Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Olivia Blake and Andrew Bowie

Committee stage
Thursday 10th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Olivia Blake]

This is a really valuable discussion, even if the amendment does not make it into the Bill. In the last Parliament, I served on the Energy Bill Committee. Conservative Members will remember the hours and hours of debate—it felt like days, months, years—about wider energy policy, and unfortunately there was nothing on reducing home energy use through insulation. I pay tribute to the wonderful Alan Whitehead, who kept us all entertained as the shadow Minister on that Committee. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] He was a very good man and gave a lot to this subject in particular.

Although I understand why the amendment has been tabled, this discussion is related more to wider energy policy than to the setting up of GB Energy. I understand why it has come up and it is good that we are discussing it, because it is a matter not just of energy efficiency but of human health. Sir Michael Marmot published a paper this year, reiterating the very human cost of poor-quality housing and the fact that so many homes in the UK have an energy performance certificate under level C. That is why I am pleased that in the run-up to the election we were championing the warm homes plan. I very much look forward to that, and I think it will cover the concerns of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire.

The Bill focuses not only on reducing emissions, but on reducing the use of energy within the objects. We have covered the issue with the words “energy efficiency” in clause 3(2)(c). I know that that sounds quite limited, but there is much more to energy efficiency than loss within our homes; it is also about loss of energy within the system, so it is right to have a broader framing of energy efficiency within the Bill.

[Andrew Bowie]

I will not detain the Committee long, but I want to express the Conservatives’ support for the Liberal Democrat amendment, primarily because of our concern about the impact of the removal of the winter fuel allowance from so many pensioners this winter, and the fact that the warm homes plan, as welcome as it is, will not be up and running until next spring, which leaves considerable concern over what might happen in and around this winter.

Those pensioners should be at the forefront of our mind as we look towards winter and as we are discussing an increase in the number of well-insulated homes in this country—on which, by the way, we had quite a good record when we were in government; we increased markedly the number of homes at EPC level C or above. For those reasons, we will support the amendment if it is pressed to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Bowie]

It was created as a result of the invasion of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin, as everybody in this room knows. I know that out there in the country, constituents would like clarification that that remains an express aim of GB Energy, especially the cutting of £300 from their energy bills and particularly for the pensioners out there who are having that exact amount removed from them by this Government, as one of their first acts having got into power.

The Secretary of State has reiterated that clean energy will deliver cheaper energy; it has been repeated in the House, on the campaign trail, in videos and in leaflets. I believe it is important to enshrine accountability to that ambition in this Bill, which will create the institution of Great British Energy. We must introduce a mechanism by which the Secretary of State and GB Energy are accountable to households.

[Olivia Blake]

Surely the shadow Minister agrees that Great British Energy will reduce the costs of energy, because the types of energy projects in which it will be investing will be of lower-cost energy production and we will be less reliant on foreign fuel markets, which have been very volatile for a range of reasons. I accept what he says about what he did as Minister in the last Parliament, but this Government, in our first piece of legislation, are acting to create a vehicle that will enable us to get much further.

We have had a very successful auction, compared with the absolute farce of an auction at the back end of the last Parliament, for clean energy projects that are cheaper and will hopefully deliver on a scale never seen before in this country. I am proud to stand here and say that I think the amendment is not necessary. It is playing quite cute with the rhetoric around this question; it should be withdrawn, because it is playing politics rather than tackling the substance of what the Bill is intended for, which is very serious, as we face a climate and nature emergency.

[Andrew Bowie]

I do not disagree entirely with the hon. Lady. I think we should be aiming to reduce the cost to taxpayers, and that investing in new cleaner technologies, including nuclear, will see energy bills fall in the long run—so why not have that as one of the objects of the company in the Bill? The Bill states that the objects of Great British Energy will be

“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from 15 fossil fuels…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”

There is not one mention of reducing consumers’ bills. Surely we want to enshrine that in the legislation, if that is indeed one of the aims of the creation of this company.

My amendment 12 would include the necessity to present

“a projection of how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect consumer energy bills over the following five years.”

Transparency and accountability should be key to the operation of GB Energy, particularly when the investments and activities that the organisation undertakes have a potential impact on household bills for every family in this country. Thank you for allowing me to speak to the amendment, Dr Huq; I do so to ensure that the Bill makes provision for GB Energy to be held accountable on its aim to reduce energy bills for households.

It is in the best interests of GB Energy and of the British public that the company have a clear directive to ensure, through investment in clean energy technology, that the cost of household energy is reduced. Labour MPs made clear the intention of GB Energy to reduce bills—indeed, they campaigned extensively on the £300 reduction—so I hope that they will support amendment 12, which would support them in achieving that goal, along with including provisions on accountability and transparency to the public on the overall impact of GB Energy’s investments on consumer bills.

[Stephen Flynn]

I rise to support amendment 24, which is broadly similar to the shadow Minister’s amendment 11. I am intrigued by the discussion that we have had, various aspects of which appeared to disagree with evidence we have heard.

First, the hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam, if I picked her up correctly, made great play of the fact that GB Energy will reduce costs. Yet just a couple of days ago, each and every one of us was in the room with the chair of GB Energy, who was very clear that reducing bills

“is not the scope of Great British Energy”.––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q5.]

We can all watch the footage online, and we can all read Hansard.

Secondly, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar made the argument that the £300 promise was not actually a promise. Which is it? Will it or will it not reduce costs?

Great British Energy Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Olivia Blake and Andrew Bowie

Committee stage
Thursday 10th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Bowie]

You might have other ideas, Sir Roger. The legacy is the creation of Great British Nuclear; the beginning of the small modular reactor down-selection programme; the development consent order move in respect of Sizewell C; £200 million invested into high-assay low-enriched uranium fuels to be developed here in the United Kingdom; moving forward at pace with Hinkley Point C; and a commitment to build a third gigawatt-scale reactor at Wylfa—something that this Government have abandoned. It is not the Conservative party that the nuclear industry has a problem with; the industry is now worried about the go-slow on nuclear being implemented in this country by the new Labour Government, because of their obsession with putting all their eggs in one basket of renewables and not looking to the wider benefits of investing in nuclear as well.

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the onshore wind ban, we delivered everything that I have listed while respecting the rights of communities in this country not to have the countryside where they live, and that they respect and enjoy, industrialised. That is why we had stipulations on communities having a right over what was built in them. I stand by that. It was a good policy and we still halved our emissions faster than any other G7 nation.

When we were in government, we established the nuclear skills taskforce to address the skills gap of 250,000 people that the nuclear industry alone would have were we to deliver all the projects we seek to deliver in defence and energy. We all know that clean energy technology brings employment with it. Estimates for job creation in the transition range from 136,000 jobs to 725,000 jobs by 2030. We all know how beneficial clean energy technology can be for local communities when it comes to employment. Projects such as Sizewell C drive investment—it will bring as many as 25,000 new jobs to Suffolk, and there are already 1,000 apprenticeships in the area. These are high-paid, high-skilled jobs that deliver for the community.

We have heard from the Labour Government that GB Energy will create 650,000 new jobs. On Tuesday, when I asked the chairman, Juergen Maier, about the number of jobs to be based in Aberdeen, he told us that it would be hundreds or even 1,000. I hope that Aberdeen will benefit significantly from being the base for the HQ of GB Energy and that that is not merely paying lip service to a community that is losing out in investment, prosperity and employment opportunities as a result of the energy profits levy increases, the lack of investment allowances, the disinclination to offer new licences in the North sea and the impact that that will have on investment in the transition.

I represent a constituency near Aberdeen, where a significant proportion of constituents are employed in the oil and gas industry directly, or indirectly in the supply chain. The potential for new jobs and the preservation of existing jobs are deeply personal to me and other MPs in the room. In fact, 65,000 people in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire are employed in that industry and in the supply chain, so I know how impactful on communities those jobs are. I therefore move that we include the creation of 650,000 new jobs as a strategic priority for GB Energy, as well as including the requirement to report on the progress made towards that ambition. If we do not deliver the new jobs and do not ensure that as we move through the transition, those working in the oil and gas industry will have jobs secured into the future—as well as creating the new jobs by delivering the projects we were seeking to, as I know the Labour Government seek to—we will have failed in all our shared ambitions.

[Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)]

The shadow Minister’s amendment seems to be a bit of a fig leaf over the failure of the previous Government to secure good, high-quality, unionised jobs in the green energy sector. We need only look at offshore wind. I have cited these statistics before, but in 2010 some 70,000 jobs were promised from the UK offshore wind sector. Unfortunately, 10 years later, it had delivered only 11,900, which is only 5,600 more than were achieved by 2014.

The capacity of offshore wind went up by a huge percentage under the previous Government, for which they should be commended, but their strategy in the past 14 years meant that while they were building offshore wind, they were also offshoring all the jobs that went with it. There was no strategy to cultivate labour-intensive sections of the supply chain; the majority of jobs went abroad. Not enough went into supporting the creation of servicing jobs in the UK. Furthermore, in another element of policy, the embarrassment and failure of the green homes grant truly laid bare the fact that we did not have the right industrial strategy—we had no industrial strategy to support the creation of jobs in those industries or to support a Government intervention such as the green homes grant.

A lot can be said about the opportunities that GB Energy offers. On Tuesday, the TUC agreed that GB Energy would be an enabler for a just transition for those currently working, but it is also my belief that this is a real opportunity for new jobs for the next generation. We have real potential to lever in a huge opportunity going forward to be a main player internationally in some of our emerging technologies.

I am proud to represent a constituency in Sheffield, where we have a lot of research capacity in many different areas related to energy, from battery storage to hydrogen and new nuclear. A lot of research is happening. Such innovation is important to allow for manufacturing jobs to spin off from the primary research.

The amendment is all well and good, but I think it is a little bit rich coming from the Conservative shadow Minister, given the abject failure to deliver on the jobs that we were promised under the previous Government.

[Andrew Bowie]

I have said publicly on the Floor of the House and in other places that we did not see the creation of the jobs that we wanted as a result of our revolution in energy production here in the United Kingdom. As I said, we have the first, second, third, fourth and fifth largest offshore wind farms in the world, which is a source of great pride, but the jobs onshore created as a result of that simply did not come about, hence why we were moving towards the creation of the sustainable industry rewards and were encouraging companies to invest and create the jobs. If the hon. Lady agrees that we should have done more to create jobs, surely she also agrees with the purpose of the amendment, which is to ensure that GB Energy will have as one of its stated aims the creation of 650,000 jobs in new and emerging technologies.

[Olivia Blake]

I would not want to limit the possibilities of GB Energy with a number. It is a big number that the hon. Gentleman has put here but, to be honest, there are huge opportunities in all the energy areas—especially in the supply chain within the UK, but also in the transition of jobs. It is really important that we take it in the round and allow GB Energy to play its role. Not all jobs will come from GB Energy; they will come from the much broader investments that we will see over the next decade. We have had a lost decade in this regard, and there is a lot of skills work that needs to come.

Great British Energy Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Olivia Blake and Andrew Bowie

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Bowie]

Q Do you think there is enough provision in the Bill to allow for the Secretary of State to be publicly accountable for the decisions that he or she may take in the future, in regard to the concerns you have just raised?

Adam Berman: I do not think there is a deficit in terms of accountability, and I do not think there are 500 bodies that should be consulted before any decision is made by GB Energy; if you look at things like the planning system and statutory consultees, you can see how that is an issue. That being said, there is a list of organisations that any Secretary of State should consult, through their due diligence, which is everyone from the National Energy System Operator to the Climate Change Committee to industry to devolved Administrations. We would very much assume that the Secretary of State and the Department would do that due diligence themselves. However, I do not think shackling GB Energy through the legislation to having to do that to make every decision is necessarily the right approach.

Dan McGrail: I fully agree with that.

[Olivia Blake]

Q I wanted to ask about the definition in the Bill on clean energy. Do either of you have any thoughts on whether that definition is clear enough?

Dan McGrail: From my perspective, the definition is probably good enough. It is quite tricky to go too narrow and say renewable energy only, because there are certain areas, such as long duration storage, where the sector would like GB Energy to participate in, or at least to have the freedom to participate in, which, if it is too narrowly constrained or defined, may prove problematic later down the line.

One thing I think would be advantageous in the definition, or in the objects, is to clearly set out the guard rails, such as ensuring the carbon budgets are referenced. If we reference the carbon budgets, future Secretaries of State would need to make sure that any investments that were made were in line with the delivery of the carbon budgets. That is comparable to what was done with the set-up of the Green Investment Bank, where there were specific references to what the Secretary of State would need to go back to primary legislation to change, and what would be foreseeable within secondary legislation—not directing the Green Investment Bank to invest in fossil fuels, for example, would have required a complete change of mandate. I think some similar thinking, therefore, would be helpful here.

Adam Berman: I do not completely agree. I do not think there is a big problem of definition, but I would say that we need to ensure it is consistent with the CCC’s existing language and with the technologies that it thinks are consistent with the sixth carbon budget. Clean energy may encapsulate all of them, but I think we would have to make sure that it includes established mature renewables, nuclear, carbon capture, utilisation and storage and hydrogen, just to leave those options on the table. I do not disagree with Dan that there needs to be a focus, but GB Energy needs to at least be given the option to engage in the technologies where it thinks there may be additionality in terms of bringing in GBE’s involvement.

Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Olivia Blake and Andrew Bowie

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Bowie]

Q Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Buckland. Obviously you come from the perspective of a company that is investing—alongside others that are investing—in the future technologies that will guide us towards net zero and a clean future. One of the objects of Great British Energy, as clause 3 states, is that it should be involved in

“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”.

Do you see the Bill and the creation of GBE as an assistance in unlocking private capital and the investment that we need in the new technologies, or are you worried, as some are, that this might be a blockage and get in the way of the private sector?

Josh Buckland: I think that that is the right question to ask. Ultimately, the amount of capital we need to invest in the energy transition is so significant that we will have to deploy and leverage in private finance at a scale that has not really been seen before, and any intervention from Government needs to play a role in unlocking that private capital. The Government have set out that Great British Energy will be mobilised with £8.3 billion of public capital. On the surface, that is a significant amount of money, but in comparison with the hundreds of billions that we will need to deploy through the overall transition, the way that it crowds in greater levels of private investment will be the key test of its success.

The Bill sets out a range of roles that Great British Energy could play, some of which could have a bigger impact on mobilising capital than others, and a range of different mechanisms that it could deploy. It is probably too early to tell whether the structure and the decisions it makes will mobilise capital at the scale that the Government intend, but the framework set out in the Bill will definitely give it the potential to do so.

[Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)]

Q I am interested to know whether there are any conditions that you would like to see put on the financial assistance provisions and their scope under clause 4, given your unique placement within the system.

Josh Buckland: The financial assistance statements set out in clause 4 are relatively broad; they give Great British Energy the ability to invest in a variety of ways. It comes back to the question of how you create value through Great British Energy. One of the key tests will be whether it can drive additionality, so whether it can deploy capital in a way the private sector cannot. That usually rests on two issues. One is whether it can invest earlier in the development curve when private investment at scale is tricky, so where there is technology risk or development risk. An alternative is whether it can invest on a sub-par basis, so effectively whether it can create catalytic capital—that is the terminology often used—in a way the private sector would not be able to.

Clause 4 could potentially do those things, and there is no restriction on its ability to do them, but obviously the Government have not yet said much about exactly what format these investments will take. That is not necessarily an issue from a legislative perspective. I have looked back at the legislation that underpinned the UK Infrastructure Bank and the Green Investment Bank, which I was involved with when I was in government, and both those Acts are relatively high-level in terms of the interventions and mechanisms that they can deploy. On the surface, there is nothing that restricts that. As the Government think about the deployment of Great British Energy, I imagine that they will want to set out how it will give more clarity to the private market on the sorts of interventions and mechanisms that it will look to deploy at scale.