House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Grenfell

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I will make only a modest contribution to this debate. As far as House of Lords reform generally is concerned, my view happens to be that we should move to a largely if not wholly elected Chamber. I accept that that is on the whole a minority view, certainly on this side of the House, but that is my view and long has been. I also believe that if we were to have such a Chamber it should have powers not dissimilar to those of the other place, and I can well see that there would be objections to that coming from there. Be that as it may, House of Lords reform generally is back on the agenda, it would seem.

As the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, reminded us—and I share the dismay that he will be leaving us so soon—the Labour Party has apparently published a new policy on this matter. It comes from the pen of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and his colleagues, I understand, but I presume that to be Labour Party policy, or the bones of Labour Party policy, when we get to the next election. I express one dismay about that: yet again the Labour Party seems to be disconnecting itself from the views and wishes of the people. A few weeks ago, Labour Peers assisted in the failure to pass the European Union (Referendum) Bill, which would have allowed the people to express a view on that matter. Now apparently they are proposing a Chamber of largely appointed Peers, which, again, does not seem to represent the essential Labour principles to which we had assumed they were attached.

[Lord Grenfell]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord but I should correct him on one point. This is a report from a group of Labour Peers to their fellow Peers; it does not mean that it is Labour Party policy. It is the views expressed by a group of Labour Peers of what we think might be, and would like to see as, Labour policy. The other point is that we are certainly not recommending an appointed House. We deliberately avoided trying to find an answer to the knotty question of whether there should be an elected or appointed House. That has to wait, in our view, for a constitutional commission.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification. I am particularly grateful because, referring to one sentence in the report—I assume this likewise to be in error—the Daily Telegraph says:

“All hereditary peerages would be abolished and no more should be created”.

Apparently that is not the view of the noble Lord’s committee and I am happy to hear it.

Turning to the Bill, I broadly support what is proposed. At one of the earlier stages—I forget which one—I referred to the problem of overseas convictions of Members of your Lordships’ House. That matter has been dealt with and I am grateful for that. Therefore, I, likewise, hope that the Bill will proceed to the statute book fairly swiftly.

Finally, I would like to refer to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. I am so sorry he is not in his place. He described at some length his wish for some financial arrangements. I think he was saying that they should perhaps not come from public funds but from some other source. I am obliged to remind your Lordships that in 1999, 600 or so hereditary Peers left without so much as a penny. I say to my noble friend the Leader: if support for departing Peers is to come from public funds, I should be very much opposed to that, or if it is to happen it will have to be backdated to include the 600 or so hereditary Peers of 1999, which I dare say will create problems in the Treasury, even more than there are at present. But it would not be just to provide Peers who are allowed to depart now on a voluntary basis, or even on a compulsory basis, with financial recompense when in 1999 not so much as one penny was provided. Of course, I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was proposing, which I think was a private fund of some sort, and that would be a different matter. But I hope that departing hereditary Peers from 1999 might likewise be considered for support from that measure.

I, too, share the hope that the Bill will shortly reach the statute book and will do nothing to prevent that happening.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Trefgarne and Lord Grenfell

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, says that he does not want to do anything in an arbitrary manner. That may well be right as far as this proposal is concerned—although, frankly, I do not think that it is—but that is not the view that he has taken on other aspects of his Bill, when he has made it quite clear that he was not in the least bit interested in waiting for whatever the Government proposed, even though a Bill has been brought forward for consideration by the Joint Select Committee.

Confining my remarks precisely to the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Caithness, to which I have added my name, I think that the age of 75 is about right. At present, most judicial appointments—I think virtually all of them, including magistrates—have to retire at age 70. I do not think that there is any proposal that that younger age would be acceptable as far as your Lordships are concerned. Indeed, in answer to a question from me the other day, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, the Minister for Justice, said that this matter might be reconsidered in legislation next year. I happen to think that 75 would be a good age for magistrates, for judges of all the different courts and Members of your Lordships' House to retire. The amendment has some merit and some force and I hope that your Lordships will agree to it.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I am not sure that I agree with that. We have to be very careful in setting a limit. I declare an interest, being over 75, as one could say, “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?” On the other hand, it is worth remembering that a respected demographer has recently told us that the person who is going to live to 150 has already been born. We have to take into account the fact that the pensionable age is now much higher than it was and that there is still a lot of life left in a lot of people who are aged 75. I agree that we need to reduce the numbers in the House, but this is not the way to go about it. There are other avenues to pursue to reduce the size of the House. I would be very wary of depriving it of the benefit of having some great experts. Under the proposal, when they had passed 75, they would not be invited to return in the subsequent Parliament.