Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Baroness Cumberlege

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on the enormous amount of work that has clearly gone into this amendment and on the way that she introduced it, drawing on a lifetime’s experience in this field. My one reservation is about having to consider what the fundamental purpose of Health Education England is. As I see it, if HEE works well, then in future it will be the engine that delivers a better healthcare workforce in England, thereby improving the quality of care for patients. It is responsible for the education, training and personal development of all NHS staff and for recruiting, from our schools and into our universities, suitable people to carry on these tasks within the NHS. It is employer-led and it is there to provide the right workforce with the right skills and values, in the right place and at the right time, to better meet the needs and wants of patients.

The NHS has more than 300 different specific jobs and more than 1,000 employers nationwide, and the workforce needs to be educated and trained to exacting standards. Its task now is to prepare students for a very different NHS in the future: more care out of hospitals, more focus on long-term conditions, greater integration of health and social care, and new technology and techniques, all of which require planning and changes to curricula, as well as more of a focus on student choice towards NHS needs. It has an enormously difficult and comprehensive job to do. As I understand it, Health Education England accepts and supports the concept of mandatory training for healthcare assistants and the introduction of some sort of certification scheme that would allow HCAs to prove that they had attained the required levels of education and training.

It is a matter for Parliament to decide a view on regulation that goes beyond that recommended by the Government, but I do not believe that Health Education England would be an appropriate regulator. It is not created to have such a role, and that would not sit effectively with its core role of education and training. Therefore, although I very much understand the spirit of the noble Baroness’s amendment and appreciate the knowledge that she brings to the subject, I do not think that HEE is actually the tool to do this with.

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the principle behind the noble Baroness’s Amendment 16 but I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that Health Education England may not be the right place for this. At various times in our debates I have banged on about the regulation of healthcare assistants, because not only would it reassure employers and patients that standards were being met but being on a register gives individuals a degree of self-respect and sense of identity and it boosts their morale. In a way, it is a pity that we got rid of state enrolled nurses some time ago when we moved to university-educated nurses. In effect, that has been very successful and nurses have done very well—they do a marvellous job—but we have left a gap where the SENs were.

Amendment 23, which moves slightly along this same route, may be as far as we can go but, if we do have mandatory training, that will inevitably mean that someone has to produce a register of those who have received such training. This may not be quite the right place for it but we might get there by another route.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Turnberg and Baroness Cumberlege

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Turnberg]

My Lords, there is little doubt that one of the key elements in the delivery of a system of care which improves on what we have now—and we certainly need to improve the current position—is the need to integrate care between the NHS and social care. It is in that light that I have found the Nuffield Trust report, Towards Integrated Care in Trafford, which I am sure that many noble Lords have read, so helpful. A number of things of value come out of the report. First, it needs local buy-in, the involvement of clinicians, managers, patients, local authorities and the public. It also needs good data-sharing, good leadership and time. It does not happen overnight. It took them two years, despite having all the enthusiasm and conditions in the area, for it to get off the ground.

Of course, all that needs the will of those who are paying for the services—the commissioners—if they are to pay for integrated care across the divide, which has proved so difficult. All those local changes depend on funding. If we believe that improvements in this area are critical—and I am sure we do—surely it should find a stronger place in the Bill, in particular in the Secretary of State’s annual report. Amendment 244 states that we should insert the words,

“and its integrated working with adult social care services”,

in the report. That seems to me entirely appropriate and I hope that the noble Earl will consider that as a useful amendment to take forward.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I just ask the supporters of the two amendments a question—the noble Lord, Lord Warner, may be the appropriate one, having been a director of social services. The amendment talks about breaking down the barriers. We are all at one with that. I was very interested in what the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said about the Dilnot report; the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was a distinguished member of that committee, of course. Having listened to the amendment’s promoter, I thought it was very persuasive and one could see a real future there.

One of the blocks that has not been addressed in this debate is the difference in accountability in terms of the democratically elected councillors who are responsible for social care. I wonder whether the Lord, Lord Warner, had thought about ways to try to harness that to get that integration. To try to bring together two very different accountabilities is a real challenge.