Daesh in Syria and Iraq

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 16th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made earlier in the other place and I apologise for the absence of my noble friends Lady Morgan of Ely and Lord Collins of Highbury. Both are unable to be in the House this evening.

The scale of the humanitarian catastrophe stemming from the civil war in Syria is almost too great to comprehend. The death toll is well over 250,000. Millions of men, women and children will spend this Christmas living in tents in Lebanon and Turkey, across Europe in Greece and Serbia, and just 20 miles from our own shores in Calais. Even after all the brutality we have seen over the past four years, the situation continues to deteriorate. This week there were reports that ISIL will murder children who have Down’s syndrome. My late wife was a Mencap volunteer who worked with Down’s syndrome youngsters, so I am sickened by these reports. For too long the international community failed the people of Syria and we must now do everything we can to address the situation.

British military action is focused on ISIL’s economic infrastructure, particularly oil. During the Syria debate, I urged the Government to target ISIL’s wealth-creating, oil-exporting capability, and I am pleased that this was the first target of our air strikes. Can the Minister tell us what assessment has been made of the degree of success of our operations in destroying that oil-exporting capacity? Most welcome in the Statement is the report that there have been no civilian casualties. God knows, the people of Syria have suffered enough. But there will be civilians working and living in and around the oil facilities we are targeting. What steps are being taken before a strike to minimise civilian casualties, and then after a strike has occurred, to ensure that any possible civilian casualties can be investigated?

I shall return to the question of ISIL’s wealth and its ability to fund its evil activities. In the Syria debate, I asked what steps we are taking to cut off the flow of money earned from investments worldwide which are controlled by ISIL. I note from the Statement that Finance Ministers are to meet in New York and that it will be attended by our Chancellor of the Exchequer. Will the Minister say whether we are doing anything here, bearing in mind that London is the world’s premier financial centre?

Many noble Lords have expressed doubts about the Prime Minister’s statement that there was a force 70,000-strong of moderates who would engage in the ground war against ISIL. What progress have the Government made in identifying and co-ordinating with such forces? More, will the Minister say whether we are undertaking operations to help alleviate the pressure on the Kurdish Peshmerga forces operating in Syria? We certainly share the Government’s view that military action can only ever be part of a package of measures needed to defeat ISIL and end the Syrian civil war. Britain’s overriding priority has to be supporting a diplomatic agreement which unites the elements opposed to ISIL within Syria and paves the way for the departure of Assad. The first step to this is an agreement between the Sunni factions opposed to both Assad and ISIL. I note the progress towards this achieved in Riyadh.

There has been a lot of speculation about these talks so will the Minister say how the groups were invited to attend these talks? Did Britain make representations to the Saudis as to who should be invited? In particular, were key Kurdish groups, such as the Syrian Democratic Forces and the Democratic Union Party, present at the talks? It has been said that the Salafist group, Ahrar al-Sham, pulled out of the talks and were opposed to any peace talks with Assad. However, it was later reported that it had signed the agreement. Can the noble Baroness shed any light on this? This group has an estimated 20,000 fighters. Did this form part of the 70,000 figure the Government previously said would be moderate forces opposed to Assad and ISIL?

The key test for the Riyadh agreement will be whether it facilitates meaningful peace talks and a ceasefire, as outlined at the second Vienna conference. Will the Minister confirm whether, following the Riyadh agreement, the Syrian opposition will have a common position and a single representative at these talks or whether there will be distinct, separate factions represented?

The original timetable was for a possible cessation of hostilities to coincide with the start of peace talks on 1 January. Do the Government still think that this is achievable? Was there a clear commitment to this timetable from the parties present at the Syria talks in Paris on Monday? Following the Paris talks, will the Minister confirm whether further talks of regional and international powers will take place in New York this week? If these talks clash with the EU summit, who will represent Britain?

With so many different parties to the Syrian civil war, maintaining a ceasefire will be extremely difficult and complex, which I think we all appreciate. But have the Government explored the possibility of a UN resolution reinforcing the outline agreement, including the ceasefire, agreed at the second Vienna conference? Can the Minister confirm whether Britain will seek a UN resolution to support any agreement reached between Syrian opposition forces and Assad?

Finally, many nations have responded to the Syrian refugee crisis. In Lebanon, nearly one in four of the population is a recent refugee from Syria. Jordan is hosting more than 1 million Syrian refugees. Around 340,000 refugees have been resettled in Germany. This week, we saw Canada welcoming the first of 35,000 refugees who will be resettled there by next October. On this side, we certainly welcome the news today that the 1,000 refugees the Prime Minister promised would be here by Christmas has been honoured. It is an honour to the whole of Britain that that has happened. Taken together, this gives us hope that humankind will not pass on the other side of the street when people are suffering as much as they are in Syria.

We are approaching one of the most special and, for many, one of the most holy times of the year. Whether we have faith or not, as we prepare to share the Christmas joy, I want to pay tribute to the outstanding bravery and professionalism of the men and women of Britain’s Armed Forces who have made the success of these early missions possible. When we are at home this Christmas, many perhaps with our families, I have no doubt that the British people will keep in their thoughts and prayers our fighting men and women and their families. They serve our country in dangerous and difficult circumstances. For this, they deserve our unflinching admiration and respect.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for coming back so early to report to Parliament and to encourage them to continue to do so both on the Floor and, since there are things that cannot be said on the Floor, off the Floor as far as possible on an all-party basis. It is very important to hold cross-party consensus together on what we are doing in this incredibly complicated situation. That includes carrying the country with us, including Britain’s Muslim minority, which needs to be reassured that we are not taking part in any sort of western crusade against the Sunni and Muslim world but that we are part of a campaign with Middle Eastern partners against this perversion of Islam.

We are all concerned about this as a war across the Middle East. We have been concerned at those who wanted to switch from being preoccupied with Assad to being preoccupied with ISIS and allowing Assad to stay in place. From all the evidence we have, we know that the refugees fleeing to Europe are overwhelmingly fleeing Assad rather than ISIS. We cannot therefore merely move from one to the other. We are also aware that the Saudis are distracted by Yemen, in which a number of other Gulf states are also engaged. What is happening in Libya is increasingly worrying. Sinai is no longer under Egyptian Government control. The worsening situation in the occupied West Bank is a matter of concern which could worsen further and continues to act as a recruiting rationale for confused young men in all sorts of countries to join ISIS. We need a broad approach.

Therefore, I should like to ask how Her Majesty’s Government are engaging in the very important diplomatic side, since we are never going to win this conflict except through diplomatic, multilateral agreement. Where are we post-Vienna? How actively are the Government engaged and with whom most closely in pursuing the tasks agreed at the Vienna conference? How actively are our Government engaged with the more difficult of our partners in this endeavour? The Russians, after all, appear to have been focusing their attacks in Syria on the Turkmen rather than on ISIS. We have to have the reluctant co-operation of Iran in any transition away from the Assad regime. It is necessary to insist that border control is extremely important to Turkey, while the Kurds have to be seen as an asset in the fight against Daesh/ISIL rather than a threat to Turkishness as such. Finally, in so many ways, the objectives of the Saudi Government do not coincide with ours.

It was splendid to hear the statement on what has been agreed in Riyadh on human rights and so on. I do not think most of that is intended to apply within Saudi Arabia. There are many things to do on the diplomatic front. I do not want to repeat the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, on the military side. We welcome the greater visibility of the Syrian Democratic Forces and a degree of cohesion among different factions, which appears now to offer a more effective counterweight to Daesh in north-eastern Syria. We were worried by the contradictory statements about Kurdish exclusion from the Riyadh talks and would welcome the Government clarifying how far Kurdish elements, which are now co-operating with Arab, Christian and other forces much more effectively than they were, are to be pulled in.

Finally, next summer we are likely to see if the civil war has no sign of reaching an ending and whether there will be a further surge of refugees towards Europe. The best way to keep refugees in the region is to offer them the hope that this war will come to an end. I would like to hear a little more from the Government on how far we are working with others to ensure that, while the conflict continues, those who are really struggling in underfunded refugee camps are fully supported.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their thoughtful and compassionate tone in reflecting on those who are affected by the evils of Daesh and those who are seeking to defeat it. I join with their tribute to the Armed Forces.

I was asked whether I would give an assessment of our success in our operations, both to destroy oil capacity and more generally. Clearly, a careful analysis is taking place of the impact of combined air operations and how that affects Daesh’s ability not only to produce oil but to transmit it. When one carries out air assaults it is important to disrupt the arterial network—the roads. I was in northern Iraq last month on the day that the assault on Sinjar was launched. The importance of that was not only to recover the town and give it back to its people but to provide a break in the supply lines. So it is not a simple matter of saying what disrupting oil production can do to reduce the overall supply of oil for sale, which Daesh then profits from; it is part and parcel of a wider picture.

I was rightly asked about civilians and the steps that the RAF and UK aircraft personnel take to avoid any civilian casualties. I can say, as I did when repeating the Statement last time—I beg the House’s pardon; the Leader repeated the Statement—that we still do not have any reports of casualties that have occurred to civilians in either Syria or Iraq as a result of RAF air strikes. I appreciate some of the processes that go into the careful selection of targets and the avoidance of risk to civilians, but, as I mentioned in the Statement, there is always a risk. It is how one contains that risk. We hope that we remain in the position where there are no such reports, but when that happens there are processes in place, not only for reports by others but for self-reporting, too. It is a matter that we take most seriously.

I was also asked how we are taking steps here to prevent the funding of Daesh. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has been working across government to ensure that the sanctions imposed on Daesh are properly effected here—as, indeed, has the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the Treasury—and that we trace those who may be involved in such activities. I know that noble Lords would not expect me to comment in any further detail on that.

I was also asked about the position of the Kurds in Syria who need help. The Kurds in Syria have indeed been fighting against Daesh, as well against the depredations of the Assad regime. First, on the question of military help, we are not supplying weapons to anybody on any side in Syria, but we have delivered more than 4 million articles of life-saving equipment, including communications, medical and logistics equipment, and we have provided equipment to protect against chemical weapons attacks, including 5,000 escape hoods, nerve agent pre-treatment tablets and chemical weapon detector paper. That is available for all those seeking to defeat Daesh with whom we seek to work. We cannot contact all of them, but where we do, that is the kind of assistance that we can give.

A wide range of people was brought together at the Riyadh conference, which was held between 8 and 10 December. I understand that the Syrian opposition agreed a representative negotiating team for the upcoming UN-brokered negotiations with the regime. The national coalition will play a leading role in the new team as a result of that. A wide group of people was invited. Some would fall into the category of those with whom we have contact on a regular basis; others would not. I think noble Lords will understand that I am not in a position to identify particular groups. I was asked to say whether they are part of the 70,000 persons who were described as those who would fight against Daesh. We have to be careful not to identify individual groups or people, for obvious reasons, but I can say that we estimate that there are around 70,000 non-extremist opposition fighters in Syria. The majority of them are linked to the Free Syrian Army.

In addition—to come to the Kurdish matter—some 20,000 Kurdish fighters are playing an important role in combating Daesh in Syria. Politically, over the last 18 months the major opposition armed groups have come together to affirm that they are prepared to negotiate a political settlement to the Syria conflict, based on the Geneva communiqué of 2012. That is a major advance. I know that it looks as if there are only small steps, but it has made a real change.

I was also asked whether the Syrian opposition would have a common position. As I just explained, they have said that they will be in the position to play a leading role in the talks as they go forward.

I was also asked about the timetable and whether it can be met. We hope that the timetable can be met so that the talks can begin in January. Lots of things in this world can intervene, but the important thing is that those who met together to give this commitment agreed on a structure—not necessarily a day-by-day timetable, but a structure—by which we could ultimately achieve the transition of power and preserve the institutions of Syria, so that we can learn from past events and not repeat them in Syria so that transition is practically possible.

I was also asked about UN resolutions and whether we would seek one regarding the agreement in Syria. I referred to that; my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in New York at the end of this week. I know that we will continue to work very closely with the UN, as we always do. Where it is appropriate for a resolution to be considered, our normal practice is that we would seek to do that—but we will have to see how those talks develop.

I was also asked who our real, like-minded friends are with whom we engage in this. I think that I gave a flavour of that in the Statement. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary mentioned that he met on Monday the United States, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. It is important that we continue to engage with them.

I was asked a practical point by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, which was: if the talks are happening in New York at the end of this week, yet we also have the EU talks carrying on, how will the personnel be divided? I can assure him that it is normal practice that the Prime Minister attends the EU talks; the talks in New York are being attended by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Clearly, the Foreign Secretary is engaged continually in talks, either in person or on the telephone, with all the main actors in this. All of us want to ensure that those suffering the vile attacks by Daesh that have shocked the world should receive not only compassion but help. We continue to give major help in humanitarian aid to the region. That will continue beyond the defeat of Daesh. We are already committing to continuing our assistance.

India: Human Rights

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, when we discuss human rights matters with countries around the world, we never allow issues about our economic relationship to get in the way of upholding international law and international humanitarian law, and it is important that that should be the case. I can say of course that during Prime Minister Modi’s visit to the UK, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister discussed intolerance in India with him. We should note that Prime Minister Modi has on numerous occasions reaffirmed his commitment to and respect for India’s core values of tolerance and freedom, as well as reaffirming the importance of social harmony and inclusive development. That is most welcome.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we have a thriving Indian diaspora in this country, and many British NGOs have counterparts in India and work very closely with them. However, the Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act 2010 in India does now inhibit the extent to which our NGOs and theirs can co-operate, and discriminates against British NGOs providing finance for their Indian counterparts. Have we raised that major and very illiberal Act with the Indian Government?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Lord is right to point to the importance of the work of the diaspora, which is a valued part of our community. We are aware of concerns that some Indian NGOs have about the use by the Indian Government of the Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act to which the noble Lord referred. We are monitoring the situation closely. When, for example, Greenpeace has made representations about the Act, we have encouraged it to pursue these matters through the courts in India.

NATO and the European Union

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to strengthen defence and security co-operation, bilaterally and multilaterally, with their European partners in NATO and the European Union.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, my aim in putting down this Question for Short debate is to draw attention to the constructive co-operation in defence which the UK now pursues with its neighbours within the context of NATO and the European Union. I am conscious that much more co-operation is going on than is reported in the British media—or even reported to Parliament. The gap between the rhetoric of national sovereignty and the realities of international interdependence has been demonstrated by the admission that French maritime patrol aircraft have been searching for non-NATO submarines in the Irish Sea, protecting the access routes to the UK’s submarine base for us while we lack maritime surveillance aircraft of our own.

The British public, and indeed most Members of both Houses of Parliament, remain unaware of how far Franco-British defence collaboration has moved since the Lancaster House agreement of 2010. Several major exercises between the two countries have been conducted—well covered in the French press but scarcely noted in the British. Co-operation in nuclear research and facilities is moving forward. Co-operation in defence procurement has continued to prove more difficult, but joint work on drones and missiles continues. It is a matter of regret to both Governments that the construction of the new British aircraft carriers reached a point in 2010 beyond which it proved financially unjustifiable to install catapults to permit the flexible operation of aircraft between British and French carriers. I remember the efforts that Liam Fox made to achieve this, sadly without success.

Small British contingents are working with their French counterparts in the Sahel, and the two air forces,

“work closely together on operations in the Middle East and North Africa”.

Also, a,

“Combined Joint Expeditionary Force, which will be operational in 2016, will provide a potent combined reaction force of up to 10,000 personnel available to plan for and respond to crises, including beyond Europe”.

I am quoting from page 52 of the SDSR White Paper. I wonder whether the Government will wish to celebrate the achievement of this significant step forward through any public ceremony or joint parade, to catch the attention of the public, or whether they will leave awareness to the tiny number of us who actually get as far as page 52 of the SDSR paper, with Ministers hoping that the Daily Mail and the Telegraph will not notice and that the French Government will not complain that our Government appear to want to keep its existence as private as possible.

I am struck that the SDSR paper makes no mention of the oldest and most closely integrated joint force in which we share with a close partner: the British-Dutch marine Amphibious Force, through which Dutch troops train in the UK and are integrated for operational purposes into the UK marine brigade. This was, after all, established in 1973, although I know from its website that joint operations between British and Dutch marines stretch back to the joint operation that captured Gibraltar in 1704. British and Dutch troops served together in Iraqi Kurdistan in 1991, and train together regularly in Arctic warfare. Yet I would guess that at most a dozen MPs are aware of the existence of this force, and I am not aware of any occasion on which the British Government have wished to publicise, let alone to celebrate, this pattern of shared defence that has been going on for more than 40 years.

The SDSR paper does mention,

“our partners in the Northern Group”.

However, it does not explain what the northern group is or how it operates. I have heard from Swedish and Baltic officials that the UK has played a very helpful and constructive part in assisting the development of integrated forces among the Nordic states, and in working with them to strengthen shared defence capabilities in the Baltic Sea, across the Baltic states and into the Arctic north. It is good to learn from others how much they appreciate the quiet work that British officers and men have undertaken over an extended period to assist states that are members of NATO and the EU, and some that are not formal members of one or the other of these two closely linked bodies. However, again, I regret that so few people in the UK have been told by our own Government what has been achieved.

Quietly, German tank forces and aircrew have trained in Britain over many years. The SDSR paper commits the Government to,

“intensify our security and defence relationship with Germany”.

That includes closer collaboration in procurement of equipment and common support facilities for common aircraft such as the Typhoon and the A400M transport. There is a passing reference to the withdrawal of the remaining British forces from Germany by 2020, and efforts that will be made to continue, nevertheless, joint training exercises with German forces. But there is no indication that our Government cherish the close collaboration that we have built up with the German armed forces in the 50 years since they were recreated, while a substantial proportion of the British Army and Air Force was stationed in Germany.

When in government, I argued that the withdrawal of British forces from their garrisons and bases across Germany, after 60 years and several generations of soldiers and airmen, with much interaction and some considerable intermarriage, should be marked by joint parades and ceremonies to celebrate the transformation of our relations and our commitment to future partnership. I was told by a Conservative Cabinet Minister that something like this was entirely unnecessary, that the Germans “are very transactional” and unemotional, and that in the circumstances a silent and unceremonious withdrawal was the best way to let sleeping dogs lie.

I welcome the slow but real progress that successive British Governments have made in developing closer co-operation with our European partners since Tony Blair first signed a bilateral treaty with the French in 1998. I actively supported the further moves forward made during the coalition Government between 2010 and 2015. I hope that these moves will go further: towards more common procurement, and the shared training and maintenance economies that go with it; towards more effective combined forces, both bilaterally and multilaterally constituted; and towards greater specialisation, rather than each European state struggling to hold on to smaller and smaller units in every military field. We all recognise the problems of sovereignty and command that follow such efforts, but they are not insuperable and not novel.

I recall meeting Liam Fox as I came out of an exchange in the Lords in which a Cross-Bencher had declared that it was unthinkable that British troops should serve under foreign command. His response was to list all the different NATO member states under whose rotating command British troops had served in Afghanistan, adding that some of our forces had also served under French command in the last year of the First World War, in 1917 to 1918.

I recall the French and German Governments building mutual confidence out of previous hostility through joint military parades and ceremonies, as well as through efforts at practical co-operation. The depth of German inhibitions over defence deployment has held that practical co-operation back until recently, although the recent German decision to deploy significant air, sea and land forces to the Middle East suggests that at last that inhibition is giving way.

Practical co-operation between the British and the Dutch has, as I have said, been close since the 1970s, and practical co-operation between British and French forces has developed with, I am told, growing mutual respect since contingents worked closely together under very difficult circumstances in Bosnia in the 1990s.

We all know why successive Governments—from Tony Blair in 1990-91 onwards—have shied away from spelling out to the British public the implications of unavoidable, mutually advantageous, defence co-operation with our neighbours. In 1990-91, the Daily Mail mounted a campaign against Franco-British and wider European co-operation, labelling it “the European Army”, and first Blair, and then those followed him, shied away. Eurosceptic myths have sunk into so many aspects of British public policy that it takes courage to disentangle reality from fantasy. Some in Brussels, and others in Berlin, have wanted to create fully integrated European forces with a common European command, but their national Parliaments would without doubt have refused to vote for their proposals, and issues of sovereignty and legitimacy would have blocked their overseas deployment.

Over the past 20 years or more, therefore, British Governments have found themselves in the uncomfortable position of pressing for closer practical military co-operation, spending more money on the defence of Europe than most of our partners and neighbours, while at the same time working desperately hard to downplay the significance of what they were doing for fear of domestic misrepresentation.

There are now, as the 2010 SDSR has already spelled out, no security threats to Britain that we do not share with our neighbours, so it makes sense to share our military response, as far as we can without abandoning the principles of national sovereignty and accountability, with our neighbours. It makes for more effective use of scarce resources and expensive weapons systems. Liberal Democrats have supported these efforts as they have slowly moved forward. However, our partners and neighbours read our newspapers, and some even watch our TV—the disadvantage of English as an international language is that it is easy for others to follow our domestic debate—and note the almost clandestine way in which our Government operate on defence co-operation, hiding its extent from Parliament and the public.

Having sat through innumerable interventions from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and others, insisting that NATO has nothing to do with the EU and the EU has nothing to do with defence and security, I was glad to see on page 53 of the SDSR White Paper some substantial paragraphs on the security dimension of the European Union, and the several EU operations in which British forces have played an active—sometimes even a leading—part. These included, most strikingly, the various operations around the Horn of Africa, such as Operation Atlanta, the anti-piracy force directed from the UK Joint Operations Centre at Northwood. That was another shared operation of which our Government should have been proud, but which they have made too little of.

If we are to move further along this path towards more effective co-operation, as the SDSR White Paper quietly recommends, we have to engage more widely with political elites in our partner countries to make sure that we build their support. It was, for example, a mistake for the FCO to cut its grant to the Franco-British Council by 80% in the latest spending review, when that council, among other activities, sponsors one of the most useful dialogues on defence and security between British and French parliamentarians and outside experts. The Government are right to wish to take European defence co-operation further—bilaterally and multilaterally—but wrong not to publicise it or celebrate it, which would help to build a broad base of public support both within the UK and within our partner countries.

Overseas Territories Joint Ministerial Council

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, this is clearly a work in progress, and progress has been made. I have seen the flow chart showing where red and orange have gone to green, and progress has been achieved. The noble Lord asked about similarly effective systems. It may be that in some of the jurisdictions a centrally-held register is not seen as the best way forward. However, we have made clear that, in working in partnership with the overseas territories, it is important to have good governance and transparency. As my honourable friend said this morning, the discussions that have taken place over the past two days have been set out in the communiqué, and all the territories with financial services sectors agreed to hold beneficial-ownership information in their respective jurisdictions via central registers or similarly effective systems. We then said that we would give the highest priority to discussing how to take that forward, and I hope that we will then be in a better position to give the exact details that the noble Lord requests.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, a number of houses in Windsor, Maidenhead, Kensington and Chelsea and various other safe Conservative seats in or around London are empty, either permanently or for much of the year. I have heard the Conservative Benches talking about this scandal, so this is a matter of great interest to the Conservative Party as well as to others. We were told after the G8 summit that the Prime Minister intended to establish publicly accessible central registers for beneficial ownership of companies in overseas territories and elsewhere. We appear not yet to have achieved central registers, nor even that our law enforcement and security agencies will have access to such central registers. How slowly does the Minister expect further progress to be made, and when can we at least ensure that the security services and police will have access to central registers in what are British sovereign territories?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, progress is being made on gaining access for the National Crime Agency to information that is held. It is important that we continue to do that work in co-operation with the overseas territories. We have been making progress, and I shall give some examples, which may help the noble Lord, Lord Collins, as well. Gibraltar will implement a central registry of company beneficial ownership in line with the EU fourth money laundering directive. Bermuda already has a central register. The British Virgin Islands have agreed to bring all beneficial ownership onshore, and the Cayman Islands are introducing a centralised platform. Montserrat will implement a central register with the information publicly available—though, I recognise, on the payment of a fee. Fruitful discussions have taken place on developing a timely, safe and secure information exchange process to increase our collective effectiveness for the purpose of law enforcement, in which, whatever our party or none, we all have an interest.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is too young to remember the 1975 referendum but while there was a decisive victory then, it did not stop those who lost the referendum from arguing within six months that it had been unfair and that the people had not really spoken, so they would continue their efforts. We have to recognise, sadly, that referendums do not solve matters for a generation and that the side which loses, even if it is defeated by a very large majority, is highly likely to say that it has been unfair.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hamilton for his analysis of how the government amendment has developed. It is not the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who pointed out that he was reflecting very much on the view of the Constitution Committee of this House. Noble Lords throughout the House of course respect the Constitution Committee, and therefore gave their support at Report.

Both my noble friend Lord Hamilton and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, have recognised the difficult balancing act that has to be achieved. This is indeed a complex matter. We have had to look carefully at how to craft the amendment so that we meet this House’s request that we discourage gaming the system, while avoiding penalising the person who is trying to avoid gaming and is actually the victim of it. We are also meeting the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins: that voices should be heard. My amendment has two aspects: broadcasting, and the maximum grant of £600,000. It is clearly up to the political parties to spend up to their limits, and others can of course spend up to £700,000. I will not rehearse in detail the whole panoply of what the spending limits comprise, but it was important to respond to the view of the Constitution Committee. We have sought to do that in a way which enables people clearly to see that it is better to take part, and take part honestly, than to try to game.

The Electoral Commission has indicated that, when looking at the designation of lead campaigners, it will expect campaigners to demonstrate the following: how the applicant’s objectives fit with the referendum outcome it supports, and the level and type of support for the application; how the applicant intends to engage with other campaigners; the applicant’s organisational capacity to represent those campaigning for the outcome; and the applicant’s capacity to deliver their campaign, including its financial probity. These are all matters we would expect the Electoral Commission to take into account.

I am sure that all noble Lords will join me in wanting this process to be firm and fair, so that the organisations representing views on either side can organise themselves such that they can present to the Electoral Commission a case which can be judged on its merits, and so the process can proceed with expedition. I urge my noble friend to do as he said and withdraw his Amendments 2 and 3 when they are called.

Syria

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Lord has rightly raised the question of the use of cluster bombs—and in the past, I believe, of chemical warfare—across the area by different groups. I have not seen the reports to which the noble Lord refers but I will certainly look into those. It is a matter of great concern that those who are seeking to defeat ISIL follow the normal international procedures.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we have an international coalition that is supposed to be focusing on ISIL. Are we in an active dialogue with our Turkish allies about the extent to which defeating ISIL rather than the Kurds is a main priority?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, indeed we are. The Turks are a valued ally in the fight against ISIL/Daesh, and we have regular conversations with Turkey on the basis referred to by the noble Lord.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Green. It is important that these matters of immigration, however unpalatable they may be sometimes, are brought out into the open. The point that he made, which I also made in my speech, though it did not seem to find favour with noble Baroness, is that we should also look at the consequences for this country of staying in the EU. This amendment touches on that and is worth supporting. Surely this will be one of the pivotal arguments. Again it might not be popular to say so, but immigration and control of our borders will be a major topic during this referendum campaign. To have something about it in the Bill would be very useful.

I hope the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Green, will find favour with the Government, because the public will certainly be interested in it, given the huge waves of immigration that are coming our way and will continue coming our way—I agree with the noble Lord—with huge consequences not just for numbers but also for infrastructure, schools, hospitals and accommodation. There are many consequences here and I know people are concerned about this. This is an important amendment to look at carefully and I hope the noble Baroness will follow that.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise for missing the first part of the noble Lord’s short speech. Since he referred to the population issue earlier, perhaps I might be allowed to say a few words. Incidentally, the reason the balance of competences report did not include population is that it is not one of the issues on which the European Union has any competence. There have been indirect references to population issues in one or two of the provisions of the treaties. I think it is the treaty of Amsterdam that has an obscure protocol in which the Republic of Ireland says that nothing in the treaties should be construed as countermanding Article 41 of the Irish state constitution, which is about abortion. While we are on the abortion issue, the efforts that Catholics in Scotland are now making to ensure that abortion law is not only not pulled up to the European level but pushed down to the Scottish level demonstrate that population issues are extremely sensitive.

[Lord Green of Deddington]

My point is not that population falls under EU competence. Our membership of the EU and the fact that we have no way of limiting the number of migrants from the European Union obviously feed directly into net migration, which accounts for virtually all the long-term haul of our population increase.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, I follow the Migration Watch UK publications in detail. One way or another, I have also been involved in migration issues since the end of the Cold War. One of the things by which I am most struck is that population and migration flows are very complex. When you close one door the flow comes in from another, as we see at the European level and also at the British level. It is very hard to close our doors more than we do.

The issue of secondary migration that the noble Lord raises in the second half of his amendment is also complex and delicate. I agree that it is one at which we need to look in more detail. But much of what Migration Watch does, and this amendment, ignores the important pull factor in British migration. I am struck, for example, that the newspapers in recent days have talked about the NHS going out to recruit additional nurses from abroad, while at the same time we are being told in the comprehensive spending review that the Government will cut nurse training and impose fees on nurse training in Britain. A better example of a pull factor in migration could simply not be found.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, no, of course not. If the noble Lord would care to read my peroration on this subject on 15 September, he will see that I opined that our first past the post system no longer produces a vibrant democracy in this country. The system which sends Members of Parliament to the House of Commons should be changed. Then one might find that the UK Independence Party would get one or two more seats.

As I was saying, Europhiles still try to frighten us that jobs would be lost if we left the EU. However, we would keep our free trade with the single market because we are its largest client. We have some 3 million jobs selling things to clients there, but it has 4.5 million jobs selling things to its clients here. Our Europhile friends then conveniently forget that only about 9% of our economy goes in trade with the single market, declining and in deficit; some 11% goes to the rest of the world, expanding and in surplus; but 80% stays in our domestic economy. Yet Brussels overregulation strangles all 100% of our economy.

Another Europhile silly one is to point out that we would still have to obey single market rules if we left the EU.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we are on Report. I have heard the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, repeat these familiar arguments many times in the House, but I am not entirely sure that we are addressing the amendment under discussion.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I think I am addressing it. I am going into the fundamental reasons why the amendment is misguided. I will continue, if I may. Only 9% of our economy goes to the single market and this is the percentage of our exports and economy for which we would have to follow EU rules. Of course we would, just as it pays to put the steering wheel on the left if you are selling a car to the United States.

Talking of cars, Europhiles give our car industry as one which would suffer if we left the EU. Once again, I remind noble Lords of Global Britain’s briefing note No. 96, which shows why that is nonsense. We import twice as many cars from the single market as we export to it—1.4 million in and 0.6 million out. EU manufacturers actually own 53% of our domestic car market. Why would they want to impose a tariff against their own profitable business? Indeed, I can go further and recommend that Europhiles particularly, and our civil servants, should take a little time to read the Global Britain briefing notes, which briefly but comprehensively destroy the economic case for staying in the EU.

In conclusion, the amendment makes the basic Europhile mistake of thinking that any area of our national life is funded by the EU, whereas of course for every £1 it sends us at the moment we have sent it £2.63. According to the latest Pink Book figures for 2014, we sent £19.994 billion gross in 2014 and the EU sent us back £7.665 billion for things such as our research budget, structural funds, farmers and so forth, as covered by the amendment. That leaves our net contribution at £12.329 billion per annum. That is £34 million a day, which goes down the drain in Brussels. Or we could look at it as the annual salaries of 352,257 policemen—of whom we could do with a few more right now—or nurses or any other public servant your Lordships may care to mention, at £35,000 a year each.

I would rather welcome the amendment if it were honestly fulfilled because the voters would understand better what a complete disaster is our membership of the European Union and they might even start to ask what is the point of the European Union itself. They might start to see it for what it is. It is an emperor whose clothes have long since fallen off.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Yes, Parliament has voted for it—but if we are having a referendum, everything is up for argument. The public have been given the right to dispute and to vote. Equally, paragraph (f) of the noble Lord’s amendment refers to,

“those regions of the United Kingdom that qualify for structural funds”.

I imagine that that would have a big impact in certain regions of the north of England, but other people in the south might attach equal importance to the fact that we did not have to make a budget contribution across the exchanges any longer.

The point that I am trying to make is that these things cannot all be reduced to black and white. The truth is grey: there is no such thing as complete impartiality in all these arguments. That comes back to a very important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, who quite rightly and with tremendous force reminded the House that we may be in danger of overstepping the mark. As I think he was hinting—although he had the graciousness not to say so—I suspect that a lot of these amendments are being put forward for rather self-interested motives from the side that people find themselves on in this argument.

So rather than seeking after some elusive impartiality that does not exist, let both sides slog it out in argument. Let the Government, as they have said, publish a White Paper saying what they think is the result of the negotiations and why they think we should stay in, if that is what they think—and they probably will—but let us not go beyond that into an area that is highly disputable. Each side can put its case best, rather than the Government trying to argue a case that they are fundamentally opposed to.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, let me simply add to what the noble Lord said. The last Government produced 32 reports on the EU balance of competences; I have painful memories of it. We covered the European arrest warrant. It was a process where we asked the opinions of experts and stakeholders throughout the country. We were as impartial as possible in that respect: civil servants reviewed the results and made an assessment of the balance of comments that had come back. So it is possible to be relatively impartial on all this. If we are to have a referendum, it is important that the people are as well informed as possible on the evidence that is provided.

[Lord Green of Deddington]

Before the noble Lord sits down, is he aware that the balance of competences review did not include the word “population”?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I have not checked all 2,500 pages of the report, but I cannot guarantee that I will do so as quickly as I read the speech in 2002 by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, when he reminded me that I had not referred to it. I have to say that I found it rather thin.

[Lord Willoughby de Broke (UKIP)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Pearson I welcome this group of amendments—perhaps, rather surprisingly—because it gives us the chance to get some facts out in this report. I hope that the noble Baroness will listen to the other side of the argument. Having listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said, I will try to confine myself to facts. Amendment 24C states:

“The report shall cover the possible consequences of withdrawal … upon … the United Kingdom’s economy”.

I think that on the whole that could be rather beneficial. We could get £20 billion back that otherwise we would send to the European Union. That £20 billion may not seem an awful lot of money to some noble Lords who tabled the amendment, but it is a substantial sum of money and would be Britain’s to spend as it sees fit. That is a fact. According to the Pink Book published at the end of October this year, £20 billion was our contribution in 2014.

When we talk about the economy, I know that behind this is the idea that if we were to leave the European Union our industry, the City and other sectors of our productive economy would be acted against and discriminated against by our erstwhile partners. I find that very unlikely. Again, according to the recent Pink Book, we have an annual trade imbalance with the EU of £107 billion. That is a Pink Book fact. What is also a fact is that Britain is the eurozone’s biggest single trading partner—bigger than the United States. We are Germany’s biggest single export market—bigger than the United States. I therefore find it really hard to believe that our trading partners, who have such a promising trade balance with us as their best market, would possibly want to destroy the interests of their best customer.

Going on down the list, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has already dealt with the rights of the individual. That of course is entirely up to the United Kingdom Parliament to decide, and no longer a matter for the European Union.

We move on down to law enforcement—new subsection (e) on law enforcement, security and justice. Again, I do not know whether the European arrest warrant is actually the best way to deal with matters. Obviously, we need some way of getting criminals back to face justice, but a prima facie case should be made in front of a magistrate in England before people are sent back to face systems of justice that are very different from ours—so I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on that.

As for security, of course, were we to leave the European Union we would have control of our borders again. That is arguably the most important thing of all when it comes to security at the moment. We see the chaos in Europe, with barbed-wire fences being erected and France putting up border controls. All over Europe now, people are debating whether free movement of people in and out of the EU is actually possible.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Willoughby de Broke]

My Lords, I want to pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. As a farmer—I declare my interest as a farmer—I remember getting this directive that we must advertise that we are getting money from the EU through the single farm payment, or what now is the basic payment scheme. Of course, my noble friend Lord Pearson made the point it is not EU money at all. It is money that is given to the EU by the British taxpayer—mulcted from the British taxpayer—and recycled through Brussels, who tell us what to do with it. It seems completely absurd that we have to put up a big sign on our fields saying how generous it is of the EU to give us this money. It is not. I, of course, alter those signs slightly to put a different twist on them.

On the broader point of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton—he made the case, I will not repeat it—it is essential that this provision be included in the Bill. Of course, the EU Commission has form when it comes to referendums, as we have heard, and I will not repeat the point. It is essential that Mr Jonathan Faull’s letter not be taken as gospel and that is the end of the story. Again, it is about fairness and the referendum’s being seen to be fair. It will not be seen to be fair if the EU Commission starts chucking its weight about, which it has always done and wishes to do in this case.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I regret that some Members of this House appear to regard the European Commission as a malign force that is out to do down the United Kingdom. Jonathan Faull is head of the task force sent by the Commission to negotiate the renegotiation with the United Kingdom, which is an entirely legitimate and useful thing to do. I have no doubt that our free press will be very watchful if the Commission does anything in the referendum that is seen by the Telegraph or the Mail as overstepping the mark.

I want to say something that links this amendment with the one we will be coming to next, which is about impermissible external funds. I am very conscious that the Russian Government are supporting a number of right-wing parties in other countries in western Europe, and that Russia is the only major state which is thoroughly in favour of Britain’s leaving the European Union. I am not in any sense suggesting that funds have begun to pass in any direction to anyone. However, when I was in government and involved in the Transparency of Lobbying Bill, we were much concerned about funds from other countries—from right-wing sources in the United States, for example—coming to various campaigning bodies in this country. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jay, touches on that issue.

Of course, we have to be concerned that this is a British debate and a British campaign, and that applies to all external actors. I think all of us agree that the Commission needs act extremely carefully. On the other hand, other Governments within the European Union will have their say, because they have national interests which they will wish to express. Therefore, the question of how we play this game—whether we would regard an intervention by the German Chancellor or the Dutch Prime Minister as untoward—is the sort of issue we will no doubt discuss. On the finances, we will wish to police this very carefully, but let us not go over the top. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, sometimes gives the impression that the enemy lies in Brussels and threatens to subvert our national sovereignty.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I think the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, hit the nail on the head when he said that transparency is key here. Obviously, the European Commission is acutely aware that any perception of interference in this referendum will have the opposite effect to what it intends.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, these amendments are totally without merit, but I just want to remark that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, has suggested that we need controls on the broadcast media. I assume he means we should be as tough on Sky as on the BBC, or perhaps he wishes to take on only the BBC under that heading. Perhaps we should take on all the media. We had a great debate about how much we need tougher press regulation. I am sure noble Lords would want to consider the biases of the Daily Mail and occasionally the Daily Telegraph, whose Brussels correspondent for many years was a joker called Boris Johnson, who used to make up the most wonderful stories, most of them entirely without basis, about what was wrong with the European Union. Is it perhaps that we are having an attack on just the BBC?

I have read in the Spectator and various other publications that, because the BBC has received a certain amount of money over the years, amounting to a maximum of 0.3% of BBC income for any given year—largely to fund the development of broadcasting in Serbia, Moldova and other eastern neighbourhood countries—it is unavoidably biased in favour of the European Union or perhaps has almost become a vassal of the European Union, which is the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.

The BBC does have a certain bias: it is a bias in favour of evidence—that may be the liberal bias, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. I know that evidence is sometimes a little difficult for some. The part of the “Today” programme that I find to be biased is its tendency to take the headlines in the Daily Mail as the basis for some of its stories. That is a bias with which I am rather unhappy.

The BBC has had two reviews in the past 10 years on accusations of bias, the Wilson review in 2005 and the Prebble review in 2013, both of which were thorough and both of which said that the BBC did not display a deliberate bias. I have seen Nigel Farage on “Question Time” more times than I really wanted to in the last 18 months. They have given him a fair crack of the whip. I do not see that the BBC should be pushed further in one direction or another. We understand what is going on. While the right-wing press’s dominance in the print media, with the competitive broadcast media interest that the Daily Mail and the Murdoch press have—hence their constant attacks on the BBC—is acceptable, the BBC, because it is seen to be prepared to explain how globalised the world has become and how difficult it sometimes is to manage national economies without a degree of international co-operation, must necessarily be biased. As I have said, there have been BBC reports; they have both cleared the BBC of bias. The accusation that the BBC has been significantly funded by the European Commission and is thus dependent on it is not valid.

[Lord Blencathra]

I was not suggesting that the BBC is so heavily funded that it is dependent on EU funding. The funding of £20 million over the past five years, running at around £3 million per annum, is not to be sneezed at. Floating voters, or the public, get 75% of their information from the broadcast media, not from the press. The press is largely irrelevant in influencing elections because it is read by people who are already committed. As far as press balance is concerned, the Mirror, the Guardian, the Independent and the Financial Times will be rabidly pro staying in Europe. That leaves the Times and the Sun sitting on the fence until Mr Murdoch does his opinion poll to decide who is going to win. The Telegraph will probably be against staying in and the Daily Mail probably will be as well. Finally, I respect the intellect of the noble Lord, but if he seriously thinks that the editors of the “Today” programme are spouting Daily Mail propaganda or taking that for their lead stories, he is living in another world.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I merely observe as a frequent reader of the Daily Mail that the broadcast media, in particular the “Today” programme, take their cues from the stories that are in the morning press, particularly the Daily Mail, which, as we all know, is the most influential printed newspaper in this country and we all follow it.

I think I have said enough. I see no merit in this amendment. I know where it is coming from. I have read those who have suggested that the BBC is significantly dependent on the EU as a result of this—that is part of the paranoia of the Bruges Group right. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, used the expression “rabidly” for those who are pro-European and “moderate” for those who are not. Again, that is a perhaps a matter of unintentional bias on the part of the noble Lord, but I leave it there.

[Lord Blencathra]

I applied “rabidly” to the Financial Times, which is more rabid than the Guardian in wanting to stay in Europe—and being wrong.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, whether he has actually read either of the two debates I referred to, from 11 March 2002 and 7 May last year? Is he also aware that the Wilson report of 2005, which was inspired by our analysis, found that the BBC was biased, both in its coverage and in what did not cover? It did not think it was deliberately biased but it was, nevertheless, biased at that time. Has the noble Lord also read the Civitas report on the Prebble whitewash of the BBC’s EU coverage, which was so incestuous as to be dishonest?

Finally, has the noble Lord read—and, if not, will he do so—the News-watch website, which goes into great detail and irrefutable fact on all these matters, and which comes to the conclusion that the BBC has been biased in favour of the project of European integration? I hope he will appreciate that I end my remarks with the hope that some small shoots are growing that give us the possibility that the BBC will be fair during the forthcoming campaign. However, I feel it needs some encouragement, at the very least from the noble Baroness when she responds to these amendments.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I deeply regret that I have not read the noble Lord’s debate from 2002 and I shall, of course, try to dig it out before I go to bed.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I am fascinated by these two amendments and by the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, being on both of them. They seem to call for completely different courses of action. I am reminded of the story of a crash between two Concordes in mid-Atlantic, with Henry Kissinger being found in both. The noble Lord should make up his mind. Is he in favour of an impartiality authority and a criminal offence, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra? I am particularly against that one: the creation of a new criminal offence requires a fair amount of thought. Or does he prefer, as I do, his own amendment? Actually, I am not really in favour of either of them. This is all a bit over the top.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Blencathra]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that incredibly robust response: it is a tougher response than I anticipated when I tabled my amendment. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that I was not “having a go” or probing: it was more a shot across the bow, or rather flagging up a very important issue, because we cannot have biased reporting in this campaign from any broadcasting media outlet.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

If this is to be brought back at Report, can we be assured that Sky and other broadcast media will be included in the coverage?