Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Worthington

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington]

With respect, no. The noble Lord’s point is correct. When the Minister started to discuss this amendment the statement was made that Clause 10 “will require”. It does not. Clause 10 is an enabling power that enables regulations to be made at the Government’s discretion subject to consultation and publication of the zero-emission vehicles strategy, which we are all waiting for and I am sure will contain lots of statements about the need to roll out charging infrastructure to places other than motorway service stations. It is wrong to represent this clause as requiring anything and wrong to miss the opportunity to take a wider enabling power now, otherwise we will have to be back here in six months taking it another time.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I can assure the noble Baroness that it is the Government’s intention to use the powers designated in Clause 10, but we want to consult first on exactly which destinations are included in the definitions. It is our intention to use the powers we seek to have in Clause 10. As I said, the powers we seek would allow the Government to—

[Baroness Worthington]

I am sorry to interrupt again, but could the noble Lord clarify that? The powers will be used and a consultation will be undertaken about which destinations they will apply to, but the Bill is very specific and narrow and says that it will be only large petrol retailers and service station providers. That is the point we are making: it is too narrow. It is not even what is necessary. The Minister has given a long list of private sector movement. Most service stations already have charge points. That is one place where you can find them. We are talking about a much wider, countrywide need, specifically—when we come on to the next group of amendments—a city-led, demand-led process that Clause 10 could enable but does not as drafted.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The consultations I was referring to concern the definition of a large service station. We have not defined that and that is the consultation we want to embark on. Once that consultation has been completed, it is the Government’s intention to use the powers under Clause 10 to make progress and designate areas where we want more charge points.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am possibly more aware than anyone else in the Chamber of the strength of feeling that we have had during debate on this issue. I understand where my noble friend is coming from but I would be misleading him if I said that I could give the commitment he asks for.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I am afraid that I cannot say I am any clearer or more reassured as to the logic behind the Government’s position on this issue. It feels to me as if, at some point in the distant past, a decision was made on behalf of all EV owners in the country that long-distance journeys were the problem. Where is the evidence that that is the case? What are the Government basing their policy on? Can we see the consultation document which asked, “What is your biggest fear about driving an electric vehicle?” The only consultation I have been able to find had five leading questions related to large fuel retailers and one open-ended question. The analysis of the responses indicates that there is almost no difference between those who supported mandatory provisions on fuel retailers and those who said, “We want them everywhere”. There is no evidence. I urge the Government, please, before Third Reading to come into dialogue to discuss this clause, so that we can get to the bottom of where the evidence is for it. If we can do that, although I reserve the right to bring back an amendment at Third Reading given the widespread support expressed today, then I will be happy to withdraw my amendment.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Worthington

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the co-pilot is in charge of this group of amendments. Like other noble Lords, I start by declaring my interest as we approach Part 2 of the Bill. Two and a half years ago I bought an all-electric vehicle with the assistance of a government grant, and with the assistance of a government grant I had a charge point installed on the outside of my home. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that I drive past where he lives in my electric car and in so doing I avoid polluting the atmosphere he absorbs in his Thames-side residence. I am sorry that my noble friend and I were not at the dinner last night, which sounds very interesting and one where a range of views were expressed. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that I am delighted with the all-electric vehicle that I have and I hope it will not be two and a half years before he considers joining me and others in your Lordships’ House in owning one.

The whole Bill is about giving the Government powers. It is essentially an interventionist Bill. I will explain why we are cautious about this group of amendments, which would change the regulations in this part of the Bill from ones that “may” be introduced to ones that “must” be introduced. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for the opportunity to discuss this matter and I hope to explain why removing flexibility in this way would weaken the Government’s ability to respond to the rapidly developing markets and technology for electric vehicle infra- structure—objectives which I think are widely shared.

Using “may” rather than “must” is quite usual for this type of legislation. A recent and relevant example is the Energy Act 2016, which contains powers to make regulations but not an obligation to do so. The clauses in this part of the Bill are designed to address particular issues in particular ways. In general, the Government want to regulate only if they have to, in particular where there is market failure. We are taking the powers because we might need them and we want to send out the right signals, but we hope it will not be necessary in every case. Removing flexibility by requiring that regulations are introduced could increase the risk of the Government intervening in a way that is unhelpful and at the wrong time. This is particularly important where, as in this case, the market and technology are at early stages of development.

Noble Lords may be aware that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee had the following to say about the Government’s approach:

“We consider that, on this occasion, the Department has provided convincing reasons for Part 2 of the Bill to consist solely of enabling powers. According to the Department, because of the relative newness of electric vehicle charging technology, the factors affecting the installation and operation of charging points are at an early stage of development, and the market for supporting the charging infrastructure is also developing. Accordingly it is not yet clear what areas of regulation covered by the Bill may be required or (if required) what the nature of the regulation should be”.


The Competition and Markets Authority has also shared its view that the nascence of this market is reason to be cautious when introducing secondary legislation in this area, because of the fast-moving nature of technological advances and the need to ensure the healthy development of competition. It advised the Government to be flexible in their approach to implementing regulations so as to be able to react to future market changes, and to be careful not to restrict the ability of markets to adapt.

I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, was reassured by the policy scoping notes circulated by my noble friend on 3 May, which explain in more detail the conditions in which we would look to introduce regulations. These notes also explain that we intend to introduce regulations under Clause 13 on smart charge points shortly after Royal Assent. However, even in that case, flexibility is still important. We want to ensure thorough consultation prior to introducing regulations and this will be an important process which we do not want to pre-empt. We would not want to close down the possibility that by the end of this process the Government decide that regulations under this clause should not be introduced or that only some should be introduced.

Amendment 101 is about requiring draft legislation for all regulations under this part within 12 months of the passing of the Bill. As I have just explained, the introduction of regulations will depend on the precise circumstances at the time. Producing draft regulations prematurely could be an unhelpful signal to markets, with various unintended consequences, and could stifle innovation.

While I understand and am grateful that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is seeking ways of strengthening the Bill, I hope she might agree that these amendments would in fact reduce its flexibility, which could in turn have a significant impact on the Government’s ability to react appropriately to this rapidly developing market and technology. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness might feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I am afraid that I am not at all reassured. This is obviously a new aspect of transport but it certainly did not arrive just yesterday. We have had electric vehicles on our roads for a number of years, with plenty of time for users of those vehicles to tell us that some significant problems need to be addressed if they are to be taken up wholesale.

I am left with the impression that I was correct: this is merely a Bill about signalling. It could be described as greenwash if one was being unkind. In fact, the Minister referred to signals. I feel that there should be a duty on the Government to assess whether they need legislation or not. If they need the legislation, let us pass it; if they do not, we can save ourselves a lot of time, effort and money in assembling here to debate what purports to be a Bill but is in fact simply a set of statements. It will probably be no more impactful on the industry than the Secretary of State’s statements that we are going to ban all internal combustion engines by 2040, which again is, frankly, simply not good enough.

This is a serious issue. Air quality and climate change should be taken as seriously as all things which harm people and are outside their control—their ability to effect change. The Government have a duty to do something about these critical issues for people who cannot act themselves. They must stand up to the car manufacturers and sweep away the problems that are preventing people moving to cleaner and zero-emission vehicles of all kinds. I am afraid that I am not reassured. Nothing has given me any sense of reassurance, other than Clause 13. The Government could have written a Bill with just Clause 13 in it, although that would have looked rather ridiculous. But by the sound of things, that is exactly what we are doing: passing a Bill with merely one clause in it.

I am sorry to say that I am not reassured. I hope that there will be a meeting forthcoming after Committee, where perhaps we can discuss this further, but at this stage I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Worthington

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington]

In moving Amendment 89, I shall speak to other amendments in this group. I should perhaps comment that we have seen Clause 11 stand part of the Bill, which we have touched on but not properly mentioned; it is a very important part of the Bill, and I am glad that it is in there. Like Clause 13, it feels like an essential part of what makes this Bill worth doing. The provision of information to consumers is hugely important and is currently very fractured and frustrating.

I am encouraged by the scoping note showing that the Government’s thinking on Clause 13 is fairly well advanced, so we can expect regulations quite soon. The amendments in my name make a simple point; as drafted, the clause appears to provide powers to make regulations about the sale and installation of charge points, but we simply wanted to ensure that they were also used and that the smart capabilities were used. There is no point in requiring them to be made available if there is no similar requirement that they are switched on, working and useful for consumers. I am not entirely sure that our wording is exactly right, and I would very much welcome discussing this further.

The intent of the amendments is to say that we know that the advent of electrification in transport provides a potentially great way to balance our supply and demand on the grid. The Environmental Defense Fund in Europe and WWF have had a great collaboration with the National Grid around making more visible what is happening on our grid at any given point. We helped to launch a carbon intensity tool with them, which shows you in real time how clean the grid is. On a sunny, windy day like the one that we have just had, you will find that the carbon per kilowatt hour generated is now below 100 grams. That is an extraordinary testimony to the amount of hard work and effort that has gone into encouraging investment into clean-air forms of electricity. There will be times in the day and month when it is extraordinarily clean to charge your infrastructure, your vehicles and indeed heat needs from the grid. That will unlock a huge potential for batteries in vehicles and, indeed, homes, to be used as part of the grid’s balancing of supply and demand, soaking up the excess when there is excess and then providing back to the grid at times of need.

It is great that this provision is in the Bill. We would just like to have reassurances that there will be regulations to cover the use as well as the installation and sale of the smart components of this hugely important part of the charging infrastructure. I beg to move.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, as the co-pilot again, I am grateful for this opportunity to discuss smart charging, which helps electric vehicles benefit both their owners and the energy system.

In broad terms, smart charging helps to shift, where possible, the times when EVs recharge their batteries to off-peak periods, when electricity is cheaper and cleaner and the network has more capacity. I was interested in the information given by the noble Baroness about the cleanliness of the power from the grid at any particular point in time—and the incentive that might give environmentally conscious consumers to use that information to decide when to charge their vehicle—and let me reassure the noble Baroness that we want this capacity to be used. In practice, this could be done, for example, by a signal being transmitted to a smart charge point, which then responds to the signal by increasing or decreasing the rate of charge. The charge point could have its own metering system, or it could potentially be integrated with a smart meter in domestic cases.

Clause 13 helps create the right environment for smart charging by ensuring that all new charge points have the smart functionality that the noble Baroness spoke about. The clause is technical in nature and is not about specifying how customer behaviour is influenced. This is likely to be done by price signals, and we are working with the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets, which regulates this market, and with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, to facilitate such an approach.

Amendment 89, from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, seeks to do two things: first, to require, with caveats, the use of smart charging systems; and secondly, to require, with caveats, the use of intelligent metering systems. As the noble Baroness has set out, the rationale for the amendment is to enable smart charging to reduce costs and carbon emissions for consumers as well as helping the energy system to balance the peaks and troughs of electricity supply and demand. I wholeheartedly agree with these goals, and that is what Clause 13 does—it enables smart charging by requiring all charge points to have this functionality. The current version of the clause seeks to allow this to be done by incentives, such as price. If that is the intention of the amendment, we do not think it is needed.

However, another interpretation of the amendment—possibly unintended by the noble Baroness—goes further than that and, subject to caveats, creates a requirement for smart charging rather than allowing incentives. The problem with this approach is simply one of unintended consequences. First, if smart charging was a requirement, the relevant energy companies would not need to pass on any benefits to the consumer. They would not need to give a discounted price for charging at certain times of the day because the consumer would already be required to do this by law. Secondly, the amendment would mean a significant level of government interference in domestic consumer behaviour if it essentially meant dictating when a consumer could and could not charge. That may not have been the intention of the noble Baroness, but I am advised by those who know more about the legislation than I do that that would be a potential impact.

On the second part of the amendment, on intelligent metering, I hope that the noble Baroness is reassured that Clause 13 can already prescribe such a system. The example given in Clause 13(2)(d) is to require the charge point,

“to monitor and record energy consumption”.

The effect of this part of the amendment would therefore be to make such metering mandatory and to use the specific definition in the amendment rather than the current approach of allowing consultation to help decide whether smart metering is necessary, and if so what precise definition to use. For example, by 2020 every household in the UK should be offered a smart meter, which may make additional intelligent metering in the smart charge point unnecessary.

Amendment 92 seeks to require the smart charge point to react to information in a “prescribed fashion”. We do not think that Amendment 92 is needed. Clause 13(2)(b) is an example of the requirements under Clause 13, and regulations under Clause 13 can already prescribe how the charge point reacts to information.

Amendment 94 seeks to require that information relating to the use of charge points, such as availability and price of charging, is made available in a prescribed format. It also seeks to ensure that charge points have the ability to reserve time slots for drivers to charge their vehicles. That is precisely the intention of Clause 11, which would require operators of public charge points to make available prescribed information. The policy scoping notes provide a list, which is not exhaustive, of all of the types of information that operators may be required to make available to users, including: location; operating hours; cost of accessing and using the charge point; method of payment or access; means of connection; whether the point is in working order; and whether it is in use.

Regulations brought forward under this clause would also give the Government the ability to ensure the provision of open source data on public charging points in a standardised format. This would mean that the data would be available to anyone wanting to use it, enabling service providers such as app developers and satnav companies to utilise the information to create services, such as apps, for drivers. The provision of open source “live” data could also support the provision of services that would enable drivers to reserve charge points.

Amendment 97 in this group was not spoken to or moved, so if the Committee will forgive me, I will not address it.

I thank noble Lords for raising the importance of smart charge points. I hope I have given some reassurance that this clause and the other measures I have outlined will help to create the right environment for smart charging while avoiding onerous requirements on consumers. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness might withdraw this amendment.

[Baroness Worthington]

I thank the Minister for his response. I am not fully reassured. This seems to come down to whether we put in regulations or allow the market to set incentives as regards whether this smart capability will be part of our future charging infrastructure. I can see that to rely on market incentives might mean that the consumer is much more vulnerable than if we were to regulate. The reason for that is because of my experience in America, where all electricity bills are set, state-by-state, by different regulations. Where there are few protections and regulations, the market prices the marginal excess use very highly. If there are no protections, you find that if you tip over a certain volume of electricity use, your charge per unit spikes enormously, which means that people are vulnerable to failing to realise that they have gone over that threshold. So in this instance the market cannot necessarily be relied on to provide the right incentives, and it may lead to a considerable exposure to risk for consumers who are not perhaps fully informed. Therefore I do not fully believe that we should just leave this to the market.

I take the point that regulating to insist that, for example, time of use tariffs are in place everywhere may also not be the answer. However, we definitely need to do something here to ensure this. We may not put this on to the super-rapid chargers or the rapid chargers in the motorway infrastructure, because there you may well need to charge at 5 pm when you are en route somewhere, and you do not want to be exposed to differential prices. However, the vast majority of charging—the backbone of this—will be done at home, or as at-destination charging, and there is a need to set some standards and regulatory requirements there on the use of the smart capability. I come back to the fact that while Clause 13 is welcome, it just covers the sale and installation and does not do enough to reassure me that we will also talk about the usage of that smart capability. I would like to come back to this, but I recognise that the wording we have may not be perfect, and it would be good to talk about it further. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.