Defence Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Rosser

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord, but I was expecting there to be a separate debate on Amendment 11 in his name. I am a little confused by the procedure that he is now proposing.

[Lord Rosser]

I understand that I am in order in speaking to the amendments in the group. The two amendments in my name are Amendments 10 and 11, but I will refer later to Amendment 9, which has already been moved. I have been advised that I am not out of order in making the contribution I am making, so I intend to continue.

[Lord Trefgarne]

In fact, it is open to any noble Lord to ask to have a particular amendment debated separately. I do not propose to do so on this occasion, but it is open to any noble Lord to do so if he wants.

[Lord Rosser]

I was talking about our view that Part 1 should be withdrawn and about what happened in Committee. The Government declined to withdraw Part 1. We felt, and still feel, that it should be deleted because it provides for an untested and untried major change in defence procurement which the Government do not now intend to introduce and for which they cannot and will not be able to produce any evidence that it will provide a better alternative at some time in the future than either the existing arrangements or, significantly, the further developed DE&S model, which is not even yet up and running. That will now be a matter for a future Government, if that future Government decide to proceed with the GOCO option.

In Committee, we also moved an amendment, which we regarded as very much second-best behind the withdrawal of Part 1, for a super-affirmative order which would be required to be passed by both Houses before Part 1 could be brought into force. We have included a similar amendment in the group that we are discussing. I do not intend to go through in detail the arguments that we put forward in Committee in support of the super-affirmative. They are recorded in the Hansard of the Committee stage. They set out in detail what the super-affirmative would provide for as set out in these amendments.

The super-affirmative order is not something novel. It has been used by this Government. They added the super-affirmative procedure to the recent Crime and Courts Act in respect of any future order made by the relevant Secretary of State to modify the functions of the National Crime Agency. That super-affirmative provision in the Crime and Courts Act requires the Secretary of State to consult the persons who would be affected by an order to modify the functions of the National Crime Agency and lays down minimum periods for consultation and subsequent scrutiny. It also requires the Secretary of State to have regard to any recommendations or representations made by Parliament during the scrutiny period with the subsequent option of laying a revised draft order. I again simply make the point that we are not talking about a minor change that might be made in the future on the basis of affirmative orders but about an untested and untried major change in defence procurement involving more than £10 billion of taxpayer expenditure each year.

The amendment that has been moved by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, is an improvement on the current provision in the Bill, and we heard from the Minister—if I understood him correctly—that he will come back with an amendment at Third Reading which will be in line with that moved by the noble and gallant Lord. However, while that amendment provides for a White Paper and an impact assessment, it does not provide for an independent assessment or the involvement of the Defence Select Committee prior to an affirmative order being considered. It thus appears not to provide any minimum timescale between the production of the White Paper and the impact statement for consultation and scrutiny before any vote in Parliament.

It is worth pointing out that government departments do not always produce adequate and appropriate information to support orders they place before Parliament. We had yet another example of this only last night in this Chamber in respect of a Home Office order. Your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee had criticised the poor quality of documentation produced by the Home Office accompanying the order and had written to the Minister of State concerned to voice its detailed concerns. When the committee received the Minister of State’s reply, it found that letter equally disappointing and wrote in its report on the order being considered last night that,

“we found the letter to be no more convincing on the merits of the policy than the Explanatory Memorandum”.

Our super-affirmative would address those potential concerns about the quality of documentation as there is provision for independent assessment and the involvement of the Defence Select Committee.

I take note of the intervention by the Minister to indicate—if I can use the expression—the Government’s acceptance of the amendment in the sense that the Minister intends to come back with a government amendment which, as I understand it, will say either the same thing or much the same thing as the amendment tabled by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley. Obviously we will want to look at the amendment that the Government table at Third Reading and determine whether to support it or whether to seek to amend it.

Armed Forces (Retrial for Serious Offences) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Rosser

Monday 8th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am of course grateful to my noble friend for what he said but will make just a few remarks about the Armed Forces (Retrial for Serious Offences) Order. We need to be careful that we do not surround the activities of our Armed Forces, in particular our Special Forces, with such a panoply of legislation that they will have difficulty discharging their duties in the manner that we would wish. Of course the Armed Forces cannot be exempt from the law, but if they are at risk—or fear that they are at risk—of too zealous an application of the relevant legislation, there may be difficulties of a wider kind.

I apologise for going back so far, but some of your Lordships may recall an incident in Gibraltar in 1988 when Special Forces were involved in an operation against IRA suspects. At the time, there was much initial discussion, although it did not go on for ever, as to whether they had complied with the law or not. It was a very finely balanced judgment and a question of whether they had complied with the rules of engagement, as they are called, laid down by Ministers in respect of the use of firearms in circumstances such as then prevailed. I was much involved in the discussion; indeed, there was a very important debate in your Lordships’ House at that time, to which I replied. It was established that they had indeed complied with the required legal provisions and therefore that no question of any offence arose. However, there was a coroner’s examination of the matter in Gibraltar. The outcome of that was not initially certain but eventually it was clear.

It is important that in general terms we do not surround our Armed Forces, and particularly our Special Forces, with such a panoply of rules and regulations that when the time comes for them to do maybe some pretty dreadful—but nonetheless necessary —things, they are inhibited by a possible fear of vexatious prosecution or perhaps a second prosecution, as provided for by this order. I need to be careful, as there is a particular case before the courts at present which must take its course. However, I hope my noble friend can assure me that nothing in this order will create a situation where the activities of our Armed Forces, including our Special Forces, are placed at risk or in greater difficulty.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, we have two orders which, on the face of it, go in slightly different directions. The second order, on the reduction in the number of lay members who sit in a court martial in sentencing proceedings for serious cases where a guilty plea has been entered, could be argued to be weakening the panel, at least as far as lay members are concerned.