United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the compelling speech of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. I have added my name to Amendment 10 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Anderson of Ipswich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted.

As I said in Committee, it is essential that all the nations within the UK can pursue effective policies on public health, which is my particular interest. Last Friday, the Public Services Select Committee, of which I am a member, published its first report on the lessons from coronavirus for public services. One of the key recommendations to the Government was that there is an urgent need to recognise the vital role of public health in reducing deep and ongoing inequalities exacerbated by Covid-19. Unamended, the Bill makes that task more difficult.

While the committee welcomed the Government’s commitment to extend healthy life expectancy by five years by 2035, and to narrow the gap between the richest and the poorest, we also recognised that this would be tough to deliver. We called on the Government to wait no longer before publishing their strategy to achieve this manifesto commitment and their response to the Green Paper Advancing Our Health: Prevention in the 2020s, which was due in January this year.

Why is this relevant to these amendments? Currently, the internal market within the UK has the flexibility, through exclusions, to allow different parts of the UK to move at different speeds on public health. England was able to lead the way on restricting tobacco displays in shops; Scotland and Wales are currently ahead on policies such as minimum unit pricing for alcohol. However, the internal market Bill may limit future innovations, as the exclusions are both narrow and narrowly applied to only part of the market access principles.

While policies similar to those I just mentioned might be allowable, it is not difficult to identify future public health policies that would not. For example, in the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, the Government describe how these rules would allow a packet of crisps produced in or imported into any part of the UK to be sold in any other. However, this leaves little space for Governments within the UK to pursue future legislation that aims, for example, to restrict the salt content or size, or even to improve the labelling, of crisp packets. The justification for this is unclear, as articulated in a blog by the Institute for Government.

My view is that leaving the EU should not remove the ability we currently have for different parts of the country to move at different paces. This has meant that we have not had to move at the pace of the slowest, and the different parts of the UK can benefit from the experience of the market leader. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, made this point well. The Government have failed to explain why their list of exceptions is so much more restrictive than that of the EU or, indeed, the WTO. While the justifications are unclear, the risks are anything but. Unless the Bill is amended, some of this ability to innovate would be lost. This would be a step back for the UK, not a maintaining of the status quo.

The background over the last few years has been to give Holyrood and Cardiff more autonomy, not less. The Bill conflicts with that trend, helping to increase demands for independence and undermining the devolution settlement. It would not limit the ability of just the devolved nations to act, but that of England too. As part of its obesity strategy, the Department of Health and Social Care will consult on requiring calories to be included on alcohol product labels. The mutual recognition principle could hamper this legislation if alcohol produced in the rest of the UK was not required to display calories. Further, if overseas companies wished to avoid displaying calories, they could simply ensure that their imports arrived in another part of the UK before moving them to England for sale. When other noble Lords and I raised our concerns about this in Committee, my noble friend Lord Callanan, responding for the Government, was unyielding. Indeed, he said that the exclusions from market access principles were

“intentionally narrowly drafted, to ensure that there are no unnecessary trade barriers that would ultimately increase costs to businesses and consumers while reducing choice.”—[Official Report, 28/10/20; col. 339.]

The Government have demonstrated that they are willing to listen to the concerns of the House—for example, with the removal of the Secretary of State’s powers to change the scope of the mutual recognition principle—yet in other parts of the Bill they have suggested a relatively small adjustment, with the need to “consult with” but not “gain consent from” the devolved nations before using these powers. There has still been no movement on the limited nature of the public interest exceptions in the Bill, nor am I aware of any discussions on that, as I called for in Committee. That is why the amendments have been brought forward again on Report.

These amendments are supported by a wide range of health organisations: the British Heart Foundation, the British Lung Foundation, Asthma UK, Cancer Research UK, the Faculty of Public Health, the Mental Health Foundation, the Royal Society for Public Health, Action on Smoking and Health, and the Alcohol Health Alliance, for whose briefing I am most grateful.

I very much hope that, even at this late stage, the Bill might be amended and the Government might reflect the concerns that have been so widely shared on this subject.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support the general thrust of all the amendments in this group, and I have added my name to Amendments 10 and 21, which relate to goods. I should also have put my name to the services amendments, because both I and my group support those as well.

As was debated in Committee, we already worked under a more generalised public policy, legitimate aim regime while in the EU, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said, that provided safety valves, which have now been taken away. In Committee, the Minister argued that the UK internal market was different, and for some reason that meant that it needed to be narrower. I cannot understand why—perhaps because we are closer together—we have to have fewer freedoms because we have left the EU. Therefore, I agree entirely with the drafters of the amendments that there are many more legitimate aims that need to be spelled out.

Realistically, differences will not be introduced into the market without a lot of thought. As my noble friend Lady Humphreys said in Committee, Wales is a good size to experiment with. The noble Lord, Lord Young, gave examples of various nations progressing at different speeds. Differences will survive only when they are practical and when matters of good public policy all deal with specific problems within a particular area, but they should be allowed to be put to a proper test and should not be undermined from the start by immediate get-arounds.

These are important amendments, and I hope that the Government will consider carefully why it is necessary for the Bill to undermine the freedoms currently enjoyed. That is not how Brexit was advertised, whether you were for or against it.

Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 4th March 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I see that on the website of an organisation called This is Money, published on 20 January, Mr Opperman, who is of course the Minister with responsibility, is quoted as saying that he

“believes a new commission should review the future of the automatic enrolment system”.

Noble Lords may also remember that on 17 January, two think tanks, the Fabian Society and Bright Blue, launched a report calling for a cross-party commission on pensions. Responding to that, an organisation called B&CE published the following comments:

“Commenting, Guy Opperman MP, Minister for Pensions, said: ‘Over the last decade, Conservative and coalition governments have made huge strides to improve pensions for the next generation, with the introduction of auto-enrolment, an enhanced state pension and the development of the Pensions Dashboard. For the next stage of pension reform, we need to continue the consensus that emerged following the Pensions Commission of 2003 to 2005. A new Commission has cross-party support, and will help us map out the future of auto-enrolment, so we can boost contribution rates in the coming decades, and explore how we can support savers with pensions freedom reforms. Let’s not give up on the progress we’ve made in pensions through cross-party working. It’s time to explore ideas for the next generation’.”


It therefore seems that the thinking behind the proposed new clause in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has some support at the moment within the DWP.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young, has done the job for me, but broadly speaking, I support this amendment. As well as what has already been elaborated, it plays into the feelings that have come up several times as we discussed the Bill as well; namely that, although the noble Earl has said that there is policy, a lot of implementation is also yet to come, and perhaps some of us feel that some policy is also yet to come. I therefore hope that a commission could come along subsequently and that it would be able to have an overview of some of the newer things as well as reviewing older things and looking forward. Therefore, I also support the notion of having this pension schemes commission.

Brexit: European Investment Bank (European Union Committee Report)

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Yes, I will come to that. That is one of the most important themes that has run through this debate.

Many noble Lords mentioned investment in decarbonisation and in green projects. We have a suite of tools to support private investment in infrastructure. The contracts for difference scheme has made the UK a world leader in offshore wind. The world’s largest offshore wind farm, the Walney extension, opened off the coast of Cumbria in September last year. Elsewhere, the offshore transmission owner regime has brought down the cost of connecting offshore wind farms to the grid, and we have reached 96% superfast broadband coverage.

Also relevant to the debate on infrastructure is the UK Guarantees Scheme, delivered by commercial experts in the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which has £40 billion of capacity to ensure that good projects can raise the finance they need. We have given the UKGS additional flexibility to offer construction guarantees.

So while the EIB has been active in the UK market, it has worked within a successful and road-tested framework that supports investment. There is a strong appetite from the market to lend to UK infrastructure projects. Untypically injecting a note of party-political asperity, I mention that threats of renationalisation might constitute a threat to inward investment in UK infrastructure projects. We need to be absolutely clear that we do not frighten off the private sector from investing in infrastructure.

We recognise that there are still some challenges in financing infrastructure; for example, in how we respond to new technologies that carry higher risk and how we raise finance for very large projects. That is why at the Spring Statement earlier this year the Chancellor launched the Infrastructure Finance Review. This is looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the market, the role of the EIB, the Government’s existing tools and the institutional structures needed to deliver them. The review also explores a recommendation from the National Infrastructure Commission that if the Government do not maintain a relationship with the EIB, we should consult on establishing a new, operationally independent UK infrastructure finance institution. As the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, has just said, this links to the committee’s recommendation on consulting on a new UK infrastructure bank through the Government’s national infrastructure strategy.

This was one of the themes that I heard running through the debate: that this is something that the Government should consider very seriously. It was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Bruce, the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, and many others. The Government should reflect seriously on the points made not just by the committee in the report but during our debate about the need to try to replicate the characteristics of the EIB in generating crowding in of other investment, creating loans at a lower rate of interest and creating the stamp of approval, which was referred to earlier.

The formal consultation period closed in June, and while it is too early for me to share with noble Lords the formal results of the consultation, I can say that we have engaged widely and heard a range of views on the EIB, which we will consider when negotiating any future relationship. The Government have set out our intention to publish a national infrastructure strategy in the autumn. The results of the Infrastructure Finance Review will form part of that strategy, and there will also be a formal response to the consultation.

The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, asked whether UK business would be able to participate in Galileo post Brexit. In a no-deal scenario, future EU programme participation, including in Galileo, will need to be determined as part of any future relationship.

I am conscious that I may not have covered all the points raised in our debate and I will write to noble Lords on those that I have not dealt with. I cannot pre-empt the Government’s spending review at this stage. Obviously, that will be important when it comes to investing in infrastructure, but the Infrastructure Finance Review consultation shows that the Government are taking this issue very seriously.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and the noble Lord, Lord Butler, asked about debt management, the ONS and definitions. That is venturing into almost theological territory as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, will remember the Ryrie rules and the unending debate about whether or not something scored as public expenditure. It says in my brief that we will leave questions on the interpretation of the guidance to the experts at the ONS, which is an independent body. It is highly likely that a UK bank would fall within the PSND measure. However, the Government will take the views that we have heard on board as we develop our policy following the Infrastructure Finance Review.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted]

The point that I was trying to make with regard to ESA 2010 is that it should be in our laws because it was from the EU and we have actually now transposed it into our Brexit preparation legislation. It is not a question of us running on our own version of what we think national accounts are: we should be running on the version that we are supposed to have in our law. That is why there was ultimately the change with regard to student loans. I feel the urge coming upon me now to suggest that this must be looked at formally, because it appears that we have been doing it wrong. The response that the Minister just gave appears to be wrong. I have the advantage of having been chair of the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee at the time of ESA 2010 and, even more, I had to be the rapporteur because it was so complex that nobody else would do it. I have a reasonably good vision of this point because it was very important.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I have in front of me the relevant paragraph in the Select Committee report, which states that:

“The EIB’s liabilities do not feature on the national balance sheets of EU Member States”—


which was the point that the noble Baroness was just making—

“but we were told that a similar UK institution would almost certainly feature within the Government’s measure of public sector net debt. While such an institution would also have assets and would probably be able to fund the interest on its paid-in capital, this could have significant implications for the Government’s commitment to reduce public debt as a proportion of GDP”.

The report went on to say:

“The measure of Government debt does not fall within the scope of this inquiry”,


and that it,

“is for the Government to choose the best way to calculate public sector debt”.

The report then continued with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that,

“such accounting decisions should not determine economic decisions about the optimal form of support for long-term infrastructure investment in the UK”.

That is a proposition with which I broadly agree. At the end of the day, we have an independent ONS that resolves these theological decisions as to what does and does not score as public expenditure.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted]

I must come back very briefly. I was not saying where the EIB should or should not be; the point is that national investment banks should also not be within the public sector accounts. It is clearly made in The Role of National Promotional Banks (NPBs) in Supporting the Investment Plan for Europe, which was issued by the Commission on 22 July 2015.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I hope the eloquence of the noble Baroness will be heard by the ONS, which is at the moment the arbiter of what does and does not score. I have almost overrun my time. I thank once again all those who have participated in this debate. No doubt the committee will want to pursue this subject later this year when we have announced our conclusions on the consultation and have published our national infrastructure strategy and we have the result of the spending review. I hope that on that occasion the exchange may be more cordial.

Securitisation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Monday 25th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted]

The bits taken out of Articles 6(7)(a) and (b) related to topics on which the regulator—that will now be the UK—is to make binding technical standards. However, they were deleted so the regulator will not now make them. References to “synthetic” have also been removed. Does this mean that this has already been discounted? I would appreciate it if the Minister could clarify that point in his written responses.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness will know that under the withdrawal Act, we cannot make substantive policy changes using instruments such as this one, so whatever has happened should not be a major policy change. However, I generously accept her offer to write to her with a more detailed explanation of the changes she mentioned.

Money Laundering and Transfer of Funds (Information) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted]

When there is a change, will there be any kind of notification for businesses and others? One of the biggest problems that, if you like, completely innocent people can experience when they are transferring money is that it gets suspended somewhere while further checks are made. That is more likely once we have gone into a third-country regime than being in the EEA. If you are transferring money for the purchase of a property or something significant for your business with a contract attached, to suddenly find that your money has been delayed by several days or a week can mean that you are in breach of the contract. Because of the particular way in which the money laundering rules operate, we are not allowed to warn people because of the risk of warning the potential money launderer. People should at least be aware that the rules are switching because that would be useful to know in order to build in some certainty. I am thinking in particular of businesses. They will have to realise that they must send money with time to spare.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. The last thing we want is to have any turbulence at the point of transition or to have legitimate transactions held up. The FCA will be consulting with the banks and payment services providers concerned, particularly in the light of the transitional arrangements that I mentioned earlier. Of course they have known for some time that these changes are on the way so that they have been able to prepare for them. However, one of the consequences of what I have just said is that there does not have to be a sudden switchover on 30 March or 1 April because the Treasury and the FCA will be introducing transitional arrangements. There will be due warning before any change takes place.

Market Abuse (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, the chief executive of the FCA, Andrew Bailey, has said that he expects to hold FCA fees steady for a year or so, assuming that there is an implementation period. However, the FCA is able to increase its fees should it need to increase its income in the event of no deal.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

As we have got on to the subject of fees, when the credit rating agencies want to get approval from ESMA, they have to pay a fee. Therefore, will we not have a comparable fee or is it just all part of the steady-state budget?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

They will continue to have to pay a fee, so to that extent there will be no change, but instead of it going to ESMA, it will go to the FCA.

Furthermore, the SI will require firms to establish a legal entity in the UK to register with the FCA, in accordance with the current policy under CRAR. The SI provides the FCA with pre-exit powers so that it is able to begin registering firms, and the instrument will also establish three regimes to allow for FCA registration to smooth the transition from ESMA supervision to FCA supervision. First, UK-established CRAs will be able to convert their ESMA registration into one with the FCA through the conversion regime. Secondly, newly UK-established legal entities that are part of a group of CRAs that have a registration with ESMA will enter a temporary registration regime if they have submitted an advance application to the FCA which has not yet been processed. Thirdly, certified CRAs established outside the EU will, through the automatic certification process, be able to notify the FCA of their intention to extend certification to the UK.

The SI will also enable credit ratings issued by a CRA established in the UK, with an FCA registration, to be used for regulatory purposes in the UK. The instrument will also enable credit ratings issued before exit day by EU firms that register, or apply for registration, with the FCA to be eligible for regulatory purposes in the UK for up to a year.

In addition, in relation to appeal rights, given the new enforcement rules provided to the FCA, references to EU institutions will be replaced with the appropriate UK bodies. The Upper Tribunal will now be responsible for appeal requests that have been made as a result of an FCA decision, and the FCA’s warning and decision notice will apply to this SI also.

The Treasury has been working closely with the FCA in the drafting of these instruments. Both bodies have continuously engaged with CRAs and taken on board their views where possible when deciding on the direction of the instrument to ensure that the market is informed of its policy intention. The Treasury published the instruments in draft, along with an Explanatory Note for each, to maximise transparency to Parliament, industry and the public ahead of laying.

In summary, we believe that the proposed legislation is necessary to ensure that market abuse is effectively prohibited and credit rating agencies are appropriately supervised, and that the relevant legislation will continue to function appropriately if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or implementation period. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting these regulations.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted]

My Lords, the first thing that I noticed on page one of the draft instrument is that it says this is done not just under the EU (Withdrawal) Act but under the European Communities Act, but it does not tell us which bits are which. If you are trying to go through and ask whether this corresponds to the rules laid down in the EU (Withdrawal) Act, you do not know, because the rules under the European Communities Act are not exactly the same. I do not find any difficulty in what has been done here, and I have come across this before in other statutory instruments. But I think it would be good practice when you are doing it with powers in lots of different places if the relevant bit of the instrument were to say which the enabling power was instead of putting it in an anonymous way. But then, I am still learning about how these things are done in the UK.

I accept the points made by the Minister about what I call the symmetry point: that some bits here need to be retained, extending into EU territory, if I can put it that way, so that we know what is going on. Emissions trading is one example of that. Perhaps I should declare an interest on the register—the usual London Stock Exchange Group plc issue. How will we get information back into the UK from, for instance, the trading of UK instruments on exchanges in the EU? This is the other side of the trading obligation. If the EU says that you can trade only on recognised exchanges—there are exchanges that, for example, trade UK-listed shares—that means that, unless there is some kind of deal done, people will theoretically want to trade in the EU rather than the UK, or they will want to cut off trading in the EU so that they own the trade in the UK. We have concentrated on that when talking about trading obligations; we have not talked about what happens to the information from the trading venues that remain in the EU.

I am sorry that I had not thought this out previously; it just occurred to me while the Minister was speaking. This is something for the regulators and, probably, the Government to look at as we move forward and work out what the EU is going to do in respect of exchanging information with us. The exchanges provide data to the FCA so you can see whether there is any funny business going on; it is one of the methods of detection, as you can see spikes and so forth that might indicate something strange.

Another question on symmetry is that I wonder why we have bothered, in new paragraphs 5 and 5A on page 11 of the regulation, to list all the European organisations that still have exemptions. One of the things I did from time to time in the EU, perhaps a little mischievously, was to take out the list of all the bodies that did not have to come under market abuse regulations. As I have said more than once, central banks can do things that, if anybody else did them, would be called market abuse. Generally speaking, we allow central banks to do that.

There is a general provision for certain public bodies and central banks of third countries. If the EU is now a third country, why bother to state that the Treasury can make particular exemptions for member states, the ESCB, members of a federal state, the Commission, the European Investment Bank, the European Financial Stability Facility and the European Stability Mechanism? Why not just treat them as generic public bodies? This gives the EU special treatment. Yes, one might want to prepare a list, but was this just a short cut? If we were going to compact these things down for the long term and if we were going to treat the EU as a third country, why list all EU bodies but not other third-country bodies? I am not sure that I would have put them on the face of the regulations, just for the sake of it. Those are all the issues that I wish to raise at this point.