Baroness Knight of Collingtree
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that access to the Houses of Parliament is maintained during the holding of demonstrations.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The policing of demonstrations in central London is an operational matter for the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who has to balance the right to peaceful protest with the rights of wider communities. Part of that balance includes ensuring that Members of this House and the other place, their staff and the public who wish to lobby their MPs are able to get in and out of Parliament in order to carry out their democratic functions in public life.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, does my noble friend recall that the very first action of every Parliament every year is to pass an order in Parliament directing the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to ensure access for all Members of Parliament to Parliament and that,
“no obstruction shall be permitted to hinder the passage of the Lords or Members”,
to cite Erskine May? Is my noble friend aware that during a recent demo, a number of Peers—and, for all I know, MPs—were denied entry by the police for several hours? Is it not a breach of the constitution that Members of Parliament should be prevented from speaking or voting in these Houses?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we could spend a long time discussing the British constitution. I remind the House that the sessional order that has been agreed by this House since the 18th century does not, in effect, apply beyond the boundaries of the Palace of Westminster and, in some ways, it may indeed arouse unreasonable expectations. There have been occasions when people have been unable to access the Houses of Parliament by car during recent demonstrations. There was one occasion, I am informed, when a number of additional police from outer boroughs who were reinforcing our local policemen did not recognise the parliamentary passes of Members of either House. That has now been corrected. The police have to balance the democratic right to protest with maintaining access to Parliament. On the whole, I think that all around the House we would accept that the police maintain that balance very well.
Lord Richard
My Lords, when talking about the sessional order, the Minister said that it aroused “unreasonable expectations”. Is he really saying that it is an unreasonable expectation that Members of Parliament and Peers should get to this House?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I apologise. I should perhaps have said “unrealistic expectations”. There are circumstances in which it may be difficult to maintain access by car. We cherish the right to demonstrate. It is part of an open society. We would not like to have the same circumstances for maintaining order around this House as the Chinese Government maintain on occasion in Tiananmen Square. These are delicate issues. We ask the police to maintain order and to maintain access. As Members will know, when there are large demonstrations, the authorities provide us with information about which entrances will be kept open and where there may be difficulty, and I am sure that Members of this House follow their orders as well as they can.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, what is the basis for the noble Lord’s statement that the sessional order applies only as far as the boundaries of the building? That is an absurd statement. It is not getting into the building once you are at the boundary; it is getting to the boundary. What is the basis for that extremely dangerous statement?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the sessional order is a very traditional thing. I am told that the House of Commons no longer produces a sessional order. We negotiate with the Metropolitan Police Authority on how best to maintain access to the House from the surrounding streets. The statement that,
“during the Session of Parliament … no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of the Lords to and from this House”,
is a statement of intent. The police do their best in the circumstances, and the number of occasions on which it has not been possible to enter this House by car or on foot has been very limited, I am assured.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, notwithstanding that, does the Minister understand that the demonstration before last I was refused access from Westminster Bridge into Parliament Square on the grounds that the policemen had been told that only MPs were allowed access? Despite showing my pass, they refused utterly to accept that the House of Lords is part of Parliament. [Laughter.] It was quite funny, but it is quite serious. It took 20 minutes to get the policeman to phone a superior officer to let me through. The sessional order quite specifically refers to the House of Lords. Will the Minister draw the attention of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to this so that all officers are properly briefed?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Yeoman Usher is in his place. I am sure he has taken that fully on board and that it will be immediately communicated to the police.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, my noble friend suggested that we have to balance the right of access to this House and the House of Commons with the right to demonstrate. In what conceivable way does access by Members of Parliament and Peers to their respective Houses interfere in any way with the right to demonstrate?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, sheer pressure of numbers on occasion creates difficulties for access to this House. I am sure that the noble Lord, like me, has taken part in many public demonstrations in the past, although it is possible that he was not with me on the demonstration against the Iraq war in which some 2 million of us attempted to walk past Parliament and get as far as Hyde Park. I have to say that the Liberal Democrat contingent never managed to get to Hyde Park because there were so many people there. It is a very important part of our democratic life that we maintain the right to protest. Indeed, I am sure that noble Lords on the coalition Benches will know the coalition agreement off by heart. Among other things, it states:
“We will restore rights to non-violent protest”,
and that is what we are doing.
Lord Winston
My Lords, some Members of the House may find the Minister’s reply slightly less than satisfactory. Is he aware that, in getting to Parliament by road last week, many Members were unnecessarily diverted for an extra hour when access to the House would have been quite easy and completely safe, and neither the demonstrations nor our ability to vote in the proceedings of Parliament would have been disrupted? Perhaps a little more understanding from the police is needed, as well as sometimes politeness, to help us on our way in to the House.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I was not aware of that. Again, that will be fed back as well as we can. We have been trying to send noble Lords information as far in advance as possible if it is likely that Carriage Gates are to be blocked and to advise them whether there will be access in and out through Black Rod’s Garden Entrance or whether they would do better to attempt to come over Lambeth Bridge, for example, than Westminster Bridge. We are doing our best in these circumstances.
Our police do very well to maintain access to this House. Nevertheless, it is part of the principle of our democratic life that we should invite people in as often as possible. This is supposed to be an open democracy and an open society. We ask the police to do a difficult job in maintaining that balance.