NHS: Access to Treatments

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point. It is not just in my department; across government a number of different departments are looking at the impact of the cost of living crisis and higher energy bills. Clearly the NHS, but also individual practitioners and centres within the NHS, will be affected by rising costs. Discussions are going on at the moment. One of the things that my right honourable friend the incoming Secretary of State has said is that she is very clear on the priorities—ABCDD: ambulances, backlog, care, dentists and doctors—but also understands the energy crisis.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister’s Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, does not seem to address the question. What we are seeing, of course, is a reduction in the number of doctors, whether from retirement and not being replaced or for whatever reason, or from a lack of training. Are the Government intending to reduce the number of doctors, as they have been doing, and how do they intend to substitute for proper medical care by a doctor, which is what patients want to see?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord raised a number of different points, which I will try to respond to. One issue is that, although we are recruiting more doctors, at the same time clearly there are doctors who are looking to leave. There is a demographic of people reaching a certain age, and one of the issues is pensions and whether they hit the limit. Those discussions are going on. There are also lots of discussions going on about how we can improve retention of those staff who feel overworked and have had enough.

In addition, at certain levels, for example primary care, it does not always have to be a doctor that the patient sees. It could be a practice nurse or a physiotherapist. There is also more emphasis on the Pharmacy First programme, whereby people can get advice from pharmacies, unless they actually need to see a doctor.

Cannabis: Medicinal Use

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question and note his concerns. However, I think we should look at this in two ways: there is medicinal cannabis and there is recreational cannabis, and we must be quite clear on that. Some people clearly want to liberalise both. I cannot comment on my own particular views because I am conflicted on this, but what is really important here is that we take a cautious approach and look at the particular issue of medicinal cannabis. The MHRA is ready to regulate medicinal cannabis; it just needs companies to come forward and spend money on the trials.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the Science and Technology Select Committee, which I had the honour to chair some 15 or 18 years ago, looked at the medicinal uses of cannabis. One of the things we clearly showed was that the statement we just heard is not true; in fact, there was no evidence then that the medicinal use of cannabis led to addiction in patients. Indeed, patients who were having medicinal cannabis were trying very hard not to become high and trying to use the doses in very limited amounts so that they could cure their symptoms.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very important point: whatever our personal views, we must distinguish between recreational and medicinal uses of cannabis. We know from observations and many stories that many people believe that they benefit from medicinal cannabis. We know that there is a barrier because companies have not come forward to have it regulated or go through the clinical trials, but we are trying to work with those companies and encourage them to come forward. In fact, we have also found some NIHR research money available to help with those trials. My request to the industry is: “You make a lot of money out of this—please come forward and go through those trials with the MHRA”.

General Practitioners: Shortage

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question, but I should explain to him that I have been warned for exceeding my powers, as it were, in the past. I think setting up a Select Committee is a bit beyond my powers. The noble Lord and I, and many noble Lords across the House, including previous Health Ministers of all parties, have had this conversation, and we know that the old-fashioned model of a five to 10-minute appointment with your GP, only to be referred elsewhere and into secondary care, is broken in many ways. We need a much more modern model. We have seen primary care take on some of the functions of secondary care, but we have also seen, at the GP level, that the GP does not have to do everything, and that there are other workers such as nurses, physio- therapists and pharmacists who can do more of what the GP has done in the past.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the figures show that more than half of GPs are considering retirement or are retiring before the age of 60. As the noble Lord has pointed out, there are lots of reasons for this, but he has not told us what he is doing about them. What is he doing constructively to change the attitudes and experience of GPs, which lead to this disillusionment among men who are at the highest point of their career, when they are the most useful to patients in primary care?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that the Government are doing lots of things. Not only are we listening but we are looking at potential solutions and discussing them with the relevant bodies. For example, one of the pressures mentioned was the impact of the number of phone calls. There has been investment in handling them and getting them redirected appropriately, and GP practices have been offered money for that. The other issue is pensions: some GPs are worried about taking a hit on their pension if they come back to service. There are discussions about whether they are really worse off and how we can retain staff. Also, having other staff at the GP level who can take on some of those functions that GPs do not necessarily need to do could ease their workload. The administrative burden has added to this, but the digitisation of services should solve a lot of those problems.

Coronavirus: New Cases

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

One of the things we do in the Department of Health and Social Care is to have regular meetings with our counterparts in the devolved Administrations—all the Ministers do. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, shakes his head, but I can tell him that we regularly have meetings with the devolved Administrations. I commit to go back to the department and see who is next due to have a meeting with their devolved counterparts, and ask whether we can put Covid on the agenda.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that his dismissal of hindsight is one of the most useless ways of looking at this? Surely with continuing infection like this, hindsight is really important, and we should be looking all the time to see how we can change our practice.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I was making the point that there is the benefit of hindsight but also the fallacy of hindsight. The benefit is that we learn from mistakes we made in the past. We learn from previous actions what worked and did not work, particularly in a local context. Some of my friends in other countries tell me that what we did in England may not necessarily have worked in their country, and vice versa. There is also the fallacy of hindsight, when people say that in the same situation, 18 months or two years ago, they would have done something completely different with the information we had then. That is what is known in social sciences as the fallacy of hindsight.

Paramedic Services

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be aware that there are a number of things going on with the 10-point plan. Maybe I will go through some of the points now. We are supporting 999 and 111 services, making sure that the appropriate person answers the call; supporting primary care and community health services to manage those services; making more use of urgent treatment centres; and providing more support for children and young people. Sometimes people ring 999 but do not need emergency treatment and they can be redirected to another clinician, who can speak to them and that takes pressure off. We are recruiting more staff and looking at more prevention and looking at different rules which prevent the appropriate workflow through the system.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, some months ago, as my wife lay dying in my arms, I phoned the 999 service. The man answering the call asked me a litany of questions and asked me to count her number of heartbeats per minute. That waste of time is critical; with a cardiac arrest you have only a few seconds. I had to interrupt the cardiac massage that I was giving my wife until the emergency services arrived, but of course they had not been called yet. When eventually the man backed down, it was obvious that he had not been trained to ask the right questions. Can the Minister assure the House that there is proper training for people who answer these calls at these critical times, when they are dealing with someone who may recognise that their close relative is dying, and that the latter can hear what they are saying on the telephone? It is highly dangerous and that makes it very difficult. The last thing we hear as we die is usually the voice of someone who is with us.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for sharing that very personal story. Clearly, there are too many incidents of this kind. One of the issues that we have to be very careful about as we look to recruit more numbers is to look at the system and at how to divert the less urgent calls. Probably in that case the person was trained to ask particular questions to ascertain how serious or urgent it was but, clearly, that was inappropriate. I will take that case back to the department and see whether I can get some answers.

Personal Protective Equipment: Waste

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 14th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that we are paying storage costs, and over the last few months there has been a reduction in storage and the Government have been looking at more cost-effective ways. However, the overall strategy—and why we have two lead waste providers looking at the issue—is to ask how we can sell, donate, repurpose or recycle wherever we can. For equipment where complex chains of polymers cannot be broken down—chemists would understand this better—we are looking at how we can dispose of it in the most environmentally friendly way.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is not just a question of a knee-jerk response at the very last minute of a new pandemic? Various committees, including the Science and Technology Select Committee, had pointed out that a pandemic was almost inevitable and that exactly such preparations were needed some years before it actually occurred.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. If we think back to swine flu in 2009 and the pandemic preparedness for that, there were such suggestions at the time and in subsequent years—we should not blame the particular party that was in power at the time—and the Government were urged to buy more and more equipment. The fact is that, had we bought it, it would have been at lower prices, and the cumulative cost of storage over the years would not have been as much as we spent recently.

Long Covid

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Monday 23rd May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for making us aware of that. I know that there has been extensive stakeholder engagement to understand what the particular issues are. I am happy to commit to a meeting with the noble Baroness.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister be kind enough to let the House know through which body the funding for this research is being undertaken? Is it through UKRI or some other body? How is it split up between different funding bodies? What has been achieved so far with the research that has been done?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The NHS is working with the wider scientific community to better understand both Covid-19 and its long-term health impacts. The £50 million in research is to understand, first, the actual condition—and, as I said earlier, it is not necessarily a medical condition—and how we map and treat it. In addition, we have had 22 research studies to examine the cause of long Covid, to diagnose the condition and to optimise the design of healthcare systems. A lot of this has been done by the National Institute for Health and Care Research, which continues to welcome applications for further research.

Government Contracts: Randox Laboratories

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Monday 21st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for reminding us of the importance of all the companies that supplied equipment or scaled up at pace or were able to meet the initial requirements. It was a time of panic; thousands were dying, and we did not have equipment. This was a time before the vaccine. The department and its officials tried to speak to as many people as possible around the world to find out what was available, what could be done and what the timescales were. Clearly, as the noble Lord said, Randox played an important role in meeting the testing requirements initially.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister suggests that the Government were panicking. Does he agree that panic in a laboratory or when one is dealing with tests of this kind is not satisfactory? Is not one of the problems that it is clear that Randox’s methods were not satisfactory and would not stand up to absolutely accurate testing? Is it not the case that the Government still cannot tell us what percentage of its PCR tests were inaccurate or in some ways contaminated?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I used the word panic because I think everyone was panicking. People just did not understand what was going on. They did not understand the pace of coronavirus; they did not even understand the disease itself and the transmission of it. I was reading over the weekend a couple of books on the history of the virus so far, where it broke out and what people thought it was originally, and some of the reassessments of historical epidemiology. Clearly, we needed testing performance. Randox was the only company at that time, in March 2020, that was able to provide that capacity at the scale needed. As I said earlier, where we identified problems, we made Randox aware of them and it supplied new kit.

Medical Abortion Pills

Debate between Lord Winston and Lord Kamall

Thursday 10th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I do not think that is in question. There is no doubt that women should have access to abortion services and to the right advice, but as the noble Baroness who spoke earlier indicated, there are some concerns and risks. We have to consider all the factors. Of course, it would be wonderful for some people if it was made easier and was available online; others say you must be prepared for the risks. Whatever happens, if something goes wrong, I am sure that the noble Baroness and others would be back here questioning why we did what we did.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a fellow of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and of the Academy of Medical Sciences. Have the Government considered the evidence from Imperial College London—indeed, from my own laboratory—showing that most human embryos are born with abnormalities which are potentially lethal, and they usually die? They are then aborted by the same process which this Bill causes, only at a later stage of pregnancy. This method of natural abortion, which occurs all the time, is mostly without symptoms to the woman: they do not even know that they have lost an embryo. It is safe and does not cause the medical complications which invariably happen with a late abortion, which a woman is then committed to. What are the Government going to do about this, firmly, to make it avoidable in future?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for informing me about that—it is something I have learned today. I will take it back and consider what he has said. To return to the Question, when we made this measure it was clear that it was supposed to be temporary. Will have consulted and will look at the consultation and decide what we will do. If we do go back to what it was like before, we will make sure there is a sufficient period to ensure there is no cliff edge.