Points of Order

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last Monday, in my constituency, I had the immense privilege of assisting to hoist the holocaust memorial flag to commemorate everyone who was butchered or medically experimented on by national socialism as it dominated the continent of Europe.

As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Gypsies, Travellers and Roma, I was utterly dumbfounded at the weekend when the holocaust was used to poke fun at one of the most marginalised groups in these islands. The Roma and Gypsy community have been part of the story of these islands for millennia and, as co-chair of the APPG, I can tell the House that it was not funny.

Comedy is a useful tool in lightening the mood, and it is often up to us to decide what we believe to be funny. What opportunities are there for Members of this House to show their support and commitment to the dignity of the suffering of all those who lost their lives during the holocaust—Jews, Gypsies, Roma, the LGBT community, Jehovah’s Witnesses and many others—such as an Adjournment debate or a Backbench Business debate? [Interruption.] Perhaps Conservative Members should listen. What opportunities are there to recognise the value and worth of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community across these islands, and to raise them up, not put them down?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his point of order. He has put his concerns in the public domain very effectively with what he has just said. He asks me what mechanisms there are to raise his concerns. He listed quite a few of them, so he is obviously aware of them. I am sure the Table Office will be able to advise him on any other mechanisms. The Leader of the House is here, too, and he will have heard what the hon. Gentleman had to say. I will leave it at that.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Further to the points of order made by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Sarah Jones) on Friday and by the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) on Thursday, have you or Mr Speaker had any notification from the Prime Minister of his intention to correct the record of his claim last week that

“we have been cutting crime by 14%”?—[Official Report, 31 January 2022; Vol. 708, c. 24.]

As you will be aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, the head of the UK Statistics Authority has said that the statements about crime statistics that were made by the Home Office and subsequently repeated by the Prime Minister were “misleading”. In figures released just the previous week, the Office for National Statistics found

“a 14% increase in total crime, driven by a 47% increase in fraud and computer misuse”.

Clearly the Prime Minister needs to correct the record and be clear that crime has gone up, not down, over the past two years on his watch.

“Erskine May”, resolutions of the House and the ministerial code all say that it is

“of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to Parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity.”

The Prime Minister made his comments on Wednesday; the UK Statistics Authority wrote to the Home Office and No. 10 on Thursday; there have been two previous points of order on the matter. It is now Monday. This is clearly not the earliest opportunity.

I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. What is the point of our having a ministerial code and rules of Parliament on correcting the parliamentary record if the Prime Minister continues to ignore them and does not respond to Parliament? How do we ensure that these basic rules and standards for Parliament are not just ripped up?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for notice of her point of order. As she says, the matter has been raised previously. I have to repeat my response to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain):

“Although the Chair is not responsible for the content of contributions made by Ministers, I am sure the concern has been heard on the Treasury Bench.”—[Official Report, 3 February 2022; Vol. 708, c. 566.]

I am sure it has been heard again, and if an error has been made in this instance, I am sure a Minister would want to correct it as quickly as possible.

The right hon. Lady refers to the ministerial code, paragraph 8.15 of which deals with statistics. I am sure that she will find other ways of pursuing the issue, should she wish to, but as I say, I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard her concerns once again.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You and the House will be aware that last Thursday, the First Minister in the Northern Ireland Government resigned, which has effectively established the position, both de jure and de facto, that there is now no functioning Executive in Northern Ireland.

I was surprised that there was no statement from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on Friday or today, because we are now living in difficult times. This House knows how hard-fought this was and how long the then Secretary of State and his predecessor had to operate before we saw Stormont re-established and a functioning Government working again.

There is a duty on the Northern Ireland Secretary to come to the House and explain how the matter will now be taken forward. He has direct responsibility and accountability not only for actions of governance in Northern Ireland, but to this House as to what progress will be made. Can you tell us, Madam Deputy Speaker, whether he has approached you or Mr Speaker to say that he will make a statement? If not, what recourse do we have?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for notice of his point of order. I have to inform him that I have not had notice of a statement on the matter. I note that Lords amendments to the Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill are on today’s Order Paper, hence the presence of the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, so there may be an opportunity to raise relevant matters as part of those proceedings. I accept, however, that that is not the statement that the hon. Member seeks.

Once again, I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard the hon. Member’s request for the matter to be brought before the House soon; as I say, the Northern Ireland Minister is here. I am sure that the hon. Member also knows, as an experienced Member of the House, that there are other ways in which he can raise the issue.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is further to the point of order raised earlier by the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper).

Of course we all understand that all Members are honourable Members. Of course we all understand that occasionally we manage, in the cut and thrust of debate, to say things inaccurately. If, however, we then refuse to correct the record, it is not inadvertent any more; it is advertent. It is deliberate, it is intentional, it is a refusal to correct the record. I fully understand why the Chair does not want to get involved, but the Chair always gets involved if someone then chooses to call that out as an advertent lie. That means, then, that the poor Member who has called out the lie gets thrown out of the Chamber, or is forced to use the word “inadvertent” when we all know perfectly well that the Member does not mean “inadvertent”.

I just wonder how we are going to resolve this in the future. As I understand it, the Procedure Committee is meant to be looking at what we do about accusations of lying in the House, but it feels as if this rule is not going to last forever if we carry on like this, does it not?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As I said before, it has been made very clear from the Chair that if mistakes need to be corrected, they should be corrected as quickly as possible. We have had, I think, three points of order on this now. Again, those on the Treasury Bench will have heard the concern and will, I am sure, relay it back. At the moment, however, the hon. Gentleman is painting a hypothetical picture of the future, because, as I have said, if a mistake has been made, it is up to whichever Minister is involved to try to correct that, if they feel—as I have said—that a mistake has been made.

As the hon. Gentleman has said, the Procedure Committee is looking at this issue in the round, and, obviously, it is something on which right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House might wish to give evidence to the Committee.

[Yvette Cooper]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank you for that clarification, but given that, in this particular case, we have not only the facts from the ONS but the statement from the head of the UK Statistics Authority—which mean that the Prime Minister needs to correct the record—if there is no response from the Prime Minister or from the Treasury Bench, no explanation, no correction, no change to what they have put on the record, and given what “Erskine May” says, what are we supposed to do?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

There is very little that I can add at this stage, apart from saying this. There may be those who say that there are different interpretations of different statistics, so I think that, at the moment, we have to leave it as we have stated: those on the Treasury Bench have heard the concern that perhaps figures were used which are incorrect, and that if that is the case, the ministerial code says that they should be corrected at the earliest opportunity.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it not correct that there are lies, damned lies and statistics, and is it not sometimes a matter of interpretation, not a matter of fact?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I would say that “not necessarily” is probably the answer.

Bills Presented

Energy Company Obligation (Cavity Wall Insulation) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Paul Maynard presented a Bill to require energy companies to remove and replace incorrectly installed cavity wall insultation; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 March, and to be printed (Bill 247).

Parliamentary Elections (Optional Preferential Vote) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Paul Maynard presented a Bill to introduce the optional preferential voting system for Parliamentary elections; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 March, and to be printed (Bill 248).

Ministerial Competence (External Review) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Paul Maynard presented a Bill to make provision for an annual appraisal of the performance and competence of individual Ministers, conducted outside the Cabinet Office, to inform the Prime Minister in recommending ministerial appointments; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 March, and to be printed (Bill 249).

Charities (Income Source Statements) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Paul Maynard presented a Bill to require the Charity Commission to publish statistics of the proportion of income of each registered charity which is derived from public expenditure; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 March, and to be printed (Bill 250).

Local Welfare Assistance (Statements)

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Paul Maynard presented a Bill to require local authorities to publish statements of expenditure and the numbers of grants made to residents through the local welfare assistance scheme; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 March, and to be printed (Bill 251).