament votes. Of course the Government do not control the timetable for the European Parliament, but they control the timetable for this Parliament. We are asking for the vote to be given substance and time—rather than being a theoretical meaningful vote—as well as an assurance that the decision will be taken by this Parliament before we have to sit and watch the European Parliament voting on the deal. Can the Minister address that issue and explain to us why it is impossible to do that simple thing?

[Viscount Waverley]

Before the noble Lord sits down, will he pass comment about not just the European Parliament but the EU national parliaments? Will they have a yes or no, or ask their Governments to go back to the Council to keep at it?

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

Let us take it one step at a time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Everything I say is meaningful. Although we can look again at elements of the power, we will not be removing it from the Bill in its entirety, as Amendment 194, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who I am glad to see is still with us, would have it.

It is prudent to keep Clause 9 as part of this Bill. We do not yet know the shape or the outcome of future negotiations. It is crucial that we have the necessary legislative mechanisms available to us to fully implement the withdrawal agreement in time for exit day. There may well be a number of more technical separation issues which will need to be legislated for, depending on the shape of the final agreement. It is long established that where legislation is intended to make smaller, more detailed changes, secondary legislation can be an appropriate vehicle. It is also not uncommon for the principles of an international agreement to be implemented through secondary legislation.

Let me give an example. The Nuclear Installations (Liability for Damage) Order 2016 implements the 2004 protocol to the Convention on Third Party Liability in the Field of Nuclear Energy—a matter with which I am sure noble Lords are fully familiar.

To be clear, however, Clause 9 is not intended to implement major elements of the withdrawal agreement. I understand that this distinction might seem a little abstract so I will demonstrate with a few more illustrative examples, although with the caveat that we cannot know for certain until the withdrawal agreement has been finalised. Clause 9 may be required, for example, to legislate for the position of ongoing administrative proceedings when we leave the EU. This is a broad basket of more technical issues such as proceedings on competition and antitrust under regulation 1/2003 or procedures on the concentration of undertakings/mergers under regulation 139/2004. These are quite complex, technical issues that do not need to be put into any Bill but must be legislated for.

Another area that Clause 9 could be used for relates to the privileges and immunities afforded by the UK to the EU, its institutions, bodies and staff post exit. These are a standard feature of international law and are generally considered necessary for the proper functioning of international organisations. Privileges and immunities for the EU are currently implemented under protocol 7 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. After exit, the EU will continue to require privileges and immunities to cover any functions that it has during the implementation period or for winding down its existing operations, and our agreement on privileges and immunities will need to be implemented in domestic legislation. If noble Lords would like further detail, I encourage them to consult the Hansard record of Committee in the other place where further details were offered on potential examples.

I do not need to remind noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, that the amendment to Clause 9 that was approved in the other place means that the clause can be used only subject to the prior enactment of a statute by Parliament approving the final terms of the withdrawal of the UK from the EU. That is an exceptional check on the power, and of course we stand by that.

I have been left in no doubt of the strength of feeling in the House about Clause 9. As with other contentious areas of the Bill, I look forward to meetings and discussions with noble Lords to see what can be done ahead of Report. With that in mind, I hope noble Lords will not pursue their amendments.

[Viscount Waverley]

The Minister referred to the CRaG procedure. He may not be aware that the House of Commons put out an Explanatory Note on many of the issues that we are discussing today. I would like to ask his opinion on a line from it:

“Either House could also use the CRAG procedure to object to ratification of the agreement, and in the case of the Commons, indefinitely block it”.


Would he care to comment?

[Lord Callanan]

If the noble Viscount will forgive me, I have not read the details of that. I am sure his quote is accurate but I would like to read the whole thing before I comment on it in detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

There are some technical provisions that we may want to use Clause 9 to implement, subject to the provisions of Amendment 7. There is also the political imperative that the House of Commons considered this matter closely and decided to keep Clause 9 in the Bill, albeit modified. We want to respect the will of the House of Commons.

[Viscount Waverley]

Will the noble Lord write to me on the particular issue he raised on the CRaG procedure for the record?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course, I would be delighted to do so.