Money Market Funds (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 25th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

The noble Baroness had made an important point. We surely have an interest in giving unilateral assurances on transfer of information, because we have such a big interest in the health of our own financial services industry. Anything which ensures that dodgy practice is exposed and information exchanged in respect of it is in our interests, even if—by a complete failure of our negotiating capacity, which unfortunately the Government are guilty of the whole time at the moment—we do not get any reciprocal rights in respect of these transfers of information. The noble Baroness’s question is very well made.

I have a question about the impact assessment. On page 17, it says that the familiarisation costs in respect of this instrument are estimated at £340 per firm and that the total cost is £7,200. Do I deduce from that that only 21 firms are affected, or is there an error and it should really read £7.2 million or something? That seems to be a point of some importance.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I feel the need, once again, to express my repeated objection to being here. We are here to discuss no-deal statutory instruments: I believe the Government are being irresponsible in not ruling out a no-deal outcome. A no-deal outcome would be serious in every area of life, particularly in its economic impact and in its security impact. I also believe that it is possible that we may fall into a no-deal scenario by what could be described as “by accident”. Accordingly, I will continue with my duty of scrutinising the SIs. The problem with this is that, when you come in on a Monday morning and people ask if you enjoyed the weather yesterday, you have to say: “What weather?” There was no weather for me; I was busy studying these five SIs. What made that even more irritating is that I failed to find any serious problems with them.

I have to admire the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for delving into the instruments themselves. I always find that pretty close to impossible, because of their habit of amending previous SIs that amend previous SIs that amend previous Acts. I will listen to the Minister’s answer with interest. I also join the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in her concern at the tone of the Explanatory Memorandum on the matter of information. I know that the Minister will say that it is just turning it from an obligation to an option. I am sure that is what the words say, but I hope that if we get into the extraordinarily unfortunate situation of leaving with no deal, the appropriate regulatory authorities in the United Kingdom go out of their way to co-operate with regulators in the European Union. These SIs—this one and quite a number of the others—touch on the core issues which caused the 2008-09 crisis, and overall the SIs we are looking at are sensible in making these markets safer.

Securitisation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 25th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will focus briefly on the second of the two statutory instruments. I need help from the Minister, because I am struggling to understand the consequences of this, and I am looking specifically at STS recognition. The Minister will understand that achieving classification as an STS is advantageous because it is very likely to lead to preferential capital treatment. That is very important to banking institutions, which obviously want to keep their capital requirements as low as possible. At the moment, to qualify for STS classification, all the parties to an STS securitisation have to be located within the EU. If I understand the change that flows from this statutory instrument, if we were to leave without a deal, the regime we would move into says that in the UK an STS can be recognised provided that just one of the relevant players is located in the EU—most likely the sponsor. I raise this issue because it sounds as though securitisations in the EU and in all third countries now become available for classification as an STS.

I raise that concern because we are all very aware that the United States has gone back to its old tricks in mortgage lending, and asset-backed paper, backed by US mortgages, is once more beginning to raise some fairly significant issues of concern. We have been protected from that to some degree by the STS regime, which requires that all relevant players are within the EU. If I understand this correctly, that protection is now removed, and since third countries can now get STS classification and therefore preferential capital treatment, we increase the risk or the attraction quite possibly—or rather, quite likely—to UK institutions to once again start playing in that environment of US mortgage-backed securities, where we already know there is incipient trouble; I hope it is genuinely incipient, but some people are using much stronger language than that. I would therefore like the Minister to explain that.

The other issue on which I had a question was under exposures to national promotional banks. At the moment, national promotional banks located in the EU, again, are eligible to be provided with preferential treatment. It would therefore encourage a financial institution to invest in those national promotional institutions because if it lends to them, it faces a lower capital requirement. What is the situation that will fall out of the picture, according to the Explanatory Memorandum? It seems to be KfW, which is the German state-owned development bank. A UK investor who is lending money to KfW would no longer get that preference as it calculated its required capital ratios.

To me, this is the equivalent of “have gun, shoot foot”. KfW is a major player in funding small businesses in the UK. It has sat alongside the European Investment Fund and the European Investment Bank in putting significant blocs of long-term patient capital into large-scale infrastructure in the UK. I know that we have the British Investment Bank, but it is minuscule compared to the EIB, the EIF and KfW, and nothing I have heard from government suggests a scale-up to anywhere like the same dimensions. Why, then, would we, in a situation like this, try to discourage KfW from looking at opportunities to put its money into projects in the UK, and especially into that much-needed arena of small business? I find it slightly perverse but that is one of the things that this SI apparently intends to achieve. As I said, I am very fond of the British Investment Bank but, boy, does it have a long way to go before it can possibly replace those other institutions. Surely we should be encouraging KFW—we cannot do anything about the EIF or the EIB because of European rules—to keep it as a player.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I studied these two SIs with great care and could not object to their general direction. I even managed to think of three penetrating questions, which the Minister unfortunately answered in his opening statement, so I shall not repeat them. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Deben, for their contribution. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, was concerned about the FCA costs. To some extent, that does not worry me nearly as much is whether there are competent resources. I worry whether there are enough people who want to work in a regulatory atmosphere who have enough competence to take this mess called falling out of the EU, fit it all altogether and discharge all their responsibilities. I can only just bring myself to ask this as a question, because I know that the Minister has a standard answer.

Building on the comments made earlier, the facts of life are that this is a dreadful deal. There is nothing wrong with the instrument, but if you are going to get into a dreadful situation, there are dreadful consequences. Although the Minister may say, as I am sure he will, that the issue of reciprocity is not nearly as bad as we all make out because the other side will want to do reciprocal deals, my experience of negotiation is that it is not that straightforward. They hold the cards, and if reciprocal agreements are made, good, but I fear that they will be somewhat one-sided.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and I shall try to deal with the issues that have been raised. A common theme is the issue of reciprocity, first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and my noble friend Lord Deben. As a matter of EU law, it is for the EU to decide who gets access to data held in the EU and we cannot in the SIs tell the EU what to do. However, we hope that it will take steps to protect financial stability—the consequences would be serious if it did not—and the Government are working to avoid a no-deal exit.

In the meantime, we are taking steps to minimise the disruption for the UK, and there have been some helpful indications on the issue of reciprocity. We welcome the announcements that the EU and some individual member states have made to date, which indicate that they would take steps to mitigate some of the risks. The Commission has taken a positive step in legislating to give the UK temporary equivalence for CCPs in a no-deal scenario, and the ESMA announced last week that all three UK CCPs will be recognised, mitigating a key no-deal risk to stability. Certain other member states, such as Germany and Sweden, have also announced various contingency measures. We stand ready to intensify our engagement, engage in bilateral discussion wherever possible and co-operate with EU institutions on preparedness for all scenarios, because it is in our mutual interest to lessen the risk of disruption to households and businesses in both the UK and the EU.

My noble friend Lord Deben asked a question which I think he has asked before about the resources of the FCA. Each time a Minister has said that these are very small incremental obligations, he has asked: what happens if you add them all up? It is a good question. Under the EU securitisation regulation which has applied from January this year, the PRA and the FCA already carry out most of the functions conferred on them by this SI. The main responsibilities transferring to the FCA relate to the authorisation and supervision of a small number of trade repositories and the publication of STS notifications on its website. We do not honestly think that this will create a significant burden for the FCA, which has specialist expertise in place and has made extensive preparations, including training supervisors, in anticipation of the implementation of the EU securitisation regulation and the onshoring of its requirements.

Uncertificated Securities (Amendment and EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 25th February 2019 Lords Chamber

I want to raise this issue with the Minister because if you talk to any regulator and ask where the next financial crash will occur, they will all tell you in a whisper, “Well, it could be in one of the CCPs”.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these two SIs. I particularly thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Kramer, for their contributions. They were off the point but, nevertheless, they hit an important issue. Legislation, particularly financial services regulation, is impossible to understand because of its constant revision and the failure to have a process for regular consolidation. There are two problems: the sheer understanding of it and, because of its complexity, one cannot see whether there are interrelationships between the various activities that are being regulated, such that you end up with a systemic catastrophe.

Before the financial crisis many people—I assume genuinely—believed from the way in which the markets were structured that they were robust. In practice, they turned out to be far from robust. I particularly note the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about CCPs—we debated them several months ago, which probably means about a year ago—and, once again, although they seem to be institutions to reduce risk, there is a worrying possibility that they may concentrate risk.

Turning to the statutory instruments, the first seems to tidy up regulations to be compatible with the introduction of the CSDR and the subsuming of the uncertificated securities regulations role. It does that in the same way as most of these SIs by a series of regulations which touch on referencing, transfer, transition and information. I have two small points on these regulations. I have to concede that I rarely get beyond the Explanatory Memorandum but I study that with some care. On Page 4, paragraph 7.4 has unnumbered bullet points; the fourth states:

“Creating transitional provisions, to ensure that operators of systems that were approved as operators under the USR prior to 30 March 2017 can continue to operate under the current version of the USR, pending their authorisation as a CSD under the CSDR regime”.


Why was 30 March 2017 chosen? Most of these transitional things are on exit day and I can see no logic in 30 March. How long does this transitional waiver last before they must receive authorisation as a CSD under the CSDR regime?

At the bottom of the page is the eighth unnumbered bullet point. I think the Minister touched on this point. In the middle it says:

“This is necessary in connection with the Bank of England’s role after exit under the SCDR regime, which will include recognising and supervising CSDs in third countries”.


I have some difficulty grasping what,

“recognising and supervising CSDs in third countries”,

means. Does this mean that this law is extraterritorial? I am not sure I have got the word right, but I am sure the Minister has a sense of what I am concerned about. Or does it simply relate to their rules in so far as how they operate in this country?

The second statutory instrument seems to be picking up the usual format of references, transfers, information and so on. I was looking for transition. Most of these SIs provide for passive transition—that is people, institutions and entities doing certain things after exit day carry on for a period to allow them to register and adjust—but, unusually, this one does not. As the noble Lord pointed out, to operate in the UK one has to become a recognised overseas investment exchange. The FCA document on that published on 14 September and updated on 30 January 2019 states:

“The Treasury is not planning to put in place a temporary recognition procedure for EEA market operators in the event the UK leaves the EU without a deal and without entering an implementation period”.


Why did the Treasury exceptionally make that decision with this SI? Clearly it is important. Later under “How to make an application” the document states: “Market operators should contact”—then there is an email address,

“as soon as possible to make us aware of their plans in relation to any arrangements they intend to maintain in the UK”.

There is a sense that the FCA is worried about whether it has enough time to sort these things out.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and, again, I notice that there is no fundamental objection to the purpose of the two SIs. I shall try to deal with the issues that were raised.

On equivalence, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked about the Bank of England’s powers to recognise CSDs from overseas countries and, particularly, whether the waivers were intended primarily for EEA CSDs. These waiver provisions are in fact an existing feature of the FSMA, so they are not introduced primarily to assist the EEA CSDs, although of course they will welcome having them at their disposal. The waivers are subject to statutory conditions and are published. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s point.

The noble Lord also raised a very good point about the distinction between engagement and consultation, expressing the hope that the results of engagement might be made public in the same way that the results of consultation are. As he recognised, we are reaching the end of the road on Treasury SIs, but it is a valid point that we could take on board if in future we decided not to go down the statutory consultation road but instead to go down the engagement road. It would be useful to bear in mind that we could do a little more to explain in what respect the engagement resulted in changes to the draft SI.

The noble Lord also asked whether we could clarify the nature of the consultation on the USRs. In December 2015, the Treasury published the consultation on implementing the EU CSDR. It closed in 2016 and it was then decided to implement it in stages: first, the Central Securities Depositories Regulations 2014; and, secondly, the Central Securities Depositories Regulations 2017. This is the third SI. We engaged with industry by sharing a draft of it on 24 October 2018 and we published a draft on 17 January this year.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised a valid point about information sharing. Simply removing the legal obligation to share information does not necessarily mean that there will be any change in the quantity or quality of information that is subsequently shared. It would not be appropriate for the FCA to be obliged to follow the existing information-sharing arrangements with the EU authorities where there is no guarantee of reciprocity, or to be obliged to match suspensions—another feature that I mentioned. However, it will be able to co-operate with relevant EU authorities on a discretionary basis to share information, as it currently does with non-EEA countries. Therefore, the FCA will still be required to publish decisions—for example, when it suspends or removes a financial instrument from trading at a venue that falls under its jurisdiction—in a manner that it considers appropriate, and that information will then be available to the ESMA.

The noble Baroness also asked about requirements for the Bank of England to co-operate with other authorities when it does not have to do so now. The Bank of England will have a general duty, rather than a specific obligation, to co-operate with other authorities. That is introduced so that the Bank of England is subject to a duty under the FSMA to co-operate with other bodies that undertake similar functions in connection with the Bank’s functions.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asked whether the USR drafting had changed and whether the first draft was gold-plated. The Treasury has sought to take a proportionate approach to ensuring that issuers can exercise their rights under Article 49 of the CSDR. It was considered appropriate, first, to remove any provisions that were subject to both the USR and the CSDR, and, secondly, to remove those provisions in the USR that were incompatible with the Article 49 right. The current version is less extensive than the one published in 2015, while achieving those aims.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, also asked about the accessibility of FSMA amendments. I know that this is a subject that she has raised before. If one looks at Schedule 5 to the EU withdrawal Act, it sets out that the Queen’s printer—as part of the National Archives—must make arrangements for the publication of “relevant instruments”, including regulations, decisions and tertiary legislation. These instruments will form the retained EU law from exit day and the National Archives is working to ensure that they are visible and accessible to ensure legal certainty and clarity post exit.

All pieces of EU legislation, as well as treaties, international agreements and case law, are currently being archived and will be made available to the public at the appropriate time. The noble Baroness may remember that on 19 April last year, during the passage of the EUWA, my noble friend Lady Goldie wrote to her setting out more detail about how the public would be able to access this EU law and the features that would be in place to ensure legal certainty and clarity post exit; a copy was deposited in the Libraries.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about CSDs. I think it means CSDs from, rather than in, third countries, but I will write to him to confirm that. He asked also why there is no transitional passporting regime—such as the TPR that we have introduced in other parts of the post-Brexit scenario—for EEA market operators. The reason there is no temporary recognition for EEA market operators is that we have an already long-established and well-understood domestic regime for overseas exchanges. EEA market operators which currently make use of passport rights may wish to apply under this regime to become a recognised overseas investment exchange—ROIE. The FCA published a direction on 14 September clarifying how an EEA market operator can make an application to become an ROIE.

The noble Lord also asked about supervising third-country CSDs. Recognition is the process by which the Bank of England allows third-country CSDs to offer CSD services to the UK; supervising third-country CSDs refers to the Bank of England’s ongoing regulatory supervision to make sure the CSD continues to comply with its obligations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised a point about CCPs—an important point, which she has raised in earlier discussions. She is worried about the stability of CCPs and their possible vulnerability to total collapse. She will know that the current structure was put in place post the 2008 crash precisely to protect against the scenario that she outlined. CCPs are financial market infrastructures that take on counterparty credit risk between parties to a transaction. They do this by sitting between trades, as a seller to every buyer and a buyer to every seller. If the noble Baroness agrees, perhaps I could write to her in slightly more detail, setting out why we feel that the present position is robust and why we believe that the scenario she referred to may be unlikely to come about.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the transition provision for operators in uncertificated securities. Part of the SI is backward-looking to what has already happened and part is forward-looking. The 2017 reference is to operators approved under the USR 2001 prior to 30 March 2015, which will benefit from a transitional provision under this SI. These operators will retain such approval until they become recognised as a CSD for CSDR and FSMA purposes. I apologise for the acronyms; perhaps I could write to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, explaining all this without using them.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

That would be good. Perhaps the Minister could copy the letter to everybody who has taken part in the debate.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Yes, I generously accept the suggestion made by the noble Lord, and I beg to move.

Money Laundering and Transfer of Funds (Information) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Thursday 7th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 29 November, 6 December and 13 December 2018 be approved.

Relevant document: 11th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee A). Considered in Grand Committee on 23 January

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

May I just refer back to our previous exchange on this matter? When we last discussed credit rating agencies, I asked what would happen if there was a deal and I got a somewhat amorphous answer. Can the Minister be clearer than he was in his original answer on this point? I have asked this question in every SI debate that I have attended and I have received a slightly different answer from each Minister concerned, so it would be good to know whether the Government have a unified position on this.

Looking at the Explanatory Memorandum, which was discussed in Grand Committee, there is the registration process and the three bullet points. The first two points were that there would be a conversion regime with automatic registration, and that the registration regime would be available to new legal entities. The third, however, which nobody seemed able to understand, was that the automatic certification process would enable certified CRAs established outside the EU to notify the FCA of their intention to extend the certifications to the UK. Like the conversion regime, these notifications must be made before exit day. The Minister’s answer, which I checked in Hansard, was again a little woolly.

Finally, there is the whole issue of how the law relates to the staff of credit rating agencies. We have improved the control of financial services and banks by having a senior management regime. I understand that that regime does not extend to credit rating agencies. The Minister went on to say that other regulations do, but I believe that those other regulations have the same sort of weak reservations that were there in 2008 and allowed the shambles in the money market. It seems somewhat deficient, because what happened in that period, as we know, and the reason nobody was prosecuted, is that everyone said, “It’s not me, guv”. There was not a clear single point of responsibility for the various exceptions to be made.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, who has maintained his reputation for holding the Government to account on statutory instruments. I understand exactly why he sought to raise these issues. He referred to my comment that we would “switch off” the SIs in the event of a deal. It is a phrase that appears in some of the briefing for Ministers, so I hope it was not the wrong thing to say. To help the noble Lord, I will set out in more detail the process of switching off.

As we set out in the White Paper on the EU withdrawal agreement Bill, that Bill will amend the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 so that the conversion of EU law into retained EU law takes place at the end of the implementation period instead of on exit day. While the UK remains subject to EU law, and before the conversion of EU law into UK retained law, there is no requirement for most instruments relating to our exit from the EU to be enforced. I come to the question the noble Lord asked: the intention, therefore, is that the EU withdrawal agreement Bill will contain provision to delay all relevant SIs—including these—that enter into force on exit day until the end of the implementation period. The Bill will also ensure that Ministers can revoke or amend the SIs as appropriate so that they deal effectively with any deficiencies arising from the end of the implementation period. Some provisions may remain in effect, such as powers that allow us to prepare for the end of the implementation period.

The noble Lord raised two other issues in the Moses Room on 23 January. One question was on the process of CRAs registering before exit day. The CRA SI includes an automatic conversion regime for UK-based CRAs with an existing ESMA registration, and a temporary registration regime, or TRR, for CRAs establishing a new legal entity in the UK. To enter the conversion regime, a CRA will simply need to notify the FCA 20 days prior to exit day. A CRA that meets the criteria will enter the TRR if it has submitted an advanced application that has not yet been determined to the FCA prior to exit day. Basically, these regimes will help to ensure there are no gaps between the UK leaving the EU and UK-based CRAs not being registered with the FCA. The FCA will be provided with powers to start the preparatory work for registering UK CRAs prior to exit day.

The third issue the noble Lord raised is another that he touched on in his intervention in the Moses Room. He asked about the senior management structure of credit rating agencies and whether individuals could be held responsible. As I said then, it is a good question. The senior managers and certification regime does not currently apply to credit rating agencies. One of the reasons is that they do not actually handle customers’ money, which banks and other agencies do. Regulation 22 of the SI applies Section 400 of the FSMA, which provides that if an offence committed was,

“with the consent or connivance of an officer”,

of the body corporate, or due to neglect on its part, the individual as well as the corporate is guilty of an offence.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

Part of that answer jarred a little with me then and jars now on repetition—the part that says it is because they do not handle customers’ money. Looking back at the disaster of 2008, one has to recognise that the credit rating agencies were a substantial part of that disaster. The fact they were giving very high ratings to essentially junk stock was one of the issues that compounded the crisis. As a minimum, I would be grateful if the Minister would take this issue back to the Treasury and recognise that it might be an unfortunate hole in the legislation.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I understand why the noble Lord is pressing me on this. As I said, the senior managers and certification regime does not currently apply to credit rating agencies. The noble Lord makes a good point; I hope he is now satisfied with some of the answers I have given. In answer to his last intervention, although the regime does not currently apply to CRAs, we will of course take his suggestion on board and see whether in future that might be amended. I beg to move.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I thank the noble Lord for his courteous replies and his help.

Motions agreed.

Over the Counter Derivatives, Central Counterparties and Trade Repositories (Amendment, etc., and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister noted, the first SI—dealing with OTC derivatives, CCPs and trade repositories—was published in draft on 22 October last year. The second, dealing with financial markets and insolvency, was published in draft on 31 October last year. The impact assessments for these SIs are contained in a consolidated batch of nine HMT impact assessments, which themselves rely occasionally on references to IAs for other SIs. That batch was published on 29 January, three months after the publication of the drafts and two working days before we were scheduled to debate them. Even one working day beforehand, last Friday morning, the IAs were not available in the Printed Paper Office. Can the Minister explain the very late appearance of the SIs and why the PPO did not have copies by Friday? Can he reconcile this late publication of IAs with giving Parliament proper time for scrutiny? Can he assure the Committee that future Treasury IAs will be published in good time and lodged with the PPO?

The consolidated IAs contain a headline assessment of cost and benefits. As to costs, there are three headings: “Total Transition”, “Average Annual” and “Total Cost”. In each case, the IA estimates the costs as “Unknown: likely significant”. This is unsatisfactory and raises the question of whether HMT understands the role that IAs play in parliamentary scrutiny. It is of no help that the consolidated IA reckons the benefits to be “significant” but declines to attempt to quantify them. In the remaining 52 pages of the impact assessment there is no real detailed examination or quantification of likely costs and benefits, apart from a reading time-based estimate and a passing reference to the trade repositories SI where costs are estimated, apparently, at £500,000 per TR. I say “apparently” because there is a typo in the cost reference for these TRs, so it is not clear whether the figure is meant to be £50,000 or £500,000. Perhaps the Minister can clear that up. I think that it would help the Committee in its scrutiny of future Treasury SIs if consolidation was avoided and we returned to individual impact assessments in proper form for each SI.

Turning to each SI, I found it quite hard in parts to follow the EM for the OTC derivatives, CCPs and TRs SI. I would be grateful for some clarification from the Minister. In paragraph 6.1, the EM notes that the SI revokes two pieces of delegated legislation. Will the Minister expand on what these are and why they are being revoked? The EM does not say why—or if it does, I could not find it. In paragraph 7.7, the EM explains that:

“As a general principle, the UK would need to default to treating EU Member States largely as it does other third countries, although there are cases where a different approach would be needed including to provide for a smooth transition to the new circumstances”.


The EM does not explain what these cases may be or what the different approach might be. Will the Minister tell the Committee what these cases are, or may be, and what different approaches will be needed, and why?

Paragraph 7.12 of the EM states:

“Where the Commission has taken equivalence decisions for third countries before exit day, these will be incorporated into UK law and will continue to apply to the UK’s regulatory and supervisory relationship with those third countries—with the exception of those taken under Article 25 EMIR as set out in the CCP Regulations”.


Will the Minister explain what these exceptions are and why they exist?

In paragraph 7.16, the EM notes that the SI introduces a power that allows the FCA to suspend the reporting obligation for up to one year, with the agreement of HM Treasury, where there is no registered UK TR available. Surely the Treasury must know how likely this is and who it will affect. Again, the EM and the impact assessment do not help—or at least did not help me. Will the Minister say how likely this suspension is, who it will affect and what its consequences and impact might be?

I turn briefly to the second instrument, the financial markets and insolvency regulations, which is, by comparison, a model of clarity and straightforwardness. My only question relates to paragraph 1.76 of the impact assessment, which explains that the relevant EEA systems will be required to notify the Bank of England, before exit day, to enter the regime. What happens if they do not? What risks does this generate, and what procedures are in place to mitigate them?

I realise that I have asked quite a few quite detailed questions, and if the Minister prefers to respond in writing I would be happy, as long as we have the answers before the SIs reach the Chamber. I emphasise that I feel strongly that the consolidation of IAs makes proper parliamentary scrutiny significantly more difficult, and the very late production of IAs, as in this case, really does not help.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, there is much that I would support in the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. I particularly like the way he sneaked in the fact that he got to page 41 of the IA.

The first instrument is on an area that I knew little about before I read it. With that limitation, it seems generally to make sense. It is clear about the transfer of functions, who will be responsible for equivalence decisions and information exchange—data comes over with a discretionary relationship. It is clear that the object of the exercise—at least this is how I read the Explanatory Memorandum—is to retain the discipline of EMIR. In view of its importance, I was surprised that a UK name for EMIR was not created, as was done in a previous SI, so that we would all know what we were talking about, given that the E in EMIR stands for European.

Going a little way into the detail, as the noble Lord pointed out, paragraph 7.16 allows a reporting obligation to be suspended for one year. From what I understand of the overall regime that this is part of, its very essence is open reporting of transactions. That is what the G20 came up with to create this regime. Will the Minister give us some feel for what risks are being taken by Part 2 of the instrument, which creates an opportunity for reporting to be suspended for up to one year? It also has what seems a fairly reasonable exemption for intragroup activity. It is a classic three years, plus however often the Treasury wants to extend it. It also has an exemption for energy derivative contracts up to 3 January 2021, but I could not see where that date came from; perhaps it is something to do with an international agreement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

This is quite an important question. At the moment, LCH is the dominant clearing house globally and it is certainly the dominant player for any euro-denominated transactions. There is a shift under way to take some of this activity to Paris. The real question for a lot of the UK players is whether they have to relocate part of their operation to Paris to be able to play in both parts of what will become a much more fragmented European clearing system. That matters a lot for terms of compression and deciding what levels of margin companies have to keep. The reciprocal play matters. Today, the Bank of England and ESMA signed an MoU on how they will regulate these central counterparties. I do not know whether, or to what extent, that is the context. Am I being clear? No, I am being confusing.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

No, that is very good. It might turn my casual question into quite a substantial one.

I notice that all the Treasury SIs that the Committee has discussed say that there will be no consolidation and no guidance. I do not know how we can carry on like this. I have found it absolutely impossible to understand the overall scene that these SIs relate to. The scrutiny that one is able to give is therefore entirely dependent on the Explanatory Memorandums. As a generality, these assume quite significant previous knowledge and it is an uphill battle to get a feel for these SIs and to give them the appropriate scrutiny.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. I detected no objection to the basic premises on which these SIs are based. I will sweep up some of the points raised in earlier debates that are also relevant to this one.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the FCA’s resources to cope with the new responsibilities being imposed on it. We are confident that the FCA is making adequate preparation and is effectively resourced ahead of March this year. In its 2018-19 business plan, a significant proportion of its resources are already focused on the forthcoming exit, including arrangements to implement any necessary changes. It has increased its staff numbers in response to increases in the scope of its regulatory activity, including EU withdrawal. It will publish its 2019-20 plan this spring, setting out its planned work for the coming year. As I said in response to an earlier SI, the chief executive of the FCA, Andrew Bailey, has said he expects to hold FCA fees steady for a year or two, assuming there is an implementation period. If there is not, it can increase its fees should it need to do so in the event of no deal.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked about the impact assessment being published late. This issue was raised in another place and was dealt with by my ministerial colleague John Glen. We do recognise the importance of making impact assessments available for parliamentary scrutiny. We find ourselves in a unique situation. While we have tried to ensure that these impact assessments are published before debates, this has not always been possible. We acknowledge that some firms will incur costs as a result of these SIs but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said in an earlier debate, the situation for these businesses would be much worse in the absence of this legislation. As a whole, these SIs will reduce costs to business in a no-deal scenario as without them the legislation would be defective. In response to the points raised by both noble Lords and the noble Baroness, we have agreed to undertake further analysis of these SIs in the event that we leave the EU without a deal and they come into effect.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked whether we could have independent assessments for SIs. I understand that, but there are some complex interdependencies between some of the SIs. Also, the work that the regulators are undertaking cannot always be neatly pigeonholed between the SIs. Given that, it has not been possible to fully quantify the impact of the individual SIs at this stage. However, this is something that Miles Celic, the chief executive of TheCityUK, noted in a letter to the RPC in November. As I said a moment ago, we are committed to undertaking further analysis of the impact of these instruments at an appropriate point, should they come into effect, either in the event of leaving without a deal—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

We hear that explanation and I have great sympathy for the civil servants involved with this task. However, will the Minister at least have the grace to admit that it was entirely in the Government’s hands to decide when to start this process? If they had started it earlier we would not be in this mess now. We have had impact assessment after impact assessment delivered after we have approved the instrument. That is not satisfactory and I doubt whether the Treasury will be able to catch up.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I plead guilty as charged. As I said a moment ago, we recognise the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. We will try to do better and make sure that the relevant impact assessments are available in time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

We need a post-mortem on this, which I will authorise.

In response to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, regarding the numbers on the impact assessment, and how they relate to trade repositories, I say that there are eight trade repositories operating in the EEA that are in scope of familiarisation costs. The impact assessment confirmed that we anticipate that the IT costs for those TRs will be approximately £10,000 to £15,000 per TR—although this cost is also dependent on the size of the TR—and, for firms that will need to update their systems, £5,000 per firm. Costs to the FCA associated with supervising the trade repositories, as well as new IT systems to connect to trade repositories, would be approximately £500,000 per trade repository, although this cost is also dependent on their size. The impact assessment also acknowledged that there may be other costs associated with trade repositories connecting to the Bank of England.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and it may have also been the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, who asked about the FCA’s power to suspend the need to report if there were no trade repositories. That is most unlikely. There are a number of trade repositories in the UK and there are arrangements in the legislation to passport them so they carry on. There are also arrangements for relatively speedily authorising any new TRs. It was slightly odd that a city such as the City of London did not have any TRs, so we think it most unlikely that the FCA will utilise its power to suspend reporting obligations against that background.

In the earlier debate, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked me whether the EU was considering reciprocity to UK funds in a no-deal scenario. The EU has not done the same for UK funds passporting into the EU, but many UK asset management firms operate EU fund ranges, and they have welcomed the creation of the temporary marketing permission regime, which enables them to market them into the UK.

I was asked what happens to an EEA system that does not notify the Bank of England of entering the TDR. Such a system will not enter the temporary designation regime and it will therefore not have recognition for UK insolvency law purposes. A notification is not an onerous requirement; the Bank of England provided details of this last autumn. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, pointed out that under Section 8 we cannot create any new criminal offences, or, I think, create new taxes or new public authorities, and I am confident that nothing in the SIs goes against that restraint.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

The appropriate paragraph does say that you are substituting one set of criminal offences with another. I can find it and read it if you like; it is a real question. I think the answer is in the word “relevant”.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord asked a good question: is the creation of a criminal offence consistent with the withdrawal Act? Section 8 outlaws the creation of a relevant criminal offence. This is defined in Section 20 of the Act as an offence with a possible prison term of more than two years. The criminal offence in this SI is not caught by that definition, so it is permitted.

Following an intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I was asked about unilaterally recognising EEA systems as central banks with no EU-wide reciprocal action. Extending settlement finality protections unilaterally reduces the risk that UK firms will be refused access to EEA financial market infrastructures, known as systems, and central banks once the UK leaves the EU. It also reduces the legal uncertainty and settlement risk these systems and central banks would face regarding UK law without such protections, so it ensures that the UK remains an attractive place to do business in a global context and supports broader financial stability.

I am conscious that I might not have answered all the penetrating questions from the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, or some others that have been raised. If I have not, I will write to noble Lords, I hope with an authoritative reply.

Collective Investment Schemes (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Kramer]

I find that very helpful and I thank the Minister for saying that.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument but I repeat my concern that we are considering such instruments at all. I and my party feel that the Government should have given a commitment that we would not have a no-deal exit; day by day, there is growing evidence that such an exit will be disastrous for our country. I will say no more on that but try to process these SIs on their merits against—how shall I put it?—the strict limitation that we are assuming a no-deal situation and recognising that things have to be done to achieve that.

The Treasury, I assume to be consistent, has reproduced the same eight paragraphs in all the Explanatory Memorandums. Paragraph 7.4, which I will repeat, says:

“These SIs are not intended to make policy changes, other than to reflect the UK’s new position outside the EU, and to smooth the transition to this situation”.


It is against that test that I spent my time studying the Explanatory Memorandum. It seems to do all the right things: it creates a new name; it says that passporting dies; and it goes on to offer a temporary permission regime. This regime may last for up to three years, or three years and 12 months, or three years and 24 months, or perhaps for ever. One has to view the SI in the light of that regime.

Market Abuse (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I want to make a couple of fundamental points. First, my noble friend uses the word “equivalent”, but of course this is not equivalent. It is equivalent only in the sense that it applies to Britain; therefore, immediately, it is not the same thing. He may say that this is chopping logic, but I think that it is important for us to underline that when you take into British law what has been up to now European law, you assert your control over what happens here but you deny the fact that you had some control over what happens over the whole area. That, therefore, is not equivalent. It may be what people want, but I doubt that people who voted to leave understood the details. Indeed, none of us did until we started to go through it—what I say is not in any way insulting to either side. The fact is that this is much more complex than we thought.

The effect, which I think is important, is that we say of many of the things that we are talking about, “These institutions are international. We are still part of Europe, in the sense that we are working in this space. Therefore, we are going to try, even if we leave the European Union and even if we do so without a deal, to have arrangements that will overcome these problems”. Then my noble friend says, “We will do these things on a discretionary basis”. The problem with a discretionary basis is that it is exactly that. There will be occasions when the British Government—or the FCA—do some of these things and occasions when they do not. My concern is that, by translating where we are now into a national position and not an international position, as far as the financial services industry is concerned—I have declared my interest—we introduce a degree of randomness that we do not have at the moment. At the moment, we know when these things happen. Under the regulations, we will not know, because it will be at the discretion of the British Government to decide what things they will do in common and what things they will not.

The second thing to say is that this is entirely one-sided. We are saying that we will take these powers over the things that we have control of, but we have no deal under which we can get the information and no deal on things over which we have partial control. The noble Baroness who just spoke is absolutely right. There is a real issue about information. How will we know some of these things? If we leave the European Union and do not have information in common, there will be things that affect us which we will not know unless we have a deal which allows—and not only allows but makes—the European authorities to be in a position to tell the Government or the FCA the information that they have.

The third important thing is the whole question of who pays the bill. I am very much relieved by the Minister’s assertion that, for example, credit agencies will pay a fee, as they do at the moment, and that that fee will come to the FCA rather than to the European authorities. But it is important for him to recognise that there is already considerable unhappiness about the unaccountability of the FCA for the charges that it makes. There is no way of monitoring the charges which the FCA makes—no superior court to go to. There is a constant problem with the FCA because many of its charges seem, to those of us who represent people who have to pay them, to be unconnected either with the rise in the cost of living or indeed with the services that are provided. The difficulty with bringing everything back into this country is that there is nowhere to appeal to. The FCA is entirely under its own decision-making process, and says, “We have got enough money, but if we don’t have enough money, we’ll just raise the tariff”. I want to know from the Minister when we will have a situation in which even a group of people with whom I have no very close relationship—namely, the credit rating agencies; indeed, I have some pretty serious complaints about them—ought to have some opportunity to complain about the price that they are charged. I do not see any reference to that, nor indeed has the Minister mentioned it altogether.

My last point is, simply, that of course everything therefore comes into the hands of the Treasury. That is what happens when you nationalise what was and should be an international effort. Everything is decided by the Treasury. When people talked about “taking back control”, what that actually means here is that the Treasury takes back control. I see no opportunity for anybody outside the Treasury to be able to oversee the decisions that are made here. I say to the Minister that I am not at all sure that that is a very cheerful future. It seems that there was a great deal to be said for the much more open way in which the European Union deals with these matters. It is a much more transparent system than the system that we have in this country. One of the pieces of truth which I am afraid has been lost in the debates about Brexit is that in many areas, the European Union has been much more willing to discuss, much more open and much more transparent. We are going to lose all that, and I do not see anything in the Minister’s speech—admirable though it was—that indicates that the Treasury will open itself up to a more transparent system and provide opportunities for people to complain, argue and to know what the details are, and I see no sign that the same will happen with the FCA. This is therefore a further closure of the mechanisms of the financial world, and less transparency and openness. I am sorry that the Government have not taken this opportunity to say, “When the time comes, if we leave the European Union, we will start on a process of opening these things up”. I realise it cannot be part of this SI because it would change the nature of the legislation but I would like to hear something of the willingness of the Treasury to mimic, to some extent, the openness of the European Union, which we are now going to lose.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I can start by posing the same question on these two SIs as I did before. Are they no-deal only SIs or ones that will be switched off? I am entirely happy for the Minister to reference his previous reply, if that is, in fact, the reply he will give. I have tested these SIs as best I can on the basis of paragraphs 7.1 to 7.9 of the Explanatory Memorandum. Noble Lords will have read these points before as they are the same in every Explanatory Memorandum. They basically say that new policy will not be introduced except where necessary.

Largely speaking, I have found nothing to complain about. However, there were one or two areas I did not understand. I start with the Explanatory Memorandum on the first SI, on market abuse. In paragraphs 2.7 and 2.8 once again I think the problem is that the author knew what they were talking about and I do not. The first sentence of paragraph 2.8 says:

“The decision to keep instruments admitted to trading or traded on EU venues, rather than amending to a UK only scope, was taken because of the close relationship between UK and EU markets”.


I hope that the Minister might expand on that because I find the language of that paragraph, in particular, extraordinarily difficult to understand.

On international co-operation, we have had one reply. I want to press the noble Lord further. We hope that the outcome of this—no matter how badly we do it—is that we are still in this international market and therefore working together not just with the EU but with the rest of the world. As I understand it at the moment, we effectively work with the rest of the world keeping abuse regulations, in particular, up to date through the channels of the EU. How will that be replaced? The abuse regulations, in particular, clearly have to be kept up to date.

The remaining thing to say about the first SI is that it should not be in front of us because of the absurd paragraph 12.5 in the Explanatory Memorandum that says we are going to have an impact assessment but not until we have agreed the instrument. As we know, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, took some stick on that—I think that would be the right term—and your Lordships might moderate that stick by some useful comments. I do not know.

Moving on to credit rating agencies, I have a couple of questions. One is, once again, due to my failure to understand. I did get O-level English—I am not that bad, I hope. My understanding of the three bullet points in paragraph 7.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum diminished as I read through them. In particular, I have no idea what this means:

“The Automatic Certification Process will enable Certified CRAs established outside the EU to notify the FCA of their intention to extend certification to the UK. Like the Conversion Regime, these notifications must be made before exit day”.


I do not know what a “Certified CRA” is.

Finally, paragraph 7.15 covers enforcement and makes reference to criminal actions. It also makes reference to sections in FSMA, which would be a joy if I had an up-to-date copy to check them against. What I would like to be reassured about—or not if it is not true—is whether credit rating agencies are subject to the requirement to have a senior management regime where the clarity of roles is such that if a criminal prosecution was to take place, as referred to in this paragraph, that prosecution could be directed at an individual.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and I notice that neither the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, nor the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, have any fundamental objections to the detail of the SIs before us. I shall try to deal with the points they have made, along with those made by my noble friend. I was asked why the European Communities Act is mentioned. The answer is that the ECA powers are used to make consequential amendments to the Criminal Justice Act 1993 and the UK Market Abuse Regulation 2016. The European Communities Act is mentioned because it is the parent rather than the withdrawal Act.

My noble friend raised a number of points that go slightly wider of the mark. I would just say to him that it is a consequence of leaving the EU—like him, I campaigned to remain—that we can no longer influence what he described as “over there”. I used the word “equivalence” because what we are trying to do is make sure that if and when we do leave, the regime in this country is as equivalent as it can be to the regime when we were in the EU. Likewise, he talked about discretion. Indeed, we will not have the discretion that we have at the moment to influence what happens in the EU as a direct consequence of us having left.

Both my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, raised the question of how we get information from the EU. In terms of ESMA and EU regulators co-operating and sharing information with the FCA, it will look to make use of the existing arrangements in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 to co-operate and share information which should be in the interests of both parties. We hope that that will continue. I was asked why we have bothered to keep paragraph 5 in the MAR SI, which is the list of EU institutions. We have omitted these exemptions from the UK MAR to achieve symmetry with the EU, but we recognise that after exit we may achieve or negotiate closer links, in which case it would be desirable to reinstate the current position if it was reciprocated or desired. I was also asked why we have exempted EU bodies under MAR. The UK and the EU markets are highly integrated, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the relationship between them means that the exemptions may also be necessary for EU institutions interacting in the UK market.

My noble friend raised the issue of FCA fees. He will understand that those are not within the scope of the EU withdrawal Act powers or indeed within this statutory instrument. However, I hope that he was reassured by what I quoted from the chief executive, Andrew Bailey. He expects FCA fees to remain steady for a year or two, assuming that there is an implementation period.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked why the scope of this SI covers financial instruments in both UK and EU trading venues. I think the answer is that there is a very close relationship between the UK and EU markets and the scope provided by this SI ensures that the FCA will continue to have the ability to investigate and pursue cases of market abuse related to financial instruments which affect UK markets. UK companies may have instruments that are quoted not in London, but in Europe. If there were abuse there, it could affect the integrity of the UK market. This means that the FCA could take action where activity in a financial instrument, which was traded on an EU venue, impacted on UK markets. We want to maintain the current levels of integrity and confidence that UK markets currently hold. The impact assessment—

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

There seems to be an extraterritorial competence here, which is pretty unusual in English law.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

We would expect the EU regulators to intervene and investigate market abuse in an EU trading venue of a UK-related instrument. We would expect it to take the lead. The provision in the SI is for what I hope is the unlikely event that they decide for whatever reason not to intervene, but that we feel there is a need to investigate market abuse because it is having an impact on UK markets. That is why that particular power is as I have said.

To return to the lack of an impact assessment, we did ship a bit of water yesterday. We recognise the importance of having impact assessments available to inform these debates. Treasury Ministers are doing everything they can to make these available as soon as possible. They are in discussions with the Regulatory Policy Committee to improve the impact assessments and enable them to complete their review of them. We hope to publish the relevant impact assessment next week.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I omitted to congratulate the noble Lord on getting out an impact assessment on the final SI—the credit rating business. Because it came out, I was foolish enough to read it; it is interesting that the numbers showed a cost to the industry of £11.4 million. I did not really understand what that meant—whether the figure was big or little. It is obviously £11.4 million, but do these people make hundreds and thousands of millions of pounds such that it is nothing or will it be a significant cost to them?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is a very good question, and the answer is that we do not have the exact information as to the exact turnover or number of people employed in the CRAs. I will make further inquiries and see if I can shed some light on that. I might get some in-flight refuelling.

Money Laundering and Transfer of Funds (Information) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, I have a lot of common thought with the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, has raised, so I do not need to go into detail. I have no problem with, if you like, the way the handle has been turned on the routine adaptation but, again, the question comes of whether it was right to follow the symmetrical approach, so that immediately the EEA is in the third-country pot, or whether there could perhaps have been a transition that made it a little easier. This is not to say that in the longer term that is not the right destination, but I am not sure about a “big-bang” switchover. I, too, wonder what will happen under the Part 3 heading, “Customer Due Diligence”. Will this be another excuse for banks to extract life histories from an awful lot of people, quite a few of whom reside in this House?

Those of us who are former Members of the European Parliament ought, I suppose, to declare an interest; we tend still to have residual bank accounts and such things there. I should talk about this because the same rules apply to those bank accounts as apply to UK bank accounts. Whereas from the UK banks I get 20 pages to fill in, including, as I said, a life history and everything since the year dot, I seem to get one page from a bank in Belgium, which is under the same ruling. I would quite like to know how many of these rules are consequences of the legislation and how many are consequences of gold-plating or uncertainty among our banks. It is, in a sense, an identity thief’s charter when you have to fill in all this information, along with copies of your passport and everything else, and upload it while unsure of where it is going; or you can take it into your branch. Anything that helps with regard to that would be useful to know.

In this case, there would have been an argument for being asymmetrical for at least a little while. I regret that that opportunity was not taken, but I do not believe anything has been done that offends, as such, against what one is supposed to do under the EU withdrawal Act.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I should say a couple of words about where we find ourselves with these SIs. As Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition, I do not want our participation in this process to be misinterpreted in any way as an endorsement of a no-deal exit from the EU; I cannot think of a worse outcome than no deal to the chaos that we find ourselves in. However, we have to accept that, given this chaos, which has to be laid at the Government’s door, there is a real possibility that we will stumble out of the EU without a deal. While the Government seek to make contingency plans for this, by bringing in front of us what one might call no-deal instruments, we will do our duty of scrutinising them as best we can.

So far, the Government seem to have played by the rules. In my view, the rules are set out first in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, but also in paragraphs 7.1 through to 7.9—which are identical in all Explanatory Memoranda that come from the Treasury. I believe they say that there will be no new policy introduced except where necessary to achieve the transition.

I diligently read through the Explanatory Memoranda. I fear that I did not read the instruments with as much care, because, frankly, I would not know how to start. A lot of them relate to other documents and getting up-to-date, amended copies of them is difficult, so I have to judge an instrument on the basis of the Explanatory Memorandum. All it basically does is say that EEA countries become third countries. It then goes on to make the consequential changes, which involve transferring various responsibilities. In relation to this instrument in particular, it also defines high-risk countries, which I can see is important.

I have only two questions. The problem with these memoranda is that the authors know what they are talking about, whereas the reader does not know what they are reading about. Having staggered through the document, when I got to paragraph 2.12, I became exhausted. I shall read what I think is the offending passage:

“The standards are to specify what additional measures are required to be taken by credit institutions and financial institutions with branches or subsidiaries abroad, when national law outside the UK does not permit group-wide policies and procedures to be implemented that are at least as strong as those that are required by the MLRs”.


I hope that the noble Lord can make some sense of that.

My only other comment is on the tone of the memorandum—this is true of other memoranda, but I shall centre on this one for the moment. The obligation to report to EU institutions is removed, and one can see why that is perfectly logical. However, money laundering is an international crime with an enormous impact on ordinary citizens, relating particularly to terrorism and to their wealth, because of the crimes committed and their impact on the economy. It is crucial that, even if we are daft enough to leave the EU without a deal, international co-operation continues. It is not just about taking the law where it is now; it is about the law needing to develop as criminals become cleverer and do different things, and we understand more about what they are doing and what action and international co-operation are necessary.

These regulations are brought before us as no-deal SIs and will be commenced on exit day. It is clear what role they will have if it is a no-deal exit, but if a deal is done and we enter a transition period and then come to the end of it, what will happen to this statutory instrument? Will it be repealed or will it be paused? The answer to that makes a big difference to its impact. If the instrument is merely paused, we are making law for the future. If it is repealed and we essentially start from scratch as part of the negotiation in the transition period, and if sanity then reigns and we complete a deal, this SI will not matter; we will be looking at longer-term ways of managing the problems to which it relates.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, particularly my noble friend, with his background as a Member of the European Parliament.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe; in so far as the Government do not want no deal, we do not expect no deal, and we accept entirely that it will be much better to make progress. He also asked what would happen to this SI if, as I hope, there is a deal. The answer is that the withdrawal Act would switch it off, and it could subsequently be either reintroduced or possibly amended in the light of whatever agreement we came to during the transitional period.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

Could the noble Lord define “switching off” slightly better? Is the law taken out or repealed? The term I have used is “paused”, which is rather different from “deleted”.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I will read out the exact words in my brief: “Are these SIs for a no-deal scenario only? This legislation would not come into effect in March 2019 in the event of an implementation period, which will be delivered through a separate piece of legislation”—as I think I said—“through the EU (Withdrawal) Bill. It could be amended to reflect an eventual deal on the future relationship or to deal with a no-deal scenario at the end of the implementation period”. I hope that that is not too far from what I initially said. Alternatively, it could be delayed until the end of the implementation period with the possibility of repeal or amendment, depending what happens. The answer to the noble Lord’s direct question is that if there was a deal, it would be, in my words, switched off, or, in the words that I have just read out, it would not come into effect, and the withdrawal Act would be the vehicle through which that happened.

My noble friend Lord Kirkhope mentioned the burdens on banks. It is important to focus on the fact that we are talking about relationships with correspondent banks with regard to the standards he referred to. As I understand it, at the moment there are two standards: one for inter-EEA banks and the higher one for outside. In future, there will be one standard, so to some extent it will be slightly easier for the banks. As I said at the outset, in many cases, the banks already provide the higher standards—the enhanced due diligence—even where they do not have to.

In response to the points my noble friend made, which were also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, we plan to have some transitional arrangements. I hope that they will help both my noble friend and the noble Baroness. We have announced plans to grant the regulators a temporary power to phase in these new requirements that would apply to firms in a no-deal exit. This power must be exercised by the regulators in accordance with their statutory objectives, as set by FiSMA. This is a sensible measure to ensure that the firms have the time they need to adjust in an orderly way to the changes brought about by Brexit. The regulators will be seeking industry views on where it would be appropriate to phase in new requirements. However, the short answer to my noble friend is that it is no longer appropriate to treat the EEA differently, so we must either reduce all the standards or enhance them. We have chosen to enhance the standards, which, as I said, meets the higher standards that I think we would expect in any case.

So far as politically exposed persons are concerned, this statutory instrument will not affect the regime for them following exit. My noble friend was rightly concerned about the effect on business and the financial services sector. We believe that the SI will have a minimal effect on businesses across the sector. As I said when I spoke at the beginning of the debate, we consider that the net impact on businesses will be less than £5 million a year. Picking up again on the point made by my noble friend, we understand from the FCA and industry that in practice this already takes place because of the risk that firms associate with correspondent banking relationships. As such, this will lead to minimal increased costs to businesses beyond the status quo.

I turn now to payment services providers which again were mentioned by my noble friend. They will also be legally required to provide a greater volume of information to their EEA counterparts in connection with the cross-border transfer of funds than is currently the case, thus equalising the requirement across third countries. We understand from the industry that this takes place already and any changes will require firms to expand their existing IT systems to firms with which they transact.

On the information requirements concerning the electronic transfer of funds, which was a point I made earlier, HM Treasury has communicated that it will bring forward measures to give the FCA some flexibility to phase in changes to the regulatory requirements on firms under the EU withdrawal Act. They will use the powers to waive or modify some requirements to allow for a smooth transition to the post-exit regulatory regime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend will know that when we leave the EU, the obligation that we already have will be transferred. Thereafter, looking to the future, we will no longer be bound by EU regulation, so the opportunity for gold-plating them will not exist; we will be in control of our destiny. I am sure that my noble friend would not want in any way to water down the robust regime we have in this country to deal with money laundering, terrorist financing and the rest. We must get the balance right, which is what I think my noble friend was saying.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I intervene on that point because there is surely a contradiction. Surely when we leave the EU, the opportunity for the state to gold-plate—take present regulations and make them progressively more difficult—will be unfettered. The Minister has to convince us that, given that freedom, it will not be misused.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord has repeated what I meant to say: at the point of transfer, the existing EU regime is on our statute book. We will no longer be bound by future directives so there will not be the opportunity to gold-plate: we will be master of our own house. Having said that, I am sure that the noble Lord and my noble friend would not want in any way to water down the tough regime we have against money laundering and terrorist finance, but we will be in control of our destiny rather than having to implement directives.

Reverting to the point that the noble Baroness made, the FCA does not expect firms or regulated entities providing services within the UK’s regulatory remit and other stakeholders to prepare now to implement the changes from exit day. The FCA is engaging with the industry extensively to ensure smooth and effective implementation of the changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked me about paragraph 2.12 of the Explanatory Memorandum. The SI confers power on the FCA to make certain technical standards in an area in which it has technical expertise. The transfer of power is necessary because the relevant standards are currently made by the European Commission. The technical standards specify what additional anti-money laundering measures are required to be taken by banks with branches or subsidiaries abroad. These measures include policies and procedures to counter money laundering and terrorist financing, and must be at least as strong as those required by the UK money-laundering regulations.

For example, if a UK bank has a branch abroad in a country that does not have anti-money laundering and terrorist financial requirements as strict as ours, the parent bank must ensure that the branch applies measures equivalent to the UK regulations. If the law of the country in question does not permit such measures, the UK parent bank must take additional measures to handle the risk of money laundering and terrorist financing effectively. The FCA will be able to make technical standards specifying what additional measures such a parent bank may take and the minimum action needed to handle those risks.

The noble Lord also asked about high-risk third countries and how the list will be updated. On exit day, the EU high-risk country list will be onshored and form part of retained EU law. Subsequently, references to the list will be static rather than dynamic, meaning that updates that the EU makes to the list will not flow through into UK law. The list will evolve only as amended by UK law. The Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 gives the UK power to maintain a list of high-risk jurisdictions in connection with which enhanced due diligence needs to be performed. Updates to the list will be made through the affirmative procedure. Therefore, they can come into force before parliamentary approval but will then cease to have effect if both Houses do not approve them within 28 days of their being made. Parliament will have scrutiny on updates, while allowing updates to be made quickly to reflect changing circumstances in third countries. There will be a significant increase on current levels of scrutiny as Parliament has no direct influence over updates to the list at the moment.

Finally, the noble Lord asked how we would co-operate with the EU on anti-money laundering efforts once the UK leaves. National anti-money laundering authorities will continue to make use of international co-operation to detect, prevent and investigate money laundering. There is a legal gateway in the regulations that provides that UK supervisory authorities must take such steps as they consider appropriate to co-operate with overseas AML authorities. Moreover, the political declaration agreed with the European Union contains a statement of mutual intent that the future relationship should cover money laundering and terrorist financing. This includes commitments to put in place arrangements for effective and swift data sharing, allowances to support law enforcement, measures for practical co-operation between law enforcement authorities and agreements to support international efforts to prevent, and fight against, money laundering and terrorist financing.

I hope that I have answered the points that noble Lords have made.

Wheeled Goods Vehicles

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am sorry if the noble Baroness did not understand my reply. What I hope I said was that cement mixers are not exempt; in other words, they have to comply with the sideguard regulations. Since 2012, all new tippers have be fitted with sideguards and we are taking other measures. On 22 November, we published proposals to increase road safety for cyclists, pedestrians and horse riders. The Government are taking a wide range of initiatives to promote road safety. Our roads are among the safest in the world but one casualty is one too many.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the death of cyclists in this scenario is a tragedy. The problem, which I think the Minister has alluded to, is that the vehicles are very heavy and the cyclists are very light. Sideguards are relatively ineffective when turning left over a prone cyclist. The modern technology available that powers alerts with radar or sensing systems and so on, including on modestly priced cars, is here and available today. It is actually on the car that I own. Is the department taking direct action to accelerate the trialling of this sort of equipment on lorries and contemplating regulations to require it to be fitted?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

We are playing our role, in this case along with the European Commission. In May 2018, direct vision for trucks was one of the safety measures included in the European Commission’s review of general safety regulations. We are also supporting measures under the European Commission’s third mobility package further to improve the protection of pedestrians and cyclists. The European Commission is also doing work, which we support, to reduce what it calls the “aggressiveness” of HGV fronts in the context of vulnerable road users. The noble Lord is quite right that there is a lot of work going on supported by the UK which we hope will improve safety for pedestrians and cyclists.

Prisons: Rehabilitation

Lord Tunnicliffe Excerpts

Thursday 6th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bird, on successfully securing this debate. It is both timely and important. As his Question implies, one of the key purposes of prison is rehabilitation. Virtually all prisoners are released one day, so one key job for our criminal justice system must be to do its best to ensure that they do not reoffend. As part of that process, while prisoners are in the care of the justice system they should be safe—not just because that is right but because a dangerous and hostile environment increases reoffending. We would not be discussing this now if the system were working well. It is not.

Thousands of prison officers have been axed since 2010 and the recent turnaround and promised increase is too little too late, while we lose the institutional knowledge and experience of those staff who have left. The staffing shortage has driven the crisis in our prisons, exacerbating levels of violence, undermining officers’ ability to deal with a surge in drugs and affecting levels of prisoner care. Prisoners are spending more time in their cells and less time on useful activities that aid rehabilitation and reduce reoffending rates. It is widely acknowledged that the record levels of violence and self- harm in our prisons are largely a consequence of the significant cuts to prison staffing levels in recent years.

Overcrowding in prisons undermines rehabilitation. Prisoners are held in degrading conditions and often moved far away from families, jobs and other support networks, which are essential to effective rehabilitation. The Government previously announced a £1.3 billion plan to build 10,000 new prison places. Despite repeated questions from Labour, the Government have failed to explain how these places will be funded. Sixty-five per cent of prisons and young offender institutions have learning, skills and work activities that are deemed not good enough by Ofsted. Were this the school system, there would be a national outcry.

Our prison system is suffering an epidemic of mental health problems, with self-harm and suicide at record levels. The figure of 300 deaths in prison custody in the 12 months to September 2017 was up more than 50% since 2010. The Royal College of Psychiatrists says this is in part due to,

“failures in reaching prisoners who need general medical and specialist healthcare”.

Those 300 deaths in custody should be a matter of shame for us all. We have a duty of care to these people; they are human beings and citizens. They may be offenders but, at the end of the day, we have that duty of care. If they were workers, they would fall under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974; society would have a duty to reduce the risk to as low as is reasonably practical. We clearly fail that. Something must change, and soon. We must rid this shame from our society.