House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Lord Winston Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 2nd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord Newby, who said almost everything I was about to say in the next group, but it is no less welcome for that. I just want to pick up the point about us all voting for each other. I was here in 1999, and it was a very unpleasant experience to have people constantly sidling up to you, who had never spoken to you before, and urging you to vote for them because they were such a good chap, to use a phrase. I really hope that we do not go back to that, but let us get on to the next group and we will talk more.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I must declare a conflict of interest in this respect, because I am not quite certain—I have rather forgotten—but I think my 85th birthday is next weekend. I have to say that I am still employed; I am still producing experimental work, which is being published; I am still teaching; I am still training post-doctoral students and younger students; and I am still talking to children’s schools. The fact is that we are discussing a biological problem, which your Lordships seem to have neglected. If we had a rule that we only had people of a certain height in this Chamber and that, let us say, less than 5 foot 10 would not be acceptable, we would actually forget the Gaussian curve of normality and the statistics.

The fact of the matter is that, if we look historically, in the last 20 or 30 years of this House of Lords there were many people in this Chamber who were actually demented in their 60s, and far more in their 70s and 80s who were actually clearly not suitable mentally to be taking judgment on legal issues and issues of social care. The fact of the matter remains that medicine is changing, and there is no doubt, if we actually get successful medicines in future, as we in the Labour Party hope—we will have to see about that, of course—that we will see ages increase and people being mentally competent for longer. I suggest that an arbitrary rule at any age is probably inappropriate biologically, and we should find a more sensible way of considering how we might encourage people to retire when they are no longer competent to be Members of this House.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I cannot resist responding to that, because I agree with it. One of the problems we have is that the Whips do not have sufficient power to tap people on the shoulder and tell them it is really time, whatever age they are, if they are infirm. From that point of view, I agree: it is a matter not of age but of capability, and I think participation is the way to go to address that.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Lord Winston Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 2nd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is nothing if not consistent on this issue. We voted together on the seven options that your Lordships’ House was presented with in February 2003 following the royal commission. The noble Lord will recall that, in the Commons, none of the options got a majority and the whole thing failed.

If I am to be critical of what happened with the original proposals put forward by the Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, the royal commission and the various proposals put forward since, including Mr Clegg’s Bill, the proponents of an elected House—of which I am one—need to do the work on the powers and relationship. You cannot get away with simply saying, “We should have an elected House”. I absolutely agree with this, but my noble friend is right that, to make it work, you would have to constrain the current powers of the Lords to make the relationship work effectively.

You would also have to tackle secondary legislation. You could not leave an elected second Chamber with a veto power—which we have used six or seven times in our whole history—particularly if it was elected under proportional representation. Clearly, a second Chamber elected under proportional representation is bound to claim greater legitimacy in the end than the Commons; the claim would always be that we represent the voters much more accurately than a first past the post system.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, may not realise this, but I am very sympathetic to what he seeks to do. But, for goodness’ sake, let us do the work on what the relationship between two elected Houses should be.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Does the noble Lord agree that this House prides itself on being a Chamber that gives excellent views and expertise? In general, people of expertise tend not to stand for election. They tend to be chosen, for whatever reason. Is that not rather relevant to how this Chamber is supposed to work? Maybe we ought to have more experts in the House of Lords and fewer politicians.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend, whom I respect greatly and have worked with over many years, underestimates the calibre of many Members of Parliament. I take his point that many of the people who come forward in relation to an appointed House might not put their names forward for an elected second Chamber. But at the end of the day, as the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, said, it is very hard to justify a second Chamber of Parliament that does not have electoral legitimacy. My plea is that we make sure that that legitimacy is produced in a way that does not bring us to conflict.

Deep Sea Mining in International Waters

Lord Winston Excerpts

Monday 30th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I will not repeat my answer about the BBNJ. I was at the UN General Assembly where we signed our commitment to ratify it. The noble Baroness has made a really important point, because in my consultation on the Africa approach we have been absolutely clear about how we work in partnership with African countries on rare earth minerals and other minerals that we need for greening our economy. We are absolutely committed to working with them in a partnership that delivers processing in those countries, so that the people of those countries benefit from the jobs and income, and we ensure a brighter, greener future for the globe.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell me whether the Government feel that, given the lack of understanding of the risks of deep sea mining, there is a better case for promoting public engagement with this issue scientifically?

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

That is exactly what our negotiations next week will be about. The precautionary principle is at the heart of the Government’s approach to deep sea mining. What we have in place is not a ban, which would be inconsistent with UNCLOS. Once the preconditions are met, we will consider proper exploitation licences on their merit. The important thing is that we need to better understand the implications. We need to protect our planet, and that is what we will continue to do. The minerals that we need to green our economy are not simply at the bottom of the sea. We need to work in partnership with Africa, which is a huge resource.

Israel: Arab Israeli and Jewish Israeli Communities

Lord Winston Excerpts

Monday 16th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I cannot give the noble Lord a direct answer because I am not sure in which direction his question is going, but I assure him that the FCDO regularly audits its contributions, not least to ensure that the UK taxpayer has value for money. If there are any reports that raise concerns about how money might be being used not in accordance with the original grant then of course we will investigate them. If the noble Lord has information that I am not aware of, perhaps he can let me have it later.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interests: I am a supporter and member of an organisation called Omdim Beyachad—Standing Together—and, over the years, I have been responsible for the teaching and supervision of many PhD students from Gaza, Israel and the neighbouring Arab countries. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on her excellent Question and the Minister on his wonderful answers, which are really helpful. The point is this: creating an important infrastructure for education is important now if we are to achieve some kind of proper peaceful coexistence. The British embassy was extremely useful in helping this, and I hope we can encourage that to occur again in due course, because it is one way in which we must try to help solve the problems in the Middle East.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend. He is right that there are a range of initiatives. They may seem unimportant at the moment, in the context of the situation that Israel and Palestine find themselves, but it is those routes that are essential for progress. Educational support and support for people who have a strong entrepreneurial instinct for economic growth is what we should be focused on. We should not forget that, despite the terrible conflict that we find ourselves facing at the moment.

Parliamentary Commercial Department

Lord Winston Excerpts

Thursday 12th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

I want to add just one thing about what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said. The dominance of the position of the House of Commons certainly resulted in the death of one Member of this House. Many years ago, when I came in, I fought for four years to get a defibrillator established in this place, because repeatedly a number of Members of the House collapsed after speaking. Most of the time this was innocent but, once or twice, we had cardiac arrests and people were taken to St Thomas’s Hospital.

When I finally tried to raise this with the officials of this House, I was given a meeting with officials in the other place and told very firmly that the House of Commons would not accept this. One of the things that was said to me was, “What would we do if a member of the public collapsed in the Gallery? Would it be our responsibility?” Interestingly, the medical advice in this House was not considered sufficient for the medical advice in the lower House.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

Perhaps I might briefly add to what my noble friend Lord Forsyth said, focusing in particular on the door. There are many other points that could be made. I think it seems very sensible to do things jointly, although I am concerned this will lead to even less accountability. The important thing is to find out who is accountable. It is alleged that the door was going to cost £2 million and may have cost £11 million or £12 million. If this were in the private sector, I am afraid that people would be sacked. If it is true, we need answers and somebody, on every decision that is made, needs to be accountable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I will give way shortly, but I have a lot of questions to answer.

So, it is unacceptable, but the reassurance I can give is that the directorate is changing. I think that joint working, with a Parliament-wide department to deal with these issues, seems a no-brainer. Why have we not done it before? So many of the services we have are joint. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned catering. To have these individually in different Houses does not seem to be the most cost-effective way of doing things. It is taxpayers’ money we are talking about, but we also need to provide a good service for all of those working on the estate, including Peers and MPs.

On the point about the joint access, I share noble Lords’ frustrations. It does seem to me that it goes in one direction, because even those of us who are former MPs are not now able to access the House of Commons Terrace, or, for those who might like a pint in the evening, the Strangers Bar or other facilities. Yet I find that the River Restaurant at the Lords end of the building is often full of Members of the House of Commons and staff from the House of Commons. We welcome them; it proves we have better food at this end of the building. There is no calorie content on Lords menus, whereas there is on Commons menus, so that might be part of the attraction. But it does seem that we should look at a whole-House approach to these things and treat all Members of both Houses with equal respect.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about the door and whether this was the first time for the design. My understanding is that it is not the first time for the design of the pod, but it is the first time—if I am not correct, I will write to him—in terms of having it in a heritage setting with the additional security measures required. I take on board the point he made on that.

On the issue of signing contracts, I will double-check on this. My understanding is that, with most government departments and local authorities, these things tend to be self-funded. I will double-check and come back to the noble Baroness, but that is what normally happens with large organisations. I have a Treasury Minister behind me who will tell me afterwards whether I have got this wrong.

The issue around how, when you have a joint department, you ensure the needs and views of this House are taken into account is absolutely well made. The noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, raised this issue as well. Where we are getting to on this one is having an oversight body. We have looked at various ways of doing this. I think the noble Lord is absolutely right; the commission is not the best way of doing this. There is too much on the agenda. I think it has to be much more focused. That was the discussion at the commission this week. It will be a separate, bespoke body with expertise from both Houses that will ensure it runs properly and will work with the team to ensure we continue improvements.

I did not quite understand the point the noble Lord, Lord Winston, made about defibrillators. If anybody on the estate is taken ill, whether they be a visitor, a staff member, a Peer or an MP, we would want on any occasion to provide the support they need. We do have defibrillators in the Palace of Westminster; at this end of the building, we have one in Peers’ Lobby, one in the Prince’s Chamber, one in the Public Gallery and one at Peers’ Entrance. Whatever the problem was, it seems to have been resolved. It is not for the House of Commons to tell the Lords where defibs should be in this building—and I am sure the House of Commons would not want to.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

This was before we had any defibrillators. We were a long time trying to persuade Black Rod at that time to ensure that we did have this sort of support. Eventually, he called in the Serjeant at Arms and other Members of the House of Commons, who told me very firmly that this was not going to be possible. It was only subsequently that we then got defibrillators everywhere. Now, of course, we are well protected, but, in the space of that time, at least two or three Members collapsed, and we did not have defibrillators. I was called to do the medical resuscitation, so I remember this very clearly. It was quite a searing moment.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Clearly, we have moved on and are in a much better position now.

North-west Syria

Lord Winston Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I reassure the noble Lord that we are working with all regional neighbours, and we are focusing on both that diplomatic effort and the support for refugees. We are also working in terms of an EU response to that sort of migration. I reassure the noble Lord that we are doing that.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the drug Captagon was mentioned in the opening of this very short debate. As I am sure the Minister knows, this is a rather complex drug which has a number of different compounds, including amphetamine-like drugs. The spectre of hordes of terrorists fuelled with that sort of drug is really quite alarming. Does the Minister know whether we have adequate protection against such drugs as this at border control? Have we detected those drugs at customs or anywhere else in Britain?

Anniversary of 7 October Attacks: Middle East

Lord Winston Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am not sighted on the issue of the trainers that the noble Lord referred to, but he will know that our military personnel will always act within international law, which is defensive. I will double-check the point about whether we have anyone in the region in that regard. I was looking hopefully at my noble friend the Minister of State for Defence, who will come back to the noble Lord and write to him with the details.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if I might help the noble Baroness by suggesting some kind of solution that we have not discussed enough. I must thank her very much indeed for the wonderful way she made that Statement. I am also grateful for the feelings expressed around the House.

I have not spoken on this issue before, but I have numerous family members in Israel, including my brother’s family and nephews, many friends, PhD students and scientific connections who have helped us in my lab and have been there. There are also many Arabs and Palestinians who have worked in my lab in London and have been funded through various funds that we have raised for them in London, as well as PhD students whom I have been supporting in the West Bank and Gaza, so I have some reason to speak briefly.

I want to suggest to the noble Baroness one thing that has perhaps never really been understood. As Jews, we have been pointed out as different, as everybody knows. Over many generations and hundreds of years, Jews have felt eventually very lonely and extremely alone. There is no question that if you look at the Israeli mind now and speak to Israelis, they feel they are finally alone. Many attempts have been made on both sides to arrive at peace; since 1967, there have been so many attempts at political solutions. Israel has come, eventually, to the awful decision that the only solution for it is a military one.

The loneliness is massively increased by anti-Semitism; the noble Lord, Lord Walney, was absolutely right. Anti-Semitism is so widespread and really affects Israeli public opinion. We need to get public opinion in Israel much more understanding of how so many of us really feel. That, plus the irregular and inappropriate reporting in our news media, is something that we need to think about very clearly. Until that happens, it is very difficult to have better dialogue; with that, we might come to some conclusion where we could have better chances of peace in the future.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for the information about his experiences in his medical field. I hope the message that has gone out from this House and across the country is that Israel is not alone. The expressions that have been made, the international support and the discussions taking place are very clear that Israel has a right to defend itself. Both Houses, in Statements yesterday and today and throughout the conflict, have been clear that we stand shoulder to shoulder in ensuring that Israel has a right to defend itself. I hope that Israel and Jews across the country understand that they are not alone, but we want to ensure a peace throughout the region so that everybody, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, people of all faiths and none, can live together in peace—if not in harmony, at least in safety.

House of Lords: Nominations for Appointment

Lord Winston Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the things about a retirement age is that everybody thinks it should be five years older than they are. I remember the days of thinking that, when I got to 65, it would be wonderful, I would be old and I could retire; as I told my doctor last week, I have just taken on a new job. These are important things to factor in. Do bear in mind that we are not talking about a hard stop at the age 80; it is the end of the Parliament in which someone turns 80, so we are talking about a retirement age between 80 and 85. I am happy to receive any considerations that noble Lords want to make on this issue.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are to be congratulated on the experience, knowledge and expertise of some recent appointments to the House of Lords. This House prides itself as an expert Chamber. Would the Government be able to ensure that, in areas of expertise that are certainly very much needed, future appointments could be adjusted according to the needs of this expert House?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, that is one of the considerations that those making nominations for appointment should take into account. It is very important that we continue with that breadth of expertise, and also that we renew our expertise as well so that people with more recent experience can contribute. The noble Lord makes a very valid point, as the noble Baroness did, that the experience we have in your Lordships’ House covers a range and breadth.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Winston Excerpts

Lords Hansard _ Part 1 & Report stage
Wednesday 16th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for bringing forward Amendment 163, and thank other noble Lords for outlining their support for or concerns about it. The amendment refers to publishing a report on alcohol labelling to improve consumer knowledge.

Government data comparing pre-pandemic and post-pandemic figures has shown that sales of alcohol increased by some 25%. This is, as we know, a booming market and consumers need to be equipped with the right information to make informed choices. They have a right to know what is in their drinks and decide what and how much to drink. The consultation promised by the Government, with this in mind, remains something of a consultation in long-overdue waiting.

Currently there is no requirement for alcoholic drinks to include health warnings, drinking guidelines, calorie information or even ingredients. As my noble friend Lord Brooke said, this is very much out of step with any other information on what we consume. There is, as always, a balance to be struck between health improvement measures, consumer information and industry regulation, but this amendment supports a necessary move in the right direction and I hope the Minister will agree to it.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, as a doctor and a wine drinker, I have serious concerns about this amendment, particularly, for example, when it comes to the use of fine wine—I think there is broad understanding in the House of what that is—where, in every case, those bottles are labelled with the amount of alcohol. One has to accept that labelling bottles in this way does not change behaviour. We have had committees looking at behaviour change, and the only time we managed to induce behaviour change was with smoking—certainly never with labelling. That is the only time it happened and there were all sorts of reasons for that.

Much of the evidence for alcohol being harmful in minor doses is still dubious and, more importantly, there is real concern that a lot of the so-called evidence is not being put to the real test of whether it makes a difference to behaviour. I must say to the House that I think the noble Lord—I am afraid I do not know his name; my eyes are bad enough not to have been able to see his name on the screen—is right that this is unworkable. It would probably do all sorts of untold damage to what is, for me and no doubt many others, a very fine drink. We need to look seriously at whether we can simply label all bottles.

I just remind the House that there is one amendment that I could have put down. In in vitro fertilisation, embryos are cultured in culture media, which are in fact commercially made and a commercial secret—nobody knows exactly what the composition of those media is. My laboratory is looking at this at the moment. It is really interesting, because some of the products in those culture media may indeed be quite dangerous in terms of epigenetic effects. To me, that seems far more important to regulate than what we are trying to do here with bottles of wine, which is probably not really workable.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, this is an important topic, so let me start with an immediate reassurance to the House, which I hope will enable to the noble Baroness to consider withdrawing the amendment. The amendment calls on the Government to publish a report on alcohol labelling. The Government already plan to report on alcohol labelling, as it is a key part of our overall work on reducing alcohol harm. In no sense do we propose to ignore it and I undertake today that we will report on it. Part of what is taking the time is formulating what the proposals should look like, but I will come on to that.

As part of the Government’s tackling obesity strategy, published in July 2020, we are committed to consulting on whether mandatory calorie labelling should be introduced on all pre-packed alcohol as well as alcoholic drinks sold in the out-of-home sector. In addition, as part of our public consultation, respondents to the consultation will be able to provide suggestions and evidence for additional labelling requirements that they would like the Government to consider, including warning labels and nutritional information. In that sense, the consultation will be even more of a two-way process than perhaps noble Lords might have been expecting. Naturally enough, we make no assumptions in advance about any such proposals; they will have to be looked at on their merits. The consultation will be launched in due course and I can assure noble Lords that the Government will feed back the results to this House. Although, for reasons beyond my control, I have not been able to provide definitive news on the timing of the consultation—much as I would like to—I hope nevertheless that the firm commitment that I have given on the Government’s intention to carry out the consultation and on its scope will have provided the noble Baroness with sufficient reassurance to enable her to question whether she wishes to press her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, it would be perfectly possible for someone in the House of Commons to raise this issue and deal with it there. What concerns me—I pick up what the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Howarth, said—is that this seems to be a constitutional issue. I am not going to say a word about the rights and wrongs of assisted suicide or assisted dying. However, I shall just read a few words of the amendment. It asks us to agree that the

“Secretary of State must, within the period of 12 months … lay before Parliament”


not just the possibility of a Private Member’s Bill being given time, which was what was suggested earlier, but a draft Bill. That is telling the Government what legislation they have to pass. This is a matter that transcends issues of compassion or whether one is on one side of the argument or the other, because what we in the Lords are telling the Commons is that they have to support us telling the Government to put forward a Bill with which they may not agree. But they do not have any choice if this amendment is passed. That Bill has to,

“permit terminally ill, mentally competent adults legally to end their own lives”.

The amendment is not asking the Government to please give time—I could understand that. It is telling, not asking, the Government to put forward a draft Bill in support of one side of the argument. Whichever side I was on, I would feel absolutely impelled to resist this amendment.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I have repeatedly opposed assisted dying and it is well known that I feel, and have felt, strongly about it. I also feel that this is quite a different situation. I do not want to argue my case here, but serious issues are raised by the amendment. I am not persuaded that voting for it would make a difference, because the Commons can still consider what we have said this evening. However, it is clear—I completely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—that we as a Parliament have to discuss this issue.

I remember, when I first came into this House 27 years ago, in the Prince’s Chamber there was a notice recording an Act of 1620, I think—under Charles I—that argued that we should not use intemperate language in the Chamber. In this situation, I believe this is inevitably important. I regret very much that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, spoke in the terms he did. I do not think it is helpful to the argument. I think it probably destroys his argument to some extent. What the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, says is a very different matter—and I regard the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, as a friend. Above all, it seems that as a Parliament we have to discuss this, and this is something burgeoning in the public. Therefore, it is a duty to discuss this in Parliament. If we happen to introduce this Bill, which the Commons can then consider, whether it is passed at this stage or not, that would be utterly justifiable, and I support this amendment.

[Baroness Mallalieu (Lab)]

My Lords, this amendment surely goes to something of importance to all of us in this House, whether we support assisted dying or not, because it is about the role of Parliament and the proper exercise of the duties of an elected Government. The Supreme Court has repeatedly said that Parliament, and not the courts, should consider whether in some circumstances assisted dying should be legal. But so far, this Government have fought shy of doing so either of their own volition or by giving Private Members’ Bills time. There is now clear evidence that the public opinion has changed and wants Parliament to face up to this question and express its will. Yet the door is effectively being shut in the face of that opinion.

Dying is surely an issue of general public importance as it concerns every single one of us. Yet this subject is consistently and currently being starved of the oxygen of time in Parliament in order for the Government to avoid a controversial topic. This amendment does not require the Government to take sides or promote a Bill themselves; it merely requires them to prepare and lay a draft to enable Parliament to consider any possible change properly. I shall support this amendment, and I would hope that noble Lords, whatever their views on assisted dying, do the same, because this amendment is essentially about democracy.

His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Lord Winston Excerpts

Monday 12th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I feel very humble speaking in this debate, and it is a privilege to do so. Of course, His Royal Highness was completely at home in the Garrick. He had this wonderful sense of fun.

One of the institutions where he was immensely influential was the Royal Academy of Engineering, which he helped to get established. As the president recently said in his tribute, Prince Philip was responsible really for getting the fellowship established. Certainly, he used to come to the fellows’ meetings very regularly and always took such interest in the young people, often quizzing them about very difficult projects that they were doing and often knowing a great deal more than they did, even when they were the PhD student doing the work. That was quite extraordinary to see. At the same time, as so many people have said, there was this great feeling of kindness about him and a genuine humility about what he was trying to say.

I recall one dinner at Windsor. At the end of quite a long evening, he suddenly said to me, “You know, I’ve got something I want to show you in the library”. I wandered down with him to the library, really quite puzzled, and there he had set out a whole series of documents which started with Prince Albert, who of course had been president of the British Association for the Advancement of Science, as indeed His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh had been in 1950, and as I had been some years later. In fact, I think that at least five Members of your Lordships’ House have been presidents of that organisation. What was delightful about that evening was that, even though it was very late, he took pleasure in showing the little bits that Prince Albert had done, with his sense of history and, above all, his sense of engineering.

Finally, we came to the discussion at the British association between Wilberforce and Huxley, where of course they were arguing about evolution. His Royal Highness chuckled as he recalled that of course Wilberforce asked Huxley, “Tell me, was it your father or your grandfather who was a monkey?” That would have stunned almost anybody except Huxley, who said that he would have been very proud to have a father as a monkey—or something like that. That answer may be apocryphal; I am not sure. Maybe the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, could correct me on that, because he probably knows that story as well.

One particular delight was being asked to give his annual lecture at Windsor on another occasion, which of course he hosted. I gave it on the perils of technology, which was probably a bit cheeky. The walk from Windsor to get to the podium in the chapel to give that lecture was pretty long and daunting, but His Royal Highness broke the ice on the way down and made sure that I felt sufficiently comfortable on the way. Just as the podium came into sight he said, “You know, I don’t know why we invited you to give this lecture. There are too many children in the world already and you are contributing to overpopulation.” I was about to argue the mathematics of that and point out that there had only been 5 million children but suddenly thought, “I’ve got to bite my tongue, of course he knows that perfectly well”—and I got up and gave the lecture.

Finally, on one other occasion I drove up to Windsor with my wife for some do. I decided to chance my arm and drove my very old 1935 car, which is somewhat unreliable, all the way down the M4 to get to Windsor. We finally got into the castle and there was one of the staff ready to park the cars and there was His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh. As I was handing the keys to a member of staff to drive my car away, thinking that he might not be able to drive it because it was really quite difficult if you were not used to it—I was a bit worried—I saw the Duke of Edinburgh and thought that it would have been far better to ask him to do it, but there really was no time. The Duke showed huge interest in the right-sided gearstick and brake, as well as the curious knobs on the steering wheel, and then suddenly said, “Your car hasn’t got a tax disc.” I said, “Well, I know, Your Royal Highness, but the truth is, Sir, that it is a car of historical interest and is exempt from tax.” “My God,” he said, “we’ve got six of those—why didn’t I know that beforehand?”

That sense of fun put us at ease; he was the most remarkable person. He was a great human being and we can only think how hard the gap that he leaves for Her Majesty the Queen and the Royal Family must be. It is wonderful to hear these tributes to him and we wish them all consolation in their extraordinary loss. Even though he was as old as he was, it was an amazing shock to hear of his death last week.