Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

One comment I always make to local authority colleagues in Wales is about the possibility of having local authorities in Wales co-operating for certain functions, maybe on the old county level. I can see no reason why, for example, in my own county of West Glamorgan, Neath Port Talbot should not work with the City and County of Swansea, if the demand is such. That would surely be in accordance with the broad policies of the Government and should certainly help the Welsh council tax payer. I hope that opportunities will be found to encourage local authorities, perhaps on an old county basis, to work together to this end.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am not sure whether this is the first order that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has brought to the Committee as part of her responsibilities for Wales—I know she has done it for Northern Ireland before—but I cannot imagine that she was waiting in awe for the excitement of this order when she took up her responsibilities in the Wales Office.

To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, it really is beyond belief that we need to apply ourselves to this sort of detail at Westminster. If devolution means anything, surely this sort of detail should be handled down the road in Cardiff. I understand that they had a committee that looked at it for all of 30 seconds and that those who have looked at it up here have no comments to make on it. It is all detail that, no doubt, was appropriate for consultation, but it is beyond belief that a consultation on something like this should take three years. If a consultation is to be meaningful, one would imagine that all the interests would have been taken on board, including those of people who run shops.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The consultation did not take three years; that was the period following the end of the consultation.

[Lord Wigley]

I understand fully that it took about four months to receive comments from the consultees and then three years to digest what came back. If it is taking that long, surely interests such as those of shopkeepers should be taken on board. If bus lanes have an impact on anyone, it is on shopkeepers. There can be serious problems for people who need to stop and pick up their purchases.

Let me pick up the point about finance. We are told that this is self-financing. Do we therefore assume that those involved are keeping some of the money arising from the fines that are imposed? If so, who gets the money? Is it the local authority or the National Assembly? If the money is not adequate for the costs of running the new system, who pays the difference? Is it the local authority? Who pays for the appeals, for which no doubt there will be a cost? At a time when there is a tremendous squeeze on local authorities, I would have thought that the last thing they want is additional costs.

We are told that Welsh Ministers can extend the range of contraventions and are involved in the mechanics in a pretty fundamental way. Therefore, at an appropriate time—I realise that this goes beyond the scope of what we are debating today—should we not consider transferring this matter lock, stock and barrel, so that it can be handled in Cardiff without taking up our time in this Chamber?

[Lord Jones]

My Lords, I will be brief. I am grateful to the Minister for her considerate introduction to the regulations. However, do we have no statistics whatever from 2010 or 2011 on the number of immobilisations or appeals? Has the Welsh Local Government Association made no representations to the Government or to the Welsh Assembly Government? Is there an estimate of the amount of work that we are passing to local government in Wales? Do we have any insight into what the four constabularies have put on record about this change? It would be helpful for the Committee to know the scale of the work that we are passing on. That seems to be a foundation question.

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[Baroness Randerson]

Annual parking enforcement reports are already in existence on the enforcement activities of those authorities which have civil enforcement of parking. In future, these annual reports will include bus lane and moving traffic offences. Although the concern for statistics is entirely correct, and although I am saying to noble Lords that the current statistics are of limited use, in future the desire to get more statistics will be fully satisfied. There will be annual reports.

I will review what is available and consult the Welsh Government over this. If I believe that they can add anything useful to our discussion today, I will write to noble Lords. However, from what I know of the statistics that exist, they will be of little relevance when applied to the future.

On the Lord Chancellor’s powers, it was thought appropriate that provision about appeals, notification and adjudication should be made by the Lord Chancellor. This is not a devolved matter. The UK Government have worked closely with the Welsh Government to introduce the package together. The process of co-operation between the two Governments has worked well in this case. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked about the estimated cost passed to the local authorities. There is no estimate of the cost. The enforcement is not being entirely transferred to local authorities, because, as I have already said, the police will retain enforcement alongside local authorities. However, I emphasise that local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. It is expected that the schemes will be self-financing within a year.

[Lord Wigley]

If there is no estimate made of the cost, how on earth can they say they are self-financing?

[Baroness Randerson]

That is the basis on which the provisions, in terms of the parking regulations, have been applied. This is not an entirely new scheme, in that this approach applies already in London, so there is the example of London to be followed. But there is also the example of how the parking enforcement has worked, and that has been very successful. For example, in Cardiff it has been possible to apply that self-financing approach very effectively. In the event of there being a surplus generated by civil enforcement at the end of the year, it must by law be spent on transport purposes. Those purposes are listed within the regulations, so it is very tightly controlled.

Local authorities have welcomed the opportunity to enforce these contraventions. They believe that it will lead to a more effective and efficient bus service and an easier traffic flow. It is not an approach that would immediately attract rural areas, perhaps; we are talking primarily about urban areas. I emphasise that local authorities are not obliged to take up these powers; they do so only if they wish. It is for them to determine the suitability of the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to the bodies which were sent the consultation documents. The Welsh Government’s consultation documents are published on their website and were issued to numerous organisations. If the noble Lord wishes I can ask Welsh Ministers for a copy of their consultation circulation list.

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[Lord Wigley]

I am sorry to delay the Committee, but I cannot allow this point to go by. Will the noble Baroness refer to page 21 of this document, where at the bottom of the Explanatory Note there is a reference to the Welsh Government’s website? Will she look at it and decide for herself whether “www.xxxxxxxx” is an appropriate address?

[Baroness Randerson]

I assure the noble Lord that I will deal with that as a matter of urgency after this debate finishes.

Empowerment and Responsibility: Financial Powers to Strengthen Wales

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Grand Committee

Tabled By

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the first report of the Commission on Devolution in Wales, Empowerment and Responsibility: Financial Powers to Strengthen Wales.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, this is the first occasion I have had to sponsor a short debate. I am glad to have the opportunity to focus on the recommendations of the Silk commission’s first report, published last month, and, through my Question on the Order Paper, to invite the Government to spell out how they intend to take forward the commission’s recommendations.

The Silk commission was established by the UK Government in October 2011, with a double remit. The first is:

“To review the case for the devolution of fiscal powers to the National Assembly for Wales and to recommend a package of powers that would improve the financial accountability of the Assembly, which are consistent with the United Kingdom’s fiscal objectives and are likely to have a wide degree of support”.

Secondly, the commission is now considering the National Assembly’s non-financial powers. However, Silk was specifically asked to report on part 1 by autumn 2012 and the Government, as far as I know, have indicated no intention to await the completion of part 2 before implementing part 1 recommendations.

It may be worth reminding ourselves that the National Assembly has no tax-varying powers. Llanwnda Community Council, where I live, has greater taxation powers than our National Assembly. It was surely short-sighted to create such a body without adequate financial powers. It makes it far too easy for a Welsh Government, of any party, to blame Westminster when they do not have the resources they feel they need to fund portfolios such as health, education and roads. The Assembly should, as a matter of principle, have taxation powers so that it can be truly answerable to the people for the way in which it spends their money.

This is a totally different question to whether the Assembly is currently receiving adequate finance to maintain services to a standard comparable to those obtaining in England. Successive reports suggest that there is a shortfall of some £400 million per annum, and all parties in the Assembly believe that the Barnett formula should be replaced by a needs-based formula. The previous Secretary of State, Mrs Cheryl Gillan MP, stated categorically that,

“we all recognise that the Barnett formula is coming to the end of its life”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/5/2011; col. 1146].

It is suffering a slow and painful death and it is high time it was put out of its misery.

The second reason for new powers is that if the Welsh Government want to change strategic priorities and spend more, say, on our schools or hospitals, or want to introduce more enterprise zones or extend the business rate relief, they should have the capacity to do so provided that they accept responsibility for raising additional resources to undertake those tasks.

Thirdly, the most significant issue facing Wales is that of economic regeneration. Wales has the lowest GVA per head of any nation or region in the UK, standing at 74% of the UK average. We must await updated figures which will be published tomorrow, but the UK Commission for Employment and Skills forecasts that Welsh economic growth will continue to lag 0.5% behind the UK as a whole. This would mean that, by 2020, the Welsh GVA per capita will be less than 70% of the UK average.

Currently, places like Kensington and Chelsea enjoy a GVA per head 10 times higher than that of Anglesey, Merthyr Tydfil or Blaenau Gwent. This is frankly intolerable. The Assembly has devolved responsibility for economic development, yet it has virtually none of the necessary tools to do the job. In particular, it has no borrowing powers which would enable it to launch capital investment programmes to stimulate economic growth. If it uses its powers under the Welsh Development Agency Act, it loses a pound of its DEL limits for every pound it borrows. Similarly, the Welsh Government have no power to issue bonds, something which would be available to regional Governments in many overseas countries.

Devolving material taxation and borrowing powers to the National Assembly would change the mindset of political parties in Wales. They would have to consider the impact of proposed policies on the tax base. Political parties would offer the voters of Wales different approaches to taxation at election time, giving voters a wider choice of policies. As things stand, the Welsh Government are a spending agency. They need to be a more rounded and responsible form of government. All these issues were carefully considered by Silk. Unlike the Calman commission in Scotland, the Silk commission consisted of representatives of all four parties and produced a unanimous report that has been widely welcomed. This was a remarkable feat and I congratulate the commission on it. It reflects a single-mindedness of purpose on these issues across party lines in the National Assembly.

What are the recommendations that should now be implemented? They include the devolution to the Assembly of business rates in totality, stamp duty land tax, landfill tax, the aggregates levy, long-haul air passenger duty, powers to provide enhanced capital allowances at an increased number of sites and enterprise zones, the right—already conceded to Scotland—to raise new taxes with Treasury agreement, the right to borrow above DEL limits to fund capital projects with Treasury agreement, and the power to issue bonds. The Silk report also recommends that income tax raised in Wales should be shared between the Welsh and UK Governments. The Welsh Government should be able to change the basic, standard and additional rates of income tax independently, with the Assembly bearing the consequences of such changes. The income tax proposals would not be implemented until the fair funding dispute had been resolved.

Such unanimous recommendations from a body set up by the UK Government demand a positive response. In the debate of 27 November in the National Assembly on the Silk report, First Minister Carwyn Jones said that he was happy to accept the report as the basis for future funding reform and that he expected the UK Government to publish a White Paper in the new year. Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood stated that the recommendations,

“should be accepted in full and pushed forward”.

Conservative spokesman Paul Davies AM formally placed on record his party’s support for the Silk report and its recommendation, and Liberal Democrat leader Kirsty Williams called for early legislation at Westminster to implement the report. On the same day, I was heartened to hear the Minister say in our Chamber that the Government intended to respond to the report with all due speed and in a timely manner. Might a start be made today?

On the issue of income tax, I do not see why all income tax on earned income should not be transferred to the Assembly, so that taxpayers will be clear where responsibility lies for their income tax bills. Some colleagues seem to fear Wales taking responsibility for income tax because of our lower average-income levels. However, provided that—as recommended by Silk—there is agreement on fair funding, that a needs-based equalisation mechanism is introduced before responsibility is transferred, and that there is an agreement on the method by which the block grant is reduced to reflect the changes in taxation arrangements, there is no reason to fear the taking over of income tax by the Assembly.

I also believe that corporation tax should be devolved to the National Assembly. It is one of the tools with which we can tackle our economic problems. The Silk report was ambivalent about corporation tax. On page 84 it states that,

“it is clear that corporation tax is a potentially useful policy tool”.

However, it continues:

“We do not recommend devolving corporation tax to Wales”.

But then it adds:

“However, if the UK Government were to agree to devolve corporation tax to both Scotland and Northern Ireland, we would recommend the same powers be given to Wales”.

Will the Minister ensure that, if corporation tax is devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland, the Wales Office will fight to secure the same powers for Wales?

What has been recommended by the commission is no more than common practice across the member states of the OECD. Silk’s first report pointed out that, on average, sub-state Governments in OECD countries are responsible for raising a material proportion of their budgets. Silk recommends a figure of about 25% of total devolved spending, which is in line with international practice.

The commission recommends that changes that do not need legislation should be implemented without delay, and that a new Wales Bill should be introduced in this Parliament to devolve tax and borrowing powers. The commission specifically states that this should not wait until the completion of part 2 of Silk. In the foreword to the report, Paul Silk pointedly states that he is proud to recommend the package of his recommendations to the Government “for early implementation”. From this it is clear that the commission expects the Government not to cherry pick the report but to implement it quickly in its totality as a balanced package of measures.

In conclusion, will the Minister confirm, first, that the Government accept the Silk recommendation that, in order to empower the National Assembly and to improve its answerability, it is necessary to give it the right to finance a material proportion of its budget, and that the most effective way of doing this will be by sharing responsibility for income tax between the UK and Welsh Governments? Secondly, will he confirm that if a referendum is to be held on the income tax issue, it can take place meaningfully only after the fair funding issue has been resolved? When do the Government intend to announce their proposals for fair funding for Wales? Thirdly, will the Government commit to implement the Silk recommendations during this Parliament?

I hope that the Government can now make a clear statement of their intentions, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Welsh Government: Tax-varying Powers

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take steps to enable the Welsh Government to have greater tax-varying and borrowing powers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, the Government established the Silk commission to look at the case for devolving fiscal powers to Wales, and the commission reported its findings last Monday. The Government are very grateful for the expertise and rigour that the commission has brought to this important work. We will now carefully consider its recommendations and assess whether they are right for Wales and for the UK as a whole. The Government will respond to the report in due course.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to the Dispatch Box to answer questions in this way, not least because not so long ago she was asking exactly the same questions as I am asking today. Does she accept that the Welsh Government have no borrowing powers at present other than to cover temporary revenue shortfalls—a power that has never been used—or residual WDA powers, which are offset against the DEL budget and therefore provide no additional benefit? Now that the Silk report has come forward, as the noble Baroness mentioned, unanimously recommending that the Welsh Government should have new powers to borrow to fund capital investment over and above the DEL budget, as well as powers to issue bonds, can she give an undertaking that the Government will quickly move to provide these powers for the Welsh Government?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord will appreciate that, as the report was published only last week, it is very early to make decisions. I can make no firm comments about the outcome of the process that we are going through at the moment. However, on borrowing, it is important to recognise that in October a joint announcement by the Secretary of State at the Wales Office, the Welsh Government and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury acknowledged that in principle the Government agree to borrowing powers for the Welsh Assembly, and we anticipate the potential of the Welsh Assembly having the right to raise and levy taxes in order to offset those borrowing powers.

Wales: Devolution

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome today’s debate and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for facilitating it. However, I have no doubt that we will return to this subject when the Silk commission produces its report, which is expected in November. In addressing these matters today, I am conscious that Mr Ron Davies once famously stated that devolution is a process and not an event. Where are we in that ongoing process? We can now fairly assert that the National Assembly for Wales is here to stay. Fewer than 20% of respondents, in a whole series of polls, say that they would prefer to revert to the bad old days best typified when we had Mr John Redwood as a governor-general.

The two-to-one majority vote last year for primary law-making powers has given the Assembly the law-making tools in those areas devolved to it. The model, however, as the noble Baroness said, is nothing like as transparent as in Scotland, where all functions not reserved to Westminster come under the Scottish Parliament. Wales should operate on a similar basis. At some stage we are going to have to come back to that. There is also a case, as the noble Baroness asserted, for other portfolios to be devolved, most notably those of police and prisons. There is wide support for this within those services, and also for devolution of broadcasting, major energy projects and the courts.

How far should the process go? My party, Plaid Cymru, believes that ultimately Wales should have its own independent voice within the European Union, and for the present political union of these islands to be replaced with a new relationship. It should be more like a social union, with a more confederal link between Wales, Scotland and England. I expressed my own emphasis in my maiden speech in this Chamber. I want to see Wales as a nation taking all the decisions that can meaningfully be taken on an all-Wales level, and to have an effective voice in other decisions that have to be taken on a wider scale. There are models of government short of independence that may warrant consideration. These include federal, quasi-federal and confederal structures. As was noted by the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, a moment ago, I believe that when we debate the future of this Chamber, it would be a missed opportunity not to consider the possibility of it becoming a federal Chamber, particularly if devolution for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland moves towards the devolution-max model that apparently is very widely supported in Scotland.

With regard to the appropriate fiscal powers, these will depend on the level of devolution that obtains. As the process moves forward, so too must the financial powers that correspond to the constitutional powers. So, at this point in time, I suppose that we can do two things. First, we can lay down the principles that should apply, and secondly, we can lay out the fiscal powers that are appropriate to our current position on the devolution pathway.

Plaid Cymru, in its evidence to the Silk commission part 1 study, highlighted four core principles:

“Fiscal devolution is part of an evolving process by which Wales will become more economically and democratically self-sufficient;

“The Welsh Government currently has accountability over its expenditure without responsibility for its income. There are no direct linkages between taxes paid in Wales and decisions taken by the Welsh Government; decisions taken do not impact its revenue. By creating linkages, the people of Wales would be empowered over decisions that affect their wellbeing;

“The economy of Wales is underperforming. We want to see a more prosperous and more equal society. Fiscal powers provide levers towards achieving these goals; and

“The workings of government should be transparent, but current fiscal arrangements are opaque. Fiscal devolution would create greater clarity in terms of responsibility. This would enable more effective scrutiny”.

I would add that I find it astounding that our National Assembly should have less tax-varying power than does my own local Llanwnda Community Council. I do not understand why Westminster did not insist at the very outset of devolution that tax-varying powers should be part of the settlement.

All but two of the countries within the OECD that have devolved legislatures require those regional bodies to raise at least 20% of their budget from their own taxes, which in Wales would be equivalent to some £3 billion a year. One cannot begin to address the question of what tax-varying powers should be devolved without at least reviewing the inadequacy of the Barnett formula in its application to Wales. The Holtham commission showed that Wales was being underfunded by up to £400 million a year if the settlement was supposed to allow the Assembly to maintain public services at a level comparable with England. Updating the Holtham figures to the 2010-11 situation shows a widening gap, with a shortfall of up to £540 million. The Secretary of State for Wales, Mrs Gillan, said in the Assembly on 23 May that:

“The Barnett formula is coming to the end of its life and needs to be looked at”.

Silk is not directed to review Barnett, but I cannot see how it can reach conclusions without knowing the Government’s intentions with regard to replacing Barnett, hopefully with a needs-based formula.

Putting in a Barnett floor, as some have advocated, to limit the effects of the Barnett squeeze, is nothing like enough. To a large extent it is like closing the door after the horse has bolted. At a time of expenditure cuts it achieves next to nothing, and unless there is some backdating mechanism to take account of what has happened since 1999, which would generate the sum of £8 billion—the amount we have lost out on because of the Barnett squeeze over the period—the problems facing us now will not be answered. We need to replace Barnett with a needs-based formula, and we need to do it immediately. If the Government wait until after the Silk commission reports in November before indicating their intentions concerning Barnett, they will totally undermine the Silk commission and leave Wales suspended in mid-air with no inkling of where we are going. The problem is that the finance needs of Wales are distorted by viewing the Barnett settlement through the Scottish prism, but that is what happens all the time.

What are the taxes which, within our current limited autonomy, might be raised by the Assembly? If we are to aim at, say, 20% of the Welsh budget being funded by taxes raised in Wales—some £3 billion a year—that can come from one of only three major sources of taxation: from income tax, of which some £5 billion is raised annually in Wales; from VAT, which generates £3.5 billion a year; and from national insurance contributions, which raise a similar sum. Ignoring council tax and non-domestic rates, all other central taxes raised in Wales amount to some £4.5 billion. The EU rules make it difficult to devolve VAT in a meaningful way, and national insurance is directly associated with non-devolved responsibilities around social security, so my party’s evidence to the Silk commission advocated that 50% of the income tax take in Wales should come to the Assembly. In this we prefer the Holtham model to the Calman lock-step model, which makes it difficult to do more than maintain the status quo.

My party also favours devolving other smaller taxes such as stamp duty, aggregate levies, landfill taxes and airport passenger duty. I personally believe that we should look at alcohol and tobacco duties, and at oil duty. The argument that is always put forward is that of cross-border distortion, but I think that it can be overstated. There is considerable variation in taxes between the regions of other countries. One thinks of the huge difference in taxes between Zurich and Zug in Switzerland, with just a lake between the two that people can cross. In the United States, the greatest level of tax discrepancy is between two adjacent states, New Hampshire and Vermont, with no insurmountable problems. My party also believes that income arising from the Crown estates in Wales should also come to the Assembly, although that is not a massive sum, and we believe that we should have the same powers as Scotland to introduce new taxes. With regard to corporation tax, we would like the £800 million to come to the Assembly, but we accept that because of European rules, there are restrictions on our scope to make this a meaningful devolved tax. Personally, I believe that the tool we should be using should be that of providing greater investment allowances to trigger economic growth. At the moment they are available in the enterprise zone in Deeside. They should be more widely available in order to ensure that there is an incentive for those investing in Wales.

Finally, with regard to borrowing powers, there is an overwhelming case for the Assembly to have these powers. Local authorities have them, the Northern Ireland Executive have them and, under the forthcoming Scotland Act, Scotland will have them. Why on earth does Wales not have them? My belief is that we need much more than the £1 billion referred to by the noble Baroness; it would be nearer £4 billion or £5 billion. This should be brought forward immediately, and it could be done through the use of the Welsh Development Agency Act which allows such powers. It is not being used now because the Treasury insists that it should be offset against the departmental expenditure limit figure for Wales.

What is the attitude of the people of Wales towards such a change? As we have heard, 64% believe that income tax should be determined in Wales, two-thirds believe that the Welsh Government should have the right to change the level of tobacco and alcohol taxes in their budget, and when it comes to allowing borrowing, a staggering 80% support it. What are we waiting for? Can we be assured that, when Silk reports in November, the UK Government will immediately press ahead with its recommendations? That will create better and more transparent government, which is a big demand. Democratic answerability needs it and the Welsh public want it, so let us get on with it.

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[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I start by joining others who have contributed to the debate in congratulating my noble friend Lady Randerson on securing it. It has been a welcome debate with welcome contributions from all sides of the House. I certainly know from recent debates in the Moses Room that there has been an appetite among a number of noble Lords who have contributed today for a debate on a Welsh issue in your Lordships’ Chamber. I therefore welcome this particular debate, which is very timely. I also welcome the constructive tone of my noble friend Lady Randerson, who herself had distinguished service in the Welsh Assembly, and in the contributions from noble Lords in all parties and the Cross Benches.

The Commission on Devolution in Wales, commonly known as the Silk commission, was set up by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales in October 2011 to review the present financial and constitutional arrangements in Wales. The commission has met nine times to date, most recently last week in Cardiff.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, queried the commission’s terms of reference. It is fair to point out that the Government sought to work collaboratively—indeed, succeeded in doing so—with the party leaders in the Assembly to establish the commission. It is supported by all four parties in the commission. The terms of reference were agreed by all four party leaders in the Assembly. They are similar in many respects to many of those of the Calman commission on devolution, on which I was privileged to serve during the previous Parliament. However, the Silk commission has a considerable benefit over the Calman commission as it has buy-in from all parties in the Assembly. Rather regrettably, the Calman commission did not have buy-in from the SNP Government in Scotland when it deliberated.

As has been indicated, the first part of the commission’s remit concerns improving the financial accountability of the National Assembly. The commission is looking at the case for devolving tax-raising powers to the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers. While Members of the Assembly are accountable to the electorate via the ballot box every four years, the Welsh Government and the Assembly as a whole are not accountable to Welsh electors for the money that they spend. They simply spend what they are given. This point was very graphically made by a number of contributors to the debate, not least my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford and the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who talked about representation without taxation.

The public, it is fair to say, have placed their trust in the devolved institutions in Wales in the 13 years since they were established. During that time, the Assembly has been seen to mature, culminating in the overwhelming yes vote in the referendum on further law-making powers in March 2011. However, as my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno graphically reminded us, the original vote in 1997 was on a knife edge. I remember watching it on television in the small hours of the morning. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, is important: over time a consensus has emerged. That is probably reflected in the fact that all four parties were able to agree on the terms of reference and the setting up of the Silk commission.

However, the financial accountability of the devolved institutions in Wales has not changed. That cannot be right. My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy drew attention to the fact that existing bodies such as the National Audit Office and the committees of Parliament already exist. Obviously there is a role for them, and perhaps it is a role that has not been developed as much as it could be in achieving greater accountability for the way in which money is spent. With power comes responsibility. With the powers that the Assembly has acquired, Welsh Ministers should be responsible not just for spending the money but for raising some of the money needed to pay for the decisions which they make.

A number of comments have been made about the survey carried out by ICM on behalf of the commission and published earlier this week. It appears that the Welsh public agree with the need for greater accountability. I share my noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy’s view that it is not always clear precisely what was said, given that a number of the findings do not seem to quite add up. Nevertheless, there was quite a clear finding that 66% of those surveyed were positive about the Welsh Government having the right to change the level of taxation in Wales, and 56% believed that doing so would make the Welsh Government more accountable.

The commission itself has a wealth of experience, being chaired by Paul Silk, a former clerk in both the Assembly and this Parliament, and comprises nominees from each of the four political parties in the Assembly: Sue Essex, the Welsh Labour nominee; Nick Bourne, the Welsh Conservative nominee; Rob Humphreys, the Liberal Democrat nominee; and Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym, the Plaid Cymru nominee. In addition, there are two independent members, who are equally experienced: Dyfrig John CBE, chairman of the Principality Building Society; and Professor Noel Lloyd CBE, former vice-chancellor and principal of Aberystwyth University.

As we have debated, the commission has been looking at the possible tax and borrowing powers that could be devolved to the Assembly and the Welsh Government. These include powers in relation to landfill tax, air passenger duty and stamp duty, but they are in no way limited to those taxes. The commission’s terms of reference require it to make recommendations that are likely to have a wide degree of public support. In announcing the commission, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales acknowledged that it would have to consult widely to secure that support, not just in Wales but throughout the United Kingdom.

The commission’s call for written evidence closed in February this year and there has been a series of public meetings throughout Wales, starting in March in Swansea, ending in Flint in May and including every local authority in Wales in between. The commission has received written and oral evidence from a number of cross-border bodies—some referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe—such as the Confederation of British Industry, the Institute of Directors and the Federation of Small Businesses. It has also held drop-in sessions to allow representations from Members of your Lordships’ House and of the House of Commons.

Further afield, the commissioners have met legislators and interest groups in Scotland and Northern Ireland to discuss the implications of ongoing developments in these countries on the commission’s work. These included, in Scotland, Sir Kenneth Calman, Scottish Government officials, members of the Scottish Parliament’s Finance Committee; and in Northern Ireland, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and the Committee for Finance and Personnel.

I have no doubt that, in addressing its work, the commission will take into account some of the very important considerations that have been raised during our debate: issues such as tax competition and—as mentioned by my noble friend Lady Randerson and graphically illustrated with figures by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands—the practical problem of the percentage of the population living very close to the Welsh-English border. This is much greater than the equivalent on the Scottish-English border, which itself brings its own implications and considerations when looking at tax. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, mentioned the impact of using a tax-varying power of 3p in the pound on the purchasing power of poorer communities. That is the sort of consideration that one would expect that the commission might take into account.

As I said, the commission is expected to report on part 1 in late autumn this year, and the Government will consider its recommendations very carefully. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, asked for a further debate. As she knows, that is not in the gift of Ministers, but no doubt the usual channels will look at this. My own view, and clearly that of the opposition Front Bench, and I am sure others in the Chamber too, is that it would be useful. Once we have some concrete proposals, having a debate would be a useful part of considering them.

My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy asked about a referendum. We think that this is probably jumping the gun at the moment, given that we do not actually know what the proposals might be. However, it is obviously an issue that would have to be considered in view of any decisions which the Government came to on the commission’s findings. Certainly at the moment, we believe it is premature.

After publication of part 1, the commission will begin work on part 2, which will look at the powers of the Assembly and modifications that may be needed to the boundary between what is devolved and what is non-devolved. The aim here is to simplify the settlement where possible and to make it work better. Again, the commission will need to consult widely and make recommendations only where they are likely to have a wide degree of public support. As we know, the Assembly has powers in 20 devolved areas, and it is for the commission to decide where there is a requirement to tidy up the boundary of the settlement. Any further changes to the settlement must be right for Wales and for the United Kingdom as a whole. In the course of this debate, we have heard references to water, prisons, police, local government finance and broadcasting. I do not think that there will be a shortage of matters for the commission to consider, but it would certainly be inappropriate to comment on these at this stage.

My noble friend Lady Randerson also talked about the structures of the different devolution Acts. There was a difference between the Scotland Act and the original Wales Act, subsequently the Government of Wales Act; and a different settlement again in the Northern Ireland Act. I did not wholly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, when he said that the reservations in the Scotland Act were all relatively simple. Part of my job is to look at these regularly, and sometimes it can be quite difficult to interpret them. Indeed, a case has recently been referred to the Supreme Court on the extent of some of the reserved functions, so it is not straightforward.

[Lord Wigley]

The Minister will have noticed that several noble Lords raised the issue of borrowing powers. He is coming to that in a moment, I gather. When he does, will he address the question of the Welsh Assembly’s existing powers to borrow via the Welsh Development Agency Act? The problem is that the full sum is placed against the DEL allocation by the Treasury. If that could be lifted, it would enable that power to be used as it is now available in Scotland.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Almost on cue, I was about to turn to a number of the specific points that noble Lords raised in the course of this debate. What was described by at least one noble Lord as the elephant in the room is the Barnett formula. This, of course, is not part of the remit of the Silk commission, nor of the Calman commission.

I know it will disappoint noble Lords, but the Government made it very clear in the coalition agreement that the priority is to stabilise the public finances and that no replacement to the Barnett formula will be considered until the nation’s finances are back on track. However, I could not fail to hear the comments of everyone who contributed to the debate, I think without exception. Someone pointed out, although admittedly not in the context of what appears in the coalition agreement, that the Secretary of State for Wales had said that the Barnett formula was coming to the end of its life. However, I reiterate that the Government’s position is that the priority must be the stabilisation of the public finances.

Wales: National Assembly Elections

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I suppose that I, too, should declare an interest—although it is substantially smaller than that declared by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. I am a little worried that I agreed with most of what she said; it may give me cause for some concern later.

I welcome this debate as it focuses on an issue that needs attention in relation to the National Assembly’s electoral arrangements. However, I believe that these arrangements should be matters for our own National Assembly to decide, not for the two Chambers in Westminster. In this regard, I concur with the sentiments of Wales’s First Minister, Mr Carwyn Jones—something that I do not always do—in today’s Daily Post when he said:

“The electoral system for the assembly is a matter for the people of Wales and no one else”.

As noble Lords will understand, I wholeheartedly agree with him on this occasion.

I am glad that my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is here—for the first time we have been able to spend some time in Grand Committee together. He speaks with the authority of a long-serving, three-term Presiding Officer of the Assembly, who is widely recognised across party divisions as having done an excellent job. No doubt he will be speaking from the context of his experience as Presiding Officer.

I want to outline the position of my party, Plaid Cymru, on these matters. The power to determine the electoral arrangements should indeed be transferred to the National Assembly. I will address the four subjects broached in this Green Paper; first, the voting system. Plaid Cymru supports the STV system mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, a moment ago. It is used in the Northern Ireland Assembly and I believe I am right—the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, can correct me—that it is used in Scottish local government as well.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Yes.

[Lord Wigley]

Yes, indeed. I do not see any reason why it could not be introduced for the National Assembly for Wales. It avoids having two classes of Member, as is inherent in the present system, which was recognised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. The panel chaired by Sir Roger Jones that looked at certain aspects of the Assembly’s work also noted that there were two different jobs being undertaken. The STV system ensures a direct link between the AM and the voters. Incidentally, alongside increasing the Assembly numbers from 60 to 80, STV was a recommendation of the commission led by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, which reported on these matters in 2004. In fact, the amount of legislative work that has come to the Assembly is greater than that anticipated when he made that recommendation.

This Green Paper is very narrow and restrictive. It neither offers STV nor the status quo as options, and I wonder why not. Both options in the Green Paper involve redrawing constituency boundaries. The STV option does not add to the administrative workload at all. Maintaining the 40:20 split between the constituency and regional list AMs implies regular boundary reviews—costing about £1.7 million a time—to equalise constituency sizes. Adopting the 30:30 split involves no greater expenditure as it uses the Westminster constituencies. However, I emphasise that Plaid Cymru has consistently criticised dogmatic equalisation of voter numbers because of the importance of geographic and historic community links, and because it would be very much harder for an AM or an MP to serve some scattered rural constituencies than it would be in an inner-city area because of the scale and mileage involved.

Some people have suggested having 30 constituencies coterminous with Westminster but possibly electing two AMs each. Other colleagues may address this later, but unless the Assembly size is increased to 90 Members, the proportionality explicit in the 1997 referendum and implicit in last year’s referendum would be broken. However, such a change could deal with the gender balance issue as it would provide adequate capacity to deal with the Assembly’s legislative scrutiny role, which is increasingly becoming evident.

An Assembly of 90 Members would still be smaller than the Northern Ireland Assembly of 108 Members or the Scottish Parliament of 129 Members. I repeat that this is not Plaid’s preferred option as we regard the STV system based on 80 AMs as the best way forward. Plaid Cymru will not agree to any change that reduces the proportionality of the Assembly. For change to happen, there should be consensus, and I do not believe that there is consensus in Wales for either eliminating or reducing the proportionality of the Assembly.

On the five-year term, which seems to be the accepted norm at Westminster, we would likewise accept it for the Assembly but ensure that elections for the House of Commons and the Assembly did not coincide. It is not a matter just of the administrative arrangements, which could be complex enough with different constituency boundaries, but a matter of which candidates are speaking on which manifesto. It would become infinitely more complex.

If the present electoral system remains, the ban on candidates standing both for constituencies and for the list should be lifted. A ban is not imposed on Scotland. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, talk about this previously in another context in the Chamber. There is no consensus in Wales for the current system. A similar system is operated, I understand, only in the Ukraine—which is not a particularly good precedent. The ban was introduced for glaring party-political advantage by the Labour Government at Westminster and, frankly, it should be scrapped. However, if the STV were to be adopted, there would be no need to get into those problems.

On the dual mandate, I express my personal view. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to my experience in the early years of the National Assembly. My noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas may have a different view on this matter—I am not sure. I served for two years, from 1999 to 2001, as both an AM and an MP. Frankly, it was a total nonsense to try to do so, and it was impossible to do both jobs effectively. In the early months, I found myself bouncing back and forth like a yo-yo between Cardiff, Westminster and my Caernarvon constituency—a formidable triangle. That undoubtedly contributed, along with other factors, to the emergency heart operation that I underwent at that time. Furthermore, a real complication arises if the constituency boundaries differ for the two seats—if one is representing a Westminster seat, with one set of boundaries, and a National Assembly seat, with another set.

Candidates may stand on different manifestos for the two legislatures, again causing confusion. The Assembly seat should be made vacant at the point at which an AM takes the Oath as an MP. Taking the Oath should be the determinant, not the rules that are currently applied for other purposes in the National Assembly and of which the Liberal Democrats fell foul in the last election.

I conclude as I began, by reasserting that the Assembly’s electoral system should be a matter for the people of Wales to determine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

My Lords, first, I will compliment the Secretary of State, my noble and learned friend, and those who drafted the Green Paper. It is a model of clarity in its presentation of the choices before us and the arguments for and against them. As noble Lords said, the choices were consequential on earlier parliamentary legislation.

The choices that I make are governed by the principle that the best choices are those that bring the National Assembly and this Parliament closer together, rather than those that tend to drive apart these institutions. Therefore, it will come as no surprise that I favour the proposal that Assembly constituencies should be aligned with their parliamentary equivalents, and that we should follow the 30:30 model of 30 directly elected Assembly Members to complement the 30 Members of Parliament, and 30 Assembly Members elected by STV from five regional combinations of six parliamentary and matching Assembly constituencies. The pattern will lead to less confusion and more clarity among electors, and will appeal to local party organisers; I think that we all know that that is true. It will make life simpler for them—and for Members of Parliament and of the Assembly, who will be able to sort out between them the constituency cases that will belong appropriately to each of them.

I also favour the five-year term for the National Assembly, which will match the parliamentary term. Same-day elections should assist turnout. Its decline over the years has concerned us all. It should not be beyond the wit of most electors to handle three ballot papers simultaneously, especially if they have been warned in advance about what to expect.

[Lord Wigley]

Does the noble Lord not accept that if the elections for the National Assembly and the House of Commons were on the same day, inevitably the overwhelming attention of the press and media would be on the Westminster election? The paucity of our independent press in Wales underlines that. It would lead to a situation where there was no proper scrutiny of the programme being put forward for government in Wales—something that should be basic to democracy.

[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

Yes, of course there is a case to be made along those lines. At the same time, I urge the noble Lord to consider the low turnout at Assembly elections. The fact that there is a higher turnout for parliamentary elections could be combined and taken advantage of in order to secure more consideration by the individual elector when he gets to the ballot box of what else there is for him to choose. In practical terms, it may well be that United Kingdom politics would get more attention than local Assembly politics. However, I am not so sure that electors might not have a different view in each case. The fact is that they would be attracted to vote, which is what concerns me, and would make their decisions in the privacy of the voting booth.

I will return to my first principle: that we should endeavour to bring the National Assembly and Parliament closer together. Both institutions are, after all, part of the same democratic state, and one derives its power from the other. I said in the debate on the Queen’s Speech that there had been a strong tendency for the institutions to drift apart. Some would say that that divide has been deliberately promoted and a wedge driven, largely from the National Assembly side, but I would say that wouldn’t I? If so, it has not been particularly beneficial to Parliament, the Assembly or Welsh electors—quite the opposite.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have heard of that before today. I can confirm that the Prime Minister and the First Minister have met on a number of occasions and it is my belief that, among other matters, this issue has been discussed, but I am not aware of any firm commitment on the part of the Prime Minister. I know that the issue has been raised, but I am not aware of the nature of any firm commitment. I cannot go beyond that because it is not a matter within my knowledge. I am aware that the matter has been raised, but I am not aware of any commitment having been made.

[Lord Wigley]

I am very grateful. The Minister will be aware of the tenor of the representations that have been made not just from this side, but also from certain colleagues on the other side. It should be the wishes of the people of Wales as expressed in the National Assembly that determine the outcome. Will he therefore give an undertaking to those noble Lords who have taken part in the debate today that he will take the message back that this is the expectation of Wales, and that we would like a response to that representation?

Scotland Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

And caravans. I do not want to detain the House, but I know that my noble friend Lord Steel got into some difficulty with dogs when he gave the former President Ceausescu a puppy dog following a state visit in 1974. My noble friend gave one of his puppies to Ceausescu. When they had gone shooting, the birds were recovered by children, so my noble friend sent one of his fine Labradors to Ceausescu. Many years later, when the regime collapsed and the press arrived, my noble friend received a call from an outraged journalist who asked, “Did you give this dreadful dictator a dog?”. My noble friend explained that he had done so as a result of a state visit and that it had been a courteous thing to do. The journalist said, “Did you realise that this dog had its own coach, its own servants and a whole palace to live in?”. I say to my noble friend that dogs, politics and tax are best not mixed.

My noble friend suggested a tax on plastic bags. The mind boggles as to how large firms such as Tesco and others would operate if there were different taxes on plastic bags north and south of the border.

[Lord Wigley]

Is the noble Lord aware that there is a plastic bag tax in Wales?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I rest my case. I was not aware that there was a tax on plastic bags there, but if it is thought to be appropriate to have a power to introduce such a tax, it should be specified in the Bill—not as part of a general power. However, I can see that I am making no progress on this and I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Scotland: Independence

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I thank my noble friend for drawing attention to that poll, which shows that the wish for independence in Wales is very much a minority interest. He is right to draw attention to the Silk commission. The first part of it will look at the fiscal powers and whether there should be greater accountability in the way in which money is raised by the Welsh Government and the Welsh Parliament. Thereafter, it will look at the other powers. I cannot accept that devolution will lead to independence. Rather, I think it is important that, where people have their own domestic agenda, they should be able to order its priorities, be it in the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that an opinion poll published by the BBC today shows that some 80 per cent of the people of Wales support the independent NHS policy being followed by the Government of Wales, and does he accept that it is in the context of the substance of policy that these matters should be judged? Is he aware that the First Minister of Wales suggested at the British-Irish Council meeting of 13 January in Dublin that there might be a role for this second Chamber of Parliament in a quasi-federal United Kingdom? Can he say whether the Government have ruled out that possibility in the Bill that may be forthcoming in the next Session and whether the Long Title of that Bill could facilitate such a consideration?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have seen a number of the details of the poll published this morning by the BBC, which shows an overwhelming opposition to independence. As I indicated in answering questions on Tuesday, your Lordships’ House will continue to give the scrutiny that it has given since 1999 to non-devolved matters, and I expect that to be the case in any reformed House.

Scotland Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I apologise profusely to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for missing the opening of the debate. I was quite distraught, actually. There was a ministerial meeting on another matter. I had looked forward to being here for this debate.

I only rise because my name was mentioned and my presence here without opening my mouth would be looked at askance. I do not want to go into the fighting with regard to the profile taken by the SNP Government; I want to follow the question of when it is legitimate for a devolved Government to try to have their own voice. Clearly there are opportunities to deal with other countries—for example, in education, in getting students from other countries to come to your universities—where the circumstances may be different in Scotland or Wales, and those opportunities can be taken. Likewise, with regard to industrial development, Wales did very well indeed in combining with the motor regions, including Baden-Württemberg, and there is industrial benefit to be had from the bilateral relationships.

Sometimes it can get a little bit more complicated. The former First Minister of Wales, Rhodri Morgan, led a delegation to Patagonia, where there is of course a Welsh community. The interests of the Welsh community in Patagonia, if one considers them in the context of some recent developments, may not be exactly the same as the interests perceived in this Chamber. Therefore, a balance has to be struck. I do not think that anyone would say for a moment that the First Minister of Wales should not have those links with Patagonia; it is a question of how the thing is then undertaken.

We have also seen it working the other way round. Because of the existence of the National Assembly—and I suspect this is true in Scotland with the Scottish Parliament—there are opportunities for people coming from overseas to link up with people with whom they can do business on a bilateral basis. That is not a problem at all in terms of the UK.

The last two or three contributions have touched on the European Union, and that of course is where problems can arise. In Wales we have had the opportunity to lead the UK delegation from the National Assembly in matters such as the sheep-meat regime, which was led by Elin Jones, the Minister for Rural Affairs; Wales has also led in minority-language meetings. There are opportunities like that. However, the problem arises—and we do not do ourselves any favours if we hide away from it—that there will be some circumstances where the interests of Scotland or Wales may not be identical to the interests, as perceived from London, of the UK as a whole. Fisheries may be one; I am not close enough to that to know. Colleagues from Scotland are much closer to that.

It may be that even on party-political balances—we in Wales have a Labour Government now; there is a Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government here—the perception will be different and the profile that people want to project to the outside world may be different because of that. The question is: how can the line be drawn within a devolved settlement that is reasonable in all circumstances? That is what we need to address, to get the balance right there, rather than perhaps fearing that the thing can go to an extreme that causes difficulties for all concerned.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

I understand the practicalities and that it is desirable, if at all possible, to have a united line, but does the Minister not understand that there may be a genuine difference of aspiration and that the needs of Scotland may be different from the perceived needs of the United Kingdom? Does that not put the representative from a Scottish Government in a difficult position? They will either speak against the interests of Scotland, which they represent, or speak up for Scotland and go against the agreement.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, that is the stuff of the negotiation that takes places ahead of these Council meetings. It is important that there is that good co-operation. It would not be sustainable for someone in the United Kingdom Government seat at the table to articulate a policy contrary to the United Kingdom view. Obviously, one can imagine that if a Minister from the devolved Administration did not like it, he would not be jumping to be at the meeting speaking on behalf of the United Kingdom Government.

However, these negotiations take place and I recognise enough noble Lords here from my days in the Commons who took part in the fisheries debates. The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, was the Fisheries Minister and knows full well what the run-up to the December Council meeting in particular, and others, can be like. There is a negotiation to take place and a line has to be agreed in advance, not just between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government but between the Welsh and Northern Irish Administrations as well.

Devolution: Wales

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, there are regular exchanges at official and ministerial level where information is given as to legislation passing through this Parliament which has relevance for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and there are close links the other way. With regard to parliamentary and assembly exchanges, the Calman commission, on which I sat, thought that it would be advantageous if there was a greater flow of information between parliaments and assemblies, but recognised that that would be a matter for the parliaments and assemblies and not for government. On the role of your Lordships' House in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it clearly has a role in examining matters which in the case of Wales are non-devolved. We have done so since 1999 and I can imagine that we will continue to give it the scrutiny that we would expect of a revising Chamber.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that, whereas the outcome of the referendum almost a year ago to this week was quite clear-cut, the degree of devolution in various portfolios remains more unclear? In Wales, unlike Scotland, a portfolio is not devolved in its entirety but is dependent on interpretation of legislation. In order for people to understand better how the devolution settlement is working, will he arrange for this to be reviewed so that we might have more clear-cut devolution that is better understood by civil servants, by the press and media, and particularly by the electorate?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I recall taking through your Lordships' House prior to the referendum an order in which we sought to try to bring together all the different parts which had been the subject matter of legislative competence orders over a number of years with the objective of achieving greater clarity. However, I note what the noble Lord said. The Silk commission perhaps gives an opportunity for some of these issues to be aired. Obviously, the Government will have to consider what that commission proposes in due course.

Scotland Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Thank you, Lord Chairman. I am really grateful to you. You are almost a relative. I have great respect for your knowledge of procedure, including procedure in the other place, where you served with great distinction as Deputy Speaker. I remember very well that you kept me in order from time to time. I wish that you had the same powers here, by the way, but that is another story.

Perhaps I may also be permitted to speak to Amendment 16, which is grouped with this amendment. I am sure that one speech would be welcomed by the House, rather than if I spoke to the amendments separately.

As to Amendment 1, I believe that I have discovered a gap, a lacuna or whatever word one should use, in the electoral process. It came about in my discussions in relation to my very good friend, the independent Member in Lothian, Margo MacDonald MSP, who I have known for many years. In raising this issue, I wish her absolutely no ill at all—quite the reverse. I hope that this issue does not arise in any way. However, it occurred to me when talking to her and then looking at the legal position that if a vacancy arises for a constituency Member, there is provision for a by-election, and if there is a vacancy for a regional Member on a party list, the next person on that list automatically takes over. However, when an independent Member either resigns or sadly dies, there is no provision for filling that vacancy. There seems to be something missing from the arrangements. I am sure that everyone would agree that there ought to be some method for filling that vacancy. Having discussed it with the helpful people in the Public Bill Office, my amendment is just one way of dealing with that issue.

If a vacancy arose due to the resignation or the decease of an independent Member, new subsection (6B) proposed in my amendment would take effect. A new calculation would then be carried out by the returning officer, in the same way as the allocation of the regional seats which resulted in the election of that independent Member. It would be:

“for each registered party which has submitted a regional list, the regional figure for the purposes of paragraph (c) is the total number of regional votes given for the party in all the constituencies”—

we know that figure; that was used in the initial calculation—

“divided by the aggregate of one plus the number of candidates of the party presently returned as constituency members for any of those constituencies plus the number of regional seats allocated under section 8 to a party at the previous general election”.

So those seats are all taken into account. Proposed new paragraph (b) states:

“for each individual candidate, the regional figure for the purposes of paragraph (c) is the total number of regional votes given for him”—

it should say “or her”, but I am sure that in this case “him” includes “her”, or embraces “her” may be a better way to put it—

“in all the constituencies included in the region”.

Then, the vacant regional Member seat would be allocated to either the registered political party or the individual candidate with the highest regional figure. That seems to me, and it seemed to the Public Bill Office, the best way to deal with it.

I hope that the Minister and all Members of the House agree that the issue needs to be dealt with. The Minister has a great deal more advisers on drafting than I do. If, for any reason, this is not the best way to deal with the matter, I hope that at the very least he will say that he will come back with an amendment that deals with it more effectively.

Amendment 16 is very different and addresses a difficult issue on which I have changed my views—as have others, I think. It concerns whether persons should be permitted to stand for both a regional seat and a constituency seat at the same election. Paradoxically, the position is different in Wales from that in Scotland. I do not understand why it should be different. In Wales, the same individual is not permitted to stand for both a regional and a constituency seat.

A few years ago, before the most recent election in Scotland, that seemed to me to be a very sensible provision. I tabled an amendment in this House. Strangely enough—but these things happen in politics—the Minister who had piloted the legislation for Wales, and argued the case in Wales that a person should not be permitted to stand for both, made an entirely opposite argument in rejecting my amendment to bring Scotland into line with Wales. I have great respect for my good and noble friend Lord Evans, especially when he can argue one way one year and the other by the next; that is a necessary skill in politics. However, he did not give any explanation for it.

I hope that if the Minister does not accept my amendment today, he will at least give some logical explanation which will convince not just me but other Members of the House why it should be different in Scotland from Wales.

Arbuthnott identified the problem of dual candidacy in his report. He said that the commission found considerable public opposition to the party control of the closed list. Concerns cited were a lack of voter choice over the selection and election of regional candidates. This was perceived to undermine legitimacy. That is not dealing with precisely my point, but he went on to state that the lack of legitimacy was compounded by the problem of dual candidacy. While candidates were defeated in their constituency, many were then elected because they were included on closed party lists. It was noted that 88 per cent of successful regional MSPs had been failed constituency candidates.

[Lord Wigley]

That was what led to the change in Wales. There were three defeated candidates in one constituency alone all of whom came back on the list. But would that problem not be overcome if there was an open list rather than a closed list?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

There is scope for another amendment, I think. I have tabled enough already, so perhaps the noble Lord might think of tabling one. Everyone here from Scotland will know that list Members have a habit of choosing a seat they would like to stand for in the constituency and then concentrate on opening an office and taking up issues in that constituency. If the constituency Member cannot deal with a problem—elected Members will know that some problems are insoluble—the candidate will jump on the bandwagon and take it up.

Dual candidacy is a real problem. I have tabled a later amendment proposing a general review of the electoral system. I will discuss that in greater detail when we get to that amendment. It would be a better way of dealing with the issue in the longer term, but this would deal with it in the short term. Our electoral system was set up with the best of intentions, but even the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who was involved, now recognises that it is not fit for purpose. One of the problems is the question of dual candidacy. I hope that other Members who have experienced the problems of dual candidacy in Scotland will comment, and I certainly hope that the Minister will consider the potential change and, at the very least, explain why there should be a different system in Scotland from the one that I understand operates quite successfully in Wales.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, the noble Lord has raised two very important, if minor points. We have to remember that when we were legislating on the then Scotland Bill, in which I was involved in this Chamber, the additional Member system, as it is known, was completely new to this country. There were one or two loose ends that were not quite right.

On Amendment 16, which is the noble Lord’s more substantial amendment, I entirely agree with him. As Presiding Officer I had to deal privately with complaints from constituency Members about the activities of regional Members. It is slightly worse than the noble Lord said because quite often regional Members had not just stood and been defeated, they were intending to stand again in the constituency. People were sitting in the Parliament—quite unlike this place—and had every intention of fighting a Member sitting on another Bench. That made for bad relations within the Parliament and some people—I shall name no names—exploited it disgracefully. In Wales—

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords—

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I shall give way in a second. The same problem arose in the original Welsh legislation—the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—but it was the wish of the Welsh people to change the rule. Unfortunately there is not the same will in Scotland, not even in my own party.

[Lord Wigley]

It was not exactly the same in Wales. The circumstances are different in that there are four Members on the list in Wales, compared with seven in Scotland. The proposed changes would not overcome one of the basic problems. Someone who has been elected on a list can still stand at the next election for a constituency seat and do exactly what the noble Lord described, and can give up the regional seat in standing for the constituency.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I take that, but what they cannot do in Wales and not only can but actually do in Scotland is stand in the constituency and also be on the list. They have a fallback position which is not the case in Wales. That is wrong and it should be put right. Whether we can do it in this Bill is another matter but the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, raises a very important point.

On the noble Lord’s other more minor amendment about by-elections in the event of an independent Member creating a vacancy, I have an additional point to make. My memory is fading but I think that I gave evidence to the Calman commission, which has not dealt with it in the report. I was elected on the regional list as a Liberal Democrat and when I went into the Chair, of course, I had to resign from the party. There was no way that I could be re-elected because I was no longer a member of the party; I was an independent. I could not stand in Edinburgh and say, “Please elect me because I am the Presiding Officer”. I am not saying that I wanted to particularly but it was impossible to do it. My two successors were fortunately elected in constituencies but that might not always be so. When a Presiding Officer happens to be a regional list Member there is no way that he or she can continue for a second Parliament. That cannot be right. There is a minor problem in addition about independents standing on the regional list. The whole thing would be clarified if we had a different electoral system but we are saddled with what we have now and I have no instant solution to that problem. It is one that ought to be taken up as we proceed with the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

Obviously we come to this question from different perspectives, but if the amendment were passed would it not preclude debate on matters such as industrial and trade links abroad, which are relevant to the economy; matters relating to cultural exchanges abroad, which I would have thought would certainly be part of the remit of the Scottish Parliament; and, indeed, debate on a host of other matters which link through to the European Union, where there is clearly an interest in Scotland having a voice in those areas?