Wine (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2024
Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Moynihan
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My Lords, it is very difficult to follow the noble Baroness after such an erudite speech, but I have a few quick questions to put to my noble friend. As I see it, this statutory instrument is being introduced only because we need to meet the requirements and obligations on the marketing of wine in the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. There is nothing intrinsically necessary in the labelling of ice wine that would otherwise have required legislation.
I therefore turn to why we are doing this and why it was originally agreed. I am sure the Minister has had many a glass of fine ice wine, not least from Canada or Germany. The definition of ice wine is that the grapes are left on the vine, as my noble friend said, until the temperature drops to a specific level, which I think is between minus 8 degrees and minus 14 degrees Celsius, which allows the grapes to freeze naturally. Then, when the pressing takes place, they are quickly harvested and pressed while still frozen, the frozen water content remains in the form of ice crystals and only the concentrated sugary juice is extracted. If, by chance, the frost passes quite quickly and the pickers go to the same vineyard and take the grapes from the same vine during the day, when it is marginally above freezing, can that still be called ice wine?
Secondly, and related to that, the alternative method of making ice wine from grapes follows after the harvest: the grapes are harvested and then artificially frozen to a temperature similar to that used in the natural freezing on the vine method. Frozen grapes are pressed much the same and the concentrated juice is collected, similar to the process with the grapes frozen on the vine. They do not need to go through the technical stages that my noble friend has outlined; it could be exactly the same process. As I understand it, there is therefore a distinction to be made between ice wine that is made from grapes frozen after harvest and grapes frozen on the vine, although I challenge the Minister to tell me the difference, if he were given a blind tasting, between the two.
So the Minister comes forward with an excellent SI that says we cannot have anything that is
“a term similar to a term mentioned”
as ice wine. I would be interested to know what a similar term to ice wine might be. We always want to get the legislation exact. I imagine that a lengthy court case might ensue as a result of asking: what is “a term similar to” ice wine? Could it be called “frosty wine”, for example? Would that be “a term similar to” ice wine? I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Opposition, but I give the very fine officials who are sitting behind the Minister the opportunity to answer those two questions. It would be very helpful to me and, I am sure, to the Committee to know those answers.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for introducing this statutory instrument. I will not go into the details of what it is about; he explained it very well, as has the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, but I have a few points and questions.
As we have heard, the SI is largely to give effect to the relevant part of the CPTPP because Canada is the major producer of ice wine. I have been to a number of vineyards in Canada that produce ice wine. In fact, I did splash out, buy some and bring it back. If you have not tried ice wine, it comes in lovely slim bottles and is very nice indeed. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, my recollection—I could be wrong—from the tours of the vineyards is that it has to be harvested when it is frozen; you cannot defrost the grapes, then pick them. It is important that we are protecting what is a very distinctive product, so we clearly support this SI.
While we are on the issue of the CPTPP, are there going to be any other SIs coming through Defra regarding trade and the CPTPP? I do not know if the Minister knows the answer but it would be quite interesting to have a heads-up on that. We have had, as the noble Baroness said, other SIs on wine. There may not be any other way around this, and it is no criticism, but Defra seems to come up with a lot of small SIs. Does it have to be like that? Could we do them en bloc to be a bit more efficient?
I was interested that in the Minister’s introduction he talked about the fact that this product is only imported; we clearly do not make ice wine in this country. It would be interesting to know the impact of this SI. How much ice wine is imported into this country? I had never seen it until I went to Canada. What percentage would no longer be able to be marketed and what is the actual impact of this statutory instrument? It would be interesting to know if it has been a problem for the wine trade.
The Minister also mentioned the Welsh and Scottish instruments that are likely to come forward through their legislation. Other noble Lords also mentioned this and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about the timescales. I note that Defra’s response to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s concerns, in its report, explained that there are already rules in place which mean that this should not be a problem. Even so, we need to get all our legislative ducks in a row, so it would be interesting to know the likely timescales.
Finally, I support what the noble Baroness said about the Wine and Spirit Trade Association’s concerns regarding tax and excise duty. It has raised a really important point and I support her request to the Minister that this is discussed with the Treasury and that the department looks at this seriously.