National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That the draft Order laid before the House on 1 March be approved. 11th Report, Session 2009-10, from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 13 July.
National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010
Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has now considered the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010.
Relevant document: 12th Report, Session 2009-10, from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Grand Committee does report to the House that it has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010. For ease, I shall henceforth refer to this order as the housing LCO. This is the first LCO that I have spoken to in this House. It is a particular pleasure to deal with devolution issues that relate to Wales after many years of being more familiar with devolution issues that relate to Scotland.
This draft housing LCO was approved by the National Assembly on 24 February. The previous Government laid the draft LCO before Parliament in March. For whatever reason, no time was found to debate the LCO in either House before the general election. I am pleased that the coalition Government committed to take forward the housing LCO in our programme for government, which is what we are doing. The draft LCO was approved by the other place on 7 July, having been debated in Committee on 5 July, and it comes before this Grand Committee today for debate only two months after the coalition Government took office.
Noble Lords may be aware of the discussions that have taken place between the coalition Government and the Welsh Assembly Government in relation to the scope of this LCO. I shall address that issue immediately. The coalition Government have been concerned that this LCO devolves legislative competence that the Assembly would not necessarily need. The Assembly Government are committed to seeking legislative competence to suspend the right to buy in areas of housing pressure. However, competence in the LCO covers disposals of social housing generally, including abolition of the right to buy. Indeed, as I understand the situation, when an LCO on this issue was first proposed in 2008, the Welsh Affairs Committee in the other place recommended that it should not proceed while it included the ability to abolish the right to buy. We are grateful indeed for the reassurances given by the Welsh Assembly Government that they are fully committed to the right to buy scheme and have no intention whatsoever to abolish it.
The coalition Government are similarly grateful for a further reassurance from the Assembly Government not to seek powers to usurp the views of local people and dictate the location of Gypsy and Traveller sites. Given these assurances, and our commitment to progress this order through Parliament before the Summer Recess, I am pleased to support this LCO today.
Lord Rowlands
I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but as this is a vital point perhaps we might clear it up straightaway. He says that an assurance has been given, and I am sure that that is true, but paragraph 7.23 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that,
“legislative competence would enable the Assembly, if it so wished, to replace the current Right to Buy scheme with improved and updated schemes to assist home ownership”.
That suggests that the Assembly might abolish the scheme but replace it with something else. Does the present competence order still allow the Assembly to do such a thing?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My understanding is that it does, although equally I understand that it is the intention—if only that of the present Welsh Assembly Government, which would not bind their successors—to use this to suspend the right to buy in areas of housing pressure. I understand, on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, that they could do what the Explanatory Memorandum suggests.
The agreement to take forward this LCO, following three years of some frustration and procedural hurdles, demonstrates the success of a relationship of mutual respect and collaboration between Westminster and Cardiff. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that, in the new politics of this new era, mature attitudes of co-operation and compromise are signs of strength, not of weakness.
I turn to the detailed content of the draft order. The order will devolve legislative competence in relation to many aspects of housing policy, enabling the Welsh Assembly Government to propose legislation to implement their new housing strategy Improving Lives and Communities: Homes in Wales. The strategy is to be implemented through an action plan and it is my understanding that in some areas this will require primary legislation. I hope that this LCO will facilitate the implementation of the strategy. Indeed, I understand that earlier today the First Minister announced the Welsh Assembly Government’s legislative programme for 2010-11. He announced plans to introduce a housing Measure, making use of the legislative competence devolved to the National Assembly via this LCO, subject to its being passed and subsequently approved by the Privy Council. As I think the First Minister indicated, it would allow for local authorities to apply to Welsh Assembly Government Ministers for the temporary suspension of the right to buy in areas of housing pressure, as well as increasing those Ministers’ intervention powers in relation to social housing.
The draft order is structured around two key themes: social housing and meeting the housing needs of vulnerable people. The LCO would also devolve competence in relation to the amount of council tax charged on second homes. Specifically, it will insert seven new matters, Matters 11.2 to 11.8, into Field 11, the housing field, of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. It will also insert one matter, Matter 12.18, into Field 12, the local government field.
Taken together, Matters 11.2 and 11.3 would allow the Assembly to legislate to strengthen powers of early intervention in failing housing associations and modify the approach taken to allocations. Matter 11.4 would allow the Assembly to legislate to standardise local authority and housing association tenancy agreements, thereby removing an impediment to stock transfer. Matter 11.5 covers the disposal of land held or used for social housing. The One Wales agreement includes the commitment to,
“draw down legislative power … in order to suspend the Right to Buy in areas of housing pressure”.
The Assembly Government want temporarily to suspend the scheme in specific local circumstances to address local difficulties. As I have said, Assembly Government Ministers have made it clear that they have no intention of abolishing the right to buy in Wales.
Matter 11.6 covers housing-related support to those who need help to occupy their homes. Matter 11.7 is about provisions by local authorities of caravan sites for Gypsies and Travellers. The Assembly Government intend to propose legislation compelling local authorities to provide sites for the accommodation of Gypsies and Travellers when a need is clearly identified. The coalition Government are grateful to the Assembly Government for their assurance that they will not seek routinely to dictate to local authorities the location of these Gypsy and Traveller sites.
Lord Jones
My Lords, I support this order and wish the Wales Assembly well when it receives, operates and exploits it. Housing is the basic provision for any family life and I have no doubt that the Wales Assembly will always bear that in mind. The sum total of happiness will be advanced somewhat by the fact that these powers are coming nearer home for the people of Wales. The order will be operated by an Assembly that really believes in it.
I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, make his speech. He will not mind my saying that it was a Methodist speech, perhaps in more than three parts just slightly so. I always listen with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy. Nobody has served Wales longer than he has or with more dedication. He has great experience, which one hears in his observations on a matter such as this. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord the Minister on his appointment to his office. I saw his entry to the other place, I saw him leave it and I have seen him come back. He has made a strong beginning. I also offer most sincere congratulations to my noble friend on the Front Bench. Nobody knows Wales better than she. She knows Wales like the back of her hand and has served it with great compassion, conscientiousness and commitment. We will all wish her well on the Front Bench in her duties.
After the last general election in Wales, I took the trouble to go to the opening of the Wales Assembly by our sovereign Her Majesty the Queen. She was accompanied by the Consort, the Duke, and by the heir, the Prince of Wales—and he by the Duchess of Cornwall. Having been present in the Chamber looking down on the Royal Family, facing the Government of Wales and the Assembly, I thought that I was seeing some history. The conclusion that I draw from that moment is that the Welsh Assembly is for ever. It is an Assembly of stability and great potential. In any consideration of the order, one has the understanding of where it is going and how it will be best used to the advantage of the people of Wales.
It occurred to me that, having been present at that historic moment for the nation of Wales, I could not see how there would not be more legislative powers in time. I could see the status of the Assembly growing by the year. I could see its importance always advancing and it having more authority and power to raise more moneys, with its standing always growing. I saw the process as irreversible, but I asked myself, “Did the Assembly need to have more Members?”. I then asked myself, “Would this Parliament have fewer Members?”. I do not wish to debate that issue now—nor should I—but I suspect that our nation, Wales, is on track and that the British nation will see something approaching federalism in the decades ahead, whether that should be or not.
None of us, I suggest to the Committee, should be in ignorance of the consequences of what we are doing when we pass these orders for Wales. There is a consequence over and above the use of the order. I sometimes wonder whether Parliaments fully comprehend the consequences of the legislation that they make.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, this has been a positive and constructive debate. I start by thanking all the noble Lords and the noble Baroness for their kind words of welcome and congratulation. I consider it a privilege to be able to engage with noble Lords and, indeed, to re-establish some friendships and acquaintances from my time in the other place, particularly with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. Exactly 27 years ago this week—I am an anorak in this sort of thing—I served along with the noble Lord on my first Standing Committee in another place, which was considering the Petroleum Royalties (Relief) Bill. It certainly means a lot to me to be here and to engage with him again.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, suggested that I would, over time, get to realise that Welsh politics is different from Scottish politics. The learning curve has been very steep indeed but I had already appreciated that, although I am sure that there is still much more to learn. In fact, with the happy situation of belonging to a federal party along with my noble friends here, we have learnt from one another over a number of years how the body politic functions in different parts of our United Kingdom. I join the noble Lord, Lord Jones, in congratulating the noble Baroness on assuming Front-Bench duties. I rather suspect that there will be a number of occasions when we will be facing each other across the Dispatch Box, either in Grand Committee or in the Chamber, and I very much look forward to those encounters.
I welcome the fact that there has been broad agreement and support for the order. Perhaps I might respond to a number of the points raised. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, made a point about the timing of the laying of the order. She asked why my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary had apparently changed his position. We could always go into forensic detail about what happened when in the weeks of February and March. My understanding is that the order could have been laid before Parliament before the wash-up. It does not necessarily help us today to speculate on why that did not happen. The point is that, after a bit of a troubled history when another order fell foul of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, we have an order today that has commanded support.
National Assembly for Wales: Referendum
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Lord Livsey of Talgarth
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the referendum mentioned in the Queen’s Speech for the National Assembly for Wales to have primary legislative powers will be put to the people of Wales in October 2010.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I refer my noble friend to the Written Ministerial Statement made under my name on 15 June 2010. In that, I repeated a Written Ministerial Statement by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales in which she indicated that it had not been possible to lay a draft referendum order before Parliament by today. She further stated that our aim is for a referendum to take place before the end of the first quarter of next year.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth
My Lords, my noble and learned friend has made that statement on behalf of the Secretary of State. I am not entirely satisfied that we cannot have an October referendum, which was our wish, but I am glad to know that it will be in the first quarter of 2011. My noble and learned friend may be familiar with Edmund Burke’s famous remark that there is a point beyond which forbearance ends and tolerance ceases to be a virtue. While Liberal Democrats and devolutionists in all parties in Wales are reaching that point, we need an early referendum for primary legislative powers for the National Assembly for Wales. We face a constitutional obstacle course in Wales.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth
This is the question. Will my noble and learned friend ensure that there is a referendum poll well before next year’s Welsh Assembly elections in May?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I know from the time that my noble friend and I spent together in the other place that he is a very determined and doughty campaigner both in establishing the National Assembly for Wales and, since then, in enhancing its powers. I make it clear that I am well aware of the importance that the Secretary of State for Wales attaches to this referendum taking place, implementing the coalition agreement. In her letter to the First Minister, she indicated that the date that the First Minister had indicated before the general election should not be considered until after the general election. That has meant that the consultation work on the question has only now begun and that there will be a further reference to the Electoral Commission for it to research and approve the question. Orders will have to be debated and approved in the Welsh National Assembly and both Houses of Parliament and submitted for approval by Her Majesty in Council. Thereafter, the Electoral Commission has indicated that the statutory period of 10 weeks is the minimum that it believes necessary to allow for all the processes required leading up to polling day. With the best will in the world, it was not possible to do that by October, but we have made the commitment that we wish that to happen by the end of the first quarter of next year.
Lord Morris of Aberavon
My Lords, the Conservative Party in Wales has a long record of opposing any Welsh constitutional advance, whether it be the setting up of the Welsh Office or a devolved Assembly. Has it now abandoned this posture and will it now campaign wholeheartedly for more powers for the Welsh Assembly? If it has not, how do the coalition Government reconcile that stance with the Answer in the other place by the Minister for constitutional reform, Mr Clegg,
“Yes, the Government do support a yes vote”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/6/10; col. 41.]
in the referendum?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving me the opportunity to make it clear that my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister subsequently made it clear to the House of Commons that that was not the position. The Government will not have a particular view on the outcome of the referendum. Our coalition commitment is to ensure that the referendum takes place. The referendum is not the plaything of any one political party. It is for the people of Wales to decide and we will respect their decision.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
In so far as the people of Wales are concerned, does the noble and learned Lord accept that there is a deep conviction and desire in Wales for a referendum, and for that to be carried, making Part 4 a new constitution for the Welsh people?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I note that when the National Assembly for Wales voted on whether there should be a referendum under the Government of Wales Act, the vote was 53 to zero. I am sure that people on both sides of the argument were voting because they want a referendum, but it is not for me at this Dispatch Box to say what the outcome should be. I have no doubt that my noble friends and my friends in the Liberal Democrats in Wales will want me to take a particular view when I am campaigning, but, as I have indicated, the Government’s view is that we want the referendum to take place and the preparation for it to be as thorough as possible.
Lord Morgan
My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that the lack of urgency in his Answer is deeply disappointing to many of us? Peter Hain, the previous Secretary of State for Wales, endorsed a referendum in the autumn. It has been endorsed by every political party in Wales and the Jones Parry report made an unanswerable case for it. Why are the Government dragging their feet? Is this yet another fault line in the so-called coalition?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I wholly reject any allegation that the Government are dragging their feet. I quote from the letter from my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales to the First Minister:
“Your decision that the date and question should not be considered until after the General Election has meant that we have not yet submitted a question to the Electoral Commission, which has confirmed that it will need at least 10 weeks to carry out its assessment and then report”.
I hope that I indicated earlier to your Lordships’ House that the timeline is an extensive one. We want to ensure that this happens properly, and we do not want to take any risk that by taking short cuts we could open ourselves up to legal challenge. I believe that we are taking the proper steps in the right order.
Lord Crickhowell
My Lords, as one who, during the debate on the Government of Wales Bill, said that he would vote in favour of the move proposed in the referendum, I ask my noble and learned friend whether he thinks extraordinary the suggestion that the right honourable Peter Hain should be pressing us when in a major constitutional speech at Cardiff University last October he said that he did not think that the matter should be brought forward quickly—certainly not before 2011.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, having taken office I am discovering that there are many things that I am responsible for, but one of them is not to answer for Mr Peter Hain, thank goodness. I can assure the House that the Secretary of State attaches a huge priority to this. We are taking the steps as quickly as we can, and that is consistent with good governance.
Lord Richard
My Lords, one of the great problems that I have always had in my political life is my nasty, suspicious mind, particularly when it comes to assurances given six months in advance. Can we take it as genuinely firm that, unless there is a catastrophe, this referendum will be held in the first quarter of next year, with no “ifs” and no “buts”?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The noble Lord can take it as being as firm an assurance as any Minister could possibly give. There are ongoing discussions. It has been discussed by the Secretary of State with the Welsh First Minister and Deputy First Minister. There is co-operation between the respective Administrations that that should happen. I should add that the One Wales agreement of the coalition agreement in the National Assembly for Wales seeks a referendum before next year’s elections. As part of the respect agenda, we would try to honour that commitment.
Crime: Rape
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, rape is a crime of the utmost seriousness, and the Government are committed to ensuring that all agencies across the criminal justice system work together to bring offenders to justice. We are keen to find ways of improving the way in which offences of rape are investigated and prosecuted, and how victims of rape are treated. We are therefore carefully considering the recommendations made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, in her review of how rape complaints are handled by public authorities, which was published earlier this year.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I welcome the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General to his place on the Front Bench. As the shadow of the shadow of my former self, I look forward to questions with him. Bearing in mind the trenchant criticism of the provision in relation to anonymity that came from the judiciary, prosecutors and the police, do the Government intend to pursue that as an issue? Further, if they do, how will they deal with questions in relation to multiple offenders?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness for her kind words of welcome, which I appreciate very much. I pay tribute to work that she did in her high office of Attorney-General. In the short period that I was in the House, any dealings I had with her across the Chamber or in Committee were always conducted with great clarity and, particularly, great courtesy. As a law officer, I will do well if I aspire to the standards that she set.
Anonymity is an issue that has been around and debated over many years. Indeed, anonymity for defendants was the case between 1976 and 1988. The Select Committee on Home Affairs in the other place during the passage of the Sexual Offences Bill made a recommendation for anonymity in the period between arrest and charge. We are willing for this issue to be given a full airing. People with expertise should be able to present evidence on this. On the specific point that the noble and learned Baroness makes about multiple rapes, I have certainly seen arguments around this; they have been well aired, even in the past two or three weeks, in the other place. We would want more assurances and evidence that that is the case. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence. In the specific case of Worboys, which is often referred to, it was not necessarily the name that encouraged other women to come forward but the modus operandi of a particularly despicable and villainous crime.
Baroness Kingsmill
Will the Minister confirm that, whatever changes are made to the law in relation to the prosecution of rape, priority will be given to increasing the appallingly low level of convictions?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I can give the noble Baroness assurances on that. Our priority, which was shared with the previous Administration, is very much that those who are guilty of this particularly serious and heinous offence should be brought to justice and convicted. There are a number of ways in which that should be taken forward, not only with regard to the prosecution system but as regards the police and, indeed, reassurances which can be given to victims of rape who want to come forward. It is our objective to raise the conviction rate.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
My Lords, the Minister spoke of talking to experts. Does he accept that the greatest experts in this field are those who have been victims of rape? Will he ensure that their views are taken carefully into consideration and that he listens to the groups representing them?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am certainly prepared to give that assurance. Those people have a very regrettable but very real experience. It is because of the importance that we attach to the way in which we as a society deal with victims that the coalition Government are committed to trying our best to increase the number of rape crisis centres and to put those which exist on a more stable financial footing.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, evidence has shown that the two-tier offence arrangements that exist in New Zealand lead to far higher levels of successful prosecutions. Would the Government consider changing the law in the United Kingdom to mirror the arrangements in New Zealand?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I must confess that I am not overfamiliar with the law in New Zealand. However, as I indicated in an earlier answer, there is a concern, which I am sure is shared on all sides of your Lordships’ House, that we should do more. We ought to find ways to do more to raise the conviction rate. If there is relevant evidence from another jurisdiction that has many similarities to our own, we would be prepared to look at that.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
I congratulate my noble and learned friend on his appointment and wish him every success in it. Will he confirm that methods have been developed in recent years to make the procedures much more sympathetic to women victims, who perhaps have not been treated as well as they should have been in the past, and that every attempt will be made to make sure that they do not have to go through an ordeal which to their mind is almost as bad as what originally happened to them?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am very grateful to my noble friend for his kind remarks. Advances have been made. Indeed, in the report to which I referred, the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, stated that attitudes, policies and practice have changed fundamentally and for the better. She reflected on the fact that in England and Wales there is a specialised system for dealing with rape at police, prosecution and judicial levels. However, she also found that practice was not uniformly good across the country. She recommended that there should be more encouragement for those who are displaying good practice, and that, where it is not good, there is certainly considerable room for improvement. Steps are in place to try to ensure that that happens.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, I congratulate the noble and learned Lord on his new office. In the consideration which is being given to this very delicate and difficult issue of rape, will attention be given to the age at which an offender can properly be prosecuted for this offence?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I thank the noble and learned Lord for his kind remarks. I had much pleasure working with him on your Lordships’ Constitution Committee over the past 18 months. I understand his point and perhaps the implied reference to a recent case. We have indicated that the most immediate issue we are considering relates to anonymity. However, rape is never far away from the consideration of both Houses of Parliament. I have no doubt that the point about age, to which the noble and learned Lord referred, will recur in our debates.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I also congratulate the noble and learned Lord on his appointment. Will he ensure that any changes to the criminal law are evidence-based and that no change in the anonymity rules is brought into effect until there is an opportunity to get statistics from police forces all round the country on whether the anonymity of the defendant would result in fewer women coming forward with their complaints?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am grateful to my noble friend for his welcome. I certainly share the view, which is not specific to this case, that evidence-based legislation, particularly in relation to criminal matters, is almost invariably the best way forward. That is why we have said we will consider options and that any option we bring forward will be based on considerable debate and, I hope, evidence. Indeed, in another place Ministers have called for and welcomed evidence that will be given by people with expertise in this matter. I very much hope that in this House noble Lords who have expertise will be willing to share their views and any evidence which would help us to arrive at a proper option.
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord explain exactly why those accused of rape should be entitled to greater protection than those accused of other serious crimes?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That question is sometimes raised. As I indicated earlier, the issue has been debated for some considerable time. It is a realisation of the severity of the stigma that is attached to rape. It is a unique crime, inasmuch as the victim has anonymity. In terms of its apparent uniqueness, perhaps I may draw attention to the fact that in the coalition Government’s programme for government we are also considering proposals that would give anonymity to teachers who are falsely accused by pupils. Where professional and personal reputation is at stake, we want to look at these issues with a proper degree of sensitivity.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, given that the Minister told the House that securing more prosecutions in rape cases is a priority as regards this range of offences, in what way do he or the Government believe that securing the anonymity of defendants will assist in that?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am not sure that there is necessarily a direct link. There are many other approaches we want to consider whereby we can raise the conviction rate. It is also important to remember that the 6 per cent figure that is sometimes used represents the percentage of cases that are initially reported to the police. In fact, the figure, in terms of convictions in cases that are taken to court, including those convicted of lesser but nevertheless serious sexual offences, is approaching 59 per cent. There is always room for improvement. The report of the review of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, made many recommendations for public authorities—the police, prosecution and judiciary—to improve their service. There are ways to raise the percentage of convictions, an objective shared by all parts of this House.