Health and Social Care (Safety and Quality) Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Wednesday 18th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ribeiro (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope your Lordships will allow me just one minute. I do not intend to oppose this Bill, but in Committee I expressed some concerns about the possible unintended consequences of Clause 1. In fact, I have withdrawn an amendment I had intended to move that would have tried to mitigate some of these consequences by pointing to a rather better way of avoiding harm to patients by proper education, training and supervision within hospitals and care homes which would lead to a continuing, progressive reduction in harm but without stifling innovation. I withdrew my amendment because I was told that I would cause the Bill to fall and I have no intention of doing that. But I do hope, at least, that the noble Earl will be able to offer some reassurances on the points that I have raised.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, following the disruption of medical education that followed on from the MTAS debacle in 2007, one of the outcomes, which was a positive one, was the development of schools of surgery—a concept that we took on from the anaesthetists. This required personnel from the Royal College of Surgeons and the deaneries to take responsibility for the delivery and planning of training and education. However, this was very much confined to trainees. There was no requirement to extend it to consultants in terms of CPD.

However, we all know that health education does not end with certification; it is a continuum that occurs throughout one’s career as a professional doctor. It is a requirement to keep up to date. It is a requirement by the GMC to ensure that one knows what is happening within the wider medical field. One of the problems for doctors is having the time to go away and attend courses to improve one’s CPD. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, places an obligation on HEE and the LETBs to support CPD and, in doing so, to allow the release of NHS staff, as he quite rightly said, to attend courses and educational programmes. It is also important to provide consultants and medical personnel of all disciplines with the opportunity to work in the wider NHS. It has been one of the basic tenets of the NHS that contributions in the wider NHS benefit not only the NHS but the participants, who learn a lot more about its workings. That, too, can improve and enhance one’s continuing development.

In that context, I welcome the suggestion made today several times by speakers—certainly by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, in that he made reference to the Francis report. One thing that came out of the Francis report was a clear statement that he would recommend that the GMC and the royal colleges work together in providing visits to educational centres. That was stopped some time ago. I think that there is a real opportunity to reintroduce that and I hope that the Minister, in responding, will address that issue. Here again is an opportunity, because in the past lessons were learnt by consultants visiting hospitals and looking at the education provision.

The very presence of peer groups in a hospital often helps to raise standards. Therefore, not only would CPD provide another training opportunity for those who participate but it would improve local education provision. The quality assurance of the training it would provide would ensure that, in the long term, patients benefited from such visits. For that, if nothing else, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. We need to include something on continuing professional development because the whole emphasis of HEE is very much on training and trainees and it has very little to do with those who continue right through to retirement.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I, too, strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. Like him, I am concerned and rather surprised that there is no mention in the Bill about the need for trusts and other providers to support their staff in continuing professional development. We really cannot afford to have any staff working in front-line clinical services not keeping up to date when we know that clinical practice changes rapidly from month to month.

New tests, new diagnostic methods and new treatments are coming along fast and furious. Unless members of staff are given the time and facilities to keep abreast of all of those, we will get poorer and more out-of-date care. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, it is unfortunately the case that when health budgets are stretched, as they almost always are, CPD budgets are the first to go. Time off to attend courses or to engage in appraisals disappears quickly, as everyone in the service is rushed off their feet.

It is in just those circumstances that a stand should be made. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, makes it clear that the LETBs must include the need for employers to allow the time for CPD development of their staff. How else will doctors, for example, be able to comply with the mandatory requirement of the GMC to revalidate at regular intervals? We have struggled both long and hard to get revalidation mandated and we cannot afford to see it eroded now at the same time as the responsibility for funding CPD is falling to employers. LETBs must be given the teeth to insist that time and support for CPD are included in their educational contracts with trusts.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, my name is on this amendment, and I wish to say a few words about it. First, I welcome the amendments moved by the Government in Committee which give the Secretary of State a duty to secure medical education and training. A comprehensive health service cannot be achieved without a properly trained and educated workforce. Health Education England, as a Special Health Authority, not only must be given the authority to influence the function of local education and training boards in the short term, as it is established this year, but must influence local providers of all sorts—private, NHS or any other type—and other organisations responsible for the education and training of their workforce.

The influence of Medical Education England and the Medical Programme Board, of which I was a founder member after the MMC/MTAS débâcle, will provide HEE with invaluable information about the oversight of doctors and dentists. For that reason, I believe there should be a medical director of MEE within HEE. While I welcome funding for education resting with Health Education England, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, I remain concerned that the education levy will be raised from providers who may not have the same objectives and consider that their obligation to patient care trumps their obligation to provide training.

I have concerns about who should be responsible for quality assurance and through that for quality improvements. I believe it would be best to have this done at national level. The LETBs and providers cannot be judge and jury in relation to quality assurance and the principle of independent assessment and assurance must be maintained. Quality control and quality management are local functions, currently performed by the deaneries. Quality assurance and quality improvement, which imply that after the assessment lessons can be learnt and good practice passed on, must be at national level. They must have input from the profession to provide the appropriate oversight. In this regard, royal colleges, as national bodies, are ideally placed to assist deaneries in providing independent quality assurance and quality improvement. I hope the Minister will give assurances that this will be the case.

More specific functions of HEE as a Special Health Authority are outlined in Amendment 16. It may present more of a problem for the Government as the role and function of the LETBs are not defined in the Bill. If they are to take responsibility for funding, then the lessons of the strategic health authorities’ 2006 raid on the education budget to balance the NHS budget must be learnt and the education and training budget must be ring-fenced to prevent this happening. I hope the Minister can give the House assurances on this point.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, my name is also attached to Amendment 13. The case has been very well made by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, so I have very little to add, except that it is obvious that education and training are a key part of any service provision. For a service under pressure, looking after the patients always comes first, and it is very difficult in some circumstances to provide the time that education and training need. It takes a bit longer in an outpatient clinic to teach a young medical graduate; it takes longer in the operating theatre, I suspect, to show how it should be done. It takes time to allow junior trainees to go on education courses and rotations. The pressure on a service is always to concentrate on caring for the patients, and education and training can easily be given a back seat. This amendment helps straighten that balance.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for her comments about integration, because I agree with her that we do not have a clear definition. On page 18 of the Bill, new Section 13M is headed:

“Duty as to promoting integration”.

Although the words “integration” and “integrated” are used in the section, there is no clear definition. Yet, in new subsection 4, there is an attempt to define “health-related services” and “social care services”, but not until new Section 13Z3 is there an interpretation which tries to define the “health service” and “health services”. We do need some clear definition of what we mean by integration. Let me tell you what I thought integration meant, when I first took on an interest in the Bill, and I will illustrate it with some examples.

Integration, for me, was not being able to talk to my GP colleague about a patient without having to go through the PCT. I could not just pick up the telephone and say, “I’ll see your patient next Friday”. It had to go through a bureaucratic system before the patient got to me.

From a clinical point of view, when I was referred a patient with gallstones on a Monday morning clinic, after discussing and examining the patient, confirming that she did indeed have gallstones—and I used to have an ultrasound machine in my out-patient clinic, so it was easy to make the diagnosis—I said to her, “I think we can deal with this quite easily with a keyhole operation to remove your gallbladder, but I suspect you may also have an ulcer in your stomach, so before I put you on the list for surgery, it might be a good idea to exclude that”. I went down the corridor to see my gastroenterology colleague, told him about the problem, and he said, “Not an issue, bring her along, and I’ll see her”. Before I knew it, I had had a phone call saying, “I will deal with her next Thursday and gastroscope her”.

The net result of that was that within a week we had an answer for the lady, and I was able to put her on the waiting list for surgery. However, when choice and tariffs came in, it was essential, for the hospital to be paid, that when the patient came to see me in the outpatients’ clinic and was diagnosed with gallstones, I would have to refer her back to her GP, who would then make another consultation with the clinician gastroenterologist in order for her to have the endoscopy to diagnose her ulcer. Those were two inconvenient visits for that patient, purely to fulfil the need to manage the tariff and the issues around choice.

For me, an integrated service gets rid of all those barriers. We should also remember that this is the Health and Social Care Bill; it is about integrating services from the beginning to the end. I have tremendous sympathy and support for Amendments 103 and 290, from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, because they are about getting rid of episodic care. It was precisely the episodic tariffs that required my patient to make two visits to the hospital when one would have done. I hope the Minister will take this into consideration when reviewing this. It is important that we find a formula, or a way to look at the care pathway, and find a way to cost that, rather than the episodic costing of care.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 103, 104A, 106, 135A, and several of the others in this group. Clause 20, new Section 13M, highlights integration of services as something the Commissioning Board should “exercise its functions” to secure,

“where it considers that this would—

(a) improve the quality of those services”.

That is all well and good, but by itself it seems insufficient. Integration is of course difficult to pin down. We have heard quite a bit about that this evening, and I will not repeat those remarks. I know what I mean by integration, so I will give you my particular understanding, for the purposes I want to talk about, using the term to mean a seamless service for those patients, usually elderly and with multiple diseases, who need both hospital and community care, and flit between the two.

It is unfortunately the case that the integration that is needed between health and social services has seen so many failures and been so elusive, despite many wasted words. We have an opportunity here to correct these failures, so I was somewhat disappointed when the Minister said in the debate on 2 November, when we were discussing the role of the Secretary of State, that the Government were,

“not in the business of dictating the processes”—

and that—

“integration is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition of a good outcome”.—[Official Report, 2/11/11; col. 1334.]

Surely if integrated care is a good thing—and I think few will deny that—then we must give a lead on how it might be achieved. We cannot ignore the process, and must at least try to see what conditions are necessary for successful integration. We should not go around simply saying it is a good thing, without showing how it might be achieved.

There are many examples out there that we can build upon. We are not entirely in uncharted territory. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, mentioned Assura Cambridge and services in Torbay in our last debate, and other noble Lords spoke of Kaiser Permanente, Northern Ireland, personal health budgets and information sharing, as valuable means to an end.

We also have the excellent report from the Nuffield Trust, Integration in Action, that analyses successful integration being carried out in four places across the world, including in Scotland. We are not working in a vacuum, and we could and should take advantage of all this information, and incorporate some of those ideas in the Bill without waiting for yet further work.

Of course, not everything can or should be put in the Bill, but we should see where we can strengthen it, by including more pointers to how we can improve the present, very unsatisfactory, position. Let me give some examples, leaning heavily on the Nuffield Trust report. First, the Commissioning Board should point the way by developing commissioning for bundled payments, and local tariffs for key conditions. I think that is possible. At the moment, fees for service for episodes of hospital care, as we have heard, work against integration with community service. That is something that the board should seek to redress quickly.

Secondly, we should design the national tariffs that we have heard about, which incorporate a full care pathway across the health and social service divide. Monitor and the board should work together to develop a pricing strategy that provides the incentives for integration. They should also develop ideas about how outcome measures, which are admittedly difficult to quantify when we are talking about a complex system like integrated care between hospital and social care, can be used to promote integration across the whole pathway of care. Contracts based on those measures can encourage providers to respond to the need to integrate. There is nothing here that obviates competition between providers, which I am sure will please my noble friend Lord Warner.

We will come later in the Bill to Monitor, but it too should link improvements in outcomes, including the patient’s experience, to the way it regulates integration. Then, there are several measures that clinical commissioning groups and local authorities should be encouraged to develop by the Commissioning Board. One huge area is of the improvements we desperately need in the flow of information between hospitals and community. Too often we rely on phone calls on the day of discharge, which is inefficient and fails most of the time. We should have an IT system which allows information to be shared across the divide. It only requires a competent programmer to produce the programme, and a safe system for preserving patient confidentiality and data protection. I am sure that that is not beyond our capacity.

There is also the need for joint funding and integrated governance arrangements, which we have had some discussion about. This is much easier said than done, but it can be done. We have seen it in action here and there and we must spread the good practice.

There is also the need for people to make the whole thing work on the ground: for example, liaison officers whose sole responsibility is to ensure that patients pass seamlessly across the divide, and nurses and doctors who move without constraint from one sphere to another. The example of specialist district nurses is a good one. They follow patients from hospital to the community and back, and are very much appreciated. Unfortunately, they are a threatened species and are disappearing, largely because neither the NHS nor local authorities will fund them. We must get around that problem.

Of course, much of what is needed depends on a change in the mindset of those working at the coalface in hospitals and the community. If through the Bill we can change the conditions from those that inhibit collaboration to those that encourage it, we can begin the process. The amendments bring a greater sense of the need to focus more strongly and urgently on the duties and responsibilities of the board in putting integration more firmly on the map as a way of improving outcomes. I support them strongly.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I am also pleased that public health receives such a high profile in this Bill. I speak to Amendment 60B and one or two others in this group. There seem to be several aspects to the public health parts of this Bill being probed by these amendments. However there is one area of public health that might fall between too many bodies and where we might usefully explore how we can arrange for them to be better co-ordinated. The area is child and maternity services.

As I understand it, local authorities will be responsible for child public health services; the Commissioning Board for health visitors and immunisation services; and clinical commissioning groups for child health and maternity services. That will require all sorts of collaborations to be set up, and that is always a recipe for some problems. I hope that the noble Lord can give us an idea of how these sets of services can be rationalised in some way.

I shall now speak to Amendment 62 and some others. Clause 8 describes the Secretary of State’s duty to protect the public’s health. It details a number of specific responsibilities which, it so happens, are currently undertaken by the Health Protection Agency. I would like to comment on them. I have extolled the virtues of the HPA on a number of occasions, having observed it closely as the chairman of its predecessor, the PHLS, some years ago. Incidentally, the hero of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, is an employee of the Health Protection Agency. It is a remarkable organisation and the envy of the world. It jumps on outbreaks of infection very rapidly and has prevented many an epidemic. There are many examples of that.

I reiterate this because the HPA is to be swept up into a new arrangement, as we have heard, much more directly under the influence of the Secretary of State. Thank goodness it will not be within the Department of Health, but it will be very close to it. My fear is that we will weaken something of great value to the country. I have some specific questions for the noble Earl.

First, is it expected that all the current functions of the HPA will be taken on board, or are we to lose some? The list is pretty comprehensive but it may leave things out. If so, what would be lost and what would be preserved? Secondly, is it intended that all the staff will move across? They currently work as a very efficient and effective team—a lean, mean team—and any break-up will have an effect. Thirdly, is funding to be affected in the changeover? Will the new organisation have access to external research grant income? That is very important if it is to keep ahead of the infections, which keep changing every day. I have mentioned this before and the noble Earl has responded, but I should like him to respond again more forcefully on whether the organisation will have access to the Wellcome Trust grants, the Medical Research Council and others outside of the NIHR. One of the duties of the Secretary of State is to take steps that include,

“the conduct of research or such other steps as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”.

Finally, will the body have the degree of independence that will allow it to give advice to the Secretary of State unfettered by Civil Service restrictions?

I hope that the noble Earl can help us with these questions, because there is considerable unease in the HPA at the moment.

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, I should like to speak very strongly in support of Amendment 65 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. Were the noble Lord, Lord Patel, here today, I am sure that he would also speak strongly in support of it because he raised the issue of patient records yesterday when we had a meeting with Professor Steve Field of the Future Forum. We were discussing information provision for patients and the use of computer records. He said that for many years when working in maternity he had given patients their own notes, and in all that time he could remember only two occasions on which the notes had gone missing. On one occasion, the patient reported that a dog had eaten the notes and, on the other, the notes were left on a bus and shredded, someone having recognised that they were important. Therefore, only two sets of notes were lost over a period of some 20 years. Patients are perfectly capable of looking after their own notes. When I was a surgeon in Ghana in 1974 it was certainly quite common for patients to come to the clinic with their notes, which often would otherwise have been lost.

The final message that came through was that we have spent billions of pounds on creating paperless records and computer records and are about to spend even more. The information that we were given yesterday at the Future Forum was that we should be looking at what can be done locally, bearing in mind that GPs have a computerised system of records. We heard another anecdote about an old lady who went to the out-patients’ clinic for her appointment and the consultant said, “I’m terribly sorry but we’ve lost your notes today”. She put her hand into her handbag and came out with a memory stick, saying, “Doctor, it’s all on here”.

I hope that the Minister will take note of Amendment 65 because I feel that it may well stimulate us to look again at patient records and the use of technology. We are, after all, in the 21st century and, although paper records are wonderful for us to have as a tactile instrument, they do not always contain the information that we need.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 40A and 199ZA in my name. I also want to comment on some other amendments in this group. I speak as a one-time medical researcher, a trustee of a number of medical research charities, and as a scientific adviser to the Association of Medical Research Charities. In that I work closely with my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Willis.

Research, as we have heard, is not an optional extra. It cannot be added on to the NHS as and when someone thinks it is needed; it is a vital and integral part and it is good to see an acknowledgement of that in the Bill, even if it falls a little short of full endorsement. Research is no cottage industry, with more than £1 billion coming from the research charities every year and almost the same amount going in from each of the Medical Research Council and the NIHR. That is a total of around £3 billion a year. As for the Department of Health’s contribution of almost £1 billion, I want to say how much Dame Sally Davies's role in securing that is appreciated, as indeed is that of the noble Earl who has been a great ally. However, Amendment 42 raises the question of whether this funding is secure for the future.

I can only re-emphasise what the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Warner, have said. Even though research funding amounts to less than 1 per cent of the NHS budget—a pitifully small proportion in an organisation of this size—can we be reassured that it will not fall easy victim to the cuts we are going to see over the next few years? Is it really essential for this to be distributed through the Commissioning Board? Is it possible that it could come more directly via the Department of Health? I hope that the noble Earl will give us some comfort on this amendment. This is clearly of some importance and we almost certainly will have to come back to it at a later stage.

As we have heard, medical research in the United Kingdom punches way above its weight. By any measure, our outputs of research findings come high in any international league table and the fruits of our research are having a major impact on our health. We are living longer and healthier lives and one has only to look around your Lordships’ House to see evidence of that. I suspect that there are few of us who are not taking one or more pills, keeping us in fine fettle. As the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said, the public at large is well aware of the benefits. According to a number of surveys, more than 90 per cent of patients and the public want us to do this research and, furthermore, want to be engaged in it as patients. They want this even if it does not benefit them directly but benefits only future generations. However, they also know that any patient who is part of a trial incidentally gets a better deal and better care as part of the research process.

They are enthusiastic supporters but that is not the only reason why we should be supporting research. There are considerable economic benefits too. The most recent of several studies that have shown this, Medical Research: What's it Worth? supported by the Rand Foundation and the Wellcome Trust, clearly showed that we gain between 35 and 40 per cent return per annum for every pound we put in. Although it takes several years for research done now to bear fruit—today it is coming from research done some years ago—the returns come from less sickness and absenteeism from work, greater productivity and less sickness benefit payments.

Research is a good thing all round and this Bill is a great opportunity to make sure we gain its full benefits. Amendment 39 emphasises the need for the Secretary of State to take his expressed desire to support research seriously and I strongly support that amendment. Amendment 199ZA, in my name, brings the same pressure on to the clinical commissioning groups and alters the wording in exactly the same way. It is at this level where I fear we have seen one of the biggest obstacles to promoting clinical research up to now. The same survey I mentioned earlier showing that patients are keen to be involved in research also showed that GPs by and large were antipathetic to and at best uninterested in research. Few GPs engage in research directly themselves, but that is not the main problem. It is their unhappiness at having to spare any time, for example, in seeking the approval of their patients for them even to be approached by researchers and asked for their consent.

Researchers have to ask patients for consent but can do so only if the GP asks the patients for them first, and they are not at all keen. They say that there is not enough time. Yet their role is critical, not only to facilitate clinical research performed by others but to be responsible, through the CCGs, for commissioning those extra support costs that arise when research, funded by charities, the MRC and so on, is carried out. Research on patients supported, for example, by the British Heart Foundation or Cancer Research UK, often results in additional costs due to extra visits or more routine blood tests. Traditionally these should be funded by the commissioners of services. This Bill provides just the opportunity we need to make sure that those at the coal face, responsible for commissioning, can facilitate and fund this research.

I hope the Minister will consider the need to accept this or a similar amendment and examine how we might provide the inducements necessary to GPs and CCGs. A failure of CCGs to take on responsibility for creating the right environment in which we can gain the full value of external funders will be damaging.

I come now to the difficult issue of the use of patient data. How can we make sure it is possible to use clinical information about patients for research purposes? New Section 14X, to be inserted by Clause 23, describes the duties of clinical commissioning groups to promote research and includes the need to promote the use of evidence obtained from research for improving the health service. That is very good, but it says nothing of the other way round; of how we can use patients’ data for research purposes. The amendment in my name, Amendment 199ZA, emphasises this point. The difficulty has been well rehearsed: how does one gain access to identifiable information about patients for research into their diseases while at the same time protecting their confidentiality and giving them all the reassurances that they need? It so happens that well over 90 per cent of patients are happy for information about them to be used for research, but the current system of safeguards goes well beyond the requirements of the Data Protection Act and is stifling much important research.

When data about patients are fully anonymised—a horrible word—and it is impossible for anyone including the researchers to identify a patient, then there is little or no trouble. However, when it is necessary for the researchers to know who the patients are, we get into problems. If, for instance, a researcher needed to use the cancer registry to look at whether patients with a given cancer were subject to some factors in their environment—for example, whether they lived near electricity pylons or some hazardous waste plant—then they would need to seek consent from each patient. But what if many have died in the mean time or are untraceable because they have moved away or gone abroad? It becomes impossible to do the research. The National Information Governance Board was set up for this purpose, but it is no more. I know that the Government intend to try to help with this now. I know that as a first step the patient information leaflet produced by the UK Clinical Research Collaboration, explaining how data about them can be used, has gone out to GP practices in Scotland and soon will be sent out in England and the rest of the UK. That is an excellent start. The Clinical Practice Research Data Link has also been set up, but I wonder whether the Minister can say how far we have got with that? Will it achieve what is needed: the rapid access to data for researchers with the approval of patients? Meanwhile this amendment seeks to flush out the need to address this hurdle to some important research.

Amendment 41 brings up the important issue of funding for public health research. Here I speak as a former chairman of the Public Health Laboratory Service, the forerunner of the Health Protection Agency, which is also disappearing. I cannot speak too highly of the marvellous work it did and does in protecting the public’s health. It is a fantastic organisation. It works on outbreaks of food poisoning, epidemics of flu and immunisation programmes against a whole host of infections, to say nothing of its work in radiological protection and on all sorts of biohazards. The point is that this organisation is at the forefront of its field and is the envy of the world because it is able to do fantastic world-leading research. It is highly dependent on a continuing research effort to keep ahead of the infections and other hazards that are continually evolving. It is vital that it continues to have access to research grant funds, particularly external grant income from the whole range of potential funders to which it has access now, such as the Medical Research Council, the Wellcome Trust and so on. I hope the noble Earl will reassure us on this. His Written Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Willis, yesterday did not give any confidence that the Public Health Laboratory Service will be able to apply to external bodies for funding.

Then there are the directors of public health and their teams. They, too, should be enabled to conduct high-quality research. The amendment makes that clear. How will they receive the necessary support and encouragement when they transfer into the local authorities? It is not at all clear that local authorities are keyed into this, so some reassurance on this point would be helpful. Most of these amendments are probing—I think they all are—and seek simply to gain a greater understanding of the ways in which I hope the Government will support the research effort.

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, I shall speak in support of Amendments 40 and 42, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said, are very much appreciated and welcomed. They reflect the Government’s acceptance of the importance of research and making this an express duty on the Secretary of State.

Some years ago, Professor Sackett made the medical profession aware of the term “evidence-based medicine”. I should like to think that we have all adopted it in our clinical practices over the years. As a surgeon, I speak from a surgical perspective. In the 18th century John Hunter was approached by Edward Jenner with his dilemma about children in Gloucestershire who were being afflicted by cowpox. He wrote to John Hunter, saying, “I’m thinking about doing something about this and would like to cure the children in this area with a vaccination made from cowpox”. John Hunter replied, “Don’t think about it, do the experiment”. We in surgery consider Hunter the father of scientific surgery but our problem is that we are, perhaps, not quite as cerebral as our physician colleagues. All they have to do is learn the discipline, acquire the knowledge and prescribe the tablets. On the other hand, we not only have to learn but must then apply our knowledge in carrying out the operation. There are two skills that we must acquire. For us poor surgeons, it is often a long sentence—spent not only in a laboratory but in the theatre, putting into practice what we have learnt.

Earlier, a noble Lord—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Warner—used the term “from the bedside to the bench”, which is very important. The whole concept behind translational research has been to get our trainees and doctors away from idea that all they have to do is stay in the lab, beavering away. It is about the patient. One of the things that surgeons try to do is take a problem from the bedside into the lab, apply stringent tests to it and then bring it back in the form of treatment, which might be by medication or an operative technique.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Lord Ribeiro

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnberg]

In speaking to these amendments, I am conscious that we are hamstrung by the fact that we have an education and training regulation or Bill to follow. So there is much to come. However, education is so important and so much an integral part of every aspect of the NHS that we must have some recognition of that in this Bill. It is just not possible to imagine a health service run by an uneducated workforce. I am obviously in support of all these amendments, and I am delighted that the Government have got their own helpful amendment in there, but there is much that remains to be clarified. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I go over some of these just a little. I should state my own interests of having spent most of my working life deeply involved in undergraduate and postgraduate medical education.

It is vitally important for the Secretary of State to take on responsibility for education and training in the NHS. It is how that responsibility is fulfilled that I want to focus on, by examining where the potential risks lie in this Bill to the system that we currently have in place and, indeed, where we might take advantage of the Bill to look for improvements in the way that we operate now. I will concentrate on medical education as the system I know best.

At the moment, GPs and hospital specialists are trained using a range of curriculums designed and delivered by the medical royal colleges. The colleges assess the trainees and set their exams, and all of this has to be approved by the General Medical Council. The GMC is the competent body set up under EU law that has to ensure that the training programmes reach the minimum standards set by the EU. It has to be said that in the UK we are way above those minimum standards. All of that is relatively straight-forward. But most of the actual delivery of all this training has to take place locally, at GP practices and hospitals. It is here that we have to be very careful as the NHS moves into its new mode of working.

At this level, the royal colleges have oversight of training through their own regional adviser network, while the postgraduate deans and their teams make sure that the conditions for training are right and that the trainees go through the programmes supervised by local programme directors. They are available in every major discipline and speciality. So there is a complex network for direct oversight of postgraduate education which currently works reasonably well.

However, it is the deans who carry the heavy responsibility of the budget for salaries for all of the trainees. They pay their salaries and they can, theoretically, withdraw funding for trainees if trusts fail to provide the right conditions for training. So the postgraduate deans are absolutely critical and yet their role is threatened as the strategic health authorities which now employ them seem to be disappearing. The deans have enormous power, and budgetary responsibility, but where will they go, and who will appoint and employ them now? I believe that it makes a lot of sense to think about them being employed somehow by the proposed new Health Education England when that is set up, but meanwhile it will be critically important not to lose them. Uncertainty about their future is not a good recipe for them to function effectively. They need some certainty now.

Leaving the deans aside for the moment, it is clear that the current system is dependent on close-working collaboration between them and the royal colleges, the GMC and, at the local level, the consultants and GPs doing the training. All this is going on in an NHS busily providing services for patients at the same time. This is the second threat to education, because it is increasingly evident that the service pressures on consultants and GPs are limiting their capacity to provide the teaching. They are increasingly feeling that the time available to teach is being eroded as service pressures build up. This is not a new phenomenon, but one that is more obvious now. The fear is that this will get worse unless—this is the key—we place a duty on the commissioners of the service for them to fund the extra sessions that consultants need to teach their trainees. One alternative might be for the postgraduate deans to have a budget for these sessions, but I suspect that this would not meet with much favour. I personally am not moved by it. It is a responsibility that we have to place on the commissioners.

Finally, I want to mention the public health doctors and their training in the brave new world. They are in some disarray, as I understand it from the public health doctors themselves. The directors of public health are to be transferred to the employment of local authorities. That makes some sense, at least on the face of it. But there may well be difficulties. They may find that the local authority terms and conditions are significantly different from the NHS terms. That may affect recruitment and retention. I have a fear of a return to the days of the medical officer of health, who was in the local authority, rather a rather sad figure remote from the medical community at large. However, rather more important is the training and education of public health doctors. It is quite unclear where the local authorities sit in relation to meeting the needs of those trainees in what is a vital medical discipline. It may be that all of this has been thought through. If so, it would be helpful to hear about it. The public health community certainly needs to know.

Meanwhile, I think that a better solution all round would be for the public health doctors to be employed by Public Health England and for them to be seconded to the local authorities. That might be more satisfactory all round, and it would give some security to the education and training of this key professional group.

I have not spoken about nursing education, not because it is not important—it clearly is—but because we are coming to it later in the Bill, and at least some aspects of nurse training and education will come in later clauses. I am sure that we will return to that. For the moment, I want to support this group of amendments, including that of the Government. But it seems entirely possible, I fear, that there will be further amendments at a later stage to try to tease out some of the issues I have been discussing.

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Walton of Detchant and Lord Patel, for introducing this amendment. It highlights not only the importance of education and training in advance of the report that we will receive later in the autumn from the Future Forum group, but the fact that the Government have responded with an amendment of their own. That identifies the importance of bringing it on to the face of the Bill, so much so that it is right at the very beginning of Part 1. It is one of six duties that the Secretary of State now has to perform. That is very important.

It is quite understandable in a Chamber such as this one, full of doctors, that we tend to overemphasise the importance of medical education. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, rightly said, nursing will be discussed later. However, it is not just about nursing. My wife is a physiotherapist—there are physiotherapists, radiographers and other healthcare workers as well. That is why the Government’s amendment talks about education and training without qualifying exactly which areas we are discussing. It is important that we bear that in mind.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I think, referred earlier to the independent sector treatment centres and the lack of training in that area. I must declare an interest as a past president of the Royal College of Surgeons. I had countless negotiations with the Department of Health to put into place a requirement for independent sector treatment centres to be able to train. The big issue was that all the surgeons and the ISTCs were overseas doctors. No UK doctors were allowed to train. We asked for a way in which we could introduce NHS consultants into what was effectively spare elective capacity. I fundamentally believe that we must separate emergency and elective surgery to produce the best-quality care for patients.

As a consultant, I would regularly do an out-patients’ clinic at Basildon hospital on Mondays. If I was also on call, as I sometimes was, I could be told that there was a patient in the emergency department who needed urgent treatment. That would ruin my out-patients’ clinic because I would have to go to theatre and sort out that patient. Our last assessment showed that 64 per cent of the general surgeons in Great Britain and Ireland have a responsibility to be on call while they are doing elective work. If you have that degree of commitment to doing two things, you cannot provide the best possible care for your patients. If NHS consultants could structure their work so that it was possible to work in a centre which was perhaps in the hospital—there are a few hospitals, including one in Nottingham, with elective centres within the hospital—or perhaps outside, they would be able to take their registrar and SHO to the independent sector and they would be able learn how to carry out the surgery.