Care Bill [HL]
Lord Turnbull Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Turnbull (CB)
My Lords, I welcome Amendment 40A and I am grateful to the Minister for listening to representations and responding to them. I always thought it was wrong that a special administrator investigating trust A could try to find a solution by plundering the resources of trust B, which was not in trouble, without giving it or its commissioning group the opportunity to make full representations. I also thought it was wrong that the Secretary of State could slip through what was in effect a restructuring of services in an area under the cloak of sorting out the problems in a particular trust.
However, there is a caveat and an unresolved issue that was hinted at by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. The provision to put the troubled trust and its neighbours on an equal footing in terms of making representations should not be interpreted as giving other trusts a veto on all restructuring proposals. The present set-up of the NHS already provides more than enough pockets of resistance to change that may be necessary to achieve greater efficiency and higher clinical standards.
Such proposals for reconfiguration should be looked at on their own merits, regardless of whether the hospital concerned is a foundation hospital or has been developed using PFI. There should be no presumption that an error by one trust in the amount of debt it takes on should be visited on those who are unlucky enough to be adjacent to it. There could then be a stalemate at the conclusion of this process whereby the commissioners of the adjacent trust do not agree to surrender resources and services. The question then is how these issues are to be resolved, not simply in the context of the failing trust but in the context of the local health geography.
Lord Horam (Con)
My Lords, we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for tabling an amendment to this Motion. I was present at the meeting yesterday, along with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, when we had a fruitful discussion on these issues. When I was the Member of Parliament for Orpington these matters were the bane of my life. The South London Hospitals Trust was a huge problem, as many noble Lords will be aware, with debts of around £150 million at one stage. Although at another period of my life I was a Minister for Health, I was specifically excluded from dealing with the problems of London hospitals because I was a London MP. It is ironic to get to a position of power where you might actually be able to do something for your constituency but then to be disempowered from dealing with it at all. None the less, that is the proper way to proceed.
It is worth bearing in mind that we have now got to a sensible position whereby there is parity in consultation, understanding and agreement between a commissioning group affected by the hospital trust’s special administrator and one which may be outside the trust and, therefore, nominally unaffected by it. Parity of esteem is the effect of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. I am grateful to the Minister for responding so positively on these matters: we have now reached a very sensible position. However, we should not believe that that is enough. It is a necessary condition for resolving some of these problems but it is not sufficient. Ironically, in the case of Lewisham and the South London Hospitals Trust, there was a very good consultation, called A Picture of Health, which lasted for two years and encompassed all the hospital trusts in south-east London. It was very extensive—and expensive, if I may say so—but it came to the wrong conclusion. The conclusion was that Lewisham should continue as a hospital trust on its own and that the other three principal hospitals—Queen Elizabeth, Woolwich, Princess Royal University Hospital, Bromley and St Mary’s, Sidcup—should all be put into one huge trust. That never worked and that particular trust has had to have special measures to deal with its financial problems.
That excellent consultation ultimately reached the wrong conclusions. Ironically, the rather more short-circuited consultations conducted by the special administrator led to rather better conclusions. We now have a solution on the Bromley side of things, as it is now a part of King’s College Hospital NHS Trust. It has effectively been taken over by it, which is a very sensible arrangement. St Mary’s, Sidcup is now doing other things—quite rightly because it is an old hospital and did not really have the facilities to run an accident and emergency department in the way that a modern hospital needs to do. Woolwich has been put in with Lewisham. We therefore have the makings of a better solution despite inadequate consultation. It shows that we do not merely need good consultation with everyone understanding what is happening; we need somebody to reach the right conclusions at the end of the day. I am referring here to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. He is absolutely right that there needs to be a way that the public interest—as well as the understandable more local interests—can be reflected, otherwise we will never make real progress.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made the important point that there are really big problems. We all have scars resulting from the closure of hospitals that sometimes have to be closed. He will be aware of the report last year by the NHS Confederation, the royal colleges and the organisation representing the patients’ voice, which said that up to 20 general district hospitals in this country need to be closed if we are to have a sustainable hospital service and a sustainable NHS. If we do not close those hospitals over a period, after consultation and so on, we will be taking money away from other parts of the NHS, such as mental health and GP services, which are badly needed. We cannot afford to keep hospitals going when they are in need of change.
The way in which change needs to happen is becoming apparent—there is a general consensus. First, there should be more specialist hospitals. I note that the King’s Fund says that A&E departments, maternity care, neonatal services, heart services and stroke care are all areas where specialist hospitals can give better care than general district hospitals do at the moment. That is already happening in London, certainly in the case of stroke care. The number of hospitals has been reduced and stroke care has immeasurably improved, I think to the tune of 50% over the previous two or three years. Equally, of course, the other aspect of this improvement is bringing care back to the community and taking it away from hospitals. People do not want to go to hospital; they think they will get an infection or a disease, apart from anything else. People die as a consequence of being in hospital. We therefore need to bring care back to the community. However, all of that takes time.
I therefore agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, that we cannot allow ourselves to get into a situation where everybody defends every brick of every local hospital. We all know what happens. As soon as there is a threat to a local hospital the local MPs and the local newspapers get on their high horse, the campaigners come out and there are parades down the street, and no one can move an inch. I hope that noble Lords can see this legislation in the round. It provides for the proper, equal consultation of all interested parties, but we should not put road blocks in the way of necessary change in the NHS. If we do, we will have done the NHS a very bad service.
Health Transition Risk Register
Lord Turnbull Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Earl Howe
There are two points in answer to that. I am aware that in London, in particular, there is an issue for some patients wishing to see their GP; indeed only two days ago I had a useful conversation with the Royal College of GPs about that very matter. However, that particular issue has nothing to do with the reforms that the Government have just enacted, but relates to the supply of GPs. We have many more GPs than we had 10 years ago. Unfortunately, however, we need more. There is a target every year for recruiting GPs but we have not quite reached that target in the past three years. We need to do something about that. Action is in hand to address the issue that the noble Lord has raised. However, I would impress on the House that it is not a reflection of the reforms. The reforms have only just been enacted, and we are only now just rolling them out.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Turnbull Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I am very interested in the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. He seemed to be setting a rather different standard, well above that imposed by the Freedom of Information Act 2000. I have no doubt that the Minister will deal with that argument when he comes to it. However, I believe that the question for the House today is whether we support the Department of Health’s right to appeal against the Information Commissioner’s decision. This has been a much more finely balanced decision than I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is prepared to credit, which I find somewhat surprising given her recent role in government. In this kind of situation, with a qualified exemption under the Freedom of Information Act, it is all about whether the balance of public interest is served by disclosure or non-disclosure. The arguments put forward to the commissioner were in relation to two essential aspects. First, there is the “safe space” argument: the importance of government having the freedom to debate policy and make decisions,
“without being hindered by external comment”.
Secondly, there is the “chilling effect” that disclosing information relating to a particular policy, while that policy is still being formulated or developed, could have on,
“the frankness and candour with which relevant parties make future contributions to that particular policy debate”.
These are perfectly respectable arguments and that is why the commissioner found that the factors are finely balanced, as my noble friend Lady Williams said. In the light of the particularly strongly held views of the department—and I believe that these are genuinely held—it seems that it is entirely valid for the department to appeal to the First-tier Tribunal.
However, I agree very strongly with my noble friend that time is of the essence in this case. There is little point on a decision on appeal not being made until March or April; because, as my noble friend has pointed out, the Bill will probably have passed through this House entirely by then. To mitigate the possibility of that kind of delay, my noble friend’s suggestion is entirely right and sensible. The Department of Health and the complainants should apply to the First-tier Tribunal for an expedited hearing. This is well within the tribunal’s case-management powers under paragraph 5 of the procedural rules, which were last set out in 2009. Of course, this is a discretionary power, but I believe that any tribunal would recognise the need to resolve these matters quickly, particularly in the light of the debates we have had in this House. I believe it would be extremely helpful in the circumstances if the Minister indicated the department’s willingness to proceed along these lines. I hope that my noble friend can give a positive response today, even if further time is needed to prepare the case on both sides.
Lord Turnbull
My Lords, I was not involved in the earlier exchanges in this House on this issue. Coming to it new, my view is that first, there is a very important issue of public policy here; and secondly, the FOI process, still less the procedural devices in the course of this Bill, is not an effective way of resolving the issue.
The issue is this: in what way should public authorities report on risk ex ante and account for their management of it ex post? A ruling on a request for a specific document from a specific department is, in my view, incapable of addressing that issue adequately.
Let me declare an interest: I am a director of Prudential plc. This, in the jargon, is a SIFI—a significant financial institution—and, as such, it is now required to have a separate risk committee. In the rest of the plc world, risk is still dealt with as the work of the audit committee. I am a member of that risk committee. Looking at its experience, one can identify three categories of material. First, there is a definition in the annual report of the risk universe and the organisation’s risk appetite: capital risk, liquidity risk, credit risk, operational risk, and so on. In addition there is a definition of the organisation’s appetite for risk.
Secondly, the annual report has material on how risk is managed—the so-called three lines of defence: front-line managers, the risk function at the centre, and internal audit. There is then a third category of information. It might be about the risk of falling below a particular level of capital, or the danger of not finding enough liquidity at a crucial time, or the danger that the key supplier might fail or that IT systems might be interrupted. There are also watch lists: what banks or counterparties does one not want to increase one’s exposure to? This is often set out in the diagrams with which many Members of this House will be familiar, in red, amber and green, showing impact, likelihood, a combined score and then the mitigants.
Very little of this category of information is disclosed, for a very good reason. Discussing it can risk making it more difficult to manage the case in question and in some circumstances might crystallise the very event one is trying to avoid. The same should apply to public bodies. Mention has been made of the chilling effect—that is, officials being reluctant to give candid advice more or less in real time. There is also something that has not really been covered by the Act, which I call the “crystallisation effect”. Managers might be reluctant to be frank in public about operational difficulties if that would undermine their ability to make contingency plans or could trigger an event before their plans are ready.
In my view this is the wrong way to resolve this issue. Where the line should be drawn, what is reported and what is withheld should not be decided on a case-by-case basis. The Information Commissioner—indeed, the whole of the FOI Act, in my opinion—is afflicted by the fallacy of composition. Because something is desirable in case A, it will also be desirable in all cases, if all cases alike are treated in the same way. However, if I stand up to get a better view of a football match, I will improve my view; if we all stand up, none of us will. The fact that one cannot take cases in isolation is perfectly illustrated in this case. The Information Commissioner issued a decision on 2 December on a request from the risk register on the NHS reform programme. Yet only the day before, he issued a decision on a different request, I think from a different complainant, on the strategic risk register. It is fanciful to think that those things could be decided independently or that they could be isolated from what happens in the rest of the public sector.
How, therefore, should this issue be dealt with? Not, as I say, by requiring the release of a particular document originally written for a different audience. It would be better if the Information Commissioner had recommended that the Government should set in hand work involving the man known as HOTGAS—the head of the Government accountancy services—and the NAO, to create a framework of best practice on what should be provided in departmental reports, and what operationally should be withheld. It is normally the case that public accounting standards in the private sector have developed over time and the public sectors usually follow with a lag. The reporting of risk and of risk management is in my view the next area for improvement in the public sector accounts, and the role of the CAG should then be to police whether those principles are being followed. In the case of this Bill, I hope that the Minister can be as forthcoming as possible on what the risks are without creating any of the perils that I have indicated.
The Information Commissioner has made a decision so it goes to the tribunal, and the Government’s case would be greatly improved if they were able to indicate that they supported the kind of initiative that I have suggested. Meanwhile, I hope that the noble Baroness, in the light of any assurances and further information from the Minister, will not press her amendment, but if she does I hope that the House will support the Government, on the understanding that the reporting of risk is the next issue to be advanced across public bodies as a whole.