European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Stella Creasy and Peter Dowd

2nd reading
Friday 6th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Ms Creasy]

Importantly, this House was charged, along with the Irish Government, to uphold the Good Friday agreement. In any legislation that comes along, it is right and proper that we ask how to do that, alongside our colleagues across in Ireland. This legislation touches on so many elements of that agreement, so today’s debate is also about us doing the important job that we pledged to do all those years ago, to improve and maintain peace and stability in Northern Ireland.

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I would be the first to admit that we do not always get these things right—whoever does? What we have to do is try, try and try again, and attempt to do our best in good faith. I will come back to that in a moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Dowd]

I will touch on that a little later.

[Ms Creasy]

I wish I could understand—perhaps my hon. Friend can help me out with this. If, on the one hand, the European Union is a source of colonisation that has this disrespect towards the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, but, on the other hand, as part of a trade agreement we would simply trust each other to mutually enforce each other’s rules without any level of oversight, at what point do we start trusting these colonisers, as opposed to recognising that as part of an international trade treaty, we both have to stick to the same set of rules and see them upheld?

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. At the end of the day, whether the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim and I like it or not, and I do, they are allies in virtually the biggest trading area—in fact, it is the largest—in the world, but I accept that Members have concerns. I am not trying to deny that, and I am not trying to demean them or push them under the carpet.

I also do not want to revisit the pre-referendum process. It is unavailing at this stage to rehash or regurgitate the arguments, warnings, finger pointing, claims, vilifications, passions and tensions that at times dominated the debate in the lead-up to and during the last weeks of the referendum campaign, but the situation we face is a direct result and consequence of that decision—of that, in my view, there is no doubt. I believe it is fair to say that personalities, rather than policies, often dominated the discussions and debates at the time. I also believe that, at times, high-politics issues around sovereignty, self-determination and other factors came into play. However, such matters are really symmetrical. That is the nature of the democratic debate and of the democratic debate that we have in this country, for better or worse.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Dowd]

My stance is that if a person does not trust me in a democratic environment, they are perfectly entitled to go down to the ballot box and put an X against my opponent’s name, and I will respect them for doing so. That is the way we do it in this country.

[Ms Creasy]

Many of us are passionate about equal rights; that is why we have concerns about this legislation. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) would not engage on the subject of the impact that the Bill would have on human rights in Northern Ireland. We all know about our democratic rights. When we talk about equal citizenship, we are talking about the ability to be represented, about rights being upheld, and about a right of remedy. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill would rip up those rights in Northern Ireland by ripping up article 2 of the Windsor framework? The Bill would deny people in Northern Ireland rights that his constituents and mine have, because we have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights if we feel that an overbearing Government are breaching our rights. When it comes to equal citizenship in the Union, we must reject the Bill to uphold the rights of all.

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend is right. I reject the Bill as respectfully as I can. Countries have to operate in an international rules-based system. That is the position that this country has taken on many occasions, even when the consequences for us have been dire. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim talked about foundations. I do not want to undermine the foundation of the rules-based system, trust and good faith. That is what I do not want to breach.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Creasy]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech and it is one that he and I have lived and breathed as Members elected prior to 2024 and indeed prior to 2019, when the legislation at the heart of this matter was constructed in this place. We were on the Opposition Benches at the time and we all had to look at the concept of international relations and what would happen because of the Brexit votes. It was striking that the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) promoting this legislation talked as if that had never happened. We have been there before in all of this. There are no perfect solutions; that is part of the challenge that Brexit created for all of us. But in looking at what we do next, understanding that breaching international protocols has consequences is as important as thinking about what we do when we breach those international protocols, as we did with Brexit.

[Peter Dowd]

My hon. Friend makes a really important and fair point. We have to be very careful in this area when we have international obligations, and we have to be even more cautious when we are dealing with the situation that we found ourselves in given the context of the Belfast agreement.

I am drawing to a close, Members will be pleased to know, but it is worthwhile exploring the concept in a little more detail, because as I said, it goes to our position as a custodian. The circumstances in which we can depart from obligations are fairly clear: for instance, by mutual agreement—that is unsurprising—or implied right to withdraw. Neither of those is the case in this situation. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman thinks they should be, but I do not believe that they are.

Can we say that the treaty or agreement is no longer in place due to agreed time limits or sunset clauses? The answer to that question is no. Has the other side materially breached the treaty or the agreement, which would in turn absolve us of our obligations? Well, I do not think that applies either. What about our ability to carry out the agreement because of the “disappearance or destruction” of an object crucial to the operation of the treaty? That get-out clause does not exist, either; well, not that I am aware. In fact, the Windsor framework is protected by the Vienna convention on treaties, as was brought out during the statement that I referred to.