Fur: Import and Sale

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Monday 22nd April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend is in very robust form, and I can see will be for many years ahead. I commit to providing a response to the consultation and the wider other brief as soon as I can.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, surely the Minister would agree that, in light of the new legislation that is coming in on the banning of the import of shark-fins and the progress of the Government-backed Private Member’s Bill on banning cruel puppy imports, the trade measures, such as a total ban on the import of fur and foie gras, which also safeguard animal welfare standards, should have equal priority. That is clearly not the case at the moment.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The Government made it clear in their manifesto commitment that in all our trade negotiations we will not compromise on our high environmental protection, animal welfare and food standards. The UK is rightly proud of the animal welfare standards that underpin our high-quality produce. Imports into the UK must comply with our existing import requirements, such as meeting the United Kingdom’s slaughter standards.

Farmers: Flooding Compensation

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 16th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I have recently attended a number of meetings on this specific subject, and the intention last week was to get the first element of this fund out and available to farmers. We have this issue under constant review and I hope that, if there are further announcements to make, we can make them very shortly.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I come back to the right reverend Prelate’s question about food security. The Minister talked about food production being constant and mentioned ELMS, but that also looks at flood relief schemes for farmers that take more land out of food production. The increase in climate change and the storms we have been seeing have really worrying implications for food security, and I genuinely do not think that measuring food production constants is going to solve the problem. We need a long-term food security plan that takes account of the implications of future storms and flooding.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be very well aware that there is a trade here between the environmental gains we are looking to enact and protecting our food production. One of the main aims of ELMS is to improve productivity, and a lot of the funding through ELMS is driving better productivity—higher yields from smaller areas of land—so that we can then allow land to be available for nature and improve our biodiversity.

Food Security

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend is correct. There is a presumption against planning on grade 1, grade 2 and grade 3 land. He is entirely right that solar energy and any other developments need to be appropriately sited to achieve the right result.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the NFU has asked the Government to identify opportunities to increase our market share of foods we can produce sustainably, including a commitment to source 50% of food into the public sector from British farms. Public procurement can support our food producers, so what are the Government doing to support farmers through procurement?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. This month the Environment Secretary appointed Will Quince MP as an independent adviser to support our ongoing work to improve food procurement in the public sector. His review will look at how we can increase the impact and reach of the existing government buying standards for food and catering services and promote our high standards in places such as residential care, hospitals and schools.

Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Committee stage
Thursday 14th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, for bringing forward Amendments 1 and 8. I was pleased to add my name to them. As he said, this was discussed at Second Reading and had a lot of support in the Chamber. We know that trends in the types and number of animals being exported can change quite a lot over time, so it is practical and sensible to ensure that the legislation can be kept up to date by revisiting the banned list in future. The noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, talked about the fact that changes can happen, and we need to be prepared for that.

It does not make any sense to me that if a future Government wanted to increase the list, they would have to go back to primary legislation. By putting it in the Bill, it can be done easily through affirmative secondary legislation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said. These amendments would allow that to happen. Taken together, we believe that Amendments 1 and 8 are a sensible measure that allows for future flexibility, and I hope that the Government will seriously consider adding it into the Bill. I cannot see why it is an unacceptable request.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Douglas-Miller) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, my noble friend Lady Fookes and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Hayman, for their interest in this Bill and for seeking to ensure that the ban on live exports for slaughter is comprehensive.

This is indeed an important question, which we carefully considered when developing this legislation. We consulted on the ban on live exports in 2020 and received over 11,000 responses. I reassure noble Lords that we received no evidence then, and have received none since, that a ban on any other species was necessary. The definition of “relevant livestock” covers all species for which there has been a significant slaughter export trade. In the 10 years prior to EU exit, the live export trade for slaughter and fattening mainly involved sheep and unweaned calves.

Several noble Lords noted in our earlier discussions that poultry is not within the scope of the Bill. We have had no exports of poultry for slaughter in recent years.

Noble Lords have also discussed this amendment in the context of alpacas, llamas and deer. The 2021 June agriculture census reported records of around 45,000 farmed deer, 12,000 alpacas and 1,000 llamas kept in the UK. These numbers are extremely low compared to the numbers of animals for which a significant slaughter export trade has existed in the past; for example, around 33 million sheep and 10 million cattle are kept in the UK.

Deer, llamas and alpacas are kept for a range of reasons, such as for venison and for alpaca fleece. We have no evidence of any of these species being exported for slaughter or fattening from Great Britain to the EU, nor, indeed, that there is any demand for a trade in live exports from the EU or elsewhere. As the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, pointed out, Compassion in World Farming, an organisation that has campaigned to ban live exports for 50 years, has said that it is

“not aware of any alpacas, llamas or deer being exported for slaughter”.

The RSPCA has also said that

“only sheep, calves and horses have been exported from Britain for slaughter in the last 10 years”.

I understand the noble Lord’s desire to ensure that the ban will apply to all relevant animals, both now and in future. However, when considering the data that we have on the past slaughter export trade, I firmly believe that the current definition of “relevant livestock” is already sufficiently comprehensive. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, these amendments ask pretty important wider questions about the Bill’s impact on imports, trade and farming. Some extremely good questions have been asked about how we can ensure, when we trade with other countries, that we receive imports that meet the high standards we set for our own farmers.

I turn first to the two amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I was very pleased to add my name to Amendment 2. We need to look at reciprocal arrangements with the EU around imports. The noble Baroness gave a really good example of how farming standards are undermined by imports; she talked about eggs and pigmeat in particular, as well as the fact that, although battery cages are banned here, we can import from countries that still use them.

Poultry is not within the scope of the Bill. As for the livestock trade, I am not sure whether eggs would be included—meat is certainly not included, only livestock—so I am not sure that these amendments fall within the scope of the Bill. However, this is an incredibly important issue that needs to be addressed by both the department and government. As the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, said, a review is not a big ask. In thinking about when the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, talked about imported livestock and the fact that the Minister did not have the numbers at Second Reading, I wonder whether the numbers are known at all—or, indeed, whether there is a guesstimate as to how many. It would be interesting to know whether those figures actually exist.

In speaking to her Amendment 3, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, mentioned breeding stock. I tried to put down an amendment on that but was told that it was not within the scope of the Bill, so I imagine that the noble Baroness’s amendment is not either. However, again, the points that she made about sanitary and phytosanitary checks on imports are incredibly important, whether we are looking at animal diseases that may reach our shores or that have already reached our shores. It is incredibly important that we are very aware of those border checks.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, tabled Amendment 4. As she did at Second Reading, she raised concerns about the movement of animals in Northern Ireland and their potential onward movement through Ireland to, as she said, wherever; we do not know where animals could end up and what conditions they could be held in. Again, in her amendment, she is asking for a review, in this case a review of the Bill’s impact on trade between Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the EU. To me, that seems a reasonable request.

In speaking to Amendment 5 in her name, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, clearly laid out farmers’ concerns regarding trade agreements. We are all very aware, I think, of the concerns that have been raised over the last few years while different trade agreements have been agreed or, sometimes, not agreed. The issues of animal welfare and standards have always been at the forefront of those discussions.

I conclude by saying to the Minister that, although some of the debate we have just had on this group is not within the scope of the Bill, these are issues that need addressing.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman of Ullock, Lady Hoey and Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, for their engagement on this Bill and their contributions to this debate.

The proposed reviews of the impact on trade between Great Britain and the EU—or Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the EU—are not necessary, for several reasons. In the first place, there have been no recorded exports for slaughter or fattening from Great Britain to the EU since 2020, and this Bill makes that permanent. In these circumstances, putting an end to this trade cannot on its own have an impact on the current trade balance between Great Britain and the EU. We also have full clarity on the subject of livestock trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Movements of animals within the UK internal market are out of scope of this Bill. Slaughter and fattening movements will therefore be able to continue between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, although there have been very few movements of this kind.

The Bill will not apply in Northern Ireland to ensure that farmers in Northern Ireland have unfettered access to both the UK and Republic of Ireland markets. As a result, the Bill will not have an impact on the trade of livestock between Northern Ireland and the EU. The final destinations for the vast majority of livestock exported for slaughter from Northern Ireland are in the Republic.

Taken all together, I can understand the concerns that, despite this Bill, there will be loopholes for livestock movements from Great Britain to the EU via Northern Ireland. I assure noble Lords that the requirements on moving animals to Northern Ireland would make such a slaughter trade uneconomical. Livestock transported for slaughter from Great Britain to Northern Ireland must go directly to the slaughterhouse. It would be an offence to take them anywhere else. When livestock are moved for other purposes, they must be moved directly to the holding of destination and remain there for at least 30 days. Failure to do so is an offence and may result in prosecution.

To address the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, my colleagues in Defra have a close working relationship with their counterparts in DAERA. They meet regularly to discuss issues related to livestock movements, and share information and developments where appropriate. As part of this mutual exchange, volumes of livestock movements in and out of Northern Ireland are closely monitored using data from the Animal and Plant Health Agency and the TRAde Control and Expert System.

I turn now to the subject of imports. First, I assure noble Lords that there are no, and never have been, significant imports for slaughter or fattening. According to our records on imports to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, since the beginning of 2021, around 1,800 pigs and 500 cattle have been imported for fattening while around 900 cattle have been imported for slaughter. The total number of livestock imports into Great Britain for fattening and slaughter from other EU countries is smaller still. This very small number of animals imported into Great Britain does not in any way constitute a comparable trade to the previous live export trade and is in stark contrast to the 44,500 sheep that were exported for slaughter or fattening from Great Britain to the EU in 2020.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked about the impact assessment for the ban. Our impact assessment received clearance from the Regulatory Policy Committee and was published in July 2021. It estimated the direct cost to businesses to be around £5.2 million across the 10-year appraisal period, or around £500,000 a year. The Regulatory Policy Committee agreed that no further assessment by it was required. As there have been no recorded live exports for slaughter or fattening since the assessment was published, the impact will have further decreased.

The noble Baroness also asked about veterinary capacity for the European health certificate, in particular whether there are any issues relating to the certification process in Europe at the moment. My Defra colleagues are in close contact with their European counterparts. I would put the overall assessment on that as being negligible. There were one or two small incidents, particularly around 24-hour cover in some areas, but they seem to have been addressed and we are not receiving any further issues there.

A number of noble Baronesses asked about the reciprocal arrangements for border control posts in Europe. This is a commercial issue but we are sympathetic to the concerns of the businesses involved. As such, the department has been active in doing what it can to support a satisfactory outcome. Defra officials have continued to track progress on this issue and have met regularly with the NFU and others who represent the wider industry. It is disappointing that, despite all these efforts, the companies seeking to identify an appropriate solution have not been successful in securing a border control post to serve their preferred routes.

I assure noble Lords that welfare standards for livestock imported into Great Britain remain unaffected by this Bill. All of the very low numbers of livestock imports into Great Britain come from EU member states, primarily the Republic of Ireland. This means that the animals are reared in conditions that are comparable to the animal welfare standards that apply in Great Britain. We do not foresee any reason why this would change.

A number of noble Baronesses asked whether eggs are included in this. As eggs are not livestock, no, they are not. Furthermore, all imports of live animals must be transported in accordance with our animal welfare in transport regulations. Every consignment of livestock imported into Great Britain must be fit for transport and have a journey plan approved by the Animal and Plant Health Agency prior to arriving. Transporters must make all necessary arrangements in advance to minimise the duration of the journey and must comply with the rules on journey times and rest periods.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I am sorry. It is terribly important that I listen very carefully to everything that the Minister has to say.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I am not quite sure where to begin—or, indeed, where to finish now.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

At least I did not mention the railways.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I know that everybody is in a hurry to catch their trains. As I speak, I am trying to work up an interesting story on abattoirs at the same time. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and others for their engagement on the Bill and their proposals as to how this legislation might be refined.

I will touch on the issue of horses and equines first because it is a good point that has been raised with me on a number of occasions. We are striking a fine balance here to make it possible for people to go abroad with their animals—in this case, their horses—for breeding purposes and to go to events, shows, et cetera. My personal observation is that it is blindingly obvious when you are taking a horse to a race or a show and when you have 15 scruffy-looking horses in a scruffy vehicle and you say, “Yeah, we’re just going to the gymkhana over in France. We might be back later”, but this is not always a clear-cut thing. I appreciate that there is the possibility that something nefarious could happen in this space but I believe that the controls we have in place will arrest 99.999% of that space, which is about as much as we might expect.

Let me crack on with some of my other answers. The impact that this Bill will have on the welfare standards of exported livestock is clear, I hope. The Bill will stop the export of cattle, sheep, goats, pigs and horses for slaughter and fattening. The impact on the welfare standards of these movements will be that these unnecessary journeys will stop entirely. Export journeys for slaughter or fattening are unnecessary because the animals could be slaughtered or fattened domestically. The animals that would have previously been exported for slaughter and fattening will now go on domestic journeys that are shorter in duration and less stressful than any equivalent export journey.

A number of questions were asked about internal journeys. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked about drivers. We have a driving course and a certificate of competence that are required here. All drivers in attendance are expected and supposed to undertake this training; that is checked. I hope that that helps but I take the wider point that was made on that.

I also take the wider point on abattoirs, which are an issue and link to many other issues in this space—in particular, the issue of vets. I am currently in extensive discussions on vets with the wider veterinary profession, with noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have an express interest in this matter and with the Chief Veterinary Officer. We have a little working group working on that at the moment to explore what we might do.

I was pleased to see earlier this week that two smaller abattoirs are opening and one, in Yorkshire, is reopening. There is a concerted effort here to make this a reality but I appreciate that it is a problem. I suspect, although I do not know, that the nature of the work is probably a large part of the problem here: if you have spent five years training to be a vet, standing in an abattoir and signing off certificates is probably not the most exciting thing that you thought you might be doing; I am guessing that, in the wider context, working in an abattoir is not an exhilarating experience. The point is well made and the matter is in hand.

Let me turn to some of the other issues that cropped up. Welfare issues for animals in transport came up, not just for exports but for domestic transport. This is principally governed by Council Regulation (EC) 1/2005

“on the protection of animals during transport and related operations”,

which is assimilated legislation. This is supplemented by domestic orders in England, Wales and Scotland. I have referred to a couple of issues on that.

Transporters have a legal duty to protect the welfare of the animals in their care. This means that contingency plans must be in place to ensure that animal welfare is not compromised—even in the event of the disruption of a journey, for example. These plans should include identifying control posts and emergency lairage facilities that can be used to provide animals with appropriate rest periods; using alternative routes; or postponing the journey until sea conditions or other conditions are suitable for it to take place.

Turning to the second part of this amendment, I assure noble Lords that we already keep welfare in transport policy more generally under review. This Bill is an example of that and follows the Farm Animal Welfare Committee’s 2018 report, commissioned by the UK Government and the Scottish and Welsh Governments, which examined animal welfare during the transport of livestock.

We discussed one of the Bill’s most crucial measures during this debate: the species within scope. I have set out why the current definition of “relevant livestock” is sufficiently comprehensive.

To conclude, I appreciate the noble Baroness’s wish to ensure that the Bill’s impact continues to be kept under review following Royal Assent. Given that the impact of the Bill on the welfare standards of livestock for export is clear and we already keep the wider policy areas under close review, it is not necessary to add these further requirements to the Bill. I therefore respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, may I say how much I enjoyed listening to the Minister’s response? I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for introducing her amendment. She made some important points on Northern Ireland and on the transport between Northern Ireland and the Republic and onwards. It is a really complicated area and we have to take the concerns around it very seriously. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response but there are probably more discussions to be had around this issue.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and others for their engagement on this Bill.

Let me first address the issue of the stepping stone from Europe to Ireland. What I would prefer to do, if I may, is take that outside of this discussion and the Bill today because it is not entirely connected. Perhaps I could come back to the noble Baroness separately on that.

I am very aware of the strength of feeling here and of the wider political issues so I shall stick to my script on this and not ad lib it, otherwise I shall get myself into terrible trouble. The Bill will prohibit the export of livestock and equines for slaughter and fattening from Great Britain to destinations outside of the UK and Crown dependencies. As the noble Baroness knows, none of the provisions affect Northern Ireland so there is no need for the Bill to extend to it; that is why the extent provisions are drafted as they are.

I understand the noble Baroness’s desire, through this probing amendment, to debate the implications of the Bill’s extent in relation to Northern Ireland. The Bill does not apply in Northern Ireland because of the vital importance of livestock movements for slaughter and fattening to the Republic of Ireland. Farmers in Northern Ireland routinely move animals in this way. The noble Baroness recognises this fact and has queried why we are not proposing a ban on exports from Northern Ireland with a targeted exemption for movements ending in the Republic of Ireland. A range of international agreements—I am waiting for a list of them—and their core principles, including World Trade Organization rules, would prevent an exemption of this kind, as the noble Baroness said.

The noble Baroness asked whether exceptions to the WTO requirements, such as that for measures to protect public morals, could apply in this case. Crucially, those exceptions cannot apply in a manner that would constitute a means of arbitrary discrimination between countries where the same conditions prevail. Any measure based on the exception must be applied in a consistent fashion to comparable trading partners. It is therefore not possible to make an exception for the Republic of Ireland on animal welfare grounds without extending the exception to other comparable countries outside the United Kingdom.

I understand the noble Baroness’ wish to explore whether the Bill could be extended further so that it applies across the United Kingdom. However, any such proposal would be either damaging to the Northern Irish economy or incompatible with our international agreements. The provisions that this amendment seeks to remove are necessary to set out the territorial extent of the Bill. I therefore respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

Land Use Framework

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I pay tribute to the noble Lord and to the other members of his committee for their excellent report. He rightly points out that this is an iterative process; we are not going to do it just once to put it into a file where it will sit for ever as a rigid structure. I do not yet have the exact details as to how this process will be updated. I very much hope that this will form part of the final report when it comes from the Secretary of State shortly.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the delay in the publication of the strategy is disappointing. Previously, the Minister has assured us that we would be seeing it “shortly”. It is interesting that “shortly” has now become “before the Summer Recess”. I thought I would look up the definition of “shortly” in the Cambridge dictionary; it is “soon”. The example given is:

“We will shortly be arriving in King’s Cross Station”.


Does the Minister agree that it is a jolly good job that he is not in charge of our railway services? Can he guarantee that we will see the strategy before the Summer Recess, or will we be seeing the use of “shortly” shortly?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

As a frequent user of the train service between here and Edinburgh, I appreciate that “shortly” can mean lots of different things. When the Secretary of State took up his position at the beginning of December, he wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, saying that that was a really important subject. It is crucial that the Secretary of State is completely happy with a report that will go out in his name. It is right that he takes the time to reflect on the report that was being formulated at the time, put his own stamp on it and make sure that he is entirely comfortable with it when it comes out, before the Summer Recess.

Environment Agency

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The most reverend Primate makes a very good point about public access. The Government are committed to everybody being within a 15-minute walk of a green or blue space. On the water environment, the designations for our bathing sites have never been in better condition. Just last week, we consulted on creating 27 new water designation bathing sites.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to ask the Minister about air quality. The European Environment Agency has estimated the number of attributable deaths that could be avoided if extra air quality measures were implemented. It has also attempted to quantify the health burden associated with specific diseases caused or exacerbated by air pollution. Does UK equivalence exist in this? For example, what work is our Environment Agency doing with international equivalents to share ideas and best practice on how to tackle public health?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a really good point on air quality. It is the single biggest pollution problem that we have. Per the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016, the Environment Agency regulates larger industrial installations, medium combustion plants and a range of other industrial areas. I am not aware specifically of the consultation we do with our European colleagues, but perhaps I can write to her on that in due course.

Packaging Waste (Data Reporting) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 5th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for his clear introduction. Previous speakers have asked the questions I am particularly interested in, so I shall be brief. We support any measures aimed at promoting better use of our natural resources and increasing reuse and recycling. Establishing correct base data is fundamental to the success of the extended producer responsibility scheme for packaging, so we welcome this instrument.

We appreciate the reasons behind the instrument, which the Minister explained very clearly. However, I have a question about paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which deals with the consultation outcome. Paragraph 10.5 say that a third consultation on PEPR ran from July to October 2023. Paragraph 10.6 states that the response is being reviewed and that a summary is expected to be published in the spring of this year, which is only a few weeks away. Is it expected that anything in the outcome of that consultation might have been useful to have ahead of this legislation? It seems a bit odd that the Government did not finish the consultation before introducing this legislation. If there is something useful in it, are we likely to see a similar SI in the near future?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the noble Baronesses for their questions. I am not sure that I grasped the nub of my noble friend Lady McIntosh’s question. I wonder whether I might chat to her afterwards about it, or I can write to her, or both.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked when producers are going to get clarity concerning fees for the extended producer responsibility packaging scheme. Producer fee rates will be set and published by the scheme administrator. Rates for the 2025-26 financial year will not be known until spring 2025, once all the producer packaging data has been received and checked. In the meantime, to support producers we aim to publish illustrative fees as soon as possible.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, also asked about stakeholder concerns about EPR. We continue to listen to feedback from all stakeholders throughout the development and delivery of this policy. The 12-month deferral of producer fees from 2024-25 has given producers an additional year to prepare for them, while also giving us the opportunity to consult producers on the deliverability of the draft regulations. Some of the amendments to this SI are in direct response to the feedback we have received from the consultation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked about the planned consultation. I think it would be best if I wrote to her on that. I am not aware of anything that is likely to come out of that which would require us to do another SI.

I hope I have covered most of the questions; if I have missed anything, I will write. I trust that noble Lords understand and accept the need for this instrument, which will make crucial changes to the Packaging Waste (Data Reporting) (England) Regulations 2023. These changes will ensure that drinks containers supplied in Scotland pick up an obligation in the same way that drinks containers supplied elsewhere do. The amendments will also widen the provisions that allow some primary and shipment packaging to become exempt from being defined as household packaging.

I thank noble Lords once again for their contributions and support today, and I commend these regulations to the Committee.

Waste Enforcement (Fixed Penalty Receipts) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 5th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction of this statutory instrument. Waste enforcement is clearly an important issue, so I do not intend to make any throwaway comments. However, I have some questions for the Minister.

First, am I correct in thinking that this SI was laid, withdrawn and laid again? If so, was there a problem with it? Perhaps the Minister could clarify that I have not confused it with another SI.

In his introduction, the Minister referred to some of the key statistics in the Explanatory Memorandum. The figures from the Environmental Services Association’s research spell out the problem, and that it is increasing. The estimated annual national cost of fly-tipping was £209 million in 2015, and just three years later it had increased to £392 million. That is pretty appalling, so it is important that we have legislation that attempts to deal with the problem. Paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum gives the results of the recent survey, which again demonstrate that this is a really important and concerning topic to the public, of whom

“49% thought that fly-tipping was a problem”.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, made some excellent points about fly-tipping on private land, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, talked about farmers. I know from where I live in Cumbria, as I am sure the Minister does, the huge costs associated with sorting out this problem on farms, particularly for small farmers, who simply do not have the ability to shift it. This is becoming a real problem, so I hope the Minister heard what the noble Baronesses said and that, if this is not the appropriate instrument to deal with it, something else can be done to address it going forward.

We have also heard about the involvement of local authorities. There is a commitment to limit the use of FPN proceeds to expanding or improving councils’ enforcement functions and cleaning up the consequences of this anti-social behaviour. As the Minister said, this was set out in the Prime Minister’s anti-social behaviour action plan last March. Can the Minister say why it has taken a year to bring this forward? It should be straightforward.

According to paragraphs 7.3, 7.4 and 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum, the revenue from FPNs is generally spent on street-cleaning activity rather than enforcement. My understanding is that this SI will mean that more revenue is spent on prevention, which is very welcome, but how do the Government see councils plugging the gaps in their general street-cleansing budgets through this instrument? The Minister talked about the amount councils can charge being increased through this SI, but there is still a cap on fixed-penalty notices for fly-tipping, littering and graffiti. Will the Government consider removing the cap and explore whether more stringent court fines for the worst offenders could help councils investigate and prosecute fly-tippers and deter repeat offenders? We know that some people make a living out of doing this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, gave the Committee an extremely good example. In our own communities, we have all heard about instances of people saying, “We’ll take that away for you”, taking a fee and then dumping it on someone else’s land. These repeat offenders need sorting out. The noble Baroness also talked about CCTV. CCTV is now being used in some areas of the Lake District National Park, because people are dumping rubbish even in some of the most beautiful areas of our national parks.

The enforcement actions include employing officers who are authorised to issue the fines. Have the Government any figures on the average number of officers employed by each local authority in England, in order to get an idea of the number of people currently involved? It would be interesting to know whether these are full-time posts or part of the officers’ wider responsibilities; if the latter, how does the ring-fencing work? If they have different responsibilities and this is just one of them, how is the ring-fencing guaranteed?

Paragraph 10.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to the consultation that took place with local authorities, and states that there were no responses from the West Midlands, which seems a bit odd. Why did the West Midlands not take part?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all three noble Baronesses for their contributions to this debate. I will start with fly-tipping on private land, which they all raised. The Government appreciate the difficulty that fly-tipping poses to landowners. As was pointed out, it is indeed deeply unfair and places a huge and unreasonable burden on private landowners. The Government are working with a wide range of stakeholders, such as the NFU, through the National Fly-Tipping Prevention Group, to promote and disseminate good practice, including how to prevent fly-tipping on private land.

Furthermore, in April last year, the National Police Chiefs’ Council established a new National Rural Crime Unit to support police forces nationally in responding to rural crime, including fly-tipping. Defra has awarded the National Rural Crime Unit a grant of £100,000 to fund a dedicated 12-month post, which started last month on the Northumberland-County Durham border, to explore the police’s role in tackling fly-tipping and how this can be optimised, with a particular focus on rural areas. Outputs from this will include training for police officers and working on intelligence-sharing across borders and between authorities.

Defra is also funding councils across the country to directly intervene at fly-tipping hotspots, including in rural areas, through the fly-tipping intervention grant scheme. For example, in Herefordshire, councils have seen a reduction in fly-tipping of over 90% across areas where CCTV—another issue raised by noble Baronesses —and signage have been installed, and they have developed stronger relationships with local farmers and landowners. If any noble Baroness has further specific questions on that issue, I will write to them.

Right to Roam

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend raises a good point. There are issues around responsible access, such as illegal parking, livestock worrying, disrupting wildlife, damage and littering—a favourite topic of mine. The issues in Scotland are obviously devolved to the Scottish Government, but, if the Westminster Government were ever minded to look at this again, establishing a proper code of conduct for accessing the outdoors, and linking that to a proper consultation and a proper plan for education on this issue, would be absolutely critical.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, it was over 20 years ago that we last had this reviewed, under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, so I am pleased that that will happen. We have to end this piecemeal approach, which causes completely unnecessary divisions between landowners and people who want to walk. Will the review look at existing footpaths? I can think of a number of footpaths in Cumbria that are completely impassable now. It is really important that we keep existing routes clear and open for people to use.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. Maintaining access to all these routes is at the forefront of the Government’s agenda at the moment. I will certainly take away her specific point regarding Cumbria and see whether we can do something about that.

Environment Agency: Flood Defence Expenditure

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 20th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My noble friend raises a good point. The allocation of resources is pretty much exactly as she expressed. It is done on the basis that areas most at risk will receive most of the funding. The Government will keep this under review, and I will take that point back to the department.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to come back on the internal drainage boards answer. The councils affected are significantly financially impacted. We had a question yesterday on the impact on council finances. It is all very well that the Prime Minister has announced extra funding—that is excellent—but this is an urgent issue. How much money has been pledged, and when will councils see it?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I do not have the details to hand at the moment, but I will write to the noble Baroness in due course.

Food Import Requirements

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Wednesday 14th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of new food import requirements on (1) domestic producers, and (2) food safety.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Douglas-Miller) (Con)]

My Lords, the controls set out in our new border target operating model, BTOM, represent a comprehensive assessment of the biosecurity and public health risks presented by imports, together with the risks of relevant pests and diseases. They allow us to assess our confidence in the exporting country’s production standards and health controls. The BTOM aims to strike the right balance between allowing trade to flow and protecting our domestic producers from threats such as African swine fever.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, April’s post-Brexit import controls come after numerous delays and redesigns, and against a backdrop of a shortage of vets to check consignments and hauliers to move them. The port of Dover is concerned that the decision to have physical checks so far from its border will enable illicit activity between the two sites. Domestic producers are worried that, as they face higher input costs and labour shortages, EU farmers will be able to undercut them. How can the Minister guarantee that British farmers will benefit from these reforms and that there will be no undermining of our high welfare and food safety standards?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her extensive question. The purpose of the BTOM is to provide that balance between the necessity to check for our biosecurity and allowing trade to happen. Specifically on Sevington, since 2022 the Government have provided funding to all port health authorities, including Dover, to support Border Force, which has the responsibility for checks on illegal imports. The Government recognise the rise in illegal imports, particularly pork, from eastern Europe, which is why we continue to provide additional funding to district port health authorities. With the introduction of BTOM, many of the Dover Port Health Authority’s duties and associated costs will move to Sevington, including the commercial trade checks that are being implemented, hence the reduced funding package for Dover.

Sea Fisheries (International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Perhaps the noble Lord can take that away and make sure the link works properly in the future. It was a bit frustrating that I could not get any detail on it. Having said that, we completely support this legislation and we need to move on with it.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank both noble Baronesses for their interest in tuna fishery. I was led to believe that the record for an SI is seven minutes; I was hoping that we might have beaten it, but BFT is obviously a long phrase and takes a bit of time to get through.

A few questions were raised. First, I will look at the consultation link and make sure that it works. Secondly, the management of our quota and the sustainability of the fishery are interlinked. We are governed by ICCAT, so it is not a European or a British thing. We do not say, “We’re going to take 50, 100 or 200 tonnes”; we have joined this organisation, which has an overarching responsibility across the whole of the bluefin tuna fishery and that of related species. As such, it does a lot of the research work that gives us some indication of how the bluefin tuna fishery is developing. It has been intricately involved in the management plan over the last 10 or 15 years.

We look to ICCAT for the quota, which it allocates across all other European countries, as well as ours. We get what we get, and then it is up to us to decide how we allocate that between the commercial and recreational fishery. This is all a bit new, not just to me but to most fishermen, I think. Not many people out there fish for bluefin tuna. The current plan is that all the recreational fishery will be catch and release. We will catch the fish, tag it and take information to feed back to ICCAT, which will help inform its decision-making. That may change over time if the fishery grows and we feel that there is a market.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked about objections. I am not aware that we have had any objections at all on this issue. If we bump into lots, we can feed that into our thought process and see where it takes us. I take her point about giving people clear instructions on catch and release. Tuna is a very big fish. I am a fisherman and I have some experience of catch and release; it is absolutely not as easy as it sounds. If we are doing catch and release, there is a real need to ensure that there is clear guidance on how it is executed and that we do not damage fish in the process of releasing them. That guidance and those details need to be fleshed out a bit.

Finally, I am afraid that I am unclear on the parity of permit charges, so I will write to the noble Baroness on that point.

I think that covers all the questions, so I will wrap up. I hope noble Lords share my conviction about the need for this instrument to make the necessary provisions outlined in the Sea Fisheries (International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. The regulations ensure that the UK can continue to meet its full international obligations under the convention which governs ICCAT, supporting the sustainable management of Atlantic bluefin tuna. With that, I commend the instrument to the Committee.

Met Office: 2023 Temperatures

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 6th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

This is a heartbreaking story and situation that is causing a lot of pain and suffering. The Government’s international leadership on climate change has been demonstrated over the last few years in a consistent way. We continue to provide that leadership. I do not have the specific answers to the noble Lord’s question here and now, but I will endeavour to write to him very shortly to lay out the Government’s position.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain how the Government will square the circle of announcing their stated ambition on tackling climate change, while at the same time awarding new licences for oil and gas extraction and approving a new coal mine?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an interesting question. This demonstrates very clearly the transition that we are going through, from fossil fuels to renewable energy. She will know that the Government have a clear policy of moving to renewable energy. It is a transition, during which we will still need oil and—I hope to a much lesser extent—coal to get us from A to Z. I appreciate that it is a complex area, but that is the Government’s position.

Water Pollution

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Douglas-Miller

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Water companies, including United Utilities, have always been required to report pollution incidents and breaches of their permits to the Environment Agency. The agency also monitors and inspects water company sites independently. It has significantly driven up monitoring and transparency from water companies in recent years. Any reports of misreporting are a concern and, if there is evidence, the Environment Agency will always take action, including pursuing and prosecuting companies that are deliberately obstructive.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I too welcome the noble Lord to his place and say how much I look forward to working with him in the coming months.

In a Written Answer, the noble Lord noted that, following pollution from United Utilities in the Windermere area, the Environment Agency recognised that it should have done better and referred itself for independent review by its Scottish partner. The Answer also stated that learning had been shared with the EA to inform future responses. How many similar regulatory failures have taken place over the last three years, and how will the department ensure transparency over the outcomes?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Again, I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words. The Environment Agency has fully reviewed the evidence about this incident and concluded that the most likely cause of the Cunsey Beck issue at Lake Windermere was algal bloom. However, since the Environment Agency did not identify a definitive source of this serious problem, it asked the Scottish Environment Protection Agency to review its response. As a result of the review, the Environment Agency has made improvements to water quality monitoring in the area, including installing sensors that monitor river quality in real time. We have no plans to reopen the investigation in the absence of any substantial new evidence.