Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I will happily look into that, and I share my hon. Friend’s view that that is entirely inappropriate marketing.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

When does the Minister expect the review to be concluded, and will he consider giving police officers and trading standards officers more powers so that they can put an immediate stop on a new substance and put the onus on nefarious traders to prove that it is a hair product, plant food or whatever nonsense they call it?

[Norman Baker]

We have a quick response already—faster than nearly every other country in the European Union—but I agree that we need to look further at that. The review is under way, as I mentioned, and will be concluded in the summer, coterminously with the international comparator study that my predecessor started, so we will also be able to examine how other countries are dealing with the challenge of new psychoactive substances.

Psychoactive Substances

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that information. Of course, his knowledge of European matters is second to none in this House—[Interruption.] I did not say whether or not I approved of it.

The proposed regulation has features that might be appropriate if harmonisation of a legitimate internal market was genuinely required, but when applied to the control of these substances by member states, the proposal greatly exceeds any action required at EU level and thus does not comply with the principle of subsidiarity. For those few psychoactive substances that have legitimate uses, which amount to fewer than 2% of the more than 300 substances identified by the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction since 2005, our framework is already flexible enough to place controls on those substances to restrict recreational use without hindering genuine use in industry.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister believe that the European Commission’s impact assessment is mistaken? It states that member states would be able to apply national measures before the introduction of any EU-level measures and go further than what is foreseen by EU measures. It suggests that the UK would not be fettered. He clearly disagrees. Why?

[Norman Baker]

I do not think that is correct. Certainly, with regard to those substances classified as severe, with the top rank of measures, we would not be able to countermand the EU description applied to the substance unless the European Commission agreed to do so on application from the member state, so I do not think that is correct.

Violence against Women and Girls

Lord Walney Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). This morning, I was not intending to speak—not because I was disinterested or uninterested, but because it seemed to me appropriate that this debate should be led by women. I have, however, been inspired by the clarity, compassion, cross-party consensus and expressions of support for the importance of this debate. My decision to speak was also provoked by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who is not in his place. I share with him a great interest in horseracing and I have a great affection for him. I thought he made some good points, but I profoundly disagree with him on one or two central points.

I have rearranged the day in order to speak up for many of my hon. Friends whose absence should not be misconstrued as lack of interest in this important subject. I want to put on record my personal commitment to this issue; I also want to speak on behalf of women and girls in my constituency and elsewhere who perhaps fear that men are not listening, and to speak up for a modern, compassionate, progressive conservative strain of thinking, which takes this issue very seriously and applauds the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary for their leadership on it.

It seemed to me that the central point made my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley was to insist on an equality of treatment and to deny the need for any gender-based policy approach. That denies something very fundamental: that men and women are different and, in respect of sexual and physical violence, are not equal.

Around the world—here, too, but especially in the developing world—we are witnessing a shaming prevalence of violence against women and girls, which we have a duty to tackle. I do not pretend to be an expert, but one does not need to be an expert to see the urgency of the problem. If we look around the world, we can see that the emancipation of women and the education of girls has been a profound force for good in our society and in human progress. On the subject of the education of girls, I know from my own area of science that we have a huge problem and a huge challenge in Britain to ensure that more of our girls are educated in a way that allows them to take part in the great opportunities of the modern economy.

Around the world, too, we have a huge problem of sexual violence, which has been a long-standing part of too many conflicts. We heard earlier from those more eloquent than me about the problems of genital mutilation, forced marriages, sexual slavery and the human trafficking of boys and girls. We are all mindful, too, of the appalling story of gang rape in India, which I think has triggered huge public interest and has fired people’s sense of moral outrage. In a world whose economic globalisation we celebrate day on day, we all face a challenge to take responsibility for other impacts of globalisation that are perhaps less visibly, immediately or directly seen as our responsibility. We need to take both those sides of globalisation together.

My main point, however, is that we have a serious problem here in the UK. In recent decades, we have seen an epidemic of sexual and violent crime, the casualisation of media attitudes to sex and violence, an explosion of pornography, and in recent years casual online sexualisation and prostitution and huge problems relating to stalking and even classroom abuse, as we heard in the eloquent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison). It is the casualness of all this that is worth highlighting. Such things are not any more considered by our media or our commentariat to be serious crimes. That, I think, is the most serious crime of all.

We should all be shamed that London has become a global centre of human trafficking and sexual exploitation. Far from this being, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley suggested, a distraction from the serious business of Government, I suggest that it is a vital and topical issue that affects more than half of our population.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for his eloquent speech, reminding us all that not every male member of the Conservative party is blinkered or bonkers on this subject. Does he share with me the hope that better health and sex education in school can help prevent the real blight of sexting? As a Member of Parliament and as a parent, I must confess that, like others, I am only just beginning to understand the gravity of that situation.

[George Freeman]

I agree. The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point, which I feel personally, too, as the father of an 11-year-old daughter. I also think, however, that as a Parliament and a Government we need to be brave enough to realise that advice on sex must be put within some kind of moral framework. We need to be brave enough to acknowledge that young children require of us some guidance about what is right and wrong. Difficult territory though it is, there is no excuse for simply suggesting that there is no sense of appropriate conduct that we should be conveying.

This is a vital and topical issue which affects more than half our population, and it is an issue of global and local significance. I believe that our generation in this great institution must address it, and that we all have a duty to take it seriously. As I said earlier, I am the father of an 11-year-old daughter, but I also speak as the husband of a wife and as the son of a mother. We are all, in one way or another, linked to this issue, and, as a compassionate Conservative, I am proud that this generation, and this Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, have provided such leadership on it. The Prime Minister said recently:

“I want to see an end to violence against women and girls in all its forms. I’m proud to add my voice to all those who stand up to oppose it. Too often these horrific crimes have gone unpunished. We want this to change and that is why we have criminalised forced marriage, widened the definition of domestic violence and made stalking illegal.”

I believe that, as a result of cross-party consensus, our generation may be able to look back on what we have achieved and be proud of it. I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on arranging the debate, which, given its significance, I should have preferred to take place on a Monday rather than a Thursday. I also congratulate the sponsors of the motion, and those who are speaking about this important topic this afternoon.

Abu Qatada

Lord Walney Excerpts

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. In view of the intense interest in this subject on both sides of the House, I have allowed the urgent question exchanges to run longer than is customary. I am happy to try to accommodate remaining colleagues, but I appeal now for extreme brevity.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I suggest that if the Home Secretary wants to avoid being asked the same question again and again, she might answer it at the first time of asking? She has repeatedly said she is clear that the deadline was 16 April. She has not said, however, whether she was made aware that there could be uncertainty about that in the European Court. Was she made aware of that?

[Mrs May]

The deadline was 16 April. The European Court is the only arbiter. Indeed, it is not the European Court itself, but the panel of the Grand Chamber, which is the only arbiter of the deadline issue.

Hillsborough Disaster

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is great to follow such an impassioned account of football fans’ experience and the beautiful game from my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). May I also say what an honour it is to sit next to my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), who made a truly extraordinary speech? I know that we are resolutely not to pay any attention or refer to anything that happens in the Gallery, Mr Speaker—I do not know whether you will strike me down or whether this will merely be struck from the record—but seeing the families and friends of the 96 break into spontaneous applause was quite something. She is a true red and a credit to Merseyside and her team.

It is an honour to be in the House for this debate. It feels like the House of Commons truly has risen to the occasion, bearing in mind the gravity of the responsibility placed on us by the amazing, tenacious and indefatigable campaign from so many seeking justice for the 96 and the truth about what happened on that awful day. I did not intend to speak in this debate, but my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South suggested that I did. Like many football fans who are Members of Parliament, I look at the tragedy and the way in which the people of Liverpool and the families affected have struggled with this day after day for 22 years and think that it is not my place to speak. My hon. Friend said, and I hope she is right, that football fans across the country should say how solidly we stand behind the people of Liverpool and Liverpool fans in demanding justice and full disclosure after so long.

This is not just about football fans. What happened is an injustice and anybody who wants to see serious injustices exposed, whether they are football fans or not, is behind the call for full disclosure. I know how welcome that is. As has been made clear in the many extraordinary contributions today, the fact that the Home Secretary has come to the House to confirm that she will make the Government documents available to the panel in their entirety and unredacted is very welcome.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

My hon. Friend has rightly said that this campaign touches everyone who seeks justice. A group of my constituents have a particular sense of empathy and solidarity with the families of the 96—the Bloody Sunday families, who have developed a very strong bond with those families. In a different way, they can empathise with exactly what families suffer whenever they have to struggle against indifference, injustice and insult and whenever survivors have to endure calumny and are asked by the powers that be, in the media and elsewhere, to carry some of the blame of that day. This issue touches many people, and the families of the 96 have all our hearts.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock]

My hon. Friend speaks eloquently and his words will resonate with the families and the many thousands who are watching the debate. The kind of resolution that came after so long in the Bloody Sunday inquiry is what everyone here in the House and the many people watching want to see. They want similar closure through access to the full documentation about what happened on the day of the Hillsborough tragedy.

As has been heard today, every football fan knows where they were on that fateful day. I think I am the third Sheffield Wednesday fan among Members to speak today, and I am delighted to follow such excellent and moving contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts). I was a 10-year-old boy at the time of that semi-final, and I note that my dad was serving on Sheffield city council with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East. On that day I was playing football in the garden of my friend who was a Liverpool fan, and I remember the opening reports talking of a riot having occurred. Quite quickly, we got a different picture, but it was striking and it has stayed with me all this time that there was talk about a riot because that was the assumption—that that was what must have happened and caused the disturbance and the spilling over of people.

One of the most powerful speeches I have heard in this place or elsewhere was that of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), who put so well how that initial misunderstanding was immediately followed by a campaign of mistruths and lies. Even now, we are still seeking the full truth and the documents that will set out why ambulances were refused entry to the ground. We want to find out what happened with the failings in safety procedures and why Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate. It is good to hear that my club, Sheffield Wednesday, is co-operating fully and I hope that it operates a policy of full disclosure—as should all relevant organisations, whether or not they are covered by the Freedom of Information Act. I hope that all concerned will make available absolutely everything that is required to allow the panel and the families to see exactly what happened.

As 10-year-olds, we are mad about our teams. We are proud of anything that our teams do; it does not matter whether they are any good, which, increasingly, with the fate of Sheffield Wednesday, is probably a good thing. A generation of Wednesday fans and I have grown up with the ground that they love being infamous around the world as a symbol of tragedy. That is a strange thing for any football fan to come to terms with. As young boys, we tried to understand and assimilate the grief that we saw from the football fans around us.

I grew up as a season-ticket holder on the south stand for most of the time and, latterly, on the Kop, sitting next to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East. I hope that the annual visit of Liverpool FC, which, obviously, does not happen any more, will return one day. Annual tributes were paid at the Leppings Lane end. The fact that part of the ground will always be synonymous with tragedy is absolutely right, given the gravity of what happened there, which profoundly affected a generation of fans.

It is worth briefly reflecting on the change that has happened in football, largely as a result of the tragedy. Let us remember that the Football Spectators Act 1989 would have required compulsory identity cards and was only repealed as a result of Hillsborough. There have been so many vivid recollections of the horror of that day, which people who were there experienced and others saw on their TV screens. We remember the spikes at Hillsborough in the Leppings Lane end and across the country. It is worth reflecting on just how different the game is now, the improvements that have been made and the change in attitude, which so many hon. Members have talked about today and which was abhorrent at the time. It is absolutely right that we have been able to move on from those days.

Liverpool FC is important in Barrow and Furness, the constituency that I represent. In Barrow, everyone is a Barrow soccer fan. We are in the conference. People tend to have a second team as well, and there are loads of scousers who go down to Anfield nearly every other week—nearly as many reds as go down to Old Trafford, but that is the case wherever we go. One of Liverpool’s greatest captains, Emlyn Hughes, was a Barrow lad. He was eventually signed in 1964 by Blackpool, Barrow having passed up the chance to sign him. There is a statue of him in pride of place in Barrow, and he was, of course, at the game in 1989, so I want to end with a simple tribute that was left, along with red roses, at the Emlyn Hughes statue in Barrow on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the tragedy. Two people who did not give their names wrote a simple note saying:

“In memory of the 96 who lost their lives at Hillsborough on 15 April 1989 from two who were spared that day in the Leppings Lane End. You’ll never walk alone.”

Metropolitan Police Service

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I am not aware that there was a Guardian dossier. There was information that was generally available to the public, as I understand it. There is an issue here about the role of the Home Office that Opposition Members sometimes fail to grasp. It is not the job of politicians to tell the police who to investigate or arrest. It would be a very sorry day for our police and our democracy if we ever went down that road.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Did the Home Secretary raise any concerns to anyone about bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of Government and, if not, does she now regret that failure to speak up?

[Mrs May]

I have made clear the difference between the Metropolitan police and the Government. The Prime Minister has answered the point about Andy Coulson. He did that last week and he made it absolutely clear that he gave Andy Coulson a second chance. That did not work out and Andy Coulson resigned again.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Thomas Docherty to ask the first question. He is not here.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

2. What her policy is on the use of CCTV cameras.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

21. What her policy is on the use of CCTV cameras.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Brokenshire]

Thank you for that clarification, Mr Speaker.

The Government recognise the importance of CCTV in preventing and detecting crime, and support its use by communities. The Government also acknowledge that continued use of CCTV requires the support of the public and public confidence that systems are being used appropriately. Accordingly, we intend to introduce a code of practice for surveillance cameras and appoint a surveillance camera commissioner.

[John Woodcock]

May I respectfully suggest that the Minister should visit the Furness area, so that he can see for himself the impact such cameras make in reducing crime, and then inform the House why 11 pieces of red tape have to be gone through before anyone can even consider installing fresh ones?

[James Brokenshire]

As I have said, I welcome the use of CCTV. It can be important in preventing and detecting crime, and I am certainly willing to discuss the issue further outside the Chamber and to talk about the impact CCTV is clearly making in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I would also say to him, however, that when his party was in government it published a CCTV strategy that included 44 separate recommendations—including that a body with responsibility for the governance of the use of CCTV in this country should be established—so quite a lot of regulation was put in place by his own Government.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Lynne Featherstone]

I thank my hon. Friend. I congratulate Mumsnet on its very admirable campaign on the sexualisation of children. Perhaps one of the best ways forward is to get corporations to sign up and develop their own responsibility. However, I understand from my colleague at the Department for Education that it will look at whatever is necessary, be it regulation or simple persuasion.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

5. What assessment her Department has made of potential links between police officer numbers and levels of crime.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

There is no simple link between police numbers and crime—[Interruption.] What matters is how officers are deployed. Our aim is to reduce costs and bureaucracy to ensure that resources can be directed to the front line.

[John Woodcock]

Does the Minister understand how quickly he has seemed so completely out of touch with the reality on the ground? Every community up and down the nation will understand that more police on the street make people feel safer and that it has contributed to a lowering of crime over the past decade. Will he take this opportunity to retract his statement?

[Nick Herbert]

Surely the test of an effective police force is what we are doing with those officers. The report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman has read, pointed out that only 11% of a police force’s strength is visible and available at any one time. That number is too low. There is a problem with the bureaucracy that the previous Government created and that we have to deal with.

Controls on Legal Highs

Lord Walney Excerpts

Thursday 9th September 2010 Westminster Hall

[James Brokenshire]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. In circumstances in which legislation subsequently changes, the criminal sanction still stands. That is why we have focused on the supply and public harm issues, rather than creating a possession offence.

If the ACMD were subsequently to determine that a drug under the temporary classification was not to move into a permanent classification, and someone had been convicted after an offence had been identified and a prosecution secured, that offence would still stand. That underlines the need for the protocol with the ACMD, which I have mentioned, allowing us to seek advice from it on the use of the temporary ban in the first place. That may be done on a more fast-track basis, but certain tenets need to be applied to that process, because the intention in using the temporary ban is not, as I have said, to circumvent the existing system but to use it. Issues to do with mephedrone and other legal highs have highlighted the potential need to act quickly, from a public harm perspective, and that is the focus of our intent.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister not agree that it would be strange if subsequent medical advice changed our understanding of a drug, and we had to say to a group of people who had deliberately circumvented the law—and not on the basis that they thought that there was a moral right to obtain this harmless drug—“Actually, it’s fine, you can get compensation for whatever penalties we imposed on you”?

[James Brokenshire]

The relevant point here concerning legal highs is that the ACMD flagged up to the Government its concern about mephedrone, pointing out that there was a problem it needed to do further work on to reach a final conclusion. It was so concerned that it was almost advising the Government to take preventive steps. Through this mechanism we want to be able to act, from a public harm and a warning perspective, to ensure that those issues are dealt with swiftly and quickly. In other words, we want to try to reduce the risk of harm occurring. That is the emphasis and intention behind the temporary banning power, and it is consistent with the approach taken in other legislation: that if the law is subsequently changed, pre-existing offences that may have been incurred still subsist.

I should like to mention Ivory Wave, which is causing a number of hon. Members significant concern and has been mentioned in the press and the media. I want to deal with certain reports associating the use of the so-called legal high-branded product Ivory Wave with a number of localised accident and emergency presentations in the last few weeks. Health alerts have been issued by the chief medical officers for England and Wales and Scotland, and the FRANK service was updated to highlight the risks that we are currently aware of that are associated with Ivory Wave. We are actively monitoring the situation. My Department has received early information from the Scottish Crime and Drugs Enforcement Agency that the latest Ivory Wave products associated with the admissions in Lothian may contain a non-controlled amphetamine-type stimulant, Desoxypipradrol, or 2-DPMP. Confirmation from forensic providers and details of other sampling is awaited.

In Edinburgh, Lothian and Borders police, in partnership with the City of Edinburgh public health authorities, have visited a number of head shops, which has led to the removal of Ivory Wave products from sale. Hampshire police have also conducted a joint operation with trading standards, raiding two head shops on the Isle of Wight, resulting in the seizure of large quantities of legal highs and the arrest of two individuals for suspected supply of controlled drugs. In the light of that information, earlier this week I spoke to the chair of ACMD, Professor Les Iversen, and asked the council to keep a close interest in developments here and provide advice as necessary. I have instructed my officials to share with the ACMD information that we have and provide regular updates.

There were previous indications that the so-called legal high Ivory Wave had contained certain controlled drugs. Different supplies of Ivory Wave using that brand name contain different drugs, some of which may already be controlled drugs, hence our seeking further information on the forensics and the nature of the drugs seized under that branding.

We are dealing with this emerging and dynamic problem of legal highs, including BZP, synthetic cannabinoids, mephedrone and the latest so-called legal high. Although effective legislation is integral to our response to protect the public—particularly the health of our young people—from the harms of the drugs, there is no easy fix. We are working closely with the ACMD out of a shared concern about these new psychoactive substances. As well as advice on individual drugs, our response will also be informed by the advisory council’s thematic work on legal highs. That response must be wide-ranging, encompassing all the strands that will reduce both demand and supply. But let me say clearly to anyone tempted to try a legal high that just because something is advertised as legal does not mean it is safe—and it may not even be legal.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome this debate and many of the steps that the new Government are taking, which follow the previous Administration’s effective and determined approach to tackling this difficult problem. I am glad to have the chance to speak in this debate, because there is a problem with the way we discuss so-called legal highs. Perhaps we need to find a better way of branding such drugs, which cause a great deal of harm to individuals and communities.

A number of issues that the Minister mentioned were also big issues in Barrow. I want briefly to mention a number of matters. First, he made an interesting point about the responsibility of traders to act in a way that minimises the harm to which young people can be subjected. I am glad that he gave an example of traders acting responsibly. However, I have to say that in Barrow, my personal experience prior to the election was not the same: local shops refused to cease stocking mephedrone before the temporary ban was put in place. Such an example calls into question whether the new powers that the Minister is suggesting, which are welcome, will go far enough in the important interim period that he rightly identified—in which a drug becomes controversial and notorious and the process to put a temporary ban in placed is started, and during which sales can increase.

The point made about the legality of so-called legal high drugs before they are in the public domain is apposite. We knew from personal experience—I should say that that this is not my personal experience—in Barrow of a substance called Shake ‘n’ Vac: a repackaging of mephedrone, which received a lot of attention during the mephedrone debate. That substance was sold in quantities of 1 gram for £15, purportedly as carpet cleaner, with the words, “Not for human consumption” written on it. It was laughable to suggest that the traders in question might believe that it was carpet cleaner, and it was clear that they did not. Is there not a way of immediately enforcing current law if it is sufficient to stop such products being mis-sold? If that is not possible under the current law, should it not be tightened? Could there not be a power to place an immediate suspension on suspicious substances, even before a temporary ban? If that power were used wrongly, traders could seek financial recompense, but in cases that seem as clear-cut as those experienced in my area, the chances of success would be slight.

[Tom Brake]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but does he foresee difficulties if someone sells Shake ‘n’ Vac—the real thing that goes into vacuum cleaners—and advertises it at £15 a gram? They would be selling a product at a super-inflated price.

[John Woodcock]

I take the theoretical point, but I am not sure whether, in the real world, one would come remotely close to such circumstances. Frankly, if my proposal catches some rogue traders who are prepared to dupe people, we could probably live with that. The level of damage that is being perpetrated and the risks to which young people are being exposed mean that we must make decisions that fall within the bounds of common sense, and I believe that they would be readily accepted. I am interested to hear more about what the Government can do.

My final point concerns agreement on how important it is to clamp down on this malicious and immoral practice. Can the Minister guarantee that, given the severe budget constraints on the police and the whole of Government, this work will not suffer in the months and years ahead?

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

I welcome you to the debate, Mr Davies. This is the first debate in which you have been in the Chair, and the first in which I have participated under your chairmanship. I thank the Minister for initiating the debate. The problem of legal highs activates communities, and that was certainly my experience when a shop in my constituency, suitably called Your High, opened round the corner from a primary school and down the road from a secondary school. I am pleased that it has since shut, but it generated a lot of concern in the community, so it is right that we are debating the matter here.

I was interested and pleased to hear the Minister refer to Ivory Wave, which is the current so-called legal high, and I agree with the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that we should find another phrase. Perhaps “soon-to-be illegal highs” might be appropriate. I was interested to hear the Minister refer to mephedrone but not meow meow. I understand from my street adviser, Grant Sibley, that only politicians and journalists refer to meow meow, and that mephedrone is the appropriate word.

This debate is focused on legal highs, but hon. Members will be aware that a wider drugs consultation is under way that looks at that issue, for which the closing date is 30 September. I hope that it will be possible for us, not now, but over the coming months and years, to have a more open and frank discussion about tackling drugs. All hon. Members here today know that the subject is difficult for politicians to address, because sometimes the most effective solutions as suggested by the evidence may not be politically acceptable, but we must address the problem in an evidence-based way. When people such as the former president of the Royal College of Physicians says that a blanket ban is not necessarily the most effective way of tackling the drugs issue, we must consider that and assess the implications, if any, for Government policy. We must find a way of creating space in which it is safe for politicians to debate these matters and to rely on what evidence-based solutions might recommend.

I was intrigued, interested and pleased that the Government are considering the approach to drugs adopted by the Portuguese and Spanish Governments. I see the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) smiling, and I am sure that he will refer to Liberal Democrats being soft on drugs—that is a standard Labour phrase—but the fact is that Spain and Portugal have adopted a different approach towards personal possession. It is interesting that the all-party consensus in those countries about what might have been expected to be the consequences of such an approach did not transpire when that policy was implemented. I am not advocating that policy, but I am advocating that we should be allowed to debate it, analyse it and come to our own conclusions without being buffeted around by some of the media.

I shall focus more narrowly on legal highs. I agree that we need a new name, and perhaps the Minister will provide us with a definition of a legal high, if we are to continue to use that phrase. He rightly identified the need to educate people on the dangers associated with so-called legal highs, and it is clear, regrettably, that whatever is being done at the moment is not sufficient. As and when a legal high is found to be a toxic substance and becomes illegal, the producers simply move on to another product, a hybrid product, or simply rename the product. Unfortunately, people then go out and buy it. It is strange, but I suspect that some of the people who buy such products examine the list of ingredients for E numbers in products bought from supermarkets. They may avoid such products, but be happy to buy something with zero knowledge of what may be in it. It may contain herbal or chemical ingredients that may be toxic and are probably illegal, yet they buy it. Whatever we are doing educationally, it is not having the impact that it should. I agree that parents have a role to play, but in some families the matter is not discussed, so there is also a role for schools, which should perhaps include other drugs such as alcohol and be more proactive in addressing that concern.

I shall focus specifically on legal highs. The briefing that was prepared for this debate refers to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, but there is also the Medicines Act 1968. The Medicines Act can be used when something is said to have a physiological effect or a potentially harmful effect on the body, and we might be able to use it as well as, or instead of, the Misuse of Drugs Act to deal with some of these products. If so, will the Minister tell us whether there would be any advantages to doing that and what they might be?

I have some further specific questions. The Minister has responded on the issue of the temporary ban, and I understand his point. If we have a temporary ban—my colleagues and I support such a move—there is a very small possibility that a substance that is subject to such a ban will subsequently be found to be totally harmless. A person might be prosecuted and possibly found guilty and sent to prison, but we might subsequently find that the reason for doing that no longer exists. As the Minister said, it is essential that the ACMD’s protocol is clear and sufficiently robust. None of us would want a temporary ban to be imposed, only for the substance subsequently to turn out to be a perfectly harmless herbal product. We need to be confident that the protocol stands up.

[John Woodcock]

These people know what the law is when it is put in place, but they choose to break it. By the hon. Gentleman’s logic, if the advisory council came back at some point and said that cocaine was not actually that harmful after all, everyone who had been convicted of cocaine possession or distribution would be told, “It’s okay. You can come out.” Is that what he is suggesting?

[Tom Brake]

Fortunately, I am 101% certain that no one will come back and say that cocaine is harmless—if anything is certain in a drugs debate, it is that. All that I ask the hon. Gentleman to accept is that someone might think, perhaps quite rightly, that there is evidence that a herbal product is harmful, with the result that a temporary ban is imposed, but the product might subsequently prove not to be harmful. That is all that I am flagging up as an issue. All that I am saying is that we must make sure that the protocol is tough and ensures that such things do not happen.

Once the temporary ban has been imposed, what time scale would the Minister expect the advisory council to use in implementing the protocol? Would there be a maximum time frame in which a response would be required? Furthermore, will the advisory council have to take into account a balance-of-probabilities consideration at any point when determining whether something is harmful? Any clarity that the Minister could give us on that would be gratefully received.

The final issue that I want to mention is the impact of khat. The Home Office online report highlighted the concerns about khat. I do not know whether it referred to medical problems, but, interestingly, the most commonly cited social problems related more to

“tensions arising in response to a family member spending time and money”

on the product, than to any other consideration. Apparently, the link between the use of this particular herbal stimulant and offending was minimal. I would like to hear whether the Minister has more up-to-date information on the issue and whether the Department is considering it. I have certainly been lobbied by a local councillor who has concerns about the use of khat in their area. Will the Minister tell us, although perhaps not now, what progress is being made on the issue?

To conclude, we need to respond to legal, or soon-to-be illegal, highs, and I was happy to support the previous Government when they introduced the mephedrone ban. We need to be geared up to respond to these issues quickly, but I hope that we can also debate them more widely. In that way, we can make sure that whatever we do is the most effective way to tackle the crime and health consequences associated with drug use.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

I apologise for arriving late at this important debate. It is a pleasure to have my first opportunity to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Davies.

First, I want to acknowledge—this has probably been acknowledged before in one form or another—what a difference an election makes. In a short time, the Government have shown a firm lead on the issue of legal highs. Not so long ago—back in March—Professor Nutt, the former chairman of the ACMD, said of legal highs that

“it is virtually impossible to police the problem…the crime and justice side of things would get out of control. The police would spend their whole lives just arresting teenagers with mephedrone in their pockets”.

That defeatist attitude has been kicked into touch by a very sensible approach to mephedrone.

[John Woodcock]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Burrowes]

In a moment. I concede that the previous Government eventually took action in relation to mephedrone on 17 April, but that was too little, too late.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman made some concession after I signalled that I wanted to intervene. If he wants to make partisan points, he needs to do slightly better. I hope that he agrees that this is a really difficult problem. We should welcome the fact that the previous Government acted very quickly in dealing with the difficult advice that it got from the advisory council, just as we welcome the fact that the new Government are taking further action.

[Mr Burrowes]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. If he gives me the opportunity, I will reflect on the fact that it is not straightforward properly to legislate and carry out enforcement in this area. Nevertheless, we must recognise that by the time mephedrone was finally banned on 17 April, it was estimated to be the UK’s fourth most popular club drug and was used quite broadly, rather than by just a stereotypical demographic. It was sold by a new type of dealer. London was the world’s mephedrone capital and host to 53% of worldwide outlets. Mephedrone was implicated in 18 deaths in England and seven in Scotland. Given those figures, I repeat that the ban came too late.

None the less, I welcome the steps taken by the previous Government to ban mephedrone, and I welcome those taken by the coalition Government properly to put in place ways to help us to act quickly to tackle legal high drugs. The issue is that we should be able to move quickly to deal not just with mephedrone, but with the new drugs on the market. These drugs are readily accessible at the press of a mouse button, and they are coming on to the streets of the capital and the country. We need to look at how we can deal with the issue properly, and the Government have proposed ways to do that.

I want briefly to raise another issue. We must look overseas at the models that other countries are using to deal with the issue, which is obviously not just a domestic, but an international one. The context is the fact that when this country got to the point of banning mephedrone on 17 April, other countries, including European countries, did it more promptly. One need not go further than Ireland to see what is being done. I want to raise Ireland as an example, so that the Minister can take the opportunity to respond and consider whether its approach would be a way forward for this country.

On 11 May, Ireland’s Minister for Health and Children announced an immediate criminal ban, publishing a full list of legal high substances that were subject to a Government order and that were to be banned, as well as a criminal ban on a list of head shop products, and the prosecution of head shops themselves. Is there an opportunity to consider that example or any other examples in this country? As well as trying to deal with the substances and the ready access to them, and being able to respond quickly, Ireland dealt with another source of concern—the head shops that were springing up as an industry. That was dealt with on 11 May by the measure I have referred to, which led to the Government approving a crackdown on the operation of head shops.

The Criminal Justice (Psychoactive Substances) Act 2010 will further curb the threats posed by head shops and psychoactive substances. Under the new provisions, the sale or supply of substances that may not be specifically proscribed under Ireland’s Misuse of Drugs Act 1977, but which have psychoactive effects, would be a criminal offence. That is a much wider use of legislation to deal with new psychoactive substances coming on to the market, and will make it possible in Ireland to avoid the prolonged processes that we may well still be subject to. It would allow flexibility of approach in dealing with, and the mounting of prosecutions in relation to, the new psychoactive substances that are coming on to the market and causing such damage, particularly to young people.

I do not suggest that the Minister will be able to give a full response to that example, but it is worthy of consideration, not least because it comes from near neighbours with issues similar to ours. We may be able to learn from their example.

Phone Tapping

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 6th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

Conversations held by the Mayor of London are a matter not for the Government but for the Mayor.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Given the seriousness of these new allegations, many in this House and across the country will be surprised that the Home Secretary has not even shown a degree of concern about potential shortcomings in the police investigation. Is she really entirely satisfied that everything is as it should have been, or is she determined not to have a view?

[Mrs May]

This matter was looked into. It was looked into last year by the hon. Gentleman’s right hon. Friend, the then Home Secretary. The then Government decided that no further action should be taken.