Lord True
Main Page: Lord True (Conservative - Life peer)Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Lord True Excerpts
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, as regards my reflecting a party line on this side of the House which is aligned with the views of the National Secular Society, I believe that the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester reflect the position in many parts of the country. This is not a case of religion invading a public space; it is the settled view of society at present. We have debated the establishment of the Church of England. Without going back to the time of Henry VIII, it is a fact that the monarch, as head of the Church of England, is also able to ensure that other religions are respected in this country. I have the highest regard for the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, but I do not think that the examples he gave were at all representative of people feeling excluded, any more than that is true of noble Lords being corralled outside the Chamber in some sort of terrible dungeon waiting to come in after Prayers have been said. I think there is a category confusion in the argument being advanced.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I intervene as a leader of a local authority. I declare an interest as leader of the London Borough of Richmond, where our council meetings—but no others—start with a period of prayer. It is not spoken prayer but is currently admirably led by the mayor’s chaplain, Jeff Hopkin Williams. The prayers do not need to be led by a Christian pastor. In the 30 years I have been on the council, we have had prayers led by people of all faiths and, indeed, by people from the Humanist Association. I respect the views of noble Lords who have spoken about the National Secular Society, but I feel that that society is straining at a gnat and is seeing some tiger or dinosaur stalking the land. What we are actually talking about here is people coming together—I say this to the noble Earl—to conduct public business, sitting down commonly at the start of that business, as we do in your Lordships’ House, and hearing an affirmation from a person leading the prayers with regard to the common purpose of the council. I think back to the prayers that were spoken at our last meeting in which we were asked to respect each other, approach business in a creative fashion, remember that we were in public service and dedicated in the principles of public service. I find nothing exceptionable in that.
Lord Avebury
Is there any reason whatever why those matters should not be dealt with outside the ambit of the official council meeting? Why could they not be covered in a five-minute period before the council meeting starts?
Lord True
They do take place at the start of the meeting. Everybody in a free society can meet whenever they wish, if they wish to have a prayer meeting. I am talking about the opening of a meeting which is intended to conduct public service. It is a common affirmation of principles and it is a moment when we sit together collectively and silently. I personally find nothing offensive in that in any sense. People have an odd idea if they think that council meetings are crowded with people who might be offended by seeing people come in and out. People come in and out all the time, rather as they do during proceedings of your Lordships’ House. There is nothing conspicuous about that.
Of course, we are not elected for our religious beliefs, as the noble Earl said, but we are elected to share a common purpose. Prayers are one of the few moments when those of us who are in the Chamber can be guaranteed to share the principle and spirit of what is being said. I absolutely recoil—
Lord Cashman
Will the noble Lord clarify to the House that I am right in suggesting that he is not implying that those of us who do not involve ourselves in such religions are devoid of those common principles?
Lord True
No, I am certainly not saying that. However, I would vastly prefer it if the National Secular Society did not go round the country seeking to drive out aspects of faith in public life. I would leave well alone and live and let live. I wish to draw my remarks to a close. It would be a great pity if this Bill were not allowed to proceed. I think it would be a disaster if we voted on this issue. I cannot think of anything more calculated to bring division where there is none than taking to a Division the issue of whether we should or should not have prayers, and having that backed by email campaigns and other campaigns. The whole idea is absurd in my opinion.
Baroness Flather
I take issue with the noble Lord’s remark about bringing division where there is no division. This country is not what it used to be. I first came here in 1947 and I have lived here ever since then. It is changing all the time. Huge change has occurred in each decade. The National Secular Society is giving voice to the opinion held by many people. That society is not run by just three or four people. As I said, I am an atheist but I respect everybody else’s faith. I opt out of the Prayers in the House of Lords. I would prefer not to have to do that and would prefer the Prayers to be more inclusive of atheists. There should be quiet reflection or much more inclusive prayers. It is not a case of what the National Secular Society is advocating; the rest of us have changed.
Lord True
My Lords, I wanted to conclude my remarks but I must respond to those comments. My local authority has, and has had, councillors of all faiths and none, including many atheists. My deputy leader is a strong atheist but is very happy to attend the prayers for the reason that I gave. The campaign run by the National Secular Society is of a very different order from the position mentioned by the noble Baroness. This is a process which brings people together, has long had a place in public service and should continue. I strongly support the Bill and hope that these amendments will be rejected.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, like the right reverend Prelate, I also have a declaration to make. I am a Christian—a very fallible Christian—but I find the Prayers at the start of your Lordships’ business extremely helpful in setting the tone and putting everything in context. The only part of the Prayers with which I have a problem is that concerned with setting aside prejudice. As a rather lapsed politician, I balk at that a little. When I served on a local authority, I also found that the prayers set the tone.
What we are seeing in the amendments, which have clearly been helped by the National Secular Society, is something that I do not accept. Many people here attend these Prayers because of the spirit and principles that come from them, even though they may not be believing Christians or indeed part of any other group. I take issue a little with the number of bodies that the noble Lord has included in the Bill—I think we should have a degree of proportionality—but local authorities should certainly be included. We have here in your Lordships’ House a precedent. I am sure that some of those who attended Prayers today do not have a belief but find them helpful in setting the tone for the proceedings which come. But I am confident that even those who were outside and came in later did not feel excluded in any way; nor would those in local authorities or smaller parish councils who stand outside and go in later feel themselves as part of the generality to feel excluded.
It is a part of our tradition that we should cherish. It sets a proper tone and principle. Perhaps we should look again at proportionality, but I—I am sure in common with many Christians and people of other beliefs and non-Christians—find our own service here to be something of value. Perhaps that may be next in line for those who wish to consider excluding from the public space any reference to our Christian traditions. Indeed, I do not find, as my noble friend Lord Cashman said, that Christianity is taking a larger slice, a larger share, of our public space. I find that many Christian traditions are indeed on the defensive. Many Christians are finding it increasingly difficult to express their faith, and there is a multitude of examples of that. Let us return to the status quo ante and recognise the proud traditions—the Christian traditions—of this country, but also embrace new faiths and recognise that many of us find something of immense value here in your Lordships’ House. It is something that those who serve in other councils would find of equal value.
Lord Cashman
My Lords, I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and I will not repeat the evidence that he has put before the Committee. It has been argued by DCLG that, left unchallenged, the High Court ruling would prevent local councillors from, for instance, laying a wreath at a Remembrance Sunday event. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, even suggested that the Bill was necessary to allow councils to close roads so that people attending such ceremonies could do so safely. The High Court ruling simply clarified that local authorities have no power to hold prayers as part of their formal proceedings or to summon councillors to such a meeting and therefore Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act 1972 would apply. It states:
“Without prejudice to any powers exercisable apart from this section but subject to the provisions of this Act and any other enactment passed before or after this Act, a local authority shall have power to do any thing … which is calculated to facilitate, or is conducive or incidental to, the discharge of any of their functions”.
I therefore support the amendment.
Lord True
My Lords, we have heard from noble Lords who have spoken so far that they believe that it is perfectly lawful for what is proposed in the amendment to take place. On the other hand, we have heard that people would like to see the legal advice. I have not heard any objection to the activities that take place, which in general are supportive of the community life of all religious groups and, indeed, of those of no religious faith. If there is a shred of doubt in the law that these proceedings should be able to go ahead, given that there is support in principle even from those who have spoken from a different standpoint from mine, it would be highly sensible to make that clear beyond doubt in this statute. I hope, therefore, that the wording will remain in the Bill.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, like the previous group of amendments, I do not think that any of the amendments in this group would improve the Bill. There is a possibility that they would make things very confused and potentially unworkable. That is not a good way to make legislation. As I said before, the Bill mostly affects lower tiers of local government and some combined authorities, and it is permissive in nature. Amendment 6 would remove the power to support, facilitate or be represented at a number of events.
As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, said, at Second Reading I told noble Lords that while we do not hold prayers at council meetings, we do observe Holocaust Memorial Day. At our last meeting, which was close to the day, we invited the local rabbi to address the council meeting. He spoke to us and then led us in a short ceremony, which was very moving and was welcomed by everyone. As a council, obviously we support Remembrance Sunday. We have two prominent war memorials in the borough. Our elected mayor attends a ceremony at one and the chair of the council attends the other, while other members of the council attend both. The services are both led by local Anglican vicars and people of all faiths and no faith attend those events. This amendment could be confusing for them.
As I have said, I lived in the east Midlands for many years and I often attended the Diwali celebrations held there, along with members of the local council. I now regularly attend the Diwali celebrations which are held in Southwark with my good friend the leader of Southwark Council, Councillor Peter John. As I look at the Bill, those events would potentially be put at risk because the council would be participating in a religious event. I do not think that these amendments would help us at all and I hope that they will be withdrawn.