Scotland Bill

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

Before my noble friend moves his amendment, I wonder whether he would comment on the very interesting proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, earlier this evening when he suggested that two questions be posed, so avoiding a yes or no answer on the ballot paper. I recall that in the 1997 referendum the words were “I agree that there should be a Scottish Parliament” or “I do not agree that there should be a Scottish Parliament”, and that there was the same in respect of the tax-varying powers. Would my noble friend like to comment on that as a possible wording, which we all accept is very important, as it would avoid a straight yes or no answer to a question?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My noble friend is a former Member of the Scottish Parliament, as I am, and I thought it was very interesting that the suggestion came from the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, himself a former First Minister of Scotland, as he has a great deal of knowledge about this. I think that is a very interesting suggestion, which I hope the Minister will feed into the discussions that are taking place. If the Scottish Parliament or Scottish Executive suggests one question and we are sticking to another one, perhaps there could be agreement on two counterbalancing questions—questions that have different outcomes—for which people could vote positively. In other words, no one would vote negatively; everyone would vote positively for their option. I think that is a very good suggestion.

The fact that these things have been suggested shows, as I hope my noble friend agrees, the value of these debates, the value of Committee stage and the value of the House of Lords. Earlier we were talking about tweets, and I have been getting tweets asking what right I have, as someone who is not elected, to make any comments on this. I can understand the politer ones that raise that question, notwithstanding the fact that I was an elected representative for many years. One of the answers is that debates in this place, as we have had today and previously, can come up with very useful suggestions which can move things forward in a very positive way. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has, as usual, made a very persuasive speech, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply to the points that she has raised.

Amendments 93 and 98, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, call for a much greater involvement of the Electoral Commission, which I strongly support, on account of two incidents.

The first incident involved the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood. In the first election to the Scottish Parliament he and I were two of the last three to be elected in Scotland. The counters went on strike at 4.30 am because of the complexities of the proportional representational vote. As a result, we came back the next day and we were elected two out of the last three; the third was Robin Harper, the first Green candidate to become a parliamentarian. However, we did not know that 2,000 votes had not been counted.

When this became clear, with great alarm I wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland, now the noble Lord, Lord Reid. He replied that he did not have the powers to do anything about it, but that we could take legal action if we so wished. Happily, the chief executive had thoroughly studied the matter, and whichever way the votes were counted all three of us would have been elected. As soon as we knew that, we had no desire to take the matter any further. I think that the votes have now been destroyed and it is impossible to rectify the matter. However, that incident should never have occurred and if the Electoral Commission had been involved, I believe it would not have done.

The other incident occurred during the devolution referendum in 1979. I remember vividly the late Robin Cook being very much involved because 2,000 electors had written “No” opposite the word “No” on the ballot paper, and the counting officer said that writing “No” opposite “No” meant “Yes”. I actually believe that they meant “No”. We asked to speak to the chief voting officer in Scotland but he would not come to the phone. There were murmurings of calls on television for resignations if the matter was to be swept under the carpet. He did come to the phone. He was not very good tempered but he said he would look into it. Within two hours, they had rectified the matter and the votes were counted as no votes. This was important in that referendum because it was on a knife-edge; the results were very close and regarded as somewhat inconclusive at the time.

I mention these two episodes to emphasise how very warmly I welcome the Minister’s statement that he wishes to involve the Electoral Commission in an overseeing role. If you have a Government at Westminster who take one view and a Government in Edinburgh who take a different view, it is very important to have an impartial body that has both objectivity and expertise.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

I wish to make some comments in relation to the amendments spoken to by my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton and the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, in respect of who should have the opportunity to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence. Much as I respect my noble friend, I cannot agree with her premise that those who were born in Scotland and move to other parts of the United Kingdom or even further afield should have the opportunity to vote in the referendum.

At the time of the referendum, whenever it is—like many other noble Lords I hope that it is as soon as possible—it has to be a vote for people who are at that time living in Scotland. I am aware that that will involve a number of people, not least a considerable number that is reckoned to be about half a million people, who would describe themselves as English domiciled in Scotland, as well as people of various other nationalities who happen to be living and working in Scotland. If they are on the electoral register as EU citizens, I believe that they should have a vote.

The question of Scots who have moved—of course, the Scottish diaspora is considerable—beyond the confines of Scotland is a difficult issue in this situation. To some extent, I have some connection because my son has a Scottish father and an English mother but he was born in England. He is well short of voting age but the point is that many people in that situation would have an interest. In the future, he may choose to live in Scotland.

After leaving university, I went to live in England. I was living and working in England at the time of the 1979 referendum. I was not on the electoral register in Scotland, although I travelled home in the weeks immediately prior to the referendum every weekend to campaign vigorously for a yes vote. Even though I did not have a vote myself, it did not occur to me that there was anything wrong with that. I had chosen for whatever reason to leave Scotland.

It may well be that there are many thousands of people who, like my noble friend Lady Taylor, were perhaps very young when their parents left and they more or less had to go with them. I accept that they may not have made that decision but none the less on becoming an adult they would have the option to go back to live in Scotland if that is their choice. They are more than welcome to do so. For people who have left Scotland—I left, went back and left again—the situation is simple. You have to be domiciled in Scotland to have a vote on something as important as this. Just to say, “I am Scottish in my blood; I feel a Scot; and I do not feel any other kind of allegiance” is not enough.

A very interesting example was raised by my noble friend when she talked of the very impressive Bolton Wanderers manager, Owen Coyle, who I know. When I was a Member in another place, Owen and two of his brothers who were also professional footballers at the time were members of the Labour Party in that constituency. Whether he holds membership now, I do not know. I have not spoken to him for some years. But the interesting thing is that Owen Coyle, born and bred in Glasgow, played for the Republic of Ireland. He is an international but he played for the Republic of Ireland. It is not just as simple as saying, “He is a Scot, living in England and therefore he should have a vote”. He has played for the country of his parents because they were Irish. Various issues muddy the water here.

The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, introduced the concept of Scottish nationality, which is difficult to define in itself. He says that a person shall be considered to be of Scottish nationality if they are ordinarily resident or resident in Scotland, wherever they come from, however long they have been there and having made their home in Scotland. I would say that someone in that situation should be entitled to a vote in the independence referendum but to say that they have Scottish nationality is stretching it a bit. I do not think that that is the way to define it. I understand the point that he is making and, to some extent, I agree with that part of his amendment but not with the bit that follows.

To conclude, this is a matter of great importance to Scots wherever they live and they are of course spread throughout the world. At the time of the independence referendum, it cannot be justified to say that those people who, for whatever reason of many reasons, have left Scotland and have gone to live somewhere else should have a vote. The people of Scotland—but not just Scots of course—at the time of the referendum, I believe, should be those who make the crucial decision when the independence referendum comes along.

Scotland Bill

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill but I fear that in many ways it is too timid. The coalition Government had a commitment in its agreement to,

“implement the proposals of the Calman Commission”,

but they have fallen some way short of that. We have heard about the aggregates tax, which has been left on the shelf and, pending developments, may yet be brought forward. There seems to be no such proposal on air passenger duty. Half of the yield from tax and savings and investments was recommended by Calman—we have heard nothing of that—and there is to be a restriction on the borrowing powers to £500 million with £200 million in any one year. That is still an increase in one sense, but both the legislative consent committee of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Affairs Committee advocated going farther. The Scottish Affairs Committee suggested a figure of £1 billion, with £500 million in a year. I hope that the coalition will be amenable to amendments to that effect at the Committee stage. The powers on borrowing should be brought forward. They are scheduled to come into effect in 2015 and I hope that that can be brought forward to at least 2013.

The additional tax raising powers mean that the Parliament will become more dependent on the tax revenue it raises itself. That is surely a positive move, both for the standing of the Scottish Parliament and in terms of its legislative programme and the work that it carries out. I do not share the fears of the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Lang, as to the effects of the Bill’s proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Lang, questioned the settled will of the Scottish people both in terms of the original Scotland Bill and indeed of this one. It is quite clear that the 1977 referendum bore out the assertion that John Smith had made some three years earlier. I would accept that there is no settled will as such among the people of Scotland on this issue largely because it has not had anything like the publicity or coverage, discussion or debate that the original Bill had. However, I believe that there is an expectation that the much quoted “process, not an event” should be borne out.

Around 170 orders under the Sewel convention have been passed through the Parliament over the 11 years of its existence. That is one of the signs of development. There has been a constant change and improvement in the way that the Parliament operates and indeed in its relationship with the UK Parliament. Evolution or devolution is a natural process, though, and should be expected by Scots. The Bill meets their expectations to some extent. I disagree with my good and noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock on one of the points that he made. He fears a process whereby step by step we get closer to what I think he described as the edge of independence. I have more faith in the Scottish people’s understanding of the issues involved in such a major change and what it would mean for their lives.

I also believe that up to now the people of Scotland, when asked to vote on the issue, have shown a clear differentiation regarding what it means to vote for the SNP. The reason for voting for it in Scottish Parliament elections and in UK elections—they voted for it in droves in May this year—was not that the main goal was independence; it was about the perceived competence of the SNP Government over the previous four years. People are capable of making those distinctions. If and when the referendum campaign comes—I support my noble friend Lord Foulkes in saying that it should come sooner rather than later, and I will back him when he comes forward with his amendment in that regard—and the debates and discussions are held, the Scottish media will be well able to air the issues.

If I am confident of anything, it is that the political parties that want to maintain the union will be able to make their case convincingly, although they need to make it more convincingly than they have been doing up to now. If there is no movement with regard to devolution 12 years down the road, while I do not believe that we will have a revolution if there is no evolution—there will not be an insurrection—there could be a revolution in constitutional terms if for some reason it is seen that only the SNP is interested in trying to advance the interests of the people of Scotland, develop its democracy and to some extent meet their needs in terms of greater accountability over the people elected to legislate.

People have mentioned UK-wide parties, but that is probably not quite correct; it is GB-wide parties that we are members of. Those of us in those parties have to accept that political opposition to the SNP’s bid for independence is often based on scaremongering. We seem to be very much on the defensive; we are on the back foot, and generally that is not a position from which anyone has achieved a victory. I have to say on behalf of the Labour Party that we found that out to our cost just four months ago. We largely fought the Scottish election campaign on the back foot, and we are now paying a high price for what I would say was our inability to articulate in advance a positive rather than a negative case for winning support.

To some extent, that is the elephant in the Chamber this evening. Since the Bill was introduced some months ago, not only the goalposts have shifted; we have moved on to a different pitch with a completely different surface. Let us not make any bones about it: the SNP recorded a stunning success in May, one that was supposedly impossible under the electoral system that obtained for the Scottish Parliament. It is wrong to blame the electoral system for what happened. I was personally in favour of that system at the time and remain in favour of a more proportional system. I shudder to think how much more decisive the SNP victory could have been if it had been under first past the post; there would have been no representation by other parties. It is interesting to see the Advocate-General nodding his head there; I think that he would support that point. For all its faults—it is not a perfect system; there is no such thing—by and large the Scottish Parliament’s electoral system has served the Parliament well because it has drawn a line between what happens at Westminster and what happens in the devolved Administrations, and the same is true of Wales and Northern Ireland.

The SNP presented a positive programme for Scotland and was rewarded for that; this is how we in the three GB-wide parties should react. We have not reacted in Scotland since the election in May. There has been a pretty mute response to be honest, partly because the parties are still shell shocked. The Lib Dems have chosen a new leader—I am not sure whether there was an election—the Tories are in the rather entertaining process of doing so, but the Labour Party has so far left the SNP facing an open goal because we have not even been able to put forward a candidate. I hope that will be put to rights soon. All the while, the SNP is getting on with business and is presenting a face to the people of Scotland which no other political party in the country is able to do.

I was interested to see the TNS-BRNB poll on independence published this week. A chart was drawn going back to August 2007, which I believe was when the SNP first published its White Paper on Scotland’s future and mentioned eventually holding a referendum. The question asked—I agree with my noble friend Lord Foulkes that in any poll the questions are fundamental—was: do you agree that the Scottish Government should now negotiate with the UK Government on independence? In August 2007, 35 per cent agreed, while 50 per cent did not. At the time of the May 2011 elections, these figures were 37 and 45 respectively. Now, 39 per cent believe negotiations should be undertaken and 38 per cent do not.

I do not think anyone should be in any way surprised at these figures, given that since the May election virtually nothing has happened in Scotland in political terms that has not been driven by the SNP. This is the wider context of the Bill that we are discussing today and that we will be discussing in the early part of next year. The political landscape and the political context of Scotland have changed dramatically since this Bill first appeared. The Bill is more important than ever because it is a tool which demonstrates to the Scottish people that there are progressive moves—I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will not see it in these terms—within the UK Government on behalf of Scotland, and that the SNP are not making all the running. That is a very important message to get across.

The Bill’s proposals will make a difference to the way the Parliament is perceived because of the accountability that it will bring in terms of tax-raising powers. However, as I said earlier, I agree with my noble friend Lord Foulkes that we need to get moving on the referendum. I urge the Advocate-General to think very strongly about including this in the Bill when it goes to Committee. The delay can serve only the nationalists. If they felt strongly enough about their position, they would have called the referendum more or less immediately after the election in Scotland. Clearly, they do not feel that strongly, so why should we wait and allow them to call it at a time that is most beneficial to them, as they would do naturally as a party? Let us get this debate up front and let us give the Scottish people the chance to make their decision on a straightforward and unambivalent question.

It is quite clear from the debate that took place in another place on this Bill that the SNP is still more concerned with arguing about the inclusion of corporation tax and what it calls full financial responsibility, neither of which, I am sure, would do anything other than reduce the block grant for Scotland. On that point, I would urge some caution with regard to tampering with the means by which the block grant is calculated. My noble friend Lord Morgan urged ending the Barnett formula for reasons that he outlined very clearly—it does benefit Scotland—and your Lordships decided in Committee two years ago that it should be replaced. I understand that, but one has to be careful what one wishes for if one values the union, because ending Barnett, or even changing it dramatically, would be an absolute gift to the SNP.

Finally, I will say a word about the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, regarding the definition of a Scottish taxpayer. I share those concerns. The Law Society of Scotland stated in evidence to the legislative consent committee of the Scottish Parliament that,

“it would be much better if there was a simpler definition that anybody could pick up and read”.

Clause 32 of the Bill was inserted after Report stage in another place, but it has not provided a simple definition. Indeed, proposed new Section 80F, which remains, talks of spending,

“more days of a year in Scotland than in any other part of the UK”.

As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, says, your Lordships are not excluded from the elected parliamentarians in respect of that. Just think for a second: it is not at all unusual for your Lordships’ House to sit for 150 days a year. If some of your Lordships were to travel from Scotland on a Sunday—remember, it is where you end the day that counts—that could add to that figure. There are also weekends, the time you may spend out of Scotland during recesses and so on. It would not be difficult to get from 150 days into a position where you were spending more than half of that year in London or another part of the UK rather than Scotland. That needs to be clarified and, I hope, laid out clearly in the Bill.

In closing, I believe that the Bill contains many positive proposals. It enables us to advance to the people of Scotland the case that we can have the best of both worlds—being part of the United Kingdom, while having a devolved Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people of Scotland and will now have substantial tax-raising powers. I look forward to discussing these and other issues in Committee.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Excerpts

Thursday 20th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am so glad that I gave my noble friend the opportunity to make that point, a very important point indeed. It is an extraordinary piece of neglect on the part of the Government that they have decided not to give that explicit responsibility to a single Minister. He will acknowledge—I think he did in his intervention—that quite separately from that, it is equally important that the City has some individual to go to who actually sits in the House of Commons and has constituency responsibilities, including the City. That cannot possibly be an effective role if it is divided up. We all know that a responsibility divided is a responsibility that gets neglected. It is impossible for an individual, if he or she were just to represent one corner of the City, to go to the Government or—a point very well made by my noble friend Lady Hayter—to go to the European Commission or anybody else and say, “I am speaking on behalf of the City”. It is equally important that people in the City—it may be the different trade associations or individual firms—are able to go to someone in Parliament who understands the City, who, as a matter of professional integrity, has made sure that he or she is well briefed, even if they do not have a financial background, on the major issues in the City, whose door is open and can understand representations on City-related subjects and can take them up. That is a great strength in Parliament; that is a great strength for this absolutely key economic sector in our economy. That is an asset which would be destroyed if we do not retain the City as a specifically demarcated parliamentary responsibility. So I very much support the two amendments that have been moved tonight, and I hope the Government will take these points on board and accept those amendments, or at least give us some assurance that whatever comes out of this Bill will not enable any future Boundary Commission simply to allow the City to disappear as a parliamentary responsibility.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

I rise briefly to supplement the remarks of my noble friends Lord Martin and Lord Foulkes in relation to Amendments 80 and 81 in respect of the city of Edinburgh and the area of Argyll and Bute. I speak on both from a personal viewpoint: I should declare an interest, albeit a rather removed one, in respect of Argyll and Bute. My great-grandmother came from there in the 1880s as an impoverished Gaelic speaker with no English. It is quite moving to read her Poor Law application, of which I have a copy, which she signed with just a single X—one of many thousands of islanders forced from the Highlands and Islands of Scotland by the appalling Highland clearances. An example of that is that the island of Islay, from which my great-grandmother came, once had a population of 15,000; that was in the 1830s. It is now 3,500: it dropped dramatically throughout the latter years of the 19th century, with many people going to Canada, the USA and Australia.

My wife and I regularly keep in touch with developments in our extended family through the various websites of Islay people. I think it would be wrong to say that Argyll and Bute is only about Islay—of course, that is a small part and the part I know best. But the Gaelic tradition of Islay and other islands, as well as the Western Isles, is an important consideration when it comes to parliamentary representation. Islay itself was one of the earliest islands settled. It was the home of the Lord of the Isles; it has the Gaelic Islay Columba Centre, part of the University of the Highlands and Islands, specialising in Gaelic. It is important that that is recognised in terms of its representation. Argyll and Bute itself, as a constituency of about 67,000 people, would fall short of the arbitrarily chosen figure of 75,000, give or take. As my noble friend Lord Martin said, with about 2,700 square miles, it is a massive area to be covered, and that has to be given consideration in terms not only of the coastline, which was referred to, but also of the very specific interests that have to be looked after. There are special islands allowances given by the Scottish Government to reflect that.

My noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke mentioned the fact that, in terms of travelling to and from those islands, it is rarely a simple matter. Some of them, including Islay, you can fly to, but mainly you have to go there by ferry. It is very difficult to get there and back in a day; if a parliamentary representative went to one island but wanted to go to more than one, they would not be able to get back to their base on the same day. In many cases, if you go to an island on one day by ferry, you cannot get off that island for a couple of days until a ferry is going on somewhere else.

It is important to recognise that fact, and to lump Argyll and Bute together with some other part of the mainland would be unfortunate. I have to recognise—it would be unfair not to do so—that Helensburgh is part of the Argyll and Bute council area. That only came into effect some five years ago, but by and large, it is a collection of islands needing specific representation. With an electorate of 67,000, it is more than capable of qualifying for that. I hope that that will be borne in mind.

Finally, I would like to say a few words about Edinburgh. I should also declare an interest as a constituent in Edinburgh North and Leith, admirably represented—as my noble friend Lord Foulkes said—by Mr Mark Lazarowicz. The decline in the number of Edinburgh constituencies from seven to six and now to five has been against trends. We know that the most recent reduction was a reflection of the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. That has some validity on its own, but it means that the city, at a time when its population is growing, has seen a reduction in its constituencies. As things stand, if the 75,000 quota were strictly adhered to, it could well lead to Edinburgh being, in effect, farmed out to bits of Lothian—East, West and Midlothian—to make up the required figure. That is why, as my noble friend Lord Foulkes said, the 10 per cent figure would be far more valuable and would help Edinburgh maintain those five constituencies.

Although I live in the area which is part of Leith, I will not tread, either literally or figuratively, on the territory of my noble friend Lord O’Neill, who knows these matters much better than I do. As an incomer, however, I say that the people of Leith have their own pride and that must be respected. Equally, the people of Edinburgh as a city have their own pride. The historic significance of Edinburgh, not only as the capital city of Scotland but also as a major tourist attraction for all sorts of reasons at all times of the year, has to be given some consideration and not treated by the blunt instrument approach, which could well see the number of constituencies reduced from five. I very much hope that will be taken into account by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, when he responds to this debate.

[Lord Selsdon]

My Lords, I intervene when anybody mentions the word Islay, since my family comes from Islay. With a name like McEacharn, one of the biggest whiskey producers in Islay for many years, with a black labrador called Islay and with a great-grandfather who was Lord Provost of Edinburgh, I have to support the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. But he is making a few mistakes. We, in the McEacharn family, created the Scottish Line—the only shipping line allowed to carry the Scottish flag. As things became bad, we migrated and helped the migration of people all over the world. My other great-grandfather was the first Lord Mayor of Melbourne, and one of the first Members of the Parliament there.

Therefore, what the noble Lord says now strikes a chord with me. I support him fully, but he must accept that, over time, there have been movements and migrations and changes in the economies of the various countries. If he speaks of Leith, where my family came from as well—the shipowners and others—then I congratulate him on promoting the part of Scotland that I love.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

I welcome those remarks, but at some future stage it might be possible to have a discussion on the item to which I think the noble Lord was referring when he said he disagreed with me—the Highland clearances and their effects. That would be a very interesting and worthwhile debate for some future time. He says he has relatives who come from Islay, as I do. I cannot claim to trace mine back to the Lord of the Isles, but perhaps he can.

[Lord Tyler]

I shall make a brief contribution and acknowledge that a number of very succinct and relevant points have been made in this debate, which contrast with the way in which the argument was taken forward earlier in the week. I do not in any way disrespect the cases that have been made on behalf of specific areas of the country, because I took great pride in the constituency which I had the pleasure of representing for a number of years.

I want to make two general points about this whole group of amendments. Incidentally, I understand that the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Teverson is now in a different group, so I will not address that. First, there have been a number of occasions when those who have direct experience of urban areas have suggested that somehow rural areas do not deserve the same amount of attention and that their Members of Parliament do not have as much work. Since I was the representative of a very big, scattered rural constituency during the period of both foot-and-mouth and BSE—and I know that there other Members who had this experience—I have to say that a Member of Parliament can be on 24-hour call in a rural constituency. I do not wish to pursue that. Indeed, I know of the long distances and the difficult topography in the particular case of Argyll and Bute, which I had the pleasure of visiting when I was responsible for rural policy for my party in the other House. It is important in this House that we do not create an artificial distinction between urban and rural constituencies.

I am trying to be brief.

Scottish Parliament (Constituencies and Regions) Order 2010

Lord Watson of Invergowrie Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Adams of Craigielea]

My Lords, I did not intend to speak tonight but I hope that the Advocate-General will take note of the passion that is felt, particularly on this side of the House, about what is happening in the other place. He started by giving us a list of the people who have been consulted on the order. Unfortunately, those people will not be consulted again on the constituencies that are to be represented in general elections. It will be simply number crunching and a question of what we are about to receive from the other place.

I have given evidence to three Boundary Commission hearings, when my constituency of Paisley North was being thrown from one side of Paisley to the other. As my noble friend Lord McAvoy pointed out, people in local communities are passionate about what they feel about the community they live in and the people who represent them. I was reminded that my noble friend once laid a Bill about Rutherglen in the House of Commons—I was a signatory. Like him, I live in a satellite of Glasgow—Paisley, in my case—and, although we loved our big brother dearly, we did not want to live in his house, so I was happy to support my noble friend then.

I come back to the Boundary Commission hearings. My colleagues mentioned the late John Smith. The last time that I saw him was as he was getting out of a taxi returning from giving evidence to his Boundary Commission hearing and I was getting into the same taxi to go north to give evidence to mine the next day. He felt passionately about it. He had spent all that day doing it and he came back ebullient; he was convinced that he had won agreement to what he had put forward, as, in fact, he had. Fortunately, so did I the next day. But, with what is coming to us, we will never have to do that again, because it will not be a matter for the communities who feel passionately about their area, who know it best and whose children go to the same schools; it will simply be a matter of whether you make up the numbers. It is no wonder that people are uninterested in politics. When they are just part of the numbers game, they will never be interested again.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

My Lords, I echo many of the comments made by noble Lords on this side of your Lordships’ House during the past half-hour or so. I was struck particularly, and not for the first time, by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, who spoke in the only way he knows how as far as Rutherglen is concerned: with passion. He has done so many times over many years. He was able to refer to flaws, as he and some of his former constituents see it, in the way in which the new boundaries have been drawn up. There will be no process to enable him to do that when the UK parliamentary constituencies are revised, as noble Lords have said. Although that is not the subject of this debate, it is important that those points are borne in mind.

If—heaven forbid—the Advocate-General and the coalition were still in power when the Scottish Parliament boundaries next came to be reviewed, is it his understanding that the system that we are being asked to approve this evening would still exist, or would the Scottish system as well convert to the system that is being foisted on us for the UK boundary changes, which are designed to reduce the number of seats in the House of Commons from 650 to 600? It is pertinent to ask whether we will have the opportunity to deal with a similar order the next time round.

A more specific point that I wish to raise with the Advocate-General stems directly from the Explanatory Memorandum to the order—he referred to it to some extent in his opening remarks. Paragraph 8.3 states that,

“the Scotland Office consulted electoral administrators”,

on how the changes might be applied, particularly in respect of an extraordinary general election in the Scottish Parliament that may take place between now and 5 May, when the normal general election is scheduled, or if any by-election took place within that period. My noble friend Lord Foulkes commented on the anomaly whereby, in some cases, there would be a by-election for the Scottish Parliament and, in others, there would not. If an independent Member chose to stand down, how would it be dealt with? The noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, who recently joined your Lordships’ House, has announced that he will not seek re-election for the Scottish Parliament next year. If he should decide—and there is no indication that he will do so—to resign within the next month, it would cause a by-election. Could the new boundaries be brought into play for by-elections? Paragraph 8.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum states of the electoral administrators:

“As for by-elections, their view was that this was a localised risk that could be managed should the need occur”.

How on earth could a single by-election be run on new boundaries while the existing boundaries were still in place for everyone else? I am concerned that the electoral administrators can give that sort of advice. The memorandum states also:

“Administrators supported running an extraordinary general election after 1 December on the basis of new boundaries”.

I am pleased to see that that view has not been taken on board, because, as the Advocate-General has announced to us, the boundary changes would not come into effect if there were an extraordinary general election. But why does he believe that the electoral administrators gave that advice, which seems bizarre and would cause considerable confusion, if not chaos, in representation within the Scottish Parliament?

[Lord Lyell]

I have a question for my noble friend—I think that he is my noble and learned friend, although I am never quite sure about the old titles Lord Advocate, Advocate-General, and Solicitor-General. Certainly he is learned in the law. Would he briefly look at page 10 of the admirable document that we have in front of us? It has a coloured map—my sight is still reasonable—and I am fascinated by the little green sector marked “7”. I think it is classified, thank goodness, as applying to the Scottish Parliament. I was going to ask what we might be doing about boundary changes for what are known north of the border as Westminster elections, but which I call general elections.

I ask my noble and learned friend to glance straight above the figure 7 in the green sector—I am not necessarily colour blind, nor in any way religious so far as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is concerned—where he will find a sort of pencil of land jutting straight in, surrounding the lovely town of Forfar. I am delighted to see that Forfar is now classified as being in Angus North and Mearns. I am sure that my noble friend Lady Carnegy will be delighted to know that it is in north Angus. Above all, will my noble and learned friend have a look at the north sector of that particular appendage? I believe that it follows the river South Esk. Having had some valuable insight as to the boundaries for the Scottish Parliament elections, can he say how they follow existing boundaries for borough, council or local elections? I am curious about that.

Perhaps my noble and learned friend can advise me. Are these boundaries for the Scottish Parliament? Under present rules, Members of your Lordships' House can vote there. However, under what may be proposed for your Lordships' House in the future—possibly in my lifetime, fairly soon—we shall not be able to vote in what we call general elections. Therefore, it would certainly be in my interest to know the boundaries for the general elections for Westminster. Today's legislation is purely dealing with the Scottish Parliament, so I am grateful for that.

I am even more grateful that my noble and learned friend has pointed out in the Explanatory Memorandum, in paragraph 7.4, that the DVD-ROMs, such as they are,

“have been deposited with the Secretary of State for Scotland for safe keeping”.

I think that it is now known as Fort Wallace and we are very happy that at least he can retain them.

Various noble Lords who have spoken have expressed the view that the by-election issue is a localised risk. This has been beautifully aired this evening in your Lordships' House and I hope that my noble and learned friend will be able to give me some advice about that. If he cannot do that tonight, perhaps he can write to me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

I can accept that—the order is quite clear on it. My question concerned how he and his officials, or indeed the Boundary Commission, dealt with the electoral administrators’ suggestion that they could hold an extraordinary general election on the new boundaries and, it seems, that they could even deal with a by-election before 5 February, which is the cut-off date under this system. That is what I fail to understand. Obviously they lost that argument, but the fact that they could put the argument seems a little alarming.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Although the order was laid on 1 July, the Boundary Commission’s report was made available on 26 May and has obviously been in the public domain. Although the legislation is not in place, the electoral administrators have been working towards its implementation on the basis of what is in the order.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked what the main issues are. One of the most important issues is the compilation of the electoral register for the new constituencies. It is my understanding that the new electoral register will be published on 1 December and will reflect the new constituencies for the Scottish Parliament. It will be compiled on that basis. Obviously, if a by-election occurs, it will have to be fought on the existing constituency. It will require some work to put the electoral register together again for the existing constituency but, in the event of that happening, the electoral administrators are confident that it will be possible. It will not have to be done for the whole of Scotland but will be confined to one constituency. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s question.

More generally on by-elections, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made an interesting point about the different arrangements that can occur. Several noble Lords who have spoken in this debate contributed to, or at least were present at, the debates when the Scotland Bill went through another place and no doubt there are other noble Lords here who were present when the Bill went through this House. A number of us were also members of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, which proposed a scheme leading to the kind of situation that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned. Therefore, we all share the credit for that.