Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill

Debate between Lord Woolf and Baroness Janke

Committee stage
Monday 11th October 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, it is clear that everyone in the Room would say that it is important that our senior judges, in the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court, reflect the society in which we live if they are to be respected and seen as part of the current era. At the moment, they do not, and we are all concerned about this.

From what we hear, the amendment is acceptable and does not have the effect on diversity that raising the minimum retirement age to 75 would. It is worth noting the comments on the Ministry of Justice’s 2020 statistics:

“Although the proportion of judges that are women continues to increase gradually, women remain under-represented in judicial roles in 2020. This is particularly the case in the courts where 32% of all judges, and 26% of those in more senior roles (High Court and above) were women—compared with 47% of all judges in tribunals.”


The BAME situation is much worse:

“The proportion of judges who identify as Black, Asian and minority ethnic … has also increased … but remains lower for court appointments compared to tribunals, particularly at senior levels (4% for High Court and above, compared with 8% of all court and 12% of all tribunal judges). However, the association between age and ethnicity—with lower a proportion of BAME individuals at older ages, and more senior judges being older on average—should be borne in mind.”


I wonder whether the Minister can say whether the Government have thought of doing an impact assessment. The one at the beginning of the Bill does not address this issue at all. If there is some argument about it, it would be good to have an impact assessment that lays out the evidence we have heard from some noble and learned Lords today.

I look forward to the Minister’s response but very much hope that, by the time we get to Report, we have a body of evidence on which to make this judgment. I am sure that the noble and learned Lords here today will be able to make some of that available.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

I am sorry; could I just add one thing? The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, was sitting here wanting to address the Committee. I know without hesitation or doubt that he was going to support the view I was taking. So, I am afraid that we have to bear in mind that there are some who have a different view from that expressed by other noble and learned Lords and who would take a more relaxed view than has been indicated about the Government’s proposals.

Asylum Support (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Woolf and Baroness Janke

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, I contribute to this debate as somebody from Bristol, which is a city of sanctuary. Bristol has a proud record of having many volunteers, who welcome asylum seekers and refugees. I take an interest in many of these organisations. Visiting them recently, I was made aware of just how bad things have become for asylum seekers and refugees. Over recent years, these people depend more and more on volunteers for essential services as cuts hit local government. English language learning has been cut systematically. On the one hand, we say we would like these people to learn English, yet the service is constantly cut. Volunteers are now delivering food bags to people every week. Volunteers are providing legal aid because that has been cut too. I heard one person say last week, “I have worked in this organisation for a long time and I never really thought I would have to look at providing free nappies and raising sponsorship from the private sector to provide essential goods for these people”. So it is not just about these regulations, which I believe penalise the most vulnerable in our society, but against a background of continuous cuts to services for these people.

This country has a proud record of welcoming refugees. Many of our most successful people have come from immigrant families. We are talking about children, who have no say in what happens to them. They did not choose to be born in Syria or Eritrea. They did not choose to move. They have no voice, and we have spoken this week about democracy, accountability and the rights of the people of this country. It seems to me that the regulations we are discussing are absolutely and totally damaging to the rights of children, who are among the most vulnerable in our society.

We have heard about the effect on diet. Many of these people cannot afford to buy proper, fresh food. On the one hand, public agencies tell us we should have a healthy diet, and how we should bring up our children and avoid disease. Yet there is one rule for our children and another rule for other people’s children. We hear that they cannot afford essential living items. My colleague spoke about the ridiculous amount paid for shoes, and the fact that children grow. Their shoes may not even wear out, but they have to be replaced. We hear that the cost of travel in many of our cities is absolutely punishing, so many of these people, when they try to get advice from volunteers about their legal position, are prevented from doing so because they cannot afford to eat and to pay the travel costs.

I believe we can do better than that. I believe that some of the judgments in these regulations are arbitrary and not based on proper information. I would like the Government and all of us to feel that we could work with the agencies that provide these services and arrive at something acceptable that gives respect and allows our children, and the children of other people, to have the same protection, the same rights, the same democracy and the same civilised country that I believe we have. They do not have it at the moment and I believe they must. So I will support the Motion and I hope we get support for that.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

When the Minister replies to this debate, which I have found extraordinarily disturbing, I hope he will deal with the situation created by the High Court’s decision that has a direct bearing on the facts of this case. I would like him to ask himself whether, as a Minister of the Crown, he can say that the situation revealed in the argument before us is one which does or does not comply with the standards set in that judgment. I understand it was not appealed. If the standards do not begin to meet the standards indicated in that judgment, does he agree that this situation reveals deeply disturbing breaches of the rule of law? I am very sad to feel that that could happen in this jurisdiction.