Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Mary Glindon and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Absolutely. The Bill does allow us great flexibility in these areas and, to clarify, this does include amending fonts and alphanumeric markings, which is the intent of amendment 26. The Bill already provides for that, just to be absolutely clear. That is why we do not need to take additional powers to amend aspects of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, as suggested in new clause 10. The Bill already captures all the features that we may need to regulate, and allows that regulation to extend to non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products.

Amendments 39 to 43 effectively place a duty on the Secretary of State to consult on secondary regulations. As stated in the House on Second Reading, I want to make clear my commitment to undertaking, on the vape regulations, comprehensive consultation regarding, but not limited to, packaging, product requirements, flavours and changes to the MHRA vape notification scheme. I want to make it clear to the Committee that, of course, prior to those regulations we will engage in comprehensive stakeholder discussions. For that reason, it is not necessary for a legal duty of consultation to be placed on the Secretary of State in relation to the regulation-making powers. That would result in a loss of flexibility and speed. There may be occasions when we will need to make minor changes, or quickly adapt to emerging products. Of course, in the vast majority of cases, consultation is the right and proper thing to do, but we do not need this to be stipulated in the Bill. For those reasons, I ask hon. Members to withdraw or not press their amendments.

Clauses 61 and 63 provide the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care with a power to make regulations about the retail packaging of vaping products and nicotine products and to introduce other product requirements for vaping and other nicotine products. Vaping is never recommended for children. It risks addiction and unknown long-term health impacts while their lungs and brains are still developing. We must not replace one generation addicted to nicotine with another. We know that giving up nicotine is difficult because the body has to get used to functioning without it. Withdrawal symptoms include cravings, irritability, anxiety, trouble concentrating, headaches and other mental symptoms, so I say to those children currently thinking, “A vape is going to calm me for my GCSEs” that it is going to do the exact opposite. We need to get that message across to children.

Despite the clear health advice, there has been a significant and alarming rise in the number of children vaping. Data shows that the number of young people vaping has tripled in just the last three years and now one in five children has used a vape. That is incredibly alarming and it is unacceptable. We heard, in our vaping call for evidence, that children are attracted to vapes by the brightly coloured packaging and the use of child-friendly images such as cartoons. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston gave very good examples. Research on vape packaging has shown that reduced brand imagery can decrease the appeal to young people who have not previously smoked or vaped, and can do so without reducing the appeal of vapes to adult smokers trying to quit. To protect children from potential health harms of vaping, we must reduce the ways in which vaping appeals to them, and do so without impacting on adult smokers.

[Mary Glindon]

I am not sure whether this is the appropriate moment for this question, but the Minister is making such a good case for making vaping unattractive and stopping vapes being available to children that I want to ask whether she has considered the idea of the licensing scheme that the vaping industry has put together—I believe that it has been presented to the Government before, although perhaps not to the Minister, in her position—which it believes will control who sells and supplies vapes and provide a vast sum to support greater enforcement. I just ask that, incidentally, as a question that the Minister may be able to answer.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Mary Glindon and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Again, I appreciate the sentiments expressed and associate myself with all of them. The hon. Member for York Central requested that we put in primary legislation that vapes must be behind the counter. It is clear from the impact assessment and the consultation that that is the intention. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham points out, the reason for taking the powers is that doing so allows us to stay ahead of the next place they might be sold, for instance outside the shop, on a bus or outside a school—we can imagine all sorts of other ideas. It is important to have the regulations to get ahead of other ideas, rather than saying, “They shall be behind the counter.” That is why we are taking regulatory powers right across the Bill, so that answer holds for all the areas in which we are taking powers: we are taking them to stay ahead of an industry that has shown itself to be very imaginative and brutal in its determination to addict children. We need to stay one step ahead, and that is the plan.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Something has occurred to me rather later than sooner, as things often do. Vape shops are prolific in our town centres. Can anything be done to limit young people’s access to those shops, for instance a minimum age of entry, so that no one under 18 should be on the premises? I do not think that we have thought about that hitherto in our discussions.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s suggestion, and I will take it away and look at it. The immediate thing that springs to mind is that if someone is out with their children, it is difficult for them to say, “You stand out there; I am going in.” That could give parents concern. I take the point that, in a vape shop, someone cannot say, “Go and look at the toys while I choose my vapes,” but I can imagine all sorts of objections from a practical point of view. However, I will take the suggestion away and reflect on it.

[Mary Glindon]

Is it not the case that children are not allowed in bookies and betting shops? That is perhaps a similar situation.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

As I say, I accept the hon. Lady’s point and will reflect on it.

The broader point is that there is obviously a balance here. We want to exclude vapes from children, but we do not want to exclude vapes from adults who want to quit smoking, because that is the real prize that we are seeking to hang on to. The more difficult we make it for adults to access vapes as a quit aid, the more we are discouraging adults who, we have all agreed—violently—we want to stop smoking. That is the killer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend is exactly right, and I will run through the levels of fines for the benefit of hon. Members.

[Mary Glindon]

Is not the whole point of having fines that they act as a deterrent? We do not want lots of people just paying £100 because it is manageable. The thought that they may have to find £200 on the spot could be more of a deterrent. The reason we have these fines in the first place is that they act as deterrents, is it not?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I completely agree; the hon. Lady makes a good point. What people would see as a deterrent is an open question. I would see a £100 fine as a deterrent; I do not have £100 in my purse, so I would have to go to the cash point. I would not be keen to do that, and Members of Parliament earn quite a bit more than most retail workers. That is the truth of it. I actually think that setting the fine in line with the £90 fine for the offence of selling alcohol to someone under age is quite a material deterrent.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Mary Glindon and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q May I just clarify, then, that your members support the uplift in age, year on year? As you will no doubt be aware, there are some who challenge that and say, “Well, it shouldn’t keep escalating,” but the British Retail Consortium does support the idea of the increase, year on year, of the smoke-free generation, as so many of our other expert witnesses have done today. Would that be right? I do not want to put words in your mouth.

Adrian Simpson: It was definitely a point that came up quite a lot when we were debating this with members themselves. I would say that we are cautiously welcoming it, just because it will then bring about a level playing field for all retailers—because we know that these measures are not necessarily directed at our members, who are, as I say, in the legitimate, responsible retail sector. It will bring about a level playing field but, as I say, we might still need to see how it would operate in practice, I suppose, before we give it our wholehearted support.

[Mary Glindon]

Q I was just searching for a quote, which I think I cited in a debate last year, about a survey that had been commissioned about buying vapes. Out of the 28 vapes that were bought, 25 were illicit vapes. I presume that those are from places that are not responsible retailers—they clearly are irresponsible if they sell those. Are there a lot of retailers that do not subscribe to your organisation where this sort of thing could be occurring? If that is the case, how can we encourage them to become responsible retailers and join the consortium? What should be done? Do you try to reach out to retailers that you know are perhaps not the best and that you would like to see engage with your organisation to help to prevent this kind of illicit sale?

Adrian Simpson: Exactly. Our membership is predominantly the household-name retailers—the large retailers; the ones that certainly would not be selling illicit vapes. We have comprehensive supply chains, and our members put a lot of effort into making sure that their supply chains are operating with integrity, so that illicit products cannot enter them. I have not seen that report, but my feeling would be that the sellers mentioned in it are highly unlikely to be members of a reputable trade organisation. They might be ones that would not be looking for the same standards that our members would operate to.