Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Grand Committee

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, it is disappointing that no financial framework details were included in the Bill, as they should have been. Amendment 125, which will be spoken to by my noble friend Lord Offord, would ensure that the Bill cannot come into force until the Secretary of State has laid before Parliament, together with a Motion for resolution in each House, a revised financial framework document. This would improve transparency and accountability, which are in short supply in this Bill, as has been noted by many noble Lords.

I have also added my name to Amendments 126 and 127 in this group, which would essentially require the Government to explain the impact of their proposals on the number of jobs in Aberdeen and would require a report on the cost and viability of their net-zero targets. I fear that the negative approach to the oil and gas industry based in Aberdeen will lead to more job losses than will be created by the location of GBE in that city. I am also not at all sure that the type of people being made redundant by oil and gas enterprises being forced to destroy economically beneficial businesses are the same type of people GBE will wish to recruit. It is clear that the Government’s decision to locate in Aberdeen was intended to mitigate the damage to that city’s economy, but I am not at all sure that that will be the case. I support my noble friend Lord Hamilton in calling the Government to account on these matters through tabling these two amendments.

As I said at Second Reading, we cannot rely on renewables to continue to decarbonise the grid, or even begin to replace our much larger industrial energy consumption, which is still dependent largely on oil and gas. My noble friend Lord Frost explained on 14 November, and again today, how serious a problem the intermittency of renewables is. It is essential that the Government think again before confirming the premature ending of oil and gas, at least until more serious attention has been paid to the possibilities that nuclear may offer. In this regard, we should be a little bit more like France.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I speak to the two amendments in my name. The first, Amendment 126, is about the jobs in Aberdeen. Unfortunately, this amendment gets involved only in the number of jobs that are created by Great British Energy in Aberdeen. As my noble friend Lord Trenchard has already referred to, it does not make any reference to the number of jobs that have already been destroyed by the Secretary of State for Energy in not granting any more licences in the North Sea, which will have—

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on his clear and well-argued introduction of his amendments in this group, to most of which I have added my name. As he said, the taxpayer must be able to see what the Secretary of State is doing with £8.3 billion of his money. State-owned companies do not have a great track record in realising a strong, positive return on their invested assets.

Unless GBE does that, it is likely to have a negative, rather than a positive, effect on wholesale electricity prices. Amendment 62 will ensure transparency on that. GBE intends to invest in and de-risk projects involving new clean energy technologies. It is clearly necessary to have full transparency as to the rate of return on each of the investments that GBE achieves. The amendment would require GBE to consider every single investment it makes in terms of the impact that it will have on electricity prices in the future. Does the Minister not agree that this would be a good discipline for GBE? Amendment 64 would ensure that we have such transparency on the whole portfolio of GBE’s investments across the board.

Amendment 71 contains a requirement for a cost-benefit analysis of the price of electricity generated by each of its investments compared with that of electricity generated by gas. We certainly need to know that. Many of us think that we are already saddling the consumer and industry with unnecessarily expensive electricity. The grid is always bound to draw electricity from renewable sources when they are available, in priority to gas. This means that gas power stations are constantly being fired up and down, and are seldom operated at full capacity. This distorts the price of gas, which in turn distorts the price of electricity because gas power stations produce much cheaper electricity when operated consistently at or near full capacity than they do under the current modus operandi. The price of gas used in the cost-benefit analysis required by this amendment ought to be the price achievable from constant operation rather than the distorted price resulting from prioritisation of renewable sources.

I also refer briefly to Amendment 75. It is clear that the main purpose of GBE’s collaboration with the Crown Estate is to build a large number of offshore wind farms in coastal waters. This amendment will require GBE to consider carefully the environmental impact of its activities on marine life and inshore fisheries, among others.

The Government have made much of their determination to cut energy bills. Their refusal to accept Amendment 71 and other amendments would show that they are less than certain that their plans will result in lower energy prices. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I was speaking to the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, the other day. This was when he was chasing around after the chancellorship of Oxford University. I said to him that I thought he would serve his country much better in Washington than in Oxford. I congratulate him on becoming our ambassador in Washington. I think he will do a very good job.

I mention the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, because a quote attributed to him is that, “When politicians try to pick winners, the losers invariably find the politicians”. People should recognise that the track record of politicians in trying to pick winners is absolutely abysmal. Invariably, political considerations and jobs come into it; profitability is the last thing that is ever considered.

Therefore, it is essential that we support these amendments. They are asking for some degree of accountability for Great British Energy, which will have billions of taxpayers’ money. If we are not very careful, it will go to all the projects that have been rejected by the private sector as not being viable and will invariably lose money. That should be of great concern to us all because it discredits government and wastes taxpayers’ money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, although I have already spoken extensively about the need for GBE to pay much more attention to nuclear power, I am glad that we now have a separate nuclear group of amendments. My Amendment 85B requires GBE to consult with GBN prior to investing in nuclear energy projects. A reader of the Bill and of the Explanatory Notes would probably take the view that it is not the Government’s intention that GBE should have any involvement with nuclear power. The word “nuclear” does not occur in the Bill and occurs only once in the Explanatory Notes, which inform the reader that the Secretary of State’s powers to give directions to GBE are consistent with the powers the Government have to direct comparable institutions such as GBN. Does the Minister agree that it is a bit of a stretch to argue that GBE and GBN are comparable institutions?

We have been told that GBE will be capitalised with £8.2 billion for the purposes of making investments in green energy. As I pointed out at Second Reading, a look at GBN’s accounts shows that it had only £342 million on its balance sheet at 31 March 2023. How can these two bodies be regarded as comparable?

On 17 December, the Minister told the Committee that

“we also need nuclear as an essential baseload for our energy generation, and gas as the flexible energy generation which you can turn on and off”.—[Official Report, 17/12/24; col. 177.]

I will make two observations on the Minister’s statement. First, to use gas power stations only as a balancing item for renewable energy is a very expensive way of using them, because they are constantly being fired up or down. Gas’s role in electricity pricing also distorts the price upwards, in a manner most damaging to the consumer’s interests.

I will not comment on CCUS, except to say that if only the Government would consider a funding commitment for nuclear of even one-tenth of that which they have made for CCUS—£21.7 billion—it would make an enormous difference to the prospects of British nuclear energy projects becoming viable and attracting funding from the private sector.

I was happy to hear the Minister confirm that we need nuclear as an essential baseload for our energy generation, but he has not convinced me that he recognises the urgent need to prioritise new nuclear projects now. He also said:

“Great British Energy and Great British Nuclear are already talking very closely together, and he can be assured that this will continue”.—[Official Report, 17/12/24; col. 209.]


This may be true, but the Government’s intention seems to be for GBE to concentrate initially on its clean energy superpower mission. The statement after the first energy mission board did not even mention nuclear at all. The Minister said at the Peers’ drop-in session before Second Reading that he did not expect GBE to invest in nuclear projects in its early years, and, as I mentioned in an earlier debate, he did not answer the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton, clearly when she asked him whether GBE might invest in an SMR project in South Yorkshire.

It is hard to escape the impression that, besides the two gigawatt projects at Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C, the Government see other nuclear as something that comes later—first SMRs and then later, AMRs—ignoring the important fact that some AMR technologies are more advanced than some SMR technologies. Can the Minister tell the Committee why GBN is prioritising SMRs over AMRs, which is surely an illogical approach, as some AMR technologies are more advanced than SMR technologies? Those that are ready now for commercialisation are being artificially held back.

I blame the Government for continuing the approach of the last Government in failing to recognise the potential of supporting a much quicker move to market for some AMR technologies, which are being sidelined by the limited scope and budget, and the slow pace, of the Government’s AMR research, development and demonstration programme, whose aims are merely to demonstrate high-temperature gas reactor technology by the early 2030s, in time for potential commercial AMRs to support net zero by 2050.

My Amendment 85B would ensure that GBE recognises that nuclear projects must form a part of its early investments. Amendment 85C would require GBE to monitor the impact of its nuclear investments on its ability to attract investment from the private sector in nuclear energy projects. I believe the latter could be substantial. Why does the Minister think that two important gigawatt projects initiated by Japanese companies—Toshiba’s NuGen project and Hitachi’s Horizon project—failed? Does the Minister not recognise how much better our energy security would be if either or both those projects had proceeded to successful deployment?

I have also tabled Amendment 118C, which adds a reporting requirement for GBE to undertake a review of the impact of this Act on the competitiveness of the UK nuclear industry compared to other countries. If GBE working with GBN acts as a catalyst in the adoption of new nuclear energy projects, their competitiveness will progressively increase compared with other countries. In September 2024, the International Atomic Energy Agency revised upwards its annual projections for the expansion of nuclear power for a fourth successive year. World nuclear capacity is now projected to increase by 2.5 times the current capacity by 2050, in the IAEA’s high-case scenario, including a significant contribution from small modular reactors.

The website Global Petrol Prices shows some interesting statistics. The price of electricity for businesses in the fourth quarter of 2024 in the UK was 51.7 cents per kilowatt hour, double that in Germany, where it was 23.5 cents per kilowatt hour, and three times that in France, where it was 17.4 cents per kilowatt hour. RTE, the electricity transmission network of France, showed that last Saturday nuclear accounted for 73% of French electricity generation, hydroelectric power for 12%, solar power for 7%, and wind power a mere 3%. It is very clear that the enormous cost of electricity for British businesses is now massively reducing their competitiveness compared with their French competitors. The more nuclear power we have, the more competitive it will become, and as the cost of electricity falls, the more competitive our businesses will become.

Does the Minister not agree that the economic growth that we all need so urgently can only be achieved by a radical adjustment to our energy policy? We need rapidly to commission more nuclear capacity—large, medium and small. I am not sure that all these amendments are perfect, but if he does not like my amendments as drafted, can he come back with some better ones to ensure that GBE, working with GBN, will ensure that much greater support will be given to nuclear projects so that nuclear can play its proper part—a much larger part—in our energy sector in the decades ahead? I beg to move.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, it seems quite extraordinary that no reference is made in this Bill to nuclear because, let us face it, if you want to have clean energy generation, nuclear is the only thing that is available at the moment. My noble friend Lord Trenchard must be right when he says that we should be much more seriously considering both small modular reactors and large ones for our energy supply in future, because that is going to be the only way we really get clean energy. I find it quite extraordinary that this has all been parked somewhere separately when it all should be integrated. We should certainly be looking at the potential for nuclear, because that is where the future lies.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lady McIntosh that the Bill is defective so far in terms of parliamentary scrutiny and involvement. I have added my name to Amendment 51, so ably proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, and my noble friend Lady Noakes. It requires the Secretary of State to prepare the statement of strategic priorities for GBE within six months. That is quite an easy target. Perhaps when the Minister thinks about this—of course, I am very optimistic that he will come back with his own proposal to deal with the lack of accountability—he could suggest a shorter timescale within which the Secretary of State might lay out the statement of strategic priorities. As has been said, at Second Reading many noble Lords expressed the view that it is a pity that that is not in the Bill.

I apologise to the Committee that I was not able to be present on the first day, when we discussed the objects which refer to clean energy but with little detail. It is very unclear, as other noble Lords have said, what Great British Energy is going to do and particularly how it will relate to other companies and entities in the same space.

I also support Amendment 52 in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes. It is right not only to prepare the statement of strategic priorities but to give both Houses 40 days to approve it or not. On reflection, I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that it perhaps should be subject to the affirmative rather than the negative procedure.

I look forward to hearing my noble friend Lord Effingham speak to Amendment 57. He rightly proposes that the consultations with devolved Administrations should take place before the publication of the statement of strategic priorities. However, this only goes to show how essential it is, as many of us believe, that we have a co-ordinated national strategy, given that devolution has taken place over many areas of our national life, as it would be cheaper and make more sense. But we are not in that place, and we have to take account of the settlement of the devolved Administrations that exists. So, it is obviously absolutely essential, and I hope the Minister will confirm that he will make sure that the policies put forward and GBE’s strategic priorities will not be squabbled over by the devolved Administrations.

My noble friend Lady Noakes, with her usual forensic expertise, has also identified that the articles of association of GBE need to make sure that it is able to prepare the strategic plans, and that the articles must empower the company to do that. It must reflect the Secretary of State’s statement of strategic priorities.

Lastly, I also support Amendment 119, proposed by my noble friend Lady Noakes, which deals with the accountability and other provisions which must not take effect until after the statement of strategic priorities is laid before Parliament.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I too support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. It strikes me that the real problem with the Bill is that if nothing happens with GB Energy, the Secretary of State intervenes. On the whole, politicians intervening in investment decisions does not have a very good history, and an awful lot of taxpayers’ money has been wasted. Therefore, it would be a very good idea if there was a system of reporting back to Parliament.

The real problem with the whole energy scene in this country is that the private sector is well in there already. I am not sure how committed these people are to energy, but they are certainly very good at crunching the numbers. Of course, with any project, they establish that the supply of, say, wind, is reasonably constant in a certain area. Then, the key thing is the feed-in tariff that they negotiate. That gives them a guaranteed cashflow. Among other things, with wind turbines they even managed to negotiate that they get paid when the wind is blowing and nobody wants the energy. So, if you can do that, it seems to be relatively easy to make money on these things.

If you want to put up wind turbines, there is no problem getting private finance. It is the more vexed areas of energy where you will find people with DeLoreans appearing, saying, “I’ve got a wonderful scheme all organised for carbon capture”, or something that is incredibly difficult in technological terms—or indeed nuclear fusion, come to that, which is another very hard nut to crack. It would be wonderful if we could have nuclear fusion power stations pumping out energy, but we are still a very long way from getting there. What guarantees do we have that taxpayers’ money will not be ploughed into these things and an awful lot of money completely wasted?

I would like to pick up some remarks from my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering. She was concerned that GB Energy would have great problems raising finance. That is not quite the way it works. You actually get tiered finance when it comes to some of these projects, and I can tell noble Lords what the tiers will be: a whole lot of outside investors will get their money back almost whatever happens, and all the high-risk capital will be produced by GB Energy. GB Energy will be the one that will lose absolutely everything if it goes wrong and make a minimal amount of money if it goes right.

We need to be very wary about all this, which is why I support these amendments. It is important that Parliament has some check on all this and is able to say whether it thinks it is a good idea or a bad one. That discipline on the Secretary of State will be very important. Otherwise, I see politicians wheeling off, backing all sorts of incredibly speculative ventures and losing taxpayers’ money as a result. I am not sure that anybody in this House wants to see that happen.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a director of two investment companies as stated in the register. I listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, in bringing forward his Amendment 1 and other amendments. I feel strongly, as he has suggested, that what has been agreed for the REUL Bill should also be acceptable for this Bill. Indeed, one of my later amendments makes the same point. As he said, the Bill is in some sense a carve-out from the REUL Bill dealing exclusively with financial services. As for his other amendments, I will not repeat the arguments I made in Committee, but I look forward to hearing whether the Minister can give any greater assurance to the House today than she did at that time.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 1. My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts does not seem to be with us, but I have collaborated with him over the retained EU law Bill, and I know his views are that Parliament has been collectively losing control of its agenda and that parliamentary sovereignty has been undermined. He has been chairman of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and he notices that more and more business goes through both Houses under statutory instruments. That is not really what we should be going along with in either House, and it is disappointing that the other House does not seem to worry too much about the fact that it is losing its sovereignty and its power to control legislation. That seems to be a fact we have to deal with.

I have repeated this very often, but unlike most people in your Lordships’ House, I campaigned to leave the EU. I often wonder what would have happened if the people who were really concerned about the fact that we were getting all this legislation from the EU—inevitably, I accept—which we could neither amend nor reject knew that we would substitute it with stuff in respect of which the Executive are given all the power that had previously lain in Brussels. If we had campaigned in the country and told people that that was what was going to happen, I am not at all certain that the referendum would have been won by the leave campaign.

It strikes me as very odd that when we talk about taking back control, it seems to exclude Parliament. It does not seem to have a desire—particularly the other place—to actually take back control of legislation, which is what I think we should be doing. It is time we brought this to a halt. I do not have any great optimism that that is going to happen, but I would be more than happy to support the noble Lord’s amendment if he presses it to a Division.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 38, in the name of my noble friend Lord Caithness, to which I have added my name. I was not here—because I was at a previous engagement—when the debate was held in this Room about merging the Animal Welfare Committee and the animal sentience committee. My noble friend the Minister made the point that the two committees did two different jobs and therefore there had be two different committees. That was really accepted rather too glibly. There is no reason why we should not keep one committee and give it two different jobs to do. It is a pity that we seem to be so dedicated to the spread of bureaucracy and quangos in this way, when the Government have made it clear that they do not really agree with that.

However, let us leave that and move on to the fact that there is obviously potential for conflict between the Animal Welfare Committee and the animal sentience committee, as outlined by my noble friend Lord Caithness. We have to do everything we can to avoid that and ensure that they work together—not in opposition to each other, which seems highly likely knowing the way that Whitehall works. I therefore sincerely hope that my noble friend the Minister will look hard at this amendment, because it has great value.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, although I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and my noble friend Lord Caithness that the committee should look at policy in the round, I regret that I cannot support Amendment 20 in her name and that of my noble friend Lady Fookes. I also strongly support the objective of my noble friends Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Hamilton of Epsom in their Amendment 2, previously debated, that the duties of the animal sentience committee could better be given to the existing Animal Welfare Committee.

As my noble friend Lord Forsyth said on 6 July:

“It feels as if this is just a bit of window dressing, a bit of virtue-signalling, which is actually going to create great problems for the Government.”


My noble friend the Minister told the Committee that the Government

“want the animal sentience committee and the Animal Welfare Committee to have a constructive relationship, but it is not quite as simple as saying that we could hand over the ASC’s responsibilities to the AWC with no legal powers to back them up.”

That would of course have been far better.

I have the highest regard for my noble friend Lord Benyon, but I found his explanation as to why we need two committees completely unconvincing. It is a disproportionate and unnecessary response to the Government’s manifesto commitment. Those animal rights activists who support the Bill claim that the public want it. If you tell the man or woman on the street that there is an Animal Welfare Committee already and ask if he or she thinks we should have a second committee, you will get a different answer. My noble friend said:

“It is important to remember that the two committees have distinct roles. The Animal Welfare Committee exists to provide advice to Defra and the devolved Administrations, whereas we are establishing the animal sentience committee to scrutinise policy decision-making across the whole of government. Any relationship between the two would need to support these two distinct functions.”—[Official Report, 6/7/21; cols. GC 337-8.]


I do not think these functions are distinct in any way. Without exception, noble Lords who spoke on 6 July asked him to come back with at least some definition of the committee on Report.

I also support Amendment 16, in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, which stated that the new requirements to consider animals as sentient beings in the formulation of policy should be limited to those areas covered by Article 13 of Title II of the Lisbon treaty. UK Parliaments have recognised the sentience of animals since the Cruel Treatment of Cattle Act 1822, and our animal welfare standards go far beyond what we were required to do under EU law. If the Government really think that they must establish a new quango of such dubious merit and opaque purpose, the four amendments in this group will at least restrict that quango’s activities to examining new policies under consideration rather than opening up the entire existing statute book to reconsideration at great expense.

Although I was unable to speak in the earlier debate, let me say that I also support Amendment 31, which would provide exceptions for religious rites and cultural traditions. Without that, a large part of Japanese cuisine —to which I am partial, having lived in that country for many years—would probably be deemed illegal.

I have added my name to Amendments 21 and 22 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. Amendment 21 could have been grouped with amendments that we have debated previously, which also sought to prohibit the committee reporting on established government policy. Amendment 22 would require the committee to obtain the consent of the Secretary of State before committing taxpayers’ funds.

I cannot support Amendments 27 and 41, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, because they assume that the committee’s answer to the question is binary—that is, yes or no. The existing draft at least raises the question of the extent to which the Government are having due regard to animal welfare in the formulation of policy. Surely this is an instance where the proportionality principle should be applied.

I strongly support Amendment 38, in the name of my noble friend Lord Caithness, to which I have added my name. If we must have two overlapping committees, at least the animal sentience committee should consult the Animal Welfare Committee and publish a note explaining its opinion on any report.

In Amendment 44, my noble friend Lord Mancroft seeks to find out what the Government might do in cases where the committee finds that they have not had due regard to the animal welfare consequences of any policy. Earlier, we debated the incorrect assumption of the Bill that any effect would be adverse. Obviously, any policy designed to make it easier for gamekeepers to cull predators has positive effects for the prey of those predators. I support my noble friend and look forward to the answer from my noble friend the Minister on this question.

I cannot support Amendment 46, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, because subsection 2(b) of the proposed new clause makes it clear that she intends that the committee’s remit should extend across government, whereas I believe that it should be limited to those areas that were previously covered by Article 13 of Title II of the Lisbon treaty, as I mentioned. Furthermore, the amendment raises the question of the other activities that the committee may have undertaken during any financial year.

There seems to be no limit to the scope and remit of the Bill. Unless it is appropriately restricted, the committee will need huge resources.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to my noble friend Lord Moylan’s amendment. It brings us back to the concern expressed on previous amendments about the committee’s composition—that people who feel very strongly about this will not necessarily share the broad spectrum of views on this whole issue. I have nothing against people being vegetarians or vegans but the reason why they are is because they cannot bear the thought of animals being killed to feed human beings. If we were to have a significant number of vegetarians and vegans on this committee, it might start producing rather strange judgments about animal sentience.

My noble friend Lord Moylan is absolutely right to express concern about this. This committee will have enormous power and its composition will be critical to the judgments it will come out with; that is why it is very important that it gets subjected to peer review and that others can comment about the judgments made by it. I am sure that my noble friend the Minister will say that he is determined to set this committee up in a way in which it is sensibly and broadly based and reflects all people who might have an interest in this matter, but of course it will be set up by statute and I have no doubt that subsequent Governments might have different views about its composition. That is why I think that we need some form of academic peer review so that this can be subjected to expert opinion from outside and have a bit more balance in some of its judgments. I support this amendment.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 28 and 42 in the name of my noble friend Lord Moylan; I have added my name to Amendment 28. As my noble friend pointed out in his impressive speech at Second Reading, and again today, our animal welfare legislation to date has not been based on any animals rights deriving from our recognition of their sentience; it has been based on our moral obligations as rational human beings endowed with conscience. I agree with my noble friend that the scientific basis for the recognition of sentience needs to be examined. I do not believe that sentience is something that one species has and another does not. I am sure that all forms of life possess a degree of sentience—perhaps even trees and plants. It is not the reason why we should look after animals well.

This Bill could become a Trojan horse and be used by activist groups to attack proper wildlife management, farming and the economic well-being and way of life of our rural communities. Throughout my life, I have noticed that those who genuinely care for wildlife are often the same people who engage in country pursuits and field sports. They are often the people who understand animals, birds and fish better than most. They are prominent among people who perform acts of kindness towards animals and are most determined to spare animals suffering. I worry that the Bill will be used against them and that our rich and diverse wildlife will suffer.

These amendments will ensure that the committee’s work is underpinned by robust academic findings. I ask my noble friend the Minister to confirm that the Government will accept them.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Viscount Trenchard and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard]

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has indeed accepted the amendment—

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

When it comes to the question of wasting time, surely voting on a Motion that has been withdrawn is a bigger waste of time than anything.

[Viscount Trenchard]

That was indeed the point I wished to make, and which my noble friend has made more eloquently than I could. But the noble Lord—