Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Lord Stoneham of Droxford

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate wholeheartedly the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on her amendment and on raising this issue. I also congratulate the Minister and the Government for agreeing to bring forward the amendments, to which I added my name and which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has agreed to accept. It is a good move. My group has been committed to equal pay for a number of years. We accept that there is still a long way to go in terms of culture and practice to achieve it. This measure will publicise more widely gender pay gaps in companies and will be a step in the right direction, so I welcome it immensely. It builds on some of the Government’s other policies, in particular to improve the gender balance on boards. It also shows the benefits of cross-party agreement to achieve better legislation that is likely to be more effective and more influential in its impact in the country.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I welcome the Government’s acceptance of the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Thornton and their decision to take it slightly further by changing “may” to “must”. That is an improvement and it is to be welcomed as well. I am not quite sure that I would go as far as my noble friend Lady King who was rather effusive—perhaps she was indulging in irony—in saying that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats were now all over this like a rash. Having been involved with various aspects of this Bill through its passage, I suspect that the driving force in this is in fact the Minister herself and that some of her colleagues may not be entirely signed up to it. I suspect that the word “burdens”, which we have already heard today, will be one that will appear more than once this afternoon in terms of zero-hours contracts, fixed-term contracts, internships and so on—and yet the burdens will always be the burdens on industry and never the burdens on the individual workers who have to work those hours.

This particular amendment is about women. I hope that we can hear a bit more about the burdens that people have to suffer. Earning only 81p in the pound is a burden that no woman should have to suffer. If the amendment opens things up and exposes companies that for whatever reason are paying at different levels, that is a real step forward. I welcome the amendment—and the amendment to the amendment

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Lord Stoneham of Droxford

Monday 26th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

I thought that the Government were doing much more than the noble Lord, Lord Young, indicated to enforce the minimum wage. That has been led by the Secretary of State and the naming and shaming is an important element of it—there has been considerable publicity. The Minister should perhaps spell out a little exactly what the Government have been doing in this area and the Opposition should not take all the credit. They deserve the credit for introducing this measure, but the Government are committed to seeing it enforced, and seeing that people are paid appropriately.

Finally, it should be said that this is a Bill for small businesses and, as we saw in the previous discussion, there is a danger as to affordability when it comes to the paying of fines, particularly by small employers. Those should be appropriate, so I will be interested to hear what the Minister will say about enforcement. I hope she will confirm the Government’s commitment to making sure that the minimum wage is firmly enforced.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, I was certainly in accord with the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, on his last remarks, but I find it rather strange that he should pray in aid of his argument that any fines should be affordable by the small businesses concerned. Small businesses have no need to incur any penalties whatever; all they have to do is abide by the law and they will not be forced to pay a penny more than they are legally obliged to do. There is no merit to that argument. If you do not want the fine, pay the national minimum wage.

While I suspect that the Government will resist the move from £20,000 to £50,000, my point in respect of the amendment has two prongs to it. One is that I want to know why there should be an upper limit at all at £20,000. Why is there a need for an upper limit? In earlier parts of this clause, it says that the total amounts should be in respect of the amount owed to the individual. But if there is an upper limit of £20,000—and goodness knows what kind of employer would incur a debt of failure to pay the national minimum wage in excess of £20,000—why should we use that as a cap? What is the logic, first, for having a cap at all and, secondly, for that to be the figure? If £20,000 is not to be a sufficient disincentive, £50,000 might just about do the job, and for that reason this amendment ought to be accepted by the Government.