Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Debate between Lord Vallance of Balham and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Monday 10th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my technology interest as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

As set out in the manifesto, the Government are developing legislative proposals which will allow us to safely realise the benefits of the most powerful AI systems. The Government are also consulting on AI and copyright. Next steps, including on potential legislation, will be decided once all evidence is considered. The Data (Use and Access) Bill will enable the responsible deployment of solely automated decision-making, with stringent safeguards in place for individuals.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, with the world talking AI in Paris this week and with parts of the EU AI Act already brought into force earlier this month, is it not over time for the Government to bring forward AI legislation in the UK: for the jobseeker who constantly finds herself not making the shortlist, not even knowing that AI is in the mix, or for the creative constantly finding her work stolen by AI with no consent, no remuneration and no respect? Does the Minister agree that sector-wide AI legislation, ushering in right-sized regulation, is good for investment, good for innovation, good for creatives, good for citizens and good for all our AI futures?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

As the noble Lord points out, getting regulation right here is good for investment and good for business. We are taking the approach of regulation by the existing regulators for the use of AI. We intend to bring forward legislation which allows us to safely realise the enormous benefits of AI in the frontier space. Of course, in the Data (Use and Access) Bill, some of the issues the noble Lord raised are already addressed.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Vallance of Balham and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for his Amendment 38 relating to the ICO’s innovation duty. I agree with his comments about the quality of our regulators.

I reiterate the statements made throughout the Bill debates that the Government are committed to the ongoing independence of the ICO as a regulator and have designed the proposals in the Bill with retaining EU adequacy in mind. The commissioner’s status as an independent supervisory authority for data protection is assured. The Information Commissioner has discretion over the application of his new duties. It will be for him to set out and justify his activities in relation to those duties to Parliament.

To answer the specific point, as well as that raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, considerations of innovations will not come at the expense of the commissioner’s primary objective to secure an appropriate level of protection for personal data. I hope that reassures the noble Lord.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and thank the Minister for his response. I believe my wording would assist the ICO in its mission, but I have listened to what the Minister has said and, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for raising this topic through Amendments 47 and 48. I am very aware of this issue and understand the strength of feeling about reforming the Computer Misuse Act, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll.

As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, rightly pointed out, when I was the Government Chief Scientific Adviser I conducted a review making recommendations on pro-innovation regulation of technologies and I made recommendations on the issues these amendments raise. These recommendations were accepted by the previous Government.

The Government are actively taking forward these recommendations as part of the Act’s ongoing review. These issues are, of course, complex and require careful consideration. The introduction of these specific amendments could unintentionally pose more risk to the UK’s cybersecurity, not least by inadvertently creating a loophole for cybercriminals to exploit to defend themselves against a prosecution.

Our engagement with stakeholders has revealed differing views, even among industry. While some industry partners highlight the noble Lord’s view that the Computer Misuse Act may prevent legitimate public interest activity, others have concerns about the unintended consequences. Law enforcement has considerable concerns that allowing unauthorised access to systems under the pretext of identifying vulnerabilities could be exploited by cybercriminals. Without robust safeguards and oversight, this amendment could significantly hinder investigations and place a burden on law enforcement partners to establish whether a person’s actions were in the public interest.

Further work is required to consider the safeguards that would need to accompany any introduction of statutory defences. The Government will continue to work with the cybersecurity industry, the National Cyber Security Centre and law enforcement agencies on this issue. The Home Office will provide an update in due course, once the proposals have been finalised—or, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, they will pop out of the bowels of the Home Office in due course. With these reassurances in mind, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendments.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank everybody who has taken part in this short debate. I was really hoping that we would not hear the phrase “the bowels of the Home Office” twice, but we did—now we have heard it three times. Perhaps it could be the title of somebody’s autobiography. I do not know whose, but I claim the IP rights even though the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said it first.

I am grateful for the Minister’s response. It would probably have been better to have some sense of timeline; much of what he said was very much what we heard in Committee. We are all amenable to having a course of action, but it needs more objectives attached to it as to when we are likely to see some consequences, action and changes. As every day goes by, as the Minister is well aware, risks go unchecked that could be checked, people are less safe who could be made safe and economic growth, the Government’s priority, is prevented which could be enabled.

For now, I will withdraw my amendment, but I am minded to see what is possible between now and Third Reading, because the time is now; otherwise, “in due course” will be even longer than the official statement “later in the summer”. I beg leave to withdraw.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Vallance of Balham and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for his amendments on reviews of and consultations on large language models and data centres. First, on Amendment 59, as we have discussed in some detail, the Government are conducting their consultation on copyright and AI. This will consider issues relating to transparency of creative content in both input and output of AI. This would apply not just to large language models but to other forms of AI. Questions on the wider copyright framework are also included in the consultation, including the issue of models trained in other jurisdictions, importation and enforcement provisions.

A review of large language models, as required by this amendment, as well as the consideration of the specific provisions of copyright law, would prejudge the outcome of that consultation. I might even go so far as to say to noble Lords that the consultation and the process around it is, in a sense, the very review that this amendment seeks—or at least a range of ways may be suggested through that consultation to address these issues, which are important and might be more effective than a further review. I also remind noble Lords about the AI Safety Institute, which, of course, has a duty to look at some of the safety issues around these models.

I reassure noble Lords that we welcome those suggestions and will carefully consider which parts of the copyright framework would benefit from amendment. I reiterate that the proposals the Government have put forward on copyright and AI training will not affect the wider application of copyright law. If a model were to output a creator’s work without their permission, rights holders would be able to take action, as they are at present.

On Amendment 60, as the Prime Minister laid out as part of the AI opportunities action plan, this Government intend to secure more data centre capacity and ensure that it is delivered as sustainably as possible. Noble Lords will have also noted the investment that followed the investment summit targeted towards data centres. The Government are committed to ensuring that any negative impact of data centres is, where possible, minimised and that sustainability is considered. The noble Lord may well be aware of the creation of the AI energy council, which will be led by Secretaries of State for DSIT and DESNZ. That will consider the energy requirements and, of course, the need for future energy requirements, including things such as SMRs. The Government recognise the aim of this amendment, but we do not feel this Bill is the place to address this issue. The accompanying notes to the Bill will detail its environmental impacts.

Amendment 66 calls for a consultation on data centre power usage. The UK has committed to decarbonising the electricity system by 2030, subject to security of supply, and data centres will increasingly be powered by renewable energy resources. The first data centre site has been identified as Culham. Why is it there? It is because the UK Atomic Energy Authority has a very large power supply, with some 100 megawatts of electricity supply available. That will need to increase to something closer to 500 megawatts. How we will select other data centre sites will depend on where there is power and an appropriate ability to put those sites. Noble Lords can expect them to be distributed around the UK. The sector operates under a climate change agreement, to encourage greater uptake of energy-efficiency measures among operators.

Data centres themselves, of course, play a major part in powering the high-tech solutions to environmental challenges, whether that is new tech that increases the efficiency of energy use across towns and cities or development and application of innovative materials and new technologies that take carbon out of the atmosphere. The energy efficiency of data centres themselves is improving with new technologies and will continue to do so. Perhaps that was one of the features of the announcement of DeepSeek—exactly how that might advance rather rapidly. Closed-loop cooling, energy-efficient hardware, heat reuse and hot/cold aisle containment are already having an effect on the energy consumption and output of data centres.

The Government continue to monitor the data centre industry and are aware of the environmental impacts of data centres. I hope that, in the light of the points I raised, the noble Lord will be content not to press his amendments.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I thank everyone who took part in this short debate, in particular the Minister for that full, clear and helpful answer. In a spirit of throwing roses at this stage of the evening, I congratulate him and the Government on the quick identification and implementation of Culham as the first site for one of these centres. It makes complete sense—as he says, the power already exists there. I urge the Government to move with such speed for the remaining five of the first six sites. It makes complete sense to move at speed to identify these resources and the wider benefits they can bring to the communities where they will be located. For now, I am content to withdraw the amendment.

Artificial Intelligence Opportunities Action Plan

Debate between Lord Vallance of Balham and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

My noble friend is quite right. The energy issue is crucial for any plan for AI, and that is why the energy council is being set up. It is precisely why Culham is the first place identified; it has a significant energy supply already. We anticipate that the centres will be based around the country in places where there is renewable energy or where other sources of energy can be accessed easily in order to provide the power the centres require. It is also important that the council looks at the overall environmental impact, which will be part of this.

On energy consumption, it is known what is required for a single data centre and, as we need multiple data centres, the type and amount we will require is known. It is crucial that this is done on top of everything else that the energy is required for. This is a big and difficult problem, but we can already see an answer to it with the first identification of a site for the AI growth zone.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my technology interests as set out the register. I welcome the plan; it has 50 excellent recommendations, but does the Minister not agree that to bring these to life we need an arrowhead focus from government on broad AI legislation—much broader than what is currently planned—that includes an AI authority that is agile, nimbly focused and horizontally applicable; AI-responsible officers; the protection of creatives; and right-sized regulation that is good for citizens, innovators and consumers, in order to deliver according to the fundamental truth that these are our data, our decisions and our AI futures?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

I certainly agree that it is a significant challenge, and I add one other thing. The challenge is not only one of regulation of procurement and making sure that we have the data systems correct; it is one of making sure that we actually deliver, rather than talking about it. Delivery will be key, and we need a proper mechanism to deliver this in the form of a mission with real delivery outcomes. That is why I was pleased to see that we have very tight timelines on all the recommendations in the report. We must make sure that that happens and, as we do so, that we bring in the other necessary controls and actions to propel every part of this, from funding start-ups right the way through to procurement, and, as the noble Lord said, ensuring that we look after the privacy and autonomy of the data.

Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Debate between Lord Vallance of Balham and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Thursday 17th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my technology interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Lord Vallance of Balham) (Lab)]

My Lords, as set out in the King’s Speech, we will establish legislation to ensure the safe development of AI models by introducing targeted requirements on companies developing the most powerful AI systems, and we will consult on the proposals in due course. This will build on our ongoing commitment to make sure that the UK’s regulators have the expertise and resources to effectively regulate AI in their respective domains.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, with individuals having loan applications rejected off the back of AI decisions and creatives having their works ingested by GenAI with no consent or remuneration, would not the Minister agree that we need economy-wide and society-wide AI legislation and regulation for the benefit of citizens, consumers, creatives, innovators and investors—for all our AI futures?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

Thank you. It is an important area, and one where we have huge opportunities for growth. There is definitely the need for regulators to become upskilled in the ability to look at AI and understand how it impacts their areas. That is the reason we created the Regulatory Innovation Office, announced last week, to make sure that there are the capabilities and expertise in sector-dependent regulators. We also believe that there is a need for regulation for the most advanced models, which are general purpose, and of course cross many different areas as well.