Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 29th August 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, there is a civil war in Syria. So far, 100,000 people have been killed and 2 million people are refugees outside Syria. The society and economy of Syria are in the process of being destroyed, which requires the international community to try to resolve the situation.

[Lord Winston]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. The whole House has great respect for him but I feel that he has rather missed the mood of the Chamber today. He says that 100,000 people have been killed already. Can he give us the Government’s estimate of how many more people might be killed if we engage in a strike against Syria?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, if we are engaged in a strike on Syria it will be limited and very deliberately targeted, and not intended to cause any significant number of casualties. We are attempting to deter further chemical attacks. We are also attempting to defend the principle of international law. Let me say to those who say that it does not matter how you are killed, by whatever weapons, there are differences. The international community and international law have outlawed weapons of mass destruction. Chemical weapons have been illegal internationally since 1925. That is a red line and if we do not support the principle that using chemical weapons either against your own people or against members of another state is different, we are simply allowing that major principle of international law to decay. That is the principle with which we are engaged. At the same time, we and others, including the Arab League, the World Muslim Council, the European Union, and many others are working to try to resolve the situation and the conflict in Syria.

I was amazed to hear from a number of people the question: why do we not pay more attention to the diplomatic channel? Why has the Geneva II conference not yet taken place? We had hoped that the second Geneva conference would take place this July, and the Russians did their best to delay it. We hoped then that it would take place in September; we now hope that it may take place in November. The level of diplomatic activity in which Her Majesty’s Government have been engaged in the past few months has been enormous. I was in the Foreign Office yesterday reading transcripts of conversations with heads of government, foreign secretaries and others from 20 or more different Governments, ranging from Japan, to Russia, to Australia and to the United Arab Emirates. We are actively working on the diplomatic track. Unfortunately, we have not found much support from our colleagues in Russia or very much support from the Chinese, although the Chinese Government have condemned officially the use of chemical weapons. The diplomatic track is our preferred option, and we are working on it. The use of force is a last resort to be used only if other methods break down.

Houses of Parliament: Access during Demonstrations

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 9th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, sheer pressure of numbers on occasion creates difficulties for access to this House. I am sure that the noble Lord, like me, has taken part in many public demonstrations in the past, although it is possible that he was not with me on the demonstration against the Iraq war in which some 2 million of us attempted to walk past Parliament and get as far as Hyde Park. I have to say that the Liberal Democrat contingent never managed to get to Hyde Park because there were so many people there. It is a very important part of our democratic life that we maintain the right to protest. Indeed, I am sure that noble Lords on the coalition Benches will know the coalition agreement off by heart. Among other things, it states:

“We will restore rights to non-violent protest”,

and that is what we are doing.

[Lord Winston]

My Lords, some Members of the House may find the Minister’s reply slightly less than satisfactory. Is he aware that, in getting to Parliament by road last week, many Members were unnecessarily diverted for an extra hour when access to the House would have been quite easy and completely safe, and neither the demonstrations nor our ability to vote in the proceedings of Parliament would have been disrupted? Perhaps a little more understanding from the police is needed, as well as sometimes politeness, to help us on our way in to the House.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I was not aware of that. Again, that will be fed back as well as we can. We have been trying to send noble Lords information as far in advance as possible if it is likely that Carriage Gates are to be blocked and to advise them whether there will be access in and out through Black Rod’s Garden Entrance or whether they would do better to attempt to come over Lambeth Bridge, for example, than Westminster Bridge. We are doing our best in these circumstances.

Our police do very well to maintain access to this House. Nevertheless, it is part of the principle of our democratic life that we should invite people in as often as possible. This is supposed to be an open democracy and an open society. We ask the police to do a difficult job in maintaining that balance.