House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Hayman

Report stage
Wednesday 9th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 23, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and I will add a brief footnote to his speech.

When this country is confronted with a controversial issue, it frequently turns to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, for an answer. Those of us with long memories recall his Committee of Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs in 1999 and his Independent Commission on Freedom of Information in 2015. No sooner was that completed than we had the Burns commission on the size of the House in 2016. That followed a debate on 5 December 2016, in which the House agreed, without a Division, that

“its size should be reduced and method should be explored by which this should be achieved”.

The Burns report recommended that the size of the House should be reduced to that of the other place—then 600, now 650—and that the target should be achieved over time by a two out, one in rule. It suggested that, when it reached the cap, new appointments should reflect the result of the last election and be on a one in, one out principle. The report was welcomed by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee in the other place.

We debated that on 19 December 2017; 72 noble Lords spoke and there was general approval. Winding up, the noble Lord, Lord Burns, said:

“The question I asked myself and members of the committee asked themselves was whether we should wait to make any progress on these other issues until we had a slot for legislation, or should try to put together a system that could be worked on on a non-legislative basis, but which legislation could be brought to bear on at a later point. That certainly remains my position, having heard the points that have been made today”.—[Official Report, 19/12/17; col. 2106.]


That is what then happened. We proceeded on a non-legislative basis and it clearly has not worked—the House is bigger now than it was then. That is not because noble Lords have not risen to the challenge by retiring—or, indeed, dying—but because, with the notable exception of my noble friend Lady May, Prime Ministers have been overgenerous with their appointments.

As the non-legislative option proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, has not worked, we are left with the other option—legislation—and that is now before us. Winding up for the Lib Dems, their then spokesman Lord Tyler confirmed his party’s support for legislation, if the voluntary scheme failed. He said:

“Unless the Prime Minister is willing to abide by this constraint, we might as well give up now, and without a statutory scheme her successors cannot be held to her agreement in law either”.—[Official Report, 19/12/17; col. 2098.]


I then looked up what the current Leader said in that debate, when she was Leader of the Opposition. I quote:

“are any of the objections that have been raised insurmountable?”

These are the objections to the Burns report. She went on:

“I do not consider that they are but there is one insurmountable issue: the role of the Prime Minister and of the Government. This will work only if the Government play their part. It is not about giving up patronage or appointments but about showing some restraint, as it used to be”.


Since then, there has been no restraint. She concluded:

“If the House and the Government are to show respect for the work they”—


the Burns committee—

“have done, we will take this forward. I noted that a number of noble Lords quoted from songs and plays. I will quote Elvis Presley, when he sang, ‘It’s now or never’”.—[Official Report, 19/12/17; col. 2104.]

Clearly, then it was not “now”, but nor need it be “never”. If we meant what we unanimously voted for in 2016, we should support Amendment 23. We may never get the opportunity again.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak briefly in support of this amendment, to which I have added my name. The noble Lord, Lord Burns, has come up with an elegant formulation—as he did several years ago in the committee he chaired—for a way out of the conundrum that we have. However good our provisions in terms of people leaving the House are, if we do not have any constraint—any guardrails at all—on people coming into the House, when we have a general election where there is a large majority, we will always see the ratcheting effect. We have seen that recently; there is every possibility that we will see it again in the future. It is tremendously important that we try to take some steps now.

The size of the House overall does matter. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Gove, is in his place, and I am delighted that he obviously has become deeply affectionate and committed to the work of this House. I disagreed with most of his speech, but one thing he said that was incorrect was that the House was in danger of being bullied by those outside into thinking that it was too big and had to change. That is not the situation. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, just said, this House has repeatedly recognised the need for it not to grow exponentially, and has repeatedly recognised the danger of it being larger than the House of Commons. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Gove, that other second chambers across the world manage to find the right combination of expertise and experience without rising in their overall numbers to pretty near four figures—which is where we are in danger of going.

I believe it is tremendously important. There are those who say, “Oh, it doesn’t matter. Look at the average attendance figures. People aren’t claiming their allowances. None of this matters”. I spent five years as Lord Speaker and, in those five years, I do not know how many speeches I made about the House of Lords. The thing that most people knew about the House of Lords was not that it was brilliant at scrutiny, and not that it had fantastic Select Committees, but that only China’s National People’s Congress, in the whole world, had more members.

That issue of reputation should not be the only one that drives us; we should recognise that we need a House peopled with enough Members to do the job we ask it to do, but we do not have to have an expert on every single issue in the world. We have Select Committees that can call for evidence; we can hear that expertise. We need a House of a reasonable size and I suggest that it should be no larger than the House of Commons. Others have suggested much smaller Houses. They look at the United States Senate. They look across the world and say that other people manage with less. I believe that, as a part-time House, we need larger numbers because not everyone is here all the time and that is important—

Public Appointments: Diversity

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Hayman

Thursday 9th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I welcome the suggestion from the right reverend Prelate. An event was held at Windsor called Faith in Leadership to encourage those with a faith perspective to apply for public appointments. In response to his suggestion, we are anxious to learn any lessons that the Church may have to ensure that the recommendations in the disability review go forward. So the short answer to the right reverend Prelate’s question is yes.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, for people who do not have a conventional CV, the confidence to make an application for a board appointment can itself be a barrier? I believe that some important work has been done in Northern Ireland to give potential candidates, with talent but perhaps suffering from one of those barriers—it might well be class, as much as gender—experience of serving on a board and seeing how one functions to prepare them to be competent and able board members.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

That is a very helpful suggestion from the noble Baroness. One of the recommendations in the review was that we should seek out talent, encourage people to apply who might otherwise not have done and then support them through the process. There is also an issue about the visibility of appointments, in that there is a risk of this applying just to a self-selecting group if one does not reach out to underrepresented groups. I am very happy to learn from the experience in Northern Ireland to which the noble Baroness referred.

House of Lords: Size

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Hayman

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Prime Minister set out the Government’s plans in her four-page letter to the Lord Speaker dated 20 February, which I referred to. There are two basic elements. One is restraint on appointments; the Prime Minister has said that she will sign up to it and I think that she has already shown that. The other is to take forward the work which the noble Lord, Lord Burns, referred to yesterday. The Government are prepared to play their part in those discussions as the Burns committee continues its work.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

Rather than the Government just being prepared to play their part, is there not a part for the Leader of the House to play in bringing together the leaders of the other groups? Does the Minister not agree—indeed, he pointed this out acutely yesterday—that relying on retirements and, even more so, on deaths produces an unfair and disproportionate result between the parties? If we are to succeed by our own volition in reducing the size of the House, we need the leaders of those groups to come together and agree on a fair formula so to do.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness makes a powerful case. The Government will play our part, within the framework of the Burns committee recommendations, in getting the size of the House down. That committee has now been reconvened and the Government will listen carefully to any proposal that it makes. We are anxious to play our part in reducing the size of the House. As I have said before, and without wishing to be provocative, we have led the way, in promoting retirements from our Benches.

Hereditary Peers: By-elections

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Hayman

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend will know that that is a matter not for legislation but for the Standing Orders of the House. If the House wanted so to do, it could do that without the noble Lord’s Bill or any action by the Government. It is entirely a matter for the Standing Orders of the House, as my noble friend Lord Cope mentioned in one of our debates.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman]

My Lords, this House is involved in very serious business at the moment. It was therefore very good to hear the Minister’s robust defence of the actions that this House has taken in scrutinising legislation and doing its constitutional duty of asking the other place to think again—if it thinks it should do that and it is appropriate. But it is subject to a great deal of criticism for doing that constitutional duty at the moment. Does that not make it much more important and urgent that, at this time, we take action against things that are indefensible, including both the size of the House and the nonsense of hereditary Peers’ by-elections?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government are giving a fair wind to this Bill and I can say from the Dispatch Box that the Government have no plans to block it or obstruct it.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Hayman

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, looking beyond the issue of restraint at the current time, the conclusion of the report was:

“Our proposals would only work, though, if the Prime Minister (and her successors) undertook to appoint no more new members than there were vacancies, and to do so in the proportions implied by our recommendations”.


As has been said, the agreement of the Prime Minister is absolutely central to implementation of the report, and that was stressed throughout the debate. The Leader of the House was in listening mode during that debate. I ask the Minister: has the Leader had the opportunity to discuss the issues with the Prime Minister, and if she has not yet, will she do so in the very near future?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

As the noble Baroness said, my noble friend sat through nearly all the speeches in that debate. I can say that she will be having a discussion with the Prime Minister to discuss both the Burns report and the debate that we had in this House, and the Government’s recommendations or views will be known in due course. I hope the House will understand that there were only three sitting days after the debate on 19 December. We have been back after Christmas for only three days. The Prime Minister has had personnel matters on her mind in the meantime. So I think the Government are entitled to a little bit of time before they come out with their views.