General Aviation (Persons on Board, Flight Information and Civil Penalties) Regulations 2024

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Goschen about the importance of this SI. Unlike him, I am not a pilot but, like him, I am a former Transport Minister. I will raise two issues, both touched on tangentially by the noble Lord, Lord German.

The first is the general issue of penalties and enforcement. After yesterday’s long debate, there is increased emphasis on security of the borders and, with all parties agreed that we need to do something about the boats, I think there will be an incentive to look to general aviation to bring more illegal immigrants into the country. Some 400 airfields have no police, customs and excise or immigration presence, so there is a general issue about enforcement and penalties.

The civil penalty for non-compliance under paragraph 2.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum is £10,000. I assume that there are also other penalties available for someone who illegally brings in somebody, so on what basis has that figure been arrived at? Has the existing figure simply been carried forward, or does it line up with some other measurement?

Secondly, on Northern Ireland, Regulation 2 says:

“This regulation applies to an aircraft which … is expected to arrive in the United Kingdom, or … is expected to leave the United Kingdom”.


I assume that internal flights are excluded, as paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to “124,000 international GA flights”, so I assume that there is some other legislation that qualifies Regulation 2 and that the regulation applies only to an aircraft that is arriving in the UK from outside the UK.

Like the noble Lord, Lord German, I downloaded the latest guidance, General Aviation Guidance—January 2024, and came across this under paragraph 6 on customs requirements when travelling to the UK:

“Personal Allowances … If you’re travelling from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, you do not need to declare your goods if both of the following apply … you’re a UK resident … you have already paid both VAT and excise duty … on the goods in Great Britain”.


However, it goes on:

“You may need to declare your goods if any of the following apply … you’re not a UK resident … you have alcohol or tobacco over your allowances … you have goods worth more than £390”.


As I understand it, someone who arrives in this country from America, for example, and then goes to Northern Ireland has to declare his goods because he is not a UK resident. However, the next paragraph says:

“If you’re travelling from Northern Ireland to Great Britain … you do not have to declare any goods”.


There seems to be a bit of a mismatch in the requirements of what you have to do if travelling from here to Northern Ireland or coming back the other way.

I do not expect my noble friend to have the answer at his fingertips, but it is worth posing the question. If I am a pilot taking an American citizen on general aviation to Northern Ireland, what is my obligation to cross-question him about what he has in his luggage, and what penalties will I be exposed to if, by any chance, I get it wrong?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, these are generally sensible regulations. There have been some very interesting points. The contribution from the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, about being sensible—he flies in and out of these sorts of airfields—is useful to our consideration. There were also some interesting points from the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord German, particularly on Northern Ireland, which is always a complicating factor with respect to regulations, not least because people could land in Dublin and because of the interaction with the common travel area, et cetera. There are some interesting questions for the Minister.

It is worth placing on record for people who read our deliberations quite how serious an issue this is and how welcome it is that the Government are seeking to tighten it up. The noble Lord, Lord Young, alluded to that. Some 400 airfields currently operate 124,000 general aviation flights. That is a huge number of flights. I appreciate that many will be individuals, but it is still a significant number. Although we hear that the majority conform with the Government’s current regulations, 10% do not. It is welcome that the Government say quite categorically that none of these various airfields can be policed routinely—I think that is the word the Government used—by Border Force officials or police officers. Again, you do not have to be an intelligence expert to realise that there is potentially a real problem here, so the Government’s attempt to tighten this up through the requirement for people to submit information online is a welcome step forward.

The Minister very helpfully answered a couple of questions for me prior to this debate. I know it is not the subject of the SI, but I wonder whether the Government are considering this issue with respect to seaports. I take the point about Dover or Holyhead, but international shipping must come in and out of numerous other ports. If we are talking about the necessity of borders, I wonder whether the Government are giving any consideration to whether any changes are needed with respect to that. I appreciate that is outside the scope of these regulations, but I wanted to ask the Minister that. Perhaps he could answer by letter.

There is clearly a major issue here that the Government need to deal with. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Young, is especially pertinent: how will all this new information be monitored and enforced? How can we be sure that the Government will be able to do this effectively? If this information is coming into Border Force, it is really important that it can be collected and utilised. If I have read the regulations right, the information has to be provided not 48 hours before the flight but up to two hours before. How were those figures arrived at? I ask because if, two hours before, something arrives into Border Force and it is a problem, is that sufficient time to respond? I do not know. It clearly has not been plucked out of thin air, so I wondered whether the Minister could say something about how the figures of 48 and two were arrived at.

On the territorial extent, if this is obvious then I apologise, but I think it is worth putting on record that the regulations talk about the United Kingdom. Are the Channel Islands are added on, or not? Are Jersey and Guernsey, and the Isle of Man, subject to these regulations, or not?

Lastly, without repeating the questions from the noble Lords, Lord German and Lord Young, and the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, military flights are clearly excluded under Regulation 3. Military personnel are exempted; I understand that and obviously agree with it. Can the Minister say something about what that means for intelligence services and for diplomats flying in and out? If there is an exemption for military personnel, I wonder whether the Minister can say anything —he may be constrained on this—around intelligence and/or diplomatic flights coming in and out.

As I say, the integrity and policing of our borders is obviously a really important matter. This instrument will help in a proportionate way and, subject to the answers to a couple of those questions, which will help inform discussions when it goes to the other place, these regulations are generally to be welcomed.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

The moment the statement was made last Thursday, and it was clear that legislation was needed, we decided to change the business of the House, and a statement was made at the earliest opportunity.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

What a fiasco! Why does the House have to wait until Thursday before it debates the emergency legislation when the Home Office has known about this for six weeks? Will the Home Secretary be able to tell us what the current situation is with respect to those on police bail? How many people are being let out who should not be? How many people do not know what is happening? Should there not be an emergency statement now, rather than waiting until next Thursday?

[Sir George Young]

Yes to all the questions except the last one, which is no.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Thursday 16th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I have some good news for my hon. Friend. The Government will shortly be introducing a legal aid and sentencing Bill, which will give him an opportunity to share his views with the House at greater length.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House find time for an urgent statement enabling the Business Secretary to explain to the House why the Government are refusing to sign a United Nations convention that protects the rights of domestic workers? On the day of the announcement to that effect, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions was supporting an inquiry into modern-day slavery. It is about time that the Government got their act together.

[Sir George Young]

Questions to my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary will take place on 14 July, but in the meantime I will draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to the hon. Gentleman’s question and ask him to reply to it.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman raises an issue that I have already dealt with. The coalition agreement is absolutely clear that on this particular issue Liberal Democrats are entitled to abstain.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House arrange for an urgent debate on the provision of speech and language therapy in schools? Dylan Scothern is a six-year-old autistic boy, the son of Rachel Scothern, a constituent of mine. Because he is six years of age, he has had speech and language therapy taken away from him on the basis that he is too old. That is clearly ridiculous. Whatever the situation, an autistic boy needs speech and language therapy. The decision to provide it only for children up to the age of five is nonsense, and Dylan deserves better than that.

[Sir George Young]

Of course he does. I am not aware that there has been any change of policy by the coalition Government on this issue. I think that we are carrying forward the policy that we inherited, with which the hon. Gentleman may be familiar.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Thursday 9th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend asks a good question. Under the previous Government, a whole range of public appointments were made subject to the appropriate Select Committee validating or commenting on them—an extra tranche of names was added towards the end of the previous Parliament. We will certainly keep that under review. We are anxious that Select Committees have a role to play in key public appointments.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate or statement on the answering of written parliamentary questions? In July, I tabled a number of named day questions to the Department for Education, but they were not answered before the recess. I returned to Parliament after the recess expecting all of them to be answered on 6 September, but not all were. I would appreciate his help in getting them answered. We know the difficulties that that Department has at the moment, but answering written questions, which gives MPs the information we need to hold the Government to account, is essential.

[Sir George Young]

I apologise if there has been any discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman because his questions have not been answered promptly, and I will pursue the issue later today with my colleagues.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Thursday 24th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate on the answering of written questions with respect to a named day? Last Monday, I was expecting an answer from the Treasury to a named day written question about the distributional impact of a 1% rise in VAT. Given that the right hon. Gentleman has just quoted the Red Book, is he not astonished that I am yet to receive an answer to that question?

[Sir George Young]

I am genuinely sorry if there has been any discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman, and I will draw to the attention of my ministerial colleagues at the Treasury the need to get him an urgent reply.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Coaker

Thursday 27th May 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and if he is quick he can table—I think—an oral question for 2 June, when the Health Secretary will be at the Dispatch Box and in a position to deal with the inequities to which my hon. Friend refers.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on advice given by civil servants to Ministers, with particular reference to the advice used by the Chief Secretary yesterday to say that the future jobs fund, which many of us regard as a major success of the previous Government, is not working? We would all like to see that advice. Will the Leader of the House assure us that we can have a debate on that matter?

[Sir George Young]

There will be a debate on that matter, because the Department for Work and Pensions has a day in the debate on the Queen’s Speech. The fund is not being abolished; it is being phased out and fed into—[Laughter.] It is not being abolished with immediate effect; it is being run down, and the new work programme will take over. As I said, however, there will be an opportunity during the Queen’s Speech debate for the hon. Gentleman to press the issue about the advice given to Ministers.