European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

If the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, thinks there is a danger, we will have to look at it again because I so respect his judgment. I certainly do not want to create a legal vacuum; I want to see the possibility of an extension of Article 50 as one thing that Parliament might do if it decided to reject the Motion on the withdrawal agreement. I also think that it would be appropriate for the Commons to decide on any other course—and certainly I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, that a referendum would be a possibility in those circumstances. How can we possibly judge at this stage what those circumstances will be? We have to have in our amendment—while maintaining legal certainty—the possibility of the Commons being able to decide on a number of different things.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

One of the benefits of the Grieve amendment, as inserted, is that it refers to approving the “final” terms of withdrawal. Part of the problem we now face with an exit day in March 2019 is that the prospects of reaching a final and detailed agreement before then are receding day by day. So it appears to me—I read the Daily Mail every day and follow, as far as I can, what Jacob Rees-Mogg is saying—that the hard Brexiteers want to get us out with the vaguest possible interim agreement and do not mind about it. Parliament has not to allow that. Therefore, it is important to talk about the final and detailed terms of the agreement to be presented to Parliament before we leave, and it is something that we all need to ensure we have in this Bill.

[Lord Liddle]

I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is saying. That is why I think that the possibility of extending Article 50 is realistic, before one contemplates the possibility of a further referendum. The risk that we face at the moment is that the Government will seek to take us out of the European Union finally on the basis of a political declaration that will, frankly, contain mushy words that mean one thing to one set of people and another thing to another set of people.

EU: Balance of Competences Review

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

The other day my wife and I were discussing how much sugar she puts in jam. We have rather a surplus of fruit from our allotment this year. I simply remind the noble Baroness that Britain is also a European country.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, while the Government conduct this interesting and potentially valuable but, in truth, somewhat academic exercise, has the Minister noticed the CBI report published yesterday which shows that the benefit to Britain of our membership is between £62 billion and £78 billion a year—4% to 5% of our GDP? Can he imagine any circumstances in which any British Government would be crazy enough to throw away these benefits, whatever the results of his review of competences?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, academic exercises have their valuable purposes as well. I look forward to hearing the Labour leadership say frequently and openly that they also agree with the CBI’s statement.

EU: Advocates-General of the Court of Justice

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, this is the third debate in which I have spoken on the European Court of Justice from the Opposition Front Bench. We support the strengthening of the system; it is essential to the effectiveness and quality of justice in the European Union. We seem to be getting there at least step by step. The proposal for additional advocates-general has our support. The idea that Poland should have a permanent position seems to be in accord with the acceptance that that country is one of the major member states of the Union. It grants Poland the equality of status that it has long sought.

It is significant that the Government have moved to support this proposal. It shows that at least they accept the pragmatism of the view of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, whereby if you are going to have an effective single market you have to have an effective form of justice. I have to say, however, that there are many people not present tonight but who occupy the government Benches and talk about renegotiating a relationship between Britain and the European Union, which, in essence, boils down to free trade and political co-operation. If that is the vision of the modern Conservative Party about Britain’s relationship with the EU, it is not one in which you would have this system of law which upholds the single market. We need clarification from the Government as to what they envisage the role of the system of law in the European Union to be. I very much hope that what they are doing now, on a case-by-case basis, demonstrates that they accept pooled sovereignty in areas where we have chosen to accept it, and that part of this involves a form of supranational decision-making and supranational law.

My second point is that I support those noble Lords who have raised the question of why progress is limited, so far, to the issue of additional judges for the general court. That is clearly an important part of the reform package. I listened very carefully to what the Minister said about the Government broadly supporting this proposal. Do they support it or do they not? Do they regard the requirement to keep within the existing budget of the court as a binding constraint in all circumstances, or do they not? Is it a binding constraint or is it not? If they say it is a binding constraint, what efficiency proposals are the Government putting forward to the court in order that the cost of the additional judges could be met from within the budget?

I suspect that we are seeing a divided Whitehall here, with some departments recognising the need for additional judges, while others are trying to argue that the cost has to be kept within the existing budget. It is all very well making these declarations but how will it be done?

I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, said about not differentiating between cost and value. It should be obvious to everyone that the value of more efficient decision-making on issues of central concern to our economy, such as the single market, would greatly exceed the cost. Where do the Government stand on this point?

I also endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, said about the value not just of greater efficiency of justice in terms of the single market, but also in terms of the basic rights of European citizens. We welcome the limited steps that have been taken. Of course, one should search for efficiency and cost saving all the time, but can the Government give us an assurance that they will not block a proposal to increase the number of judges purely on cost grounds alone?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this debate has moved more widely than the decision to appoint another three advocates-general. I take it that we are all agreed that we have no objections to the appointment of three additional advocates-general, so I therefore trust that we may agree the Motion—which is the trigger for this debate—at the end of the debate.

On that point, the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, asked about the exact meaning of Article 252 of the TFEU. Many of these things require juristes-linguistes to play around with the words a great deal. I am told that the Council, acting unanimously, can decide, in effect, to increase the number of advocates-general. Declaration 38 is a declaration of intent but the Council has nevertheless to act unanimously to approve a decision. If the British Government, having failed to achieve the agreement of both Houses of Parliament, were to block it, it would not go forward and that would have a damaging effect on UK relations with Poland. The Poles are very much looking forward to joining the other big five, so to speak, in appointing their own advocate-general.

EU: UK Membership

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Monday 22nd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for making the case for the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we are committed to playing a leading role in the European Union to advance our national interests. We play an active role within the EU on many issues—Iran, Syria, Burma, the single market and improving Europe’s competitiveness—and work closely with other EU countries to deliver those important objectives. There is no question of the UK disengaging or withdrawing from the EU. We will remain leading proponents of the EU’s most successful policies.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, although it is always a pleasure to face the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, I was rather hoping to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, to answer this Question—I think it is the first Foreign Office Question that she has had the opportunity to answer. It is a pity, on a day when the Prime Minister is coming back to the other place to report on the European Council, that she is not here.

What the noble Lord said is all very well, but most of what we hear from the coalition is refusal to enter negotiations on questions that are central to our economic interests, such as the fiscal treaty and the banking union. We hear about opt-outs from justice and home affairs measures that are vital to fight organised crime. We hear about repatriation of competences.

[Lord Liddle]

Okay. We hear about a future renegotiation. Is it any surprise that the public standing of the EU is at a low ebb? When will we hear from the Government clear leadership that our membership of the EU is vital to our economy and essential to our place in the world? Since the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is answering for the coalition, how much longer are the Liberal Democrats prepared to put up with the Government’s policy of isolation, defeatism and retreat?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I say on behalf of my noble friend Lady Warsi that she answered three debates last week and she will be here tomorrow. She has other responsibilities.

On the question of defending our position within the EU, the Government have made it clear through a number of senior Ministers, not just the Prime Minister, that we intend to stay in the European Union—rather more clearly than leading members of the previous Government in their last two to three years in office.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Framework Agreement) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, I express the Opposition’s support for the approval of this statutory instrument. One of the real privileges of becoming a Member of the House of Lords, which I did last year, is to listen to people such as the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, who have expertise, wisdom and judgment to offer on things that one knows very little about. I hope that the points that he has raised today, although they are tangential to the thrust of the EU framework agreement, will be taken very seriously and that we will have further opportunities to debate the position in North Korea, about which he spoke so movingly. I thank him on behalf of the Opposition for his work there.

The agreement itself is what they call in EU jargon a strategic partnership, and it is one that is directly linked to the conclusion of the free trade agreement in 2010 between the EU and the Republic of Korea, which I think Europe took about a year to ratify from when it was actually signed. That was not bad when one looks at the position in relation to the United States and its free trade agreements with Korea, which are deeply enmeshed in the problems in the US Congress. Perhaps many people in Britain forget that the EU can be effective and that it still is an important pole of attraction for a very rapidly growing country like the Republic of Korea. The deal on the free trade agreement with the accompanying strategic partnership was negotiated in two years. It arose out of the global initiative that my noble friend Lord Mandelson launched when he was trade commissioner which, given the difficulties of completing the Doha round, was a switch away to bilateral trading agreements with our major trading partners.

The Republic of Korea is extremely significant for us in economic terms. It is the most important trading partner for Europe behind the United States, Japan and China. I discovered that fact when I was Googling away before the debate, but it is a remarkable fact none the less. We on this side welcome the deepening of relations with the Republic of Korea. We think it is right that a trade agreement should have a parallel political agreement, as it were, which sets out a broad range of areas for co-operation and dialogue and we very much wish that co-operation and dialogue to be effective. I am sure that this agreement will play an important role in deepening relationships between Europe and the Republic of Korea, which I hope will assist in a solution being found to the terrible problems that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, described in North Korea. I support the approval of this statutory instrument.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I happily yield to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, as an expert in EU jargon. It is a very erudite subject with which we have both struggled for many years. I feel I am slightly in the same position as I was in last night, when being asked to defend Britain's approach to the OSCE, to which the answer is: we are not entirely sure how this works or what its potential is, but we think it is worth doing. The framework agreements are a new element in EU relations with other countries beyond the European region. They have very wide potential, including on human rights, and provide a formal structure for member states collectively to raise such issues.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his, as always, fascinating and well-informed speech. While nothing in this framework agreement specifically refers to North Korea, relations with North Korea are of course always likely to be an important part of the agenda when we discuss political and human rights issues with our Korean colleagues. All those of us who have been to Seoul know that when you are in Seoul you feel close to the border. The sense of insecurity is not that much less than it used to be when one visited Berlin during the Cold War, so one cannot get away from the North Korean dimension in this relationship. The absence of specific reference to North Korea or to human rights in the framework agreement does not imply that these are outside its structure.

The noble Lord asked a number of specific questions, including one about information on the news of a potential North Korean amnesty for political prisoners. I will inquire further within the Foreign Office and report back. Although I am fully briefed on what is happening in southern Sudan, Kenya, Somalia and Iran, as one jumps from one country to another I have unfortunately not kept up with exactly what is happening in North Korea.

There are problems in developing among the EU 27 a common position on North Korea. Smaller EU member states see North Korea as a distant country, even further away from Europe than Burma. We are therefore talking about the larger EU member states attempting to reconcile their positions, which fits in with their relations with China and their position on nuclear proliferation. Finding common EU positions on distant problems with which not all the smaller member states are directly concerned is not always easy.

EU: Repatriation of Powers

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

Does the noble Lord agree with the article in the Financial Times this morning by the Conservative Member of Parliament, Jo Johnson, in which he says that the last thing the City of London needs to protect its interests is for the British Eurosceptics to plaster a union jack all over it? Does he agree that the best way to defend our vital national interests in Europe is to be in, engaging our partners, rather than out, shouting on the sidelines and demanding repatriation of powers?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the article, which I thought was excellent, and I am very happy that the chair of the relevant European Parliament committee on this is a British Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament, Sharon Bowles.

UN: Specialised Agencies

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

Will the noble Lord give a commitment to consider the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for a regular report to Parliament and greater transparency?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I will gladly commit to considering that. The British Government, here as elsewhere, are very concerned about transparency. I apologise: I should have taken up the point that the noble Lord made about transparency of data. Data are extremely important in many of these areas. We are doing our best to provide better data. In the multilateral aid review, a great deal of emphasis was placed on how much data are available about the effectiveness of work on the ground, in-country, by particular agencies. That is very much part of the way forward.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, from the Opposition’s point of view, exotic as it may seem that we should at this moment be debating the circumstances in which we might join the euro, this Bill is intended to bind future Parliaments for a long time. Indeed, that is one of our major difficulties with it, which is why we will be moving the sunset amendments on Wednesday. However, given that it is a Bill that is intended to bind Parliaments for the future, it is important to get this right. We have listened to our colleague the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, at great length on this subject and are persuaded that he is right. The Opposition will therefore be supporting his amendment.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, no Parliament can bind its successors. That is one of the principles of parliamentary sovereignty. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, for following up the previous Committee discussion with his letter of 19 May, in which he outlined his concerns in more detail: namely, that Clause 6(5)(e) of the Bill might be legally defective. We have therefore taken careful legal advice. The Government have now been able to reply to that letter and a copy has been sent to those of your Lordships who participated in the Committee debates. A copy of the letter has also been deposited in the Library of the House. On the basis of that legal advice, I hope to reassure your Lordships that we do not judge there to be a risk of more than one referendum on the euro being required and that the provision does what we and noble Lords on all sides of your Lordships’ House intend it to do.

Unlike other member states, the UK is not under an obligation to adopt the euro. Protocol 15 of the consolidated treaty begins with the clear statement that the United Kingdom,

“shall not be obliged or committed to adopt the euro without a separate decision to do so by its government and Parliament”.

That protocol, which needs to be read alongside Article 140 in the British case, sets out in detail the steps that must be satisfied before the UK could adopt the euro. Paragraph 9 of the protocol states that after the UK has notified,

“the Council … of its intention to adopt the euro”,

as its currency,

“decisions in accordance with the procedure laid down in Article 140(1) and (2)”,

of the TFEU must first be taken, to which protocol 13 is also relevant.

The process starts in practice by examining convergence criteria as set out in Article 140(2). That is bound to happen before the UK formally notifies, even if it is not part of the formal procedure. It might be helpful to consider what needs to be done following notification of our intention to join the euro. It is not a matter of negotiating terms of entry but of economic criteria being satisfied in terms of the treaty. The final step of the process is to take a decision in accordance with the procedure laid down in Article 140(3) of the TFEU. Paragraph 9(c) of Protocol 15 commits the Council,

“in accordance with the procedure laid down in Article 140(3)”,

to “take all other necessary” measures to enable the UK “to adopt the euro”.

Clause 6(5)(e) is designed to catch this final step in the process, thus ensuring that as much of the complex detail as possible is available to Parliament and the public in deciding whether to join, while giving the Government of the day the flexibility to set the timetable for when to seek approval from Parliament and the British people. If I may say so, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, might almost be old enough to remember the first applications for Britain to join what was then the European Economic Community. Before formal application was made, a number of informal negotiations established the terms for potential negotiation. We envisage something of that in this situation. It will allow the Government to seek a referendum when sufficient detail is known about the circumstances and conditions of entry, but will allow the UK to seek approval from the people before the exact point at which the exchange rate between the euro and the pound would be set. We all recognise that the exact exchange rate will have to be set at the end of the process to avoid market turmoil and speculation against the rates declared.

In contrast, the amendment proposed by the noble Lord would require the referendum to be held and approval given before the UK could notify the EU that it intended to adopt the euro. The Bill nevertheless allows for matters to be arranged in this way if the Government so wished, again providing the degree of flexibility which noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, have so often called for on this Bill. It would be open to the Government of the day to undertake negotiations with the EU in line with paragraph 9 of the protocol before the UK issued its notification. This would allow draft decisions under Article 140(3) on the rate at which the euro would be substituted for sterling and other measures necessary for its introduction to be prepared—with perhaps a range of rates being negotiated—before notifying our final intention to join the euro.

On that basis, I do not consider that the Bill would lead to what we all view as an unwelcome situation in which two referendums would have to be held on the euro: the first on the UK notifying that it wished to join; the second in a rushed weekend on determining the specific question of the exact rate at which the euro is to be exchanged for the pound. Instead, it is possible under the Bill for the Government to submit the question of adopting the euro to a single referendum.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, the Opposition cannot support the amendment. The reasons why many have spoken against it are very true. I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, had to say. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, that in our political culture a precise repeat referendum would be extremely unlikely. However, we should not tie our hands. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, you vote under a particular set of circumstances but circumstances can change at remarkable speed. We do not need these kinds of constraints on our politics.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this is the second time that we have examined an amendment of this nature. It did not find much sympathy around the Chamber in Committee and it has not found much more now. The amendment stipulates a lesser period of three years rather than the original five but the principle remains the same.

In Committee I set out some of the Government’s objections to an amendment of this nature and I will recapitulate some of those now. First, were the British electorate to vote no in a referendum, it is clear that the Government would have to consider their future action carefully. It would be difficult to view the result as anything other than a firm rejection of a proposal for treaty change. If the Government wanted to hold another referendum for whatever reason, under the terms of this legislation, as my noble friend Lady Brinton said, they would first need to secure parliamentary approval to do so by Act. Primary legislation would be necessary to enable the referendum, so Parliament would have to consider that request very carefully and itself be persuaded to agree, which is not necessarily a given.

Secondly, the amendment reduces flexibility, a quality that has attracted a lot of support from all Benches. We do not know what will happen in the future, and as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has suggested, sometimes we do know what will happen in the short term future. As noble Lords have argued on a number of occasions, and in this case following the rejection of a proposal by the British people in a referendum, circumstances could change. There are “events, dear boy” and unexpected crises whether they be security crises, financial collapse, economic recession or even crises of energy supply or surges in immigration. All might conceivably transform the situation. So there could be previously unanticipated grounds for the Government and Parliament to believe that the treaty change on the table was in the national interest of this country. As a consequence, if both the Government and Parliament were to decide that there were good reasons for putting a question to the British people in a further referendum, Parliament should be able to do so without having to disapply an inflexible provision.

I have to say to the noble Lord that I would be surprised if any Government in the future would wish to hold a referendum in the hope that the people would be somehow persuaded to change their minds merely by the Government cajoling them rather than in response to a substantial change in circumstances. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, said in Committee. He pointed out that the people of Denmark, Ireland, France and the Netherlands,

“were perfectly capable of settling the first propositions put in front of them and they were perfectly capable of assessing the changes”.—[Official Report, 23/5/11; col. 1621.]

Those changes were any changes that had taken place or had been made to the treaty before them between the holding of the first and second referendums. People are clear in their own mind and will not easily be browbeaten into giving a different answer just because the Government—any Government—would like one. As the Minister for Europe made clear in the other place, it is a recipe not only for the public to say no again, just as firmly if not even more so, but also an invitation to be voted out of government at the next election for treating the public with contempt. But I reiterate that there might be circumstances where a repeat referendum may be in order before the three years suggested by the noble Lord had elapsed.

We were running through a most wonderful boom at the end of 2007. The recession hit us rapidly and sharply thereafter, with the financial collapse of a number of banks. We face a potential crisis in energy supply. At the moment there is a range of possibilities where crises might erupt that would affect us and our European partners. Therefore I see no reason for reducing flexibility, as this amendment would, and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw it.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Monday 23rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

Whatever the specifics of the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, does it not illustrate the need to include in this clause some equivalent of the significance test provided in Clause 6? I wonder whether, in the spirit of co-operation and willingness to consider things in a flexible way, the Government might take away and consider—for all of these later clauses that require an Act of Parliament rather than a referendum—some flexibility that would allow a significance test to be applied by a Minister. That would require a lower level of parliamentary approval in cases where we are dealing with technicalities rather than important issues of policy.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

Of course we will reflect on that, but I remind noble Lords that the purpose of this Act is to improve parliamentary scrutiny and oversight of the procedures of the EU.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I think we all understand that Clause 6 is at the heart of the Bill. We have spent considerable time on Clause 6 and we will return to it on Report. No doubt we will have discussions between Committee and Report on aspects of it.

I will just say a few things on Clause 6, how it fits in the Bill, and where it fits in the coalition agreement and so on. The coalition agreement was, of course, a headline agreement, and on that basis the coalition partners negotiated the detail that came out of it. We have seen this evening—and those of you who read the debates in another place will be well aware—that this Bill is a compromise between incompatible positions. It is doing its utmost to draw a line underneath the long argument about keeping competence and centralisation in Brussels, which has run through British and other national politics for a long time.

It is our case, in putting forward this Bill, that the Lisbon treaty provides extensive competencies that we can use. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, that this is not in any sense an attempt to destroy the Lisbon treaty by the back door. It is based on the understanding that the Lisbon treaty does indeed provide a great deal of headroom for us all to achieve the objectives that we seek. As the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, was speaking, I had a quick look at Articles 191 and 192 of the Treaty on the European Union, because I wanted to check how much headroom the Lisbon treaty gives us on environmental policy. It is quite clear that EU carbon emissions targets are agreed under existing competencies, and largely under qualified majority voting. All the Bill does is to say that if the UK wants to give up its veto over the environmental matters listed in Article 192(2), including fiscal matters, town planning and the structure of our energy supply—that is to say, if we wish to move from unanimity to qualified majority voting—then we have to bring it back to Parliament, and, if necessary, for a referendum.

We are now going to move on to Articles 7 to 10, which will deal with a range of issues that will not be subject to referendums, where parliamentary scrutiny— parliamentary approval—is set down. That is very much an indication that we have done our utmost to distinguish between sensitive and significant issues and other issues on which we can move. However, I am not persuaded that we need endless flexibility, which we do not have, to be able to achieve the objectives which we as a constructive member of the Union wish to pursue over the next few years. The Lisbon treaty gives us that flexibility.

[Lord Liddle]

The Minister mentioned the coalition agreement, which is obviously a compromise between parties that have different views on Europe, but did not the Liberal Democrat party conceive of what it was signing up for in the coalition agreement in the following way? The Lisbon treaty had gone through and been ratified; the Liberal Democrats had supported that in Parliament. That is why the coalition agreement clearly states that the passerelles should be subject to proper parliamentary approval but not to referenda. The Liberal Democrat view was that the flexibilities contained within the Lisbon treaty should be subject to proper parliamentary scrutiny but not to referenda. New treaties of the conventional type were a different matter where the Liberal Democrats were prepared to accept a case for referenda. I am not speaking for the Liberal Democrats, but it seems to me on any objective reading of the coalition agreement that that is what was intended. However, that is not what this Bill says; this Bill is not what was agreed.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I do not wish to get into a lengthy disquisition either of passerelle or of the coalition agreement. We attempted to negotiate also with the Labour Party. I have no doubt that those negotiations, had they been pursued further, would also have led to a very carefully and painfully crafted coalition agreement with a party which itself has some divisions within it about Europe. I saw a Bruges Group advertisement last week which had Kelvin Hopkins, Mark Seddon and a number of other people speaking on the case for leaving the European Union. Let us all be a little realistic about the political circumstances under which we are all operating. Having answered some of the questions, I encourage the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, not to oppose the clause standing part.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Monday 9th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I shall respond to the spirit of the probing amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, rightly moved. It is useful to probe on this. I do not think that I can respond to all the points that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, raised, because they seem to me to stem from a deep conspiratorial assumption about the implicit plot behind the Bill, and I suspect that reasoned argument cannot reach that deep.

I should point out that Articles 235(1) and 238(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union make it clear that abstaining in a decision requiring unanimity is effectively counted as a supportive vote, and so an abstention could be classed as supporting a decision. Those of us who have been involved in any way in Brussels decisions will know that formal voting is not the most common form of decision-making in Brussels. A great many are taken by consensus and the chair taking the sense of the meeting. That is no doubt part of the reason why the previous Government, in their wisdom—I am not saying that they were always wrong, let alone that they pursued conspiracies of their own—put in this phrase “or otherwise support”. That does not mean that a Minister cannot indicate support in principle for a decision if the Minister also gives notice that a vote in favour is subject to approval by Act of Parliament and to the referendum condition being met, if that is required by the decision.

The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, was determined to get enhanced co-operation into the discussion even though we are not discussing that amendment. Enhanced co-operation is under way. The British Government are indeed involved in the process of enhanced co-operation on patent law. We do not believe that Britain will become more marginal because enhanced co-operation takes place among others. After all, if one looks at what is happening with European co-operation in defence, one will see that the United Kingdom and France are, in effect, leading in defining practical co-operation in that regard. The myth behind the Bill—that we will somehow be pushed to the margin, which the noble Lord thinks is a good thing but the noble Lord, Lord Davies, thinks is a wicked thing—is not the case. In an EU of 27, which is about to be an EU of 28, 29 or 30, it is likely that there will be a number of issues on which smaller groups—which will often including the United Kingdom, though sometimes not—will move ahead on their own through enhanced co-operation. In most cases that will not require treaty change. They will merely be moving ahead because it is not possible for all 27, 28, 29 or 30 to agree. Therefore, that will not be caught by the Bill.

[Lord Liddle]

If Britain agreed to enhanced co-operation but the member states participating in enhanced co-operation then decided under the provisions of the Lisbon treaty to change the decision-making process to qualified majority voting, would the Bill cover the situation?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

As a hypothetical situation, at that point it would because it would be a change in power and competence. The enhanced co-operation itself would not. That is the distinction. Let me reiterate: a Minister can make very clear that the Government support a decision but that they must also seek the necessary approval of Parliament and the public first. Britain is not alone in this respect. This is the way in which national Governments very often have to proceed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I suspect that the noble Lord may know the answer to that. As I have made clear, when we are not discussing questions of the transfer of power and competence, these questions do not apply. As for the parliamentary scrutiny reserve, these questions occasionally do apply. As the noble Lord will be aware, the thrust of this Bill is partly to respond to those who fear that the European Union much prefers to talk about process, competences and institutions than about policy and outcomes. We want a European Union which focuses on policy and constructive outcomes and does not spend too much time focusing on institutions.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, of course this side of the House will not pursue this amendment and we will withdraw it. Before I withdraw it formally, I should say that I am very glad that we have put forward this amendment because it has raised some interesting points. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has not been adequately answered by the Government. In this discussion, we also have had a first: it is the first time since we started Committee stage that the Government have said that they might go away and look at something, which is quite remarkable. We have been passing rather like ships in the night.

The government Benches on the one hand and the Opposition and opinion generally throughout the House on the other hand have been talking, although not really engaging. This is the first time that the Government have said that they will consider the wording. I should have thought that if the need is to find a form of words to cover the agreement on a consensus without a vote one could find more specific words than “or otherwise support”. I see no objection to adding something on the lines of what is suggested in Amendment 32A in order to make clear that this is not intended to be a restraint on Ministers.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I was not aware that any of these clauses in any way undermined the Lisbon treaty. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who was much involved in the EU convention, is not here. Those of us who have read, as I have, a certain amount on the EU convention and the Lisbon treaty, which followed it, are well aware that the clauses on the emergency brake and passerelle were agreed after hard negotiations, in which it was not the United Kingdom versus all the others. Several member Governments in this now rather large and complex European Union wanted some reassurance that, as they touched on such sensitive areas as national sovereignty, law, finance and welfare provision—some of the issues covered by these emergency brake provisions—they would have, at the back, the ability to say, “No, we are not happy with what is proceeding”. That is what the emergency brake is about. It is not the case that Britain stands alone against 26 other member states that are determined to integrate further and sweep more powers into Brussels.

The United Kingdom and several others are pushing for further co-operation in a range of areas. Coalitions across the European Union differ according to each subject on which we negotiate. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, knows better than me what it looks like once you are inside government. The emergency brakes are there to reassure member states—their public and their Governments—and those who care not just about the peculiarities of English criminal law and justice but about those of Polish and Romanian criminal law and justice. I have read what the then Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, said about this when he gave evidence to the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee on the Lisbon treaty. He said that the Government hoped that the emergency brake would never have to be used, but that it was there as a reassurance to national Governments. I emphasise “Governments”; this was not just about the British.

Jack Straw went on to say to the House of Lords European Union Committee:

“So it is an additional protection and I think really rather an important one”.

Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, drafted this. Jack Straw then said:

“Again, it is quite a paradoxical point but I think the effect of it may be to provide greater confidence to British Government to get involved in opting into instruments, which is actually in principle what we want to do, and having done that then some additional surety which will get a satisfactory answer so that we do not have to apply the emergency brake”.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said that sometimes the arguments around all this are arcane and of mind-boggling complexity. That sentence was not the easiest to read. However, the whole purpose of the emergency brakes is precisely to reassure national Governments on sensitive issues. It is not intended that they should be regularly used. It is highly unlikely that any Government will wish to remove them in the foreseeable future. Therefore, I suggest humbly that this amendment is one of the least useful that we have to consider.

[Lord Liddle]

I think the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is trying to distort the position that I have put forward. I am not in favour of removing the emergency brakes. I am saying that the flexibility is there in the Lisbon treaty to do this. Those of us who have doubts about the Government’s Bill are saying that since this flexibility could be exercised only by Act of Parliament, why does it have to be done through a referendum? That is fundamentally the point. We heard the argument about what the former Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, said about the Lisbon treaty late at night in the previous session of the Committee. The point is that David Miliband recommended the Lisbon treaty to the other place on the basis of the flexibilities that it contains. However, the problem with the Bill is that it tries to tie up all those flexibilities with its wretched referendum lock.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is trying to cover up the fact that his party is allowing the Conservative Party a second bite at the cherry on the referendum on the Lisbon treaty that it failed to secure. That is what much of the Bill is about. It is to my great regret that the British party that has been the strongest supporter of Britain’s membership of the European Union has gone along with what the Conservatives are asking for in this case. They are after a re-run of Lisbon. The amendments that we on this side of the Committee have put forward say, “Let us take the Lisbon treaty as it is and accept that the flexibilities within it do not require referenda”.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

It is my great regret that for 13 years under the previous Labour Government the balance of public opinion in this country became steadily more sceptical about the European Union and that the Government of Tony Blair and then of Gordon Brown failed to make a positive case for European Union engagement. That has left us with a very sceptical public and a deeply sceptical and antagonistic press. That is the problem with which this Bill deals. It is another problem that we have inherited from a succession of previous Governments. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, might well have tried to do something about that at the time from inside government, but unfortunately he did not succeed.

[Lord Liddle]

We can have academic debates about these questions in other places, and I do not want to delay the Committee. However, on the facts, there has been no great swing of British public opinion against the European Union over the past 15 years or so. It has fluctuated with circumstances over time. The Eurosceptic press was not created by the previous Government; unfortunately, it has been with us for a lot longer than that.

We on this side fundamentally object to the idea that plebiscitary democracy is the way to restore public trust. I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is going along with this. I do not know what the noble Lord’s views are on the current referendum campaign, but there does not seem to be a high quality of public debate on referenda, given the way in which some of the people involved in the referendum campaign have argued that we are missing out by not having these issues decided in Parliament, where there would at least be a more balanced consideration of them.

I will, of course, withdraw this amendment. However, we on this side have moved several amendments on these lines, and we see no give whatever on the Government’s part. On subsequent Committee days I will refer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, to which the Government must face up: namely, if they think that something has to be done in the national interest, would it still require a referendum, and what would be their position on that? That question is highly relevant.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, has made an apposite intervention. I do not know what the relevant question would be but this is something in the real world that Ministers might have to address. It could enormously strengthen the Union’s capacity to deal with climate change and energy issues.

Amendments 23J and 23L are further examples. Amendment 23L is on piracy. We know that there is a growing problem of piracy, particularly in the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. We know that an EU force is attempting to deal with this problem but that its efforts are inadequate. What is the reason for that? Is it a lack of resources or commitment on the part of the member states? That is possible, but another explanation is that the basis on which the force is patrolling this area does not match the tough circumstances that need to be dealt with. There is no agreement between the member states on the terms of engagement between the EU force and the pirates. There is no agreement on the circumstances in which force can legitimately be used.

These are difficult issues to tackle within the European Union because they touch on terribly sensitive issues to do with defence and armies, areas where the European Union has rightly been cautious in getting involved. I am not in favour of a European army, nor is the Labour Party, so do not try to say that this is trying to open the door to that.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

It would be a European navy.

[Lord Liddle]

Yes, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is right about that.

We are not talking about that but it could be, if we are going to have an effective force for this purpose, that we need to have a much more integrated force posture with common rules of engagement. That is a possibility that member states in these particular circumstances ought to be prepared to consider.

Look at north Africa, where the events occurring mean that the European neighbourhood policy and the Union for the Mediterranean require a complete rethink in their light. We need, as a European Union, to develop a coherent policy which particularly offers those countries in north Africa which are going down the path of strengthening democracy and human rights incentives for going further in that direction. I was interested in a piece that I read—I think it was yesterday—by Peter Sutherland about what might be necessary in order to make that policy happen. It involves tackling very sensitive and difficult issues, such as the need to have more flexible rules on immigration for people from those countries so that they can come and study in Europe, spend time here and then go back there. It requires having more flexible rules on trade so that trade with the European Union can boost their economies and jobs. That would do something about the appalling problems of youth unemployment in those countries. It may require a more common approach to asylum. We are potentially facing having 400,000 people in refugee camps in north Africa, so I read in a newspaper article the other day. These are issues that cannot be addressed in 10 years’ time but on which the European Union needs to develop credible policies, in its own interests, in the next year or two.

Most of the time, we obviously want Europe to use its existing powers under the existing treaties. Yet are we saying that we would not contemplate any change at all? This is the Williamson question which was asked earlier. The Government are getting themselves into a trap here. The coalition has pursued a positive approach to the European Union so far in its negotiations, but if they really believe that they are pursuing a pro-European policy, we urge them to be flexible on these issues and to recognise that we do not want to tie ourselves down with referendum requirements in areas where there is cross-party agreement and a general consensus that we need a stronger and more effective European Union. I beg to move.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. I was in no way suggesting that his imagination had stretched that far. Perhaps I might return to the amendment because I hope that after dinner we are going to keep to each of them. My puzzlement on this one is that I see nothing in the Bill that cramps the powers and competences of the European Court of Justice to enforce compliance with European Union law. Her Majesty’s Government support an effective European Union—as did our predecessors, as the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, said—and strongly support the better implementation of European Union law. We shall continue to do so.

[Lord Liddle]

There is a lot with which I agree in what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, has said. I agree with the basic analysis: that the question is of how the powers of the Union, as granted by the Lisbon treaty, should be used. What the noble Lord glosses over in his defence, as it were, of the Government is that the Lisbon treaty covers much of the ground that we need to cover but this Bill is designed to cramp the flexibility that it contains. That is the fundamental issue which noble Lords from around the House are trying to address. We are saying: “Look, we're not asking for a mandate for vast new powers for the European Union. That isn't what the argument is about”. We are saying: “The Lisbon treaty? Fine—but there is flexibility within it. Why are the Government ruling out using that flexibility where we, as the United Kingdom, think that it is in our national interest and where the British Government support it?”. Those are the conditions which would have to be met.

I am not a great expert on the European Court of Justice, unlike other noble Lords who may be in the Chamber. However, in its analysis of that Court your Lordships’ own committee, under the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, pointed to the possibility of the need for some change in the treaty. We ought to be open to that possibility and to a little bit of give on this kind of thing. If the Bill is to have a less troublesome Report stage than it looks as if it might otherwise have, the Government have to find a way of accommodating the view that we need more flexibility on some of these more detailed provisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I am sure that the noble Lord knows Justice Scalia of the US Supreme Court well. Justice Scalia has argued on a number of occasions that no American court could ever give credence to international treaty law or to any international court because intrinsically United States law is superior to that of any other state or court—a fundamentally nationalist line that is familiar to us. I am sure that the noble Lord shares it from an English perspective.

I do not wish to pursue that much further. I merely wish to say that my puzzlement on this amendment and on those that follow is that there is considerable flexibility in the treaty that is now before us. It is not the aim of the Bill to tie the British Government or to repatriate powers. We have heard today, even from some of the people behind us on the coalition Benches, that the Bill is inadequate and that what they wanted was repatriation and a reduction of the powers. That is not what we planned. What we are asking for is a pause. Pauses are sometimes used to try to rebuild public confidence in a range of different policy areas and it seems entirely appropriate that, after the considerable extension of competence that the EU has been through over successive treaty changes, there should now be a pause.

We should draw a line under the conspiratorial suspicions and fears—the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, used the word “fears” about his views on what the Bill might have behind it, underneath it or somewhere in a back cupboard—that Brussels is going to slide things past us by saying, “Let’s work within the existing treaties for the foreseeable future and then, when we are absolutely clear that additional powers or competences may be needed, we will return to this process”. However, I hope that all Members of this House will agree that we have spent far too long with Governments and members of the European Commission and Parliament who love discussing institutional change—much more than they wish to discuss real policy outcomes. What we need to do now in the EU is to improve our real policy outcomes using the substantial amount of competences that we now share. I encourage the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Liddle]

I shall of course withdraw the amendment at this stage. What I find puzzling, though, is that when the Minister reads the Bill he sees in it lots of flexibility and possibilities for dealing pragmatically with the challenges that arise but when I and other noble Lords, such as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, read the Bill we see real inflexibility and an attempt to tie a British Government down in a way that is contrary to our national interests. I urge the Minister to have another think about this. Although he is a highly intelligent man who knows a lot about the European Union, his perception of the Bill is not shared by some of the most formidable experts on these issues in the country. I hope very much that the Government will have another look at these matters when we come to Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I will not pursue that further.

The question is: does the Bill tie the hands of the British Government against British national interests? That is the fear which the noble Lord appears to have; I have to say that it is an irrational fear. There is a great deal that the British Government can do to pursue our national interests within the European Union within its present competences, and we are doing so.

The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, gave us an early version of her speech on the question of enhanced co-operation before dinner. As it happens, the United Kingdom Government are leading in early enhanced co-operation. The Franco-British treaty puts us very much in the lead on European defence co-operation. It is not what some other members of the European Union would have liked to put in the treaty, which was a commitment to have a European army, but of course they did not know what they meant by having a European army: it is much more practical co-operation on military affairs. That is the way forward, it seems to us.

On the following amendments from the noble Lord, I see nothing in the Bill which cramps the British Government in pursuing practical and effective British interests within the European Union in strengthening the single market. We now know that the single market has not been fully implemented. Some of what was happening in Greece was appalling; I have just been to southern Italy and it was quite easy to see parts of the single market which are not enforced there, but the powers are there. The single market needs to be more effectively enforced. There are clauses in the Lisbon treaty which talk about expanding the single market into services. There are some very tough clauses on state aids and competition law. We have those powers, and we do not need to spend more time chasing constitutional change before we begin effectively to make the European Union work better.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has tried to make a very powerful case for the Government, but actually he is unwittingly misleading the House when he quotes David Miliband as saying that there is no need for any further institutional navel-gazing on the basis of the Lisbon treaty. I would agree with that, although obviously the euro crisis has created a new situation in economic affairs. Broadly speaking, given where he stood in 2009, that is absolutely right, but David Miliband was talking about the Lisbon treaty that contained the simplified revision procedure under Article 48(6) and the passerelles under Article 48(7). He was talking about the package that gave the Union powers but also contained limited flexibility to change those powers in the light of circumstances precisely in order to obviate the need for further major treaty change for a long period ahead.

What this Government are now doing and what this coalition has agreed to do is basically to hamstring the flexibility that the Lisbon treaty contains. That is why the Opposition are urging the Government to think again, because this is where all the requirements for 56 referenda come from. If only you would look at the issue of how to allow more flexibility within the Lisbon treaty, many of us on this side of the House would be satisfied. I shall withdraw the amendment for the moment in the hope that the Government will consider these issues further.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Liddle

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am merely pointing out that we all face some rather large structural problems in our democracy. I also note that we face some extremely complex issues in attempting to define what we mean by parliamentary sovereignty, to which we will return later.

We have seen a number of other interesting elements in this debate. I liked the emergence of the Stoddart/Hannay/Kerr consensus. I enjoyed hearing the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, as I think I understood him, emerge as a staunch campaigner for electoral reform. I noted the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, resurrecting the doctrine of the mandate that has reappeared in Labour Party policy as a means, I think, of attempting to argue that the coalition agreement is illegitimate. I would just remind her that, many years ago, when I was giving evidence to a committee on which she sat—I think it was on the Salisbury convention—she asked me about clear mandates in manifestos. I had to point out that the clearest pledge in the 1997 Labour manifesto was to hold a referendum on the alternative vote.

[Lord Liddle]

It was on the voting system.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

In either sense, if it was a mandate, the Labour Government did not fulfil it.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked me why the Government had not yet replied to the Constitution Committee. I have seen the Government’s response, which was submitted to the committee last week—last Wednesday, I believe. I do not understand why it has not yet been published, and I very much hope that it will be published within the next few days.