Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Bill

Baroness Janke Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 11th October 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 1 to 3 in my name. They are probing amendments to draw out some further detail, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, for adding her name to them. I put on record my thanks to the Police Superintendents’ Association for raising its members’ concerns with us.

Recurring themes will emerge in our deliberations on this Bill—particularly questions of oversight, of the details and the actual mechanics of when and how the remedy is to be delivered and of how that will impact on members. With these amendments, we are trying to flesh that out.

I recognise that the Bill is essentially an enabling Bill, and it provides powers for schemes to do the detailed work required by the remedy. Therefore, it is one piece of a very complex picture. The Committee will particularly benefit from the expertise of some Members here today, and we hope to probe some key questions and add to the understanding of what impacted scheme members can expect.

Amendments 1 to 3 are simple probing amendments to Clause 16. Currently, the clause provides that a scheme “may” make provision to waive or reduce a scheme’s members’ liability. These amendments would change that word to “must”. The Explanatory Notes state:

“Clause 16 provides that scheme regulations for a legacy scheme may make provision whereby a liability on an individual to repay overpaid benefits … or to pay an amount in respect of underpaid contributions … is reduced or waived.”


In simpler terms, due to the changes and choices that the Bill provides for, some members may end up owing their scheme funds due to their having underpaid contributions or having been overpaid pension benefits.

Clause 16 provides that schemes have the power to waive or reduce those costs for people in certain circumstances, but the Bill does not provide any detail of what those circumstances will be. The Explanatory Notes give the following example:

“where a pensioner member has been overpaid their pension benefit and reimbursing the … scheme would cause hardship, the pension scheme could write off part of the liability.”

That is a welcome example, but it appears only in the Explanatory Notes. There is no level of detail reflecting that, or indeed any of the possible circumstances, in the Bill itself.

So, I have number of questions for the Minister. Can he provide more detail on the circumstances in which the Government would expect relief to be provided under this clause? Secondly, has the department estimated how many people may be affected in this way? Thirdly, I know the Minister will tell us that the Government’s aim is to provide the schemes with discretion to support their members, but should not every scheme at least be required to set up provisions to provide relief where necessary? Furthermore, on the question of when a waiver or reduction would be necessary, are there situations in which the Government would expect every scheme to provide relief, such as where financial hardship is caused? In this case, would it not be appropriate to include those details in the Bill?

Another question concerns Clause 24, which provides that the powers under this clause must be exercised in accordance with Treasury directions. So, the Treasury intends to provide some directions to the schemes on these issues, but outside the Bill and away from parliamentary scrutiny. What plans do the Government have to consult on the directions and the circumstances this clause may be applied to, so that the schemes reflect the actual situations experienced by members?

I know that the Minister is only too aware of this issue and, in many ways, we keep coming back to it. This is a complex Bill and we have a number of hours to look into that complexity. Clause 16 recognises that the impacts may need to be mitigated. What we are seeking is clarity on the protection and assistance that will be available. I look forward to the Minister’s explanation. I beg to move.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

I signed Amendments 1, 2 and 3 and support the reasons laid out for us today by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. It is be important that all members of the scheme understand how this system will work. As we have heard, it is a complex Bill that will affect many people, so I agree that an estimate of the number affected would be helpful. The transparency and consistency of the scheme need to be clear, and I hope the Minister will be able to provide that clarity. I also agree that it would be helpful to have the Treasury directions on the face of the Bill, rather than outside it, so that there are no misunderstandings and the people affected by this provision understand clearly how it will work for them.

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The concern that Amendments 20, 30 and 31 are all pointing out goes back to the role of the Bill as enabling legislation. The Bill establishes a wide range of regulation-making powers to allow schemes to take actions to support the discrimination remedy. Significant details are then to be written in at a later stage through not only regulations but Treasury directions. While regulations are the appropriate vehicle for much of the detail, the question is a simple one: how do we action the legislation to allow the remedy to be established while also allowing oversight and proper engagement on the next steps which are to come? How do we ensure that this time the Treasury is “listening”, as the Public Accounts Committee puts it? The Police Superintendents’ Association has raised particular concerns about how its members will be consulted on the finer details of the provisions that are made through Treasury directions. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister what commitment he can give to ongoing consultation with members, including on provisions made through directions rather than legislation, and what long-term provisions there will be for oversight of the Bill and the regulations made under it, particularly on such key issues as compensation arrangements.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

I, too, would like to speak to the amendments in my name. I do not have a great deal to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, has said other than to say that I think that this is a particularly important part of the Bill. We have heard from many people who are affected by this Bill about the need for confidence in the measures contained in it and for trust in light of what happened to lead to the need for this legislation. These amendments are to probe what the Government are planning in terms of a compensation scheme and, as has already been said, the right of appeal and members’ rights as to how their representatives may be involved in any compensation scheme. The requirement for consultation clearly goes without saying, and the Government need to do much more work on this part of the Bill to ensure that members have confidence in it.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred to promises having been made but not being honoured and the fact that many outstanding issues still await resolution. I hope that the Minister can clarify what the Government intend and that the proper process will fill members with confidence and ensure much greater trust than has been the case so far.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies, once again and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, for their valuable contributions and remarks. Given that the noble Baroness is right that this is an important part of the Bill, I wish to give a pretty full response, so I hope the Committee will indulge me as I want to go through in some detail the issues that have been raised and, of course, answer as many questions as I can.

I start by saying, just as a point of agreement, that this group of amendments seeks to ensure that members are correctly compensated for any detriment that they have suffered as a result of the discrimination that has arisen. I reassure this Committee that this is certainly a shared objective.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, put forward three amendments to Clause 21. It may be helpful if I set out the intended purpose of this clause. It confers power on scheme managers to make payments in relation to compensatable losses. This is compensation in relation to losses incurred as a result of the discrimination, the remedy provided by the Bill, or in respect of certain tax losses. The clause allows for matters that are not directly remedied by the Bill or scheme regulations to be put right.

Amendment 14 would remove the requirement that losses may be compensated only where they are of a description specified in Treasury directions. However, in the Government’s response to the consultation on remedying the discrimination, we set out that some member representatives and employers considered that there would be a need for consistent treatment across and within schemes.

The Treasury directions are one way in which we intend to ensure that such consistency is achieved. The proposed amendment would remove the central consistency that we have committed to provide and would instead require scheme managers to determine all claims in an exercise of their own discretion alone, which could lead to inconsistent and potentially unequal treatment across schemes. I am sure this Committee would agree that we do not want that. That approach would give rise to the concerns that respondents to the consultation raised. We do not consider that is a responsible or appropriate approach. The Government have committed to providing a consistent and full remedy to members and we believe that will be best achieved by the current drafting.

Amendment 15—which was spoken to eloquently by the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Ponsonby—seeks to compensate members for the closure of the legacy pension schemes and for any contingent decisions taken where a member had a period of remediable service that was under a new scheme. Paragraphs (b) and (c) of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Davies, in particular, closely relate to an ongoing judicial review challenge before the courts—which the noble Lord alluded to—and it would be inappropriate to discuss in detail. However, the effect of the amendments would be to provide the substantive remedy that the claimants are seeking in the judicial review claim. It would compensate members who were in scope of transitional protection but have not yet retired and will now be in scope of the prospective measures set out in Clauses 76 and 77 of this Bill. Providing compensation in this circumstance would therefore be contrary to the intention of those clauses that all members are to be treated equally from 1 April 2022 by accruing service in the reformed schemes, regardless of their age.

It is important to stress that the Court of Appeal found in the McCloud and Sargeant case in 2018 that the transitional protections offered under the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 amounted to unlawful discrimination. Accordingly, offering compensation to transitionally protected members would effectively undermine the Court of Appeal judgment by perpetuating this unlawful discrimination through different means. The effect would be that instead of allowing transitionally protected members to continue in service in legacy schemes, they would now be receiving the benefit of financial compensation. Non-transitionally protected members would not receive such compensation, so there would still be an unfair difference in treatment.

I will pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, to try to be helpful concerning police stakeholders. The Government really do understand the concern raised by stakeholders regarding the difference in when members can access their full pension in the 1987 and 2015 police pension schemes. I can reassure noble Lords that the Home Office is engaging with police stakeholders on these matters. However, it is the Government’s view that it will be appropriate for future pension accrual to occur in a scheme with different retirement provisions, for the reasons set out by the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, in his report. As set out in the consultation response regarding this specific issue, it is right that the Government be able to make changes when they judge it necessary to do so. The commission’s original objectives and recommendations, leading to the 2015 reforms and reform schemes, still hold. The Government therefore consider that this is not appropriate and that it is crucial to the effectiveness of the remedy that the discrimination is not perpetuated.

Returning to paragraph (a) of the amendment, this clause already makes provision for losses that arose as a result of the discrimination; that is covered by the first condition, contained in subsection (4). I hope that I can therefore reassure the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that the amendment is not needed.

The noble Lord has also put forward four amendments to Clause 23. Amendments 16 and 17 would require, rather than allow, scheme regulations to make provision under which interest is required to be calculated and paid on amounts owed to or by members under or by virtue of the Bill, and about the process by which amounts and any interest on them are to be paid; I know that this matter cropped up in debate slightly earlier. Where sums are owed to schemes or members, for example relating to contributions or benefits, Clause 23 provides powers for scheme regulations to make provision about the payment of interest on those amounts. Interest will be added to amounts payable by schemes or members. The Government consider that the addition of interest is necessary to ensure fairness between members. For example, where members owe contributions, their comparators in the scheme will have been paying the correct level of contributions throughout, so would not have had the benefit of the additional money over time. Interest will be paid on benefits or contributions owed to members to reflect that the payments relate to earlier periods of time.

Clause 23 also provides that scheme regulations may make provision about the process by which amounts due to and from schemes are to be paid. This includes matters such as providing for when amounts are to be paid, allowing for those to be paid by instalments if appropriate, netting off amounts owed by a person against amounts owed to a person, and conferring rights of appeal against a decision taken under the regulations. The amendments would require scheme regulations to make such provision. However, the Government do not consider that imposing a duty on schemes to make such regulations would be appropriate. Doing so could lead to vexatious claims that schemes have not made regulations to deal with obscure situations that could arise. Rather, the Government consider that granting schemes a broad power, exercisable in accordance with Treasury directions, is the right approach to ensure that schemes can make all the necessary and appropriate provision in scheme regulations, while providing sufficient flexibility to account for the differences in the public service pension schemes that I referred to earlier.

The noble Lord’s third amendment, Amendment 18, would remove provision for schemes to make a payment only on the making of an application. This provision is there for the benefit of members: for example, members may not wish to receive amounts that they are owed. This could arise if they are an active or deferred member and intend to choose reformed scheme benefits upon retirement in order to avoid double corrections, as envisaged by Clause 16(8).

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[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, this group deals with a straightforward issue, which should not need much explanation, but should be at the heart of our deliberations on this Bill. I raised it at Second Reading and it was also raised powerfully by the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, with whom I share this group. I will speak to her amendment within the group.

In recommendations made in 2011, predating the pensions reforms that gave rise to the discrimination that the Bill seeks to address, the Public Accounts Committee recommended that

“HM Treasury should work with employers and pension schemes to ensure that clear and relevant information is provided to employees on the value of their pensions.”

In June this year, a decade later, the PAC reported that it was “disappointed” by the “limited progress” that had been made and that

“more needs to be done to improve employees’ understanding.”

The crucial relevance to the Bill today is captured—one could almost say understatedly—by the PAC when it says:

“The problem has been exacerbated with further complexities being introduced as a result of government’s response to the McCloud judgment.”


I do not need to put too fine a point on how complex the remedy and the legislation before us today are. We are the people attempting to scrutinise it, and we are only too aware of these complexities. Imagine the impact of this sudden deluge of remedies, liabilities, regulations, protections and decisions on those of our public service workers who are building up their pension in their career, perhaps as a teacher, a firefighter or a civil servant. It must be an utmost priority that scheme members are given accessible, timely, easy-to-understand and easy-to-access information to help them to understand what has happened and what it means for them.

Clause 26 makes provision for remediable service statements—essentially, annual benefits statements for members that would include information on the benefits available under the legacy scheme, information on the impact that making certain choices under the Bill would have on those benefits and a description of how and when a choice can be made. This is the primary mechanism in the Bill for providing information to members on how the remedy could have an impact on them.

Amendments 21 to 23 in my name would require the information in those statements to be provided in “clear and accessible language”. Their aim is to probe whether the content included in the statements will be plain-language, practical descriptions of what these options mean for the value of a person’s pension, or whether members will find themselves faced with a complex financial statement that is too difficult to use.

Amendment 25 raises a specific concern around tax returns: ensuring that members have what they need to fill out a self-assessment tax return. For example, members of affected schemes will have to work out tax relief on contributions, as well as their annual allowance and other values. Will a remediable service statement include the necessary information to allow a member to navigate the tax impacts of the changes to their pension status? If not, will financial advice be available to ensure that they can accurately fill out a self-assessment statement, taking the remedy into account?

Finally, Amendment 24 in my name and Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, deal with the key to this issue: what guidance, help or services the Government plan to provide to help impacted members to understand what this means for them, and how members will be signposted to them. If a person has no idea what their statement means, how their pension has been affected and when they are likely to be required to make a decision, who do they call? Where do they go for practical advice? I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. There is a huge challenge here for the Government. When you think of how many individuals with individual futures will be affected by this Bill, it is something that really needs deep thought in terms of what kinds of guidance and support will be provided, how they will be resourced and how the Government will signpost them.

It does not sound too challenging to say that members get to retirement then make whichever choice is best for them, but actually lots of complicated decisions requiring support and high levels of knowledge need to be taken. For example, in some cases, members may have built up rights that fall due at different ages. If there is no single retirement age, when do they have to make their choice? In some cases, a higher pension may be owed at the time under one set of rules but, as retirement continues, it may turn out that the other set of rules would have given a bigger total pension. Again, help needs to be given.

The Government have already accepted that people with complex tax issues can have financial advice, but what about the millions of public sector workers who will have to make these choices? On financial planning, we encourage people to make plans for their pensions and explore how they are going to live post retirement, but how easy will it be to make a proper plan with the new system being put in place? For example, will the pensions dashboard provide the information they need?

It is an enormous task for schemes to unpick, administer and communicate. Members are going to need a lot of help to understand what is happening, so it would be very helpful to know what the Government intend to provide in the way of support systems to enable members to make the best choices, and to trustees of the pension schemes as well. We welcome how this is to be resourced and I hope that we will have a clear and detailed statement on supporting elements for the implementation of the scheme. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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Moved by

[Baroness Janke]

32: After Clause 90, insert the following new Clause—
“Review of the impact of this Act on fairness
(1) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a review of the impact of this Act on fairness to members in receipt of pensions to which this Part applies.(2) The review under subsection (1) must make reference to the impact of the provisions on women in particular.(3) The review under subsection (1) must make recommendations as to whether further legislation should be brought forward by the Government to try and close the public service pensions gap between men and women.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the Government to report on the impact of this Part on fairness, especially with regards to women.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment calls for a review of the fairness and just treatment of some of the issues that have already been raised, particularly with regard to disbenefits to members of current schemes. We have heard of those today; the pensions trap was already described in detail by the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Ponsonby. Women police officers are also being unfairly treated in the Bill, in that those who have taken time off for caring responsibilities can make up the time they had lost under the police pension scheme, but under the new scheme, which is based on age, they have to work longer. That is an example of some of the issues caused by the Bill that may not be addressed by some of the amendments we have put forward.

Gender in pensions is not a new issue. The gender pension gap is a serious matter; the average pension pot for a woman aged 65 is one-fifth of that for a 65 year-old man. Women receive £29,000 less state pension than men, over 20 years. This deficit is set to continue, closing by only 3% by 2060. This amendment seeks to highlight the importance of this issue and the need for urgent measures to address it, so we are raising specific disbenefits in the new scheme, particularly in relation to women and the gender pension gap. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on this matter, but I acknowledge its importance and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, for raising it. The amendment touches on a number of key issues that we have debated today: the long-term oversight of the Bill and its impact; fairness, particularly the consequences for women and part-time workers; and the need for decent, accessible information for workers on the value of their pensions. We have seen what happens when the effects of pensions legislation are not fully taken into account or monitored. It results in the Bill in front of us and all the related complex consequences we see here today.

On the gender pension gap, during the course of today, we raised specific concerns about the different impact some changes will have on women, who are more likely to have been part-time workers or to have taken time out of their careers for caring responsibilities, leaving them with interrupted contributions and interrupted years of service. The noble Baroness made this point all too clearly. What is particularly shocking about the gender pension gap is how little it is commonly talked about and recognised. I hope that this Committee stage will slightly raise the profile of the issue, but I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, as well as my noble friend Lady Drake and others, has consistently raised it across the House and brought it to the Government’s attention at every opportunity.

The cross-party Women and Work All-Party Group has called on the Government to “take urgent action” to close the gap which, as it points out, has persistently

“remained at about 40% for the last five years”.

The recommendations of the all-party group include that:

“The Government should publish guidance directed at women on how to adequately prepare for retirement and encourage employers to calculate their gender pension contributions gap in order to compare this to their gender pay gap data.”


There is cross-party understanding of this issue and cross-party support for it has been raised in other forums. What is needed to tackle it adequately is political will. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

This was a much shorter debate. I begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for the points they made and for raising this important matter. As I touched on earlier in debate, of course I agree that fairness and equal treatment lie at the heart of the Bill—that is, fairness between lower and higher earners and fairness for the taxpayer—as well as the future sustainability and affordability of public service pensions.

Let me go further. The Government agree with the importance of assessing the impact of the Bill on members of the public service pension schemes with protected characteristics, including—importantly—women. This is why the Government sought responses to the consultation on equalities impacts and conducted a full equalities impact assessment of the Bill, which was published alongside its introduction. In addition, when making the necessary changes to their scheme rules to deliver remedy, schemes will carry out any appropriate analysis of equality impacts for their specific schemes alongside consultations on these changes, in compliance with the public sector equality duty contained in Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010.

The Government’s equalities analysis highlights a number of important features of this Bill, which aims to ensure equal treatment between men and women. I note the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. For example, with regard to the main public service schemes, requiring members in scope of remedy to choose their benefits long before retirement could disadvantage women, who may be more likely to take a career break or work part time between implementation of the remedy and their retirement. By allowing this choice to be made at retirement, the deferred choice underpin avoids additional complexity for these groups by allowing them to make their decision in full knowledge of how part-time work or career breaks have affected their earnings and pension accrual. Similarly, by making remedy available to individuals who were in service on or before 31 March 2012 but subsequently left and rejoined, provided that their break in service was less than five years, the Bill ensures parity for groups that may have been more likely to take career breaks—for example, to care for young children or elderly relatives.

The Bill also provides that, from 1 April 2022, all public service workers who remain in service will do so as members of the reformed schemes, which provide career average—so-called CARE—benefits. CARE schemes offer fairer outcomes to those who experience lower salary progression over the course of their careers. As such, statistically, a higher proportion of women and those with other protected characteristics are likely to be better off under CARE schemes, which are broadly more beneficial for lower and some middle earners. The Bill also provides that men and women in the same scheme and of the same date of birth will have the same scheme normal pension age—NPA—under their particular reformed scheme design, and the same NPA for their legacy scheme benefits.

More broadly, the Government recognise the importance of public service pensions in addressing the pensions gap in society between men and women. As women make up roughly 65% of active public service pension scheme members, the provision of generous defined benefit public service pensions actively serves to reduce that gap. Nevertheless, the Government recognise that, in the public sector, differences remain in average annual pension payments and accrued pensions; this was alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Janke. However, these reflect past differences in earnings over members’ careers rather than differences in their pension terms.

Therefore, the best way to combat differences in pensions accrual is to tackle the gender pay gap and promote equal opportunities for career progression, regardless of sex or other protected characteristics. The Government are taking active measures on both, including through mandatory gender pay gap reporting. As a result, the gender pay gap continues to be lower in the public sector than the private sector; I have some statistics that I could give to the Committee. As already mentioned, these differences should reduce over time as a result of the move to a CARE benefit design, which all members will accrue from 2022 and which will lead to fairer outcomes for those with lower pay progression.

Given the extensive analysis that has already been conducted and published, as well as the further analysis that schemes will carry out, the Government do not think that a further review is required at this stage. I understand the sentiments behind the amendment but we do not agree that it is necessary. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his response and take his assurances very seriously. Again, this is perhaps something we need to reflect on as it affects society as a whole. I believe we should use every occasion we can to address these fundamental unfairnesses. Having said that, I am sure we will reflect on this, but at this point I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 32 withdrawn.

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The MoJ recognised the impact on diversity in its response to the consultation on this issue, and has committed to improving diversity by supporting the Judicial Diversity Forum. I sat on that forum and do not for one moment doubt the commitment of its members, but its success has been limited despite the commitment and determination of all those involved. Even if it improves its success rate and manages to attract and support far more applicants from non-traditional backgrounds, they can be appointed only to a vacant post. Raising the mandatory retirement age of judges to 75 is bound to restrict the number of vacant posts, which is why I support the amendment.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, it is clear that everyone in the Room would say that it is important that our senior judges, in the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court, reflect the society in which we live if they are to be respected and seen as part of the current era. At the moment, they do not, and we are all concerned about this.

From what we hear, the amendment is acceptable and does not have the effect on diversity that raising the minimum retirement age to 75 would. It is worth noting the comments on the Ministry of Justice’s 2020 statistics:

“Although the proportion of judges that are women continues to increase gradually, women remain under-represented in judicial roles in 2020. This is particularly the case in the courts where 32% of all judges, and 26% of those in more senior roles (High Court and above) were women—compared with 47% of all judges in tribunals.”


The BAME situation is much worse:

“The proportion of judges who identify as Black, Asian and minority ethnic … has also increased … but remains lower for court appointments compared to tribunals, particularly at senior levels (4% for High Court and above, compared with 8% of all court and 12% of all tribunal judges). However, the association between age and ethnicity—with lower a proportion of BAME individuals at older ages, and more senior judges being older on average—should be borne in mind.”


I wonder whether the Minister can say whether the Government have thought of doing an impact assessment. The one at the beginning of the Bill does not address this issue at all. If there is some argument about it, it would be good to have an impact assessment that lays out the evidence we have heard from some noble and learned Lords today.

I look forward to the Minister’s response but very much hope that, by the time we get to Report, we have a body of evidence on which to make this judgment. I am sure that the noble and learned Lords here today will be able to make some of that available.

[Lord Woolf (CB)]

I am sorry; could I just add one thing? The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, was sitting here wanting to address the Committee. I know without hesitation or doubt that he was going to support the view I was taking. So, I am afraid that we have to bear in mind that there are some who have a different view from that expressed by other noble and learned Lords and who would take a more relaxed view than has been indicated about the Government’s proposals.