Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Watson of Invergowrie and Lord Grade of Yarmouth

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment. I spoke on this matter in Committee, when the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, made the points he has just made about the £200 million shortfall that could well result. I have not seen that figure challenged in the months since. It is something that we have to take very seriously.

I do not want to reiterate the points made very eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and my noble friend Lord Lipsey, but I want to refer to the letter that the noble Baroness mentioned. I have a copy here. It is dated 21 October 2010 and is from the then Secretary of State, Jeremy Hunt, to Sir Michael Lyons, then chairman of the BBC Trust. It includes the important quote:

“The Government undertakes to provide a full financial settlement to the end of the year 2016/17, with no new financial requirements or fresh obligations of any kind being placed on the BBC and/or licence fee revenues in this period except by mutual agreement”.

We know that the BBC has not agreed to any such reduction, so that is one point. The other point is that in another part of the letter, the Secretary of State says:

“I believe the agreement we have reached provides certainty and security for the BBC over the settlement period”.

I believe that the Government should be obliged because of that letter in the name of the Secretary of State to uphold what was contained in it. Frankly, unless the amendment is accepted, there is a grave risk—it is not certain, I accept—that that will be the effect.

Whether or not the licence fee even has a future—personally, I very much hope it has—we do not know, but we do know that there are more than two years of the current licence fee period to run. The sort of shortfall that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, mentioned is important, as is the 13% reduction in the licence fee because of it being frozen since 2010. The effect of that has to be taken into consideration. For those reasons, I believe that the Government are obliged to accept the amendment because only by doing that can they ensure that they uphold the commitment given by Jeremy Hunt in 2010.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con)]

My Lords, first, I declare an interest as a former employee of the BBC and a former chairman of the BBC Board of Governors, and a current pensioner. Just to set that in context, my monthly sum does not cover my congestion charge for coming to this House.

I support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. The fiscal arguments have been well rehearsed. It seems very unfair to put the BBC’s fiscal planning at risk at a time when we are not that far away from the full-blown charter review and a total review of the means of funding the BBC. I will not rehearse those arguments again.

I state from the outset to the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, that I speak from the point of view that I would love to see non-payment of the licence fee decriminalised, but there are risks in doing that. There are risks that the enemies of the BBC will see it as an opportunity to remove the compulsory element of the licence fee and move the BBC to a subscription model, which would completely undermine the whole concept of public service broadcasting. I think there are dark forces at work, as you can tell from the overegging of the arguments that they have used. We have heard from those pushing for decriminalisation that the courts are “clogged up” and “overrun” with these cases. Nothing could be further from the truth. This was well rehearsed in Committee.

There is a sense in which this is a solution in search of a problem. There is not really a problem, but if it could be decriminalised without losing the compulsory element, that would be fine. But, of course, with the compulsory element, there would have to be some sanction. What is the sanction? We need to look at that, to understand that and to reflect on it in the context of charter review, not in a hurried order from government just months away from charter review.

I am deeply concerned about this measure. I am in favour of decriminalisation. A timetable is set for charter review. The present licence agreement runs out, as we have heard, in April 2017 at the end of that financial year. I see no reason to interfere with the BBC’s financial planning. I see every reason to support this amendment in order to take a measured look so that we do not interfere with the delicate financial arrangements for the BBC. Yes, those arrangements need looking at; yes, we will have plenty of time to do it after the election—I believe that there is one coming soon; I read it somewhere in one of the newspapers. Immediately after the election is settled, the starting gun will go on the charter review process. That is the time for all the stakeholders involved to have their say and to assess the impact of decriminalisation, what the sanctions will be and whether we will continue with a compulsory licence fee or some other form of funding. These are big, fundamental questions. There is a direct relationship between the source of funding and the kind of programmes that you get on your television and radio sets.

I ask the Government to think carefully before rejecting this amendment. Meanwhile, I lend my support to those on all sides of the House who are supporting it.