Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I have added my support to all the amendments in this group. The anomaly between the treatment of zig-zag lines at school gates and those by pedestrian crossings is ridiculous. Both involve strong safety issues, and the Government should be able to see their way to including pedestrian crossings, at the very least. They also need to review the regulations about the amount of land taken up as a result of a school entrance. That aspect does not make sense; the amount is far too little compared with what is there at present. That is a technical matter that needs rearranging. The rest of the amendments all seem good common sense. I want to get rid of CCTV, but we cannot get rid of it completely if that will cause a safety hazard.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I too have added my name to these amendments, and I am sorry that the hour of the night that we have reached does not encourage us to give them the full debate that they deserve. I too am looking forward to the Minister’s explanation of why it is necessary to have CCTV enforcement on zig-zag lines outside schools, but apparently not on zig-zag lines by pedestrian crossings. I hope that he will say that the Government recognise that that is rather silly and, as they cannot find a sensible answer to the question why they are doing it, that there will be CCTV enforcement on zig-zag lines by pedestrian crossings.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, will recall the debate—if that is the right word—that we had in Grand Committee, when we had only just received the draft regulations. I think that we all, including the Minister who replied on that day, recognised that the problem outside schools is rather more on the roads adjoining the zig-zag lines. I do not understand why the Government seem unwilling to allow CCTV enforcement on yellow lines adjacent to zig-zag lines outside schools, where there really is a problem. I would like to see a Minister go to a school in my former ward and explain to the people there that the rules cannot be enforced by CCTV on the yellow line, but can be on the zig-zag line. I remember my ward fondly, and I am certain of the answer that both the residents and the parents would give that Minister if he were brave enough, or stupid enough, to go and offer that explanation.

Amendment 56, to which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has referred, deals with impact assessments. As he said, the LGA wants clarification of the grounds on which an EIA—equalities impact assessment—is not to be done, because it understands that one is required under equalities legislation. The noble Lord also mentioned regulatory impact assessments. As he said, the Government say that they have not produced one because they do not believe that their proposals would impact business.

However, I have in my hand a letter addressed to Eric Pickles, dated 30 January, from 11 companies that say that,

“these proposals DO directly affect our business and as such the government should conduct a Regulatory Impact Assessment in accordance with its own procedures”.

Some of those 11 companies are recognised as major companies in the parking industry, and they all say that this will have a significant impact on them, and call for a regulatory impact assessment. It is probably no small feat to get 11 companies all to affix their signatures to a letter, and we all look forward to the Government’s reply to the debate.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

Is the Minister able to answer the question that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, put to him about the number of prosecutions? As I understand it, he does not have that information to hand. The fact is that in the six or seven years of operating the scheme there has not been one single appeal against the issue of penalty charge notices. Would he conclude, as I do, that that suggests there have been very few issued and even fewer judged to have been unfairly issued?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I originally put the question to my noble friend of whether he would be prepared to meet us. He said he will and I thank him for that. I will take up his offer as soon as we can so that we can try and get some sense into this before Third Reading.

I have stood in the same position as the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, and I have at times thought that the brief in front of me was absolute rubbish. I have to say that I think that this falls into that category. This is not about one person putting a bit of rubbish into somebody else’s recycling bag. This is about bringing into the whole country a decriminalised system of enforcement of waste in relation to receptacles, dustbins and whether or not you put your rubbish out in plain bags. If the five pages plus five pages of schedule on this legislation are intended to amend the problem of one unknown person putting one bit of rubbish into another bag, I think deregulation has lost its meaning.

I will not say any more. I am extremely disappointed with the noble Lord’s response. London has its own legislation on many fronts and it always acts responsibly. It has led the way with the decriminalisation of waste collection and changes to the Environmental Protection Act. It is not just being unfriendly and prosecuting people unnecessarily. The whole nature of what I was concerned about in the noble Lord’s briefing has been misunderstood. I hope that that was what it was. I look forward to meeting him and we will make sure that that happens. In the mean time I will withdraw my amendment.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Tope (LD)]

My Lords, I follow my noble friend and, in deference to my other noble friend sitting on the other side of me, I am sure that he did not mean to say that the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea makes a profit from parking because it would, of course, be illegal. I am quite sure that it does not do that. I felt obliged to say that.

Before I speak to the amendment more fully, and with the permission of the Committee, I want to make a small correction to something I said in Grand Committee last Thursday—as I have been requested to do. In col. GC 452 of that Committee’s meeting, I said—or I am reported as saying—that the company, onefinestay, believed that regulation should apply to properties that are the “sole or main residence” of the owner. That is not the company’s policy, and I have agreed to put on record at the first opportunity that the position of onefinestay is that the regulation should apply to all residences, including primary and secondary residences, not simply to one sole or main residence. I have put that on record. I am certain that we will return to this subject at another date and I need say no more about that today.

I return to the thorny issue of parking. For 40 years, until last May, I represented a town centre ward in a London borough. Many, probably most, of the houses and streets in that ward were built before the motor car was invented. Pretty well all the houses there were built at a time when it was inconceivable that the people living in them would be able to afford to own and run a car, let alone two or more, in some cases. One of the consequences is that the basic problem now in what used to be my ward is that there is simply not enough road space to accommodate residents’ own cars, let alone all the other demands on the road space. As a reward for my long service on the council, during my last year there I was given political responsibility for implementing—and, I have to say, changing a little—parking policy. It encouraged me to accept retirement, and I fervently hoped last May that I would never, ever again have to deal with parking issues and parking problems. It follows that I am not entirely grateful to Mr Pickles for ensuring—sounding very much more like Friday night in the pub than anything I would hear on the streets—that I am here talking again about parking policy.

I want to make some fundamental points that I know are not widely perceived. Good parking services in most councils all over the country are there to work on behalf of the local residents and, in most cases, on behalf of motorists, too. I strongly believe that, although I understand only too well why there is a popular impression to the contrary. Having had to deal with the sort of problems that I described, I know from experience that good parking services may not provide the road space necessary to solve the problem but can go a long way to making life more tolerable for residents and manageable for non-residents who need to use those roads and streets.

As has been said—indeed, I began by saying it—local authorities are not allowed by law to make a profit from parking. With deference to my noble friend Lady Hanham, who is sitting next to me, most local authorities are unable to make the sort of income that Westminster or Kensington and Chelsea are able to make. Nor, indeed, do most councils have the sort of problems that those two authorities have to deal with. Most local authorities, including my former authority, do not make a substantial profit—or income; I shall get myself into trouble—out of parking services by the time they have covered all the expenses that are necessary. Such surplus income as may arise is, and has to be, used for transport-related actions. That is important to understand.

We come now to this clause. I think that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made reference to the Government’s consultation on local authority parking policies which took place at the very end of last year and the early part of this year. I think I am right in saying that eight organisations, as distinct from individuals, responded to that. Six of those eight were totally opposed to the Government’s proposals. The two that were not opposed—the motoring organisations—also did not fully support the Government’s proposals, which makes me even more concerned about why the Government—my Government—are still insisting on going ahead with this measure.

As my noble friend Lord Bradshaw has just said, if anything should be the responsibility of a local authority, it should surely be parking services. The local authority, and those elected to represent the local residents, best know the local circumstances and the local conditions, which vary not just from authority to authority but, frankly, from area to area, even from street to street. It is they who are in a position to determine what should and should not be done in implementing parking policy in a local authority area. Given my 40 years’ experience, I wonder why the Government are so foolish as to want to enter this minefield. For that reason, my noble friend Lord Bradshaw put down the proposal that this clause should not stand part of the Bill—that is, to delete the clause altogether. Frankly, I still think that would be the best thing that could happen. If the Government are minded to go ahead with the clause, I certainly accept that the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, would go some way to mitigate it. Therefore, if that is the case, I would largely support those amendments, but I still believe that it is better to leave this matter to local authorities, whose job it is to deal with it.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also said that yesterday afternoon we received a copy of the draft regulations from the Minister. I am very grateful for that and am pleased that we received it in time for this meeting, although I am sure that the Minister and noble Lords will understand that I certainly have not had time in the intervening 24 hours to have a detailed look at it or even to consult those who know far more about it than I do. I hope that the Minister will tell me that I am wrong on this because I want to be wrong, but, from my first impression, it looks to me as if the draft regulations would allow CCTV enforcement of a school clearway—the zig-zag lines—but not elsewhere. In other words, you can use a camera to enforce penalties with regard to the 10 yards round a school clearway but not a little further down the street. From my experience as a councillor with a number of primary schools located in streets such as I have described, that is simply ludicrous. Cars park all the way down the road. The residents want to have enforcement to stop cars doing that or to deal with car drivers who park inconsiderately and foolishly all the way down the road. However, if these regulations were enforced, and if I am correct—as I say, I hope that I am not—we are going to be in a position of having to tell those residents who want the local authority to enforce them, “I am sorry, we can enforce them for only 10 yards. We can’t enforce them down the rest of the road”. I am no longer a councillor, thank goodness, but I invite the Minister to explain to some of my former constituents why the regulations can be enforced for 10 yards but not for the rest of the road. That is just one point that occurs to me, which I hope the Minister will tell me I am wrong about. However, I fear that I may not be.

This illustrates the danger in the Government interfering with all this. The local authorities best know how to deal with this issue and most of them do so well. Of course, mistakes are made and silly things happen sometimes; they should not, but they do. However, we now have a very good appeals system that works fairly. Nobody has suggested that there is anything significantly wrong with that. Why do we not leave the situation as it is? For all these reasons and many more, my noble friend Lord Bradshaw and I wish to give the Government the opportunity to think again and not to enter what I assure them is a minefield and an area where they simply will not win, and to leave it to the local authorities which best know their own areas to carry on dealing with the things that they have had to deal with for many years.

[Baroness Hanham (Con)]

My Lords, I have been mentioned a couple of times by my noble friend beside me, and I am very grateful to him for explaining the policies of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea on the use of parking moneys, and why our roads are so beautifully kept. I remind the Committee at this stage of my co-presidency of London Councils and my former membership of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for the fact that I was rushing down from a Select Committee and was about three minutes late for the start of the debate.

I support what has been said about this being a local authority matter. If anybody who has been involved in local government knows anything about it, there are two things that really irritate residents. The first is planning and the second is parking. How parking is controlled and enforced is totally a matter for local authorities. Noble Lords know as well as I do that Westminster City Council has completely different parking regulations to those in Kensington and Chelsea. They were very difficult to cope with to start with, but everybody has not got used to the fact that you cannot just totally rely on the same things. They have different rules of enforcement, too. Kensington and Chelsea does not employ cameras for parking enforcement, while other councils do. Whose choice is it that that should happen? Why is not that the choice of the borough—how it enforces it? If you do not have cameras, you have to put people on the streets. I came across two today, and one was on a scooter with his little yellow hat on, while one was on his bike with his little yellow hat on. They were running up and down the road. You have to have a bigger army of those to keep up enforcement if you cannot use cameras.

Where is the mischief that has brought about this proposal? Who has been complaining about cameras for parking enforcement? Cameras are used for all sorts of things in our streets, some of them extremely helpful. Some cameras catch criminals and help to protect people who are walking up and down the street. Some provide for the traffic flows. It is very annoying being caught by a camera. I can declare that I was caught by one while sitting at a box junction a little while ago. I did not know that there was a camera there, and I was a bit stuck. I got a traffic fine, and rightly so, because what I was doing was against the law. I was not doing what the law said and hoping that I would get away with it, but I did not. That is because I was breaking the law, and when people go against the law on parking arrangements brought in by local councils, which decide on the parking restrictions, it is up to the local authority to enforce it themselves. That is particularly essential for major cities, where there are really tight areas for parking, as well as in small county towns, which are different to anywhere else.

My former position as a Minister in the DCLG leaves me in no other position than to say that I do not know at all why the department has set off down this road, and it would be a frightfully good thing if it got away from it.

Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the sun has already set; none of us wants to be here when it rises in the morning. I concur with the amendment moved by the noble Lord and I trust that the Minister will accept it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, I can be very brief. The Government cannot accept the amendment. The Government are absolutely committed to ensuring that council tax payers should have the final say on excessive increases and that the case for the inclusion of levies in the referendum legislation is compelling. The Government intend that, once made, the change to the legislation should remain on the statute book and that council tax payers should be protected from excessive increases permanently—not just for a few years. Local authorities and levying bodies would not appreciate the prospect of further change to legislation in three years’ time.

It may be helpful to the noble Lord if I also mention a major practical issue raised by the amendment. In 2016, as in all years, local authorities must set their council tax by 11 March. Any authority triggering a referendum must begin preparations almost immediately, so the referendum will be scheduled for the first Thursday in May 2016. The sunset clause would take effect on 30 April 2016, right in the middle of local authorities’ preparations to hold a referendum. Furthermore, if the amendment is accepted, by that time, the provision would have disappeared from the statute book and rendered regulations relating to the conduct of the referendum and its effect in direct conflict with the legislation on which they are based. That is because they would be based on the definition of the relevant basic amount of council tax, including rather than excluding levies. That would be a recipe for confusion and would not be fair on local authorities or council tax payers. So, for reasons of principle and practicality, the Government are unable to support the amendment, and I hope that the noble Lord is willing to withdraw it.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister. I confess to a little disappointment about that reply, although I wonder whether I should see some encouragement. If the only defect in the amendment is a technical one on timing, perhaps the principle could be accepted. I look forward to that being pursued in another place at another time. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for those rather contrary views. Only three people have spoken, and their views were all different, so that is a pretty good start and leaves me with a fine path through.

The purpose of a statutory notice, as everybody clearly knows, is to inform the public about decisions that affect their lives, their property and their amenity. That is especially the case for issues where the public have a limited period in which to respond.

The Committee was in broad agreement that notices should be easily available for local people and that they are vital for local transparency and accountability. The noble Lord has highlighted the cost of statutory notices and suggested that local newspapers are one of the least effective ways to convey information to people. We do not agree. Research by GfK for the Newspaper Society found that the reach of local newspapers was much greater than council websites: 67% of the respondents to that survey had read or looked at their local newspaper for at least a couple of minutes within the past seven days, compared with 9% who had viewed their council website. Some 34% of adults questioned had not accessed the internet at all in the last 12 months.

The most recent internet access quarterly update from the Office for National Statistics, published in May, shows that 7.1 million adults in the United Kingdom—14% of the population—have never used the internet. Two-thirds of over-75s, a third of 65 to 74 year-olds and 32% of disabled people, as defined by the Disability Discrimination Act, have never used the internet. There are quite a lot of people, therefore, who do not, would not and could not use the internet for these notices.

The GfK research for the Newspaper Society showed that local papers are spontaneously cited as the way in which most people—that is, 39%—expect to be informed about traffic changes, for example. My noble friend Lord Shipley will be interested to know that the next placed source of information is street signs, at 26%—they come immediately to notice. When prompted, 79% of all adults responding said that they expect to be made aware of traffic changes in their printed local paper, second only to street signs and ahead of any other communication channels.

Undoubtedly, the requirement to publish some notices in newspapers comes from an age when there was no access to other means of communication. Under present conditions it could perhaps be removed, but the requirement to ensure that these notices are available easily remains as valid today as it always has.

As I said in Committee, the last Administration consulted in 2009 on removing the statutory requirements to publish planning notices in newspapers and found that that was not well received, as noble Lords opposite will remember. Some 40% of respondents to that survey were against the proposals, with a further 20% giving only qualified support. I acknowledge, of course, that that was four years ago. Things have moved on a bit. However, the party opposite concluded that some members of the public and community groups relied on the statutory notices in newspapers, and was not convinced that good alternative arrangements could readily be rolled out. A recent debate in the other place on alcohol licensing notices showed the strength of cross-party feeling against repealing the requirement to publish the notices in newspapers.

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said that statutory advertising should not go altogether—I think he repeated that today—and that it was more a question of which statutory notices should be reformed and which should continue to be advertised in newspapers. That can already be done, because departments can put forward particular statutory notices for consideration under the Red Tape Challenge, and that provides opportunities to review a statutory notice. The amendment gives little consideration to which statutory notices are important to local people or where there is a case for retaining publication in a newspaper, and that of course would have to be looked into.

In the internet age, it is clear that commercial newspapers should expect less state advertising over time, as my honourable friend Brandon Lewis has made clear, as more information is syndicated for free online. We accept that newspapers need to develop new business models rather than relying on revenue from statutory notices. However, the newspaper industry is very clear that competition with local authority newspapers, for example, can be damaging.

It would be unfair to remove statutory notices in the blanket way that is being proposed while independent newspapers still face unfair competition from local authority newspapers. We must stop this first before looking at other issues. We acknowledge that the DCLG Select Committee’s recommendations a couple of years ago for a review of publication requirements of statutory notices cannot be ignored in the long term.

I hope that with those explanations the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tope]

Before the Minister sits down, I ask her to comment, as she seems to have forgotten to do so, on the reported comments of the Secretary of State that this requirement will be phased out within two years. He was quoted as saying this by I think three or four Conservative councillors separately, while Brandon Lewis, the Minister, has similarly indicated that the Government intend to change the statutory requirement as a quid pro quo for the legislation that we are in the process of passing. Can the Minister not end this uncertainty now and give us some certainty on what the Government’s intentions are and when they are going to be implemented?

Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 15th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I am probably in danger of saying the same thing three times as there is no doubt that these amendments stray into each other. We have heard some pretty wide comments on the code as it stands, which probably go slightly wider than the intention behind the noble Lord’s amendments. None the less, we should be very clear that we are talking about the publicity code. I think that guidance is given to local authorities on seven aspects of the publicity code, their behaviour in relation to it and what it involves. It is a statutory code but compliance is voluntary at the moment. If the Secretary of State had to intervene, it would become mandatory only as regards the aspects on which he gave directions, if that was done across the board. If the Secretary of State gave an individual direction, that would be mandatory only for the relevant local authority. This is not a case of putting the whole code on a mandatory basis but of directing local authorities where they are seriously breaching the current code. We are interested only in those local authorities—and there are some—which are giving rise to concern about their publicity because they are producing far too many weekly or fortnightly publications—the terms of the code are three monthly—or are going beyond the reaches of propaganda or stepping outside what they should be doing and producing publicity which is too political. Those are the areas we are dealing with. As I have said several times, I totally accept that the majority of local authorities comply with the code without thinking about it. It is part of their lives, as it were, and they do not set out to breach it. However, some do and this Bill gives us an opportunity to make sure that they are put under some constraint.

Amendment 25 would require the Secretary of State to be satisfied that a local authority had failed to comply with the code under Section 4. The amendment is not necessary and inappropriate. It would needlessly complicate and risk delaying the exercise of the power of direction, which, as I have explained, needs to be quick. Having the making of a direction formally conditional on this simply opens the door to even more debate, argument and delay. That is not compatible with our aim of rapid, targeted action.

Amendment 28 would remove the power for the Secretary of State to give a direction to an authority whether or not he thinks that authority is complying with the code to which it relates. This would remove the Secretary of State’s power to issue a direction where there was doubt over compliance with the code in the future. It is right, when legislating for a new provision, to ensure that as far as possible the provisions cater for different eventualities so that you do not have to keep coming back to the various aspects but cover them so that they do not need to be followed up.

Amendment 30 would lengthen the period a local authority might continue not to comply with the publicity code. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, agreed with my noble friend Lord Tope that the 14-day period was too short. Local authorities will know perfectly well when they are breaching the publicity code, so a two-week notice period is perfectly reasonable under those circumstances. The notice must be given in writing. A text message or an e-mail will not do. A formal notification must be given, marking the start of the 14 days’ notice. I am sure that the local authority concerned would have plenty of time to raise its concerns.

I return to the important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on the form of the code. The Secretary of State cannot just change the code any old how. Any changes to the code would have to be approved by both Houses of Parliament, and any revision to it can be made only through the negative resolution procedure, so it would have to come before this House. The noble Lord shakes his head but a negative resolution can be turned into a proper debate in this House, as he knows as well as I do. The revision must be laid in draft before each House of Parliament and cannot be laid until after 40 days. This is the norm. If you laid the changes before 40 days, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who keeps an eye on these things, would leap on it after day three. If either House votes against the proposed change, it cannot go ahead. I think that is more or less the situation with any such proposal.

Amendment 35 is similar to the amendment on the notification. I think it is intended to require the Secretary of State to write to individual local authorities—I have already indicated that he will—modifying or withdrawing a direction. Any notification between the Secretary of State and a local authority would have to be in writing.

Our amendment, which makes provision that the exercise of the power by the Secretary of State to ensure compliance with the code in relation to all local authorities in England of a specified description, or to all local authorities in England, should be made by an affirmative statutory instrument, removes the need for these amendments. It would be highly unusual for an order-making power to be subject to a requirement for the Secretary of State to bring it to the attention of relevant authorities. To make special provision for the publicity code in this instance would bring confusion to other order-making powers, and is unnecessary.

Amendment 36 would build on Amendment 30 which, as I have said, would lengthen the period a local authority might continue not to comply with the publicity code. For the reasons I have set out and because we wish to move swiftly where there is an abuse of taxpayers’ money, I see no reason to extend the 14-day period.

Finally, Amendment 37 would require that a direction must take into account whether the authority has demonstrated to the external auditor that acting outside the code is in the financial interests of the authority to whom a possible direction may apply. This amendment would, I am afraid, once again delay the process. Local authorities know when they are spending too much money. In some circumstances, local authorities can act outside the code and issue notices, leaflets and newsletters as long as they are straightforward. I think that we will discuss that later.

This is also unnecessary. The provisions already allow local authorities to make representations before a direction is made requiring them to comply with the code. The 14 days does give them an opportunity to comply. Those representations could include a view from the auditor if the local authority wants it, but we would not require it. Taken as a whole, we do not consider the amendments necessary. I do not suppose that the noble Lord will be entirely reassured by what I have said but we have other amendments and we will no doubt consider them even further. I hope that from what I have said so far, the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for clearly supporting my amendments and putting his name to them. I am not entirely clear whether the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, was supporting them, grudgingly or not, but I am grateful to him for at least recognising my high wire act. I shall endeavour to remain on the wire. I am grateful to the Minister for at least a detailed reply on the amendments. To say that I am disappointed would imply that I had higher expectations in the first place. I am sad to say that I probably did not.

I was surprised at the Minister’s dismissal of the issue of the 14 days to 28 days notice, as 28 days is normal, good practice. It is hard to understand what is to be of such urgency that it can be dealt with under the 14-day notice but is so urgent that it cannot be dealt with in 28 days. I am surprised more than disappointed. The Minister will know that these provisions are causing widespread alarm, much of which I believe to be understandable but misplaced. I hope that in her further replies, which she herself said she will have to make, she will give greater reassurance on a number of the examples that I gave in moving the amendment—whether they are of the more standard publicity-type notices that local authorities issue, such as bank holiday recycling arrangements or notices about public health, or the rather more difficult ones concerning the third runway or HS2. I hope that we can get some reassurance on that.

A great majority of authorities cope within the voluntary code but we know that most local authorities are risk averse. They need to be and should be risk averse. They are advised by lawyers who are by nature risk averse. I fear that the consequences of what we are doing here will be far greater than even the Secretary of State intends. We will continue with this issue. I am quite certain that it will continue throughout the passage of the Bill. I hope that the Government will be willing not to dig in their heels but to look at how they can better and more specifically achieve their objectives than is currently the case. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, happily, noble Lords have not quite agreed on this again, which is always very useful as far as I am concerned, but they have raised issues that are important and I want to acknowledge that.

The purpose of statutory notices is to inform the public about decisions that will affect their lives, their property and their amenity. There are 162 aspects they will need to be informed about but they are all relevant to local people, either individually or in groups. The amendment does not consider the effect on the public or on business and other groups, and would potentially put local people in the dark. We must acknowledge that there are still people who do not access information other than through newspapers. The local paper, where it exists, still fulfils a very public duty in that regard.

Removing statutory notices from the requirement to publish for local authorities would also stifle local transparency and the rights of local people to challenge decisions that impact upon their lives, because they would not know about them. This is a complex and contentious issue, as my letter to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, acknowledged. I do not believe there is any consensus about taking them out of local newspapers even if they cost a small amount to put in.

The burden of statutory advertising is one that we acknowledge, and the Communities and Local Government Select Committee’s recommendation a couple of years ago for a review of publication requirements for statutory notices cannot be ignored in the long term. Against this background, local newspapers remain an important part of local democracy, ensuring that local people are informed about the decisions that affect their daily lives. It is essential that local people have free and open access to information that can affect them or impinge upon them rather than having to rely on other means. I acknowledge that the requirement to publish some notices in newspapers comes from an age which has long since gone—1972 was a very different time from now—and they could perhaps be removed. However, other requirements remain as valid today as they always have been.

Looking at planning applications, there is a limited amount of time for local residents to make representations, yet applications can and do affect their and their neighbours’ quality of life and property. The previous Administration consulted in 2009 on removing the statutory requirements to publish planning notices in newspapers. It was not well received. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, may remember that.

The then Government concluded that it was clear from responses that some members of the public and community groups relied on the statutory notices in newspapers to learn about planning applications in their area. There was no conviction that good alternative arrangements could readily be rolled out. The effect of this amendment would therefore be to reduce public scrutiny regarding, for example, planning decisions, the provision of sex shops, bus-lane fines, casinos, betting shops and councillor allowances, among myriad others. I acknowledge that all 162 are laid out in Amendment 19E, but I have understandably mentioned a few which are important. Although some may be willing to see all these go, we would ask whether the blanket removal of a huge swathe of statutory notices is really in the public interest or ideal. That does not stop us looking at the statutory notices under initiatives such as the Red Tape Challenge, but they are currently as listed.

It is vital that we understand how local people receive and use information in the 21st century. Some make use of innovative technology, and everyone here sits with their little iPads making sure they know exactly what is going on at home when they are sitting here taking important decisions about legislation. However, not everyone is as privileged and not everybody has, or wants, easy access to technology. They like reading what they want in papers and we cannot disregard that.

It is also true that the money that pays for these statutory notices helps to keep local newspapers in existence. That is important to ensure that those who are not going to be tied up to the internet have ready access to information not only about statutory notices but about what is going on their local area. The newspaper industry is clear that competition with local authority newspapers for advertising revenue is damaging their primary source of revenue and preventing newspapers reporting on what local authorities are doing on behalf of local people.

It would be unfair to remove statutory notices in such a blanket way as proposed, particularly while independent newspapers are—as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, acknowledged—under threat and need to be kept in business. A small contribution to that is through the statutory notices, which seems a good use of public money. We would not wish to accept the amendment. With the comments I have made, and with the understanding that the coalition agreement was that we would try to protect local newspapers, I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am searching for the words in the coalition agreement which certainly comply with the amendment. I am, of course, grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. Perhaps it was the way in which I introduced it; there seems to be some misunderstanding. There is nothing in what I am seeking, nothing in this amendment, which removes the requirement to publish statutory notices. What I am seeking to remove is the requirement to publish them in local newspapers; that is an important difference. I entirely agree, and wholly sympathise, with the view expressed by several speakers that by no means everybody accesses the web or electronic means of communications. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, may well receive his parish notices by e-mail, but I suspect that not all in the parish study the parish e-mails. Maybe one day that will be the case, but it is not yet and I do not suggest that it should be.

This amendment would still require local authorities to publish their statutory notices, but it would require them to do so in a way that they thought likely to bring them to the attention of persons who live in the area. That could be in the local newspaper—perhaps in a better form than most statutory notices—by e-mail or on their website. Possibly the most effective way is still on a piece of paper put through the letterbox, which is still, I suspect, where many people get their information on planning applications and other matters of direct interest to their immediate vicinity. It is for the local authority to decide, depending on the circumstances of its own area, which is the most effective and cost-effective way of meeting a statutory requirement to publish public notices. Among the least effective ways is this statutory notice—with which we are all familiar but which is seldom read—published in the back pages of a newspaper.

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[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I, too, have some concerns about this clause although I am a little unsure about whether to raise these concerns on these amendments or perhaps in a few minutes in the debate on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. However, I will deal specifically with Amendment 19BB, which deals with the issue of retrospection. The case has been well made with particular instances. I have concerns about the retrospective nature of subsection (15) on rather practical grounds. By the time this Bill is enacted, all attention will be focused on the next financial year and not the current one. For the Secretary of State, whoever that may be at that time, to be penalising authorities at that stage for acting lawfully at the time when they took the action in respect of this current financial year seems to be both wrong and impractical. Should the Secretary of State take that view, what will be the practical implications by the time we are very nearly through the current financial year? I hope that when the Minister responds in a moment she will at least be able to give us some reassurance on the particular issue of retrospection, which is causing quite proper practical concern as well as political and philosophical concern.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as I understand it, the noble Lord has grouped together Amendments 19BB and 19BC. Amendment 19BB challenges the Secretary of State’s power to determine categories of authority and to set excessiveness principles which apply to them accordingly. Subsection (15) makes it explicit that, in doing so, he may differentiate between authorities on the basis of past council tax decisions. The amendment would remove subsection (15) because of concerns, as raised in our discussion, about retrospection and about it providing much wider powers to the Secretary of State when setting excessiveness principles.

I am happy to confirm that subsection (15) does not apply referendum principles retrospectively. It does not make any changes to the setting of council tax in previous years or change the referendum limits that applied. The Government were clear before council tax and levies were set for 2013-14 that they would take into account the decisions taken by local authorities on council tax in setting future principles. As already stated, no changes will be made to those principles that applied in 2013-14 or, indeed, to any other year. Both authorities and levying bodies can continue to plan accordingly.

In light of the fact that local authorities have had a pretty clear indication that their decisions for 2013-14 would be taken into account—what they did, where and why—in setting future principles, there is no argument that authorities were not aware of the Government’s intentions or justification for accusations of unfairness, given the Written Ministerial Statement of 30 January 2013, followed by an information note sent to all to local authorities on 8 February. Decisions taken on council tax increases for 2013-14 were taken in full knowledge of those warnings. Subsection (15) does not radically extend the Secretary of State’s existing powers. It clarifies those powers and removes any doubt as to whether they allow him to continue to take into account past council tax decisions when making decisions on the following year.

Amendment 19BC would provide that during a transitional period specified expenditure could be exempt from inclusion within the calculation on whether a council tax increase was excessive. The noble Lord will be aware that the excessiveness principles, which are set annually, already allow for different principles to be set for different categories of authority. For this reason, I assume this amendment is intended to press the case for the additional flexibility that we have been talking about.

It is intended that the detailed excessiveness principles for 2014-15 will be made later in the year. However, the principle will remain that local taxpayers should be protected from unwanted excessive council tax increases. It is local residents who should have the final say on whether to accept an excessive increase. We recognise that there may be specific reasons as to why a particular local authority may wish to set an increase above that level; the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, referred to the city deal in Leeds, and the noble Lord, Lord Smith, referred to Manchester. The city deal with Leeds on private sector investment has been predicated on increases in levies from the West Yorkshire Integrated Transport Authority. It is right that the levy set by the 22 elected councillors from the five district councils that manage the authority should be treated in exactly the same way as the costs of every other local authority investing in local transport projects. The Government accept that neither this nor any other city deal is dependent on setting an excessive council tax increase, nor that excessive increases in levies were agreed as part of the deal. The chair of the West Yorkshire Integrated Transport Authority put it well himself. He said that,

“transport will be managed locally rather than from Whitehall, with decision making to suit local needs, accountability to Council Tax-payers and creating a transport network fit for purpose”.

Local decision-making and local accountability to council taxpayers are what the current clause would provide by extending the transparency of decisions taken by bodies funded from council tax receipts and ensuring that local residents have their say when those decisions would require larger increases. In summary, the Secretary Of State already has flexibility to set referendum principles that address particular situations and the right to take into account the 2013-14 council tax level. With those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendments.

Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 24th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I express my appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for raising this issue, because I know it is one of concern. Indeed, it was one of the concerns, as I think he mentioned, expressed by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, best known to us all as CIPFA. One of the concerns that it raised in its Second Reading briefing was that the wider scope of public audit has not been fully embedded in the Bill. This is perhaps an example of that. CIPFA makes the point, which those of us familiar with local government will understand very well, that public audit is a good deal wider than private sector audit. I do not think I need to labour the point. We are looking forward to the Minister’s response, which I see she is eager to give us.

[Baroness Hanham]

Too eager, perhaps. I say at the outset that we are absolutely clear that the auditors must be competent, appropriate and steeped in local government finance. We should start there, with that as the interest common to us all, to make sure that any changes are made in the most appropriate way so that we can be sure of getting the same high standards of auditing that taxpayers expect and to which they have been accustomed.

The Bill sets out a pretty robust regulatory regime. The National Audit Office will have to develop the underpinning code of audit practice and produce supporting guidance that will set out how auditors perform their role. What this means, essentially, is that the boards going for public audit will not change. In addition, the future local audit framework will require all auditors to be suitably qualified and competent to carry out local audits.

The Bill requires auditors to hold an appropriate qualification. This is either a qualification recognised under Part 42 of the Companies Act 2006, for a statutory audit, or another qualification recognised under this Bill. The Secretary of State will be able to make regulations setting out the minimum requirements that other qualifications will need to meet in order to be recognised for the purposes of local audit.

It is clearly crucial that local auditors are, as I have said, suitably qualified, that they attain an appropriate qualification and that that demonstrates that an individual understands, among other things, auditing standards, accounting standards and audit procedures. These standards and skills must be applied to audit assignments regardless of whether they are in the public or private sector.

However, while holding an appropriate audit qualification is necessary, it is not sufficient in itself for those individuals within firms assigned responsibility for signing audit reports of local bodies. What is important for local audit is that auditors have the skill and experience of local audit, which includes understanding the wider scope of public audit. As such, we believe that the amendment is unnecessary as the Bill requires all individuals to have this appropriate level of competence to carry out local audits, regardless of whether they hold a qualification under Part 42 of the Companies Act 2006 or another one recognised under the Bill. This critical requirement regarding competence is set out in paragraph 27 of Schedule 5. The amendment would apply only to the other qualifications recognised under the Bill, and not those recognised under Part 42 of the Companies Act.

It maybe helpful for me to outline briefly how the framework works for the companies sector and then explain how the framework for local audit will ensure that all local auditors understand the wider scope of public audit, thus removing the need for this amendment. Under the Companies Act, it is for the recognised supervisory body to set out the requirements for approving those individuals who will be responsible for signing audit reports for companies. The requirements established by the recognised supervisory bodies are subject to agreement and oversight by the Financial Reporting Council. Once an individual has been approved to sign an audit report of a company, it does not follow that they could sign such a report for any company. That individual would need to be competent to sign the audit report of the specialism of that particular company; they would need to have the relevant skills, experience and knowledge of the relevant subject matter of the company or industry in which they work.

We are replicating this framework for local audit. The recognised supervisory bodies for local audit will have responsibility for approving the individuals nominated by its member firms for signing the audit reports of local bodies. This will also be overseen by the Financial Reporting Council. Under rules that it will agree with the Financial Reporting Council, a recognised supervisory body will approve an individual to take a key responsibility in the audit of a local body only if that individual has an appropriate level of competence to carry out local audits. A firm that cannot demonstrate that a nominated person has recent experience of auditing a local body and understands the wider scope of local audit will not be considered competent and therefore cannot be approved by the recognised supervisory body.

To provide further assurance on this issue, I should also say that there are established standards and professional obligations with which firms must comply regardless of whether they are appointed to a company or a local public body. In particular, the international standard on quality control requires all firms to have policies and procedures that ensure that individuals have the right knowledge and experience to undertake a specific engagement. For local audit, this would mean that a firm could not put forward an individual to be responsible for a local audit if that individual did not understand the wider scope of public audit. If it did so, it would be in breach of its obligations and would risk breaching the terms of its registration with the recognised body.

The noble Lord, Lord Tope, raised the question of CIPFA and the discussions that have taken place. It may be helpful for noble Lords to know that I recently saw and had discussions with CIPFA about this, and it is being closely involved in discussions that are going ahead with the council, so its views are well taken into account. We recognise that it is probably one of the very few bodies with qualifications that continue to exist for auditors who will be required to do this work.

The register will be published when we see the draft regulations, which will be available at the next stage in the Commons. The register will be published in 2016, in time for the local appointment of auditors. We have discussed the question of how many firms will be able to do this, and I remember saying earlier that we hope and anticipate that smaller local firms will be able to get their staff qualified, if they do not have that qualification, so that they can bid for contracts. We expect that the smaller, new contracts will open up the market to smaller firms. We are anticipating that this will not just be the big four or the bigger four and three bidding—which I think got us to seven before—and that there will be increasing competition. We believe that there should be plenty of smaller companies available, once local authorities start to appoint their own auditors.

I hope that has picked up the points on the register and those made by CIPFA. I know that it is involved in what is going on to ensure that these regulations and qualifications are satisfactory.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

That would have made four.

I hope these discussions have assured noble Lords that we intend this to be a strictly dated clause, but the flexibility is needed. It will allow for adjustment of affordable housing requirements only where it is justified and clearly evidenced. In this way, we expect to deliver more housing, both private and affordable, than would otherwise come forward. I think everybody in this House agrees that that is essential.

This is not intended to be a permanent measure. We are happy with the sunset clause but think that we might need a little extra time. This is the easiest way of doing it without having to bring in primary legislation. We can extend this on an affirmative order. I hope that the noble Lord will feel satisfied and will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply and for the reassurances she was able to give. I draw comfort from the fact that first and foremost the answer lies with local authorities getting their local plans in place and ensuring that any agreements they negotiate or are negotiating are properly viable. I accept that in the first instance it is for local authorities to do. I thank the Minister for her confirmation of what we knew, which it is useful to have on the record, that this measure is subject to the affirmative procedure and that, should the Government of the time wish to extend, they will have to produce evidence to both Houses. I hope that both Houses will do their utmost to ensure that there is robust evidence should that eventuality arise. Most of all, I draw some comfort from my expectation that it will not prove necessary. That is, I think, a hope shared on all sides of the House. I believe that will be the case. Time will tell, but in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, as this is the first time I have spoken at this stage I, too, must again declare my interest as a member of a local planning authority in London. Briefly, I echo the sentiments of both my noble friends who have just spoken; even though they started by disagreeing with each other, in effect they are saying the same thing. I recall recognising at Second Reading that the Minister is well known for listening, and saying that on this occasion I hoped that she would not only listen, characteristically, but hear and be able to act accordingly. I am grateful that she has indeed listened and heard and that we have these welcome amendments. I rather gather that the government amendments are being welcomed on all sides of the House. While not making this clause perfection, they have certainly improved it considerably.

In saying that, I have had the chance only to have a very quick look at the consultation results, which we received fairly late yesterday. I am a little surprised that there is so much support for the proposals in Clause 1, including from local authorities. I cannot help wondering whether, if we were to consult now—I am not suggesting that we should—on Clause 1 as it is likely to read after today, we might see even better results. With the reassurances that have been, and I think still will be, given on it, Clause 1 has been made far less onerous than when we first looked at it. I welcome the movement from the Government and their amendments before us today. They do not go as far as some of us would wish but they go considerably further than we might have hoped at an earlier stage and we on these Benches certainly welcome them.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, we are running slightly out of order so, with the leave of the House, I will speak now and the noble Lord can respond after me.

I am glad that most noble Lords have had an opportunity to see the consultation. I made it clear in Committee that I would try to ensure that the consultation responses, at least, were available to the House, and that is what we have done. It would be fair to say, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has done, that with any consultation parts are agreed and parts disagreed. If I did not misunderstand my noble friend Lord True, he suggested that we might dismiss anything that had come in from a local authority. I can assure him categorically that that is not the situation.

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[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I have two bits of comfort, if I can voice it like that. First, I think that local authorities that are in the designated zone will be very aware that they are and the Local Government Association is well prepared now to help them. Secondly, the figures that they can see at present may make them feel at risk once they have done that, but they can then approach the Local Government Association for help to see whether they can improve their figures going up to October.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his support so far and I am grateful to the Minister. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, in urging me to consider testing the opinion of the House, that we would have to listen very carefully to what the Minister had to say. I am grateful to the Minister for spelling out the whole process so fully and thoroughly. We will all want to look at it a little more carefully and read it in Hansard tomorrow, but it seems to me that she has gone a long way towards meeting the intentions of my amendment.

As I believed to be the case, she has confirmed that the intention is to seek improvement and not to punish. She has confirmed that it will be a sector-led approach, that discussions have taken place with the Local Government Association and that it will fully co-operate, help, support and lead that. She has rightly said that those authorities that are likely to be at risk under the criteria, which, as she rightly says, are set at a very low threshold, already know that they are at risk. I believe that, since the Bill was published last autumn, those authorities that feel themselves to be at risk are already showing some significant signs of improvement.

I feel that the Minister has accepted the intentions of my amendment; indeed, she has accepted almost everything but the words themselves. Having achieved that much, I feel that it is right and proper at this stage to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Tope]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Shipley and I have added our names to Amendment 13, to which the noble Lord, Lord True, has spoken. I strongly echo all that he has said; indeed, I think we find ourselves so much in agreement that our respective council groups will be getting very alarmed by our togetherness. I will not repeat what he has said or what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, has said, with which I also strongly agree.

I want to use this amendment and this opportunity to return to the position in Greater London, about which I spoke in Committee. At that time, I pointed out that the Mayor of London—the office, not the post-holder—is responsible for strategic planning in London; that the mayor is elected and democratically accountable both to the elected London Assembly and to the electorate of London; and that if any London planning authority was unfortunate enough to find itself designated, it would surely be far more appropriate and satisfactory for the Mayor of London to take the place of the Planning Inspectorate, with his far greater level of local London knowledge.

In reply, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, said:

“We gave the reassurance that applications of potential strategic importance would be notified to the mayor very quickly once they had been received by the Planning Inspectorate, so that he will be able to act immediately should he wish to intervene”.—[Official Report, 22/1/13; col. 1101.]

He described that as a more practical approach than having the mayor, in effect, taking the place of the Planning Inspectorate in London. That sounded reasonable and reassuring in theory, but I want to use this amendment to understand better how it is intended that that would work in practice. Will it happen through regulation or through some form of gentlemen’s agreement —and who knows, one day the mayor might not be a gentleman? To what extent will the mayor be able to take responsibility for dealing with the appropriate applications in London when an authority has been designated and, if it is still PINS, what notice will PINS take of what the mayor, with that responsibility, has to say?

I think the Minister is aware that I was going to raise these points. I seek clarification for me, the mayor and the mayor’s office, who are similarly not sure whether or not to feel reassured.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I hope I can be reassuring on all the aspects that have been raised. We are fully aware of the necessity to ensure that residents and local communities are involved in any planning application. In any planning application process, effective community involvement is essential. It is a priority that we have been pursuing vigorously through the various planning reforms.

In Committee, I tried to be clear that we will ensure, through secondary legislation, that there is no reduction in the rights of communities to become involved where applications are made directly to the Secretary of State. Let me go into that a little further. There will be no dilution of the legislative safeguards to enable communities to become aware of applications made to the Secretary of State, to comment on them and to have their views taken into account; nor will any less weight be given to their views on the planning issues involved.

Indeed, the existing primary legislation will require a planning inspector, when making a decision on such an application, to take all material considerations into account, just as a local planning authority would. The decision would have to be made in accordance with the development plan unless there are any material considerations that indicate otherwise. Again, that is no different from the approach that a local planning authority would have to take. The local authority will, of course, be able to put its own representations to the Planning Inspectorate with regard to the application.

It was a major element of the Localism Bill that there should be pre-planning discussions, and we expect those to take place as well. This is not a fast process from that point of view. You would expect pre-planning discussions to take place before the application was lodged, because otherwise they are not worth having. That aspect will still continue. We are trying to ensure that the important protections in town and national planning policy are taken fully into account, whether the decision is made by a planning inspector on behalf of the Secretary of State or by the local planning authority.

Through secondary legislation, we will ensure that the relevant documents for applications made directly to the Secretary of State are made available at the offices of the local planning authority as well as on the planning inspector’s website. I can also confirm that our intention is that there should be short local hearings. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, asked whether hearings and discussions would be held to consider the views of key parties where a case has raised issues that should be considered in public. I hope noble Lords will understand that we are very anxious that local communities are not excluded from this process and that it is as transparent, as it would be were the local planning authority dealing with it.

My noble friend Lord Tope raised the question of the Mayor of London. Schedule 1 allows the Mayor of London to retain his ability to call in any applications of potential strategic importance for the capital where an application is made directly to the Secretary of State. To ensure that the mayor is made aware of any such application as swiftly as possible, the Planning Inspectorate will make an immediate assessment of whether any application it receives falls into this category. If it does, it will notify the mayor’s office without delay and he can then decide whether he needs or wants to call in the application for his own decision. I hope that addresses the point made by my noble friend.

The Town and Country Planning Act makes specific provision for parish councils to be notified of proposals in their area. It was a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, neither of whom are in their places today. I reassure them that parish councils will have to be notified of proposals in their area where they have notified the planning authority that they wish to be kept informed. It is voluntary as far as they are concerned.

I have two amendments in this group. Amendment 17 responds to the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, which I have just discussed, and will make it a statutory requirement for the Secretary of State to inform parish councils of any applications that affect them, provided that they have asked to be notified of the applications, which seems reasonably fair. Amendment 19 makes a minor consequential change to Schedule 1.

In the light of what I have said, while I understand and sympathise with the intention behind the amendments put forward by the noble Lords, Lord True, Lord Tope, Lord Shipley and Lord McKenzie, and spoken to very supportively by my noble friend Lord Deben, I do not think that these additional changes are necessary to ensure that effective community involvement is seriously taken into account where applications are made to the Secretary of State. As I have said, we will ensure that secondary legislation requires the same degree of consultation with communities as primary legislation, which sets out the requirements that apply when applications are made to the local planning authority. We will of course ensure that the House has an opportunity to consider the secondary legislation that deals with these matters when the time for that is ripe.

With those assurances, I ask the noble Lords not to press their amendments.

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[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am inclined to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, but then to speculate that if that perfect world existed what function would we be left with?

Three months ago I would have had little, probably no, hesitation in joining the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. When first published, this clause was really the antithesis of localism, which we spend so much time debating. It was clearly centralist and unsatisfactory. Even after some welcome reassurances on Report in the other place, at Second Reading, I still felt that it was unacceptable.

In moving his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, acknowledged that the Minister had moved “a little”, I think his precise words were. That was uncharacteristically ungenerous of him. The Government have moved very substantially on this clause. I have not become an enthusiast for it but I acknowledge that pressure from all sides of this House, some excellent work by the Minister and her colleagues, and other Ministers who have been prepared to listen and hear—to echo my earlier words—have made this clause very much less harmful than it might have been. We have criteria, which will be subject to parliamentary approval, proposed at a very low threshold that, as set now, would catch, if that is the right word, few local planning authorities. We have a process whereby local planning authorities will have good warning of when they are at risk and ample opportunity to improve.

We have heard that that improvement will be sector-led and that the LGA has been in discussions and is prepared to work with local planning authorities at risk and to help them reach the necessary improvements so that they do not become designated. If after all that a local planning authority is performing so badly, it probably deserves to be designated. We are looking at an incentive to improve and not a deterrent to punish. I believe that after the criteria that we have put in place, and the provisos and reassurances that we have had, very few local planning authorities will actually get designated. I understand why the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, fears that, at least in part, that may in part be because the quality of decision-making is reduced particularly to meet timescales, or, to be less particular, on important issues such as design.

We will have to see, but given how few local planning authorities currently would meet the criteria for designation, I am not too worried about that. If it looks to be the case, we will have to tackle that, but I am not too worried. As I said previously, if at the end of this process the local planning authority is still so bad that it meets the criteria for designation, that may very well be the last resort that has to be taken, but even when we get to designation we should remember that major planning applications will not be required to go PINS; that will be the choice of the developer. The local situation may be so bad that the developer makes that choice, but my guess is that in most cases the developer would still prefer to stay local and stay working with a local planning authority, where by that stage no doubt the relationship would be far from perfect, but there would still be a relationship.

I start to wonder whether this clause—not that it is undesirable—may not be necessary and whether the Planning Minister’s hope and aspiration that it will never be necessary to use it may well come about. Like my noble friends, I have been reassured during the process of the Bill and, perhaps unlike the noble Lord, Lord Deben, I am pleased that we have been able to go through the process, although I would rather not have been in that place in the first place. On that basis, I am prepared to accept the Government’s wish to have this clause as an incentive not a deterrent to encourage those local planning authorities whose performance is far from perfect—and we all acknowledge that they exist—to improve themselves.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I think my noble friends Lord True and Lord Tope for their encouraging words and for their recognition of the amount of work that has been done in this House—and we should acknowledge the fact that the House has played a very important part in the changes that we have been able to make in this Bill. I understand that there are still real concerns about it, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred again to localism. This is not an issue of localism but of ensuring that local people get a proper planning service and that local developers get a proper result from the applications that they put forward.

This is not a measure that we take lightly. It is something that we are very serious about because we believe it to be both necessary and appropriate. We are very clear—and I want to emphasise this—that planning decisions should continue to be made locally wherever possible but, as I have emphasised throughout our discussions on this clause, we should be prepared to act where standards have fallen to a wholly unacceptable level. Noble Lords will agree that the criteria that they are working to at the moment would constitute being at a wholly unacceptable level. That is no different from the approach that previous Administrations have taken, and I have pointed out how the criteria were adopted by schools, hospitals and other services under previous Governments. We should be prepared to do the same for planning, not least because of the role that it plays in supporting growth as well as being an important community service in its own right.

We listened carefully to the arguments made in Committee, and the amendments that we have brought forward put beyond doubt that this measure can be used only where it is clear that performance is inadequate and that the ability to apply directly to the Secretary of State will be open only to those seeking approval for major development. We have defined that, too. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, the choice of where this application is heard will still be in the hands of the developers; it is their option to go to the Planning Inspectorate if they are not happy having the application heard by a designated council, but they do not have to. They can leave the application and have it heard in the normal way by the council, if that is their choice. I agree, too, that some developers work very closely in particular areas and therefore have a relationship that is wholly proper with their local authorities.

I also indicated that Parliament will have the opportunity to consider again the criteria for designating authorities before they are finalised and before any changes are made to them in future, if they are to be made. By using transparent criteria, with data published on a regular basis, planning authorities will be clear about whether their performance needs to improve to avoid designation, and through the support package that we have been discussing with the LGA we hope and expect that the number of designations in future will be very limited indeed.

Of course, we also anticipate that the mere existence of this measure will encourage timely and well considered decisions by planning authorities and so avoid the need for designations. I do not accept the argument that local authorities will now rush around trying to get planning decisions through in 13 weeks to escape or grind up slightly from the percentage that might hit the criteria. We have made it clear that they do not need to rush; they need to make a very focused effort on plans. If there are reasons why the planning applications cannot go forward in the normal timescale, then the planning agreement signed and agreed between the local authority and the developer will be recognised as the reason why it has taken longer than normal.

For those authorities that are designated, we are clear that we are not removing any powers from them in any way. The Secretary of State is intervening in only a very marginal area.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, referred to the planning and development grant. I point out to him, as I am sure he knows, that planning fees have increased by 15%, and there has been an extra contribution to local authorities from that point of view.

I believe that this clause remains a necessary measure, albeit one of last resort. We have put beyond doubt how it may be used, and thought carefully about an approach to assessing performance that is fair, transparent and minimises any risk of perverse outcomes. My noble friends Lord True, Lord Tope, Lord Deben and Lord Judd—well, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is a friend, but not in this instance—have underlined what I have been saying. There is a need for this, however limited the need may be. I ask the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, to withdraw his amendment; if he does not and he presses it to a Division, I ask the House to reject it.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 28th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that although he was making a very wide-ranging speech on Clause 6, his amendment is after Clause 5 and relates to one very specific matter. He has also coupled this with Amendment 55F, which appears in the ninth group today, way down the agenda, and which is not grouped with the first amendment. I wondered whether, before going any further, we might agree to speak to the amendment which is being moved and only that one for the moment. The noble Lord has tabled a whole parcel of other amendments to which he will want to speak to some extent, and we will get very confused if we do not go through the amendments in order.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, and will do my best to comply with the request. However, I thought it was very helpful, as it was intended to be, for the noble Lord, Lord Best, to set out fully and comprehensively the context in which we approach this. The Minister is of course right about where this amendment applies but one has to see it in the wider context and the noble Lord, Lord Best, did that very well.

The noble Lord has explained this amendment very fully. We are all too familiar with sites all over the country where planning consent has been given, somebody has come along a few months later and perhaps dug a couple of holes, and that is a “material operation” which satisfies the condition that the development shall have started. However, particularly in the current climate, nothing then happens for years and years. I have such sites in my boroughs. I look around the Chamber and see people nodding—we are all familiar with that position.

This amendment, or something very like it with the same purpose, would do great service in strengthening the intentions here—I nearly said the intentions of Clause 6, which is not quite right—to get development moving and to start getting the building. We are not really trying to start development here, we are trying to complete it. Starting by digging a few holes in the ground achieves nothing—what we want to see is the housing being built. Unless we have a clause or amendment similar to this one which requires developers and local planning authorities to decide in advance what is a “material operation” and what properly determines what starts a development, which would mean a lot more than just a tiny bit of infrastructure or my proverbial two holes in the ground—which is not just proverbial, I know places where it is quite literally that—then it is not going to be effective. The noble Lord, Lord Best, mentioned that planning consents already exist for 400,000 homes that have not been started. No doubt on many of those sites there are those two holes in the ground, but there is no sign of any homes materialising. If we had this obligation as part of the requirements that will follow in Clause 6, that would serve, to a significant extent, to ensure not just the starts but the much needed completions.

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[Baroness Hanham]

For the moment I am going to say to the noble Lord that it is not quite relevant to this amendment but I would like to consider it further and perhaps come back to him at a later stage.

Clause 6 introduces a fast-track application and appeal process to ensure that quick decisions can be made on stalled sites. These amendments would undermine this simplicity and add complexity, for very little benefit. Amendments 55AC and 55AE seek to bring into the application process consideration of the development plan and strategic policies contained in it. The development plan will already have been taken into account when the decision to grant planning permission was first made and the development plan will presumably be the same at this stage as it was then. I am aware that local planning policies may include policies for the delivery of affordable housing to meet local needs. It is usual practice to apply these policies in the context of individual site viability. The effect of this clause is to help deliver those policies by bringing forward viable development. It does not require a revisiting of the local plan.

Amendment 55AE seeks also to require an assessment of whether an alternative form of development would be economically viable. This would tie the process into lengthy consideration of alternative schemes. The effect of this amendment would be to establish a complex and lengthy process and clearly act as a deterrent to developers. Similarly, Amendment 55AC seeks to prevent a determination to reduce affordable housing requirements if modifications to other planning obligations would be more appropriate. There is nothing to stop the local authority agreeing to vary any obligation on a voluntary basis, as has been said a number of times this evening. The authority could negotiate with the developer to alter the Section 106 agreement outside the process of this legislation if that would be beneficial to both parties. The purpose of Clause 6 is to provide a quick, targeted review process based on viability related to affordable housing only. The imminent regulation change, which provides for a full review of Section 106 agreements in pre-April 2010 obligations, will enable these older agreements to be reviewed across the piece.

I do not think it helpful to bring community infrastructure levy payments into this consideration. The community infrastructure levy has been introduced to provide a non-negotiable levy that is up front and predictable, and set at the local level in accordance with local viability. Local authorities do not have a general discretion to waive or reduce community infrastructure levy payments. The regulations make provision for exceptional circumstances relief but this is subject to strict criteria.

Amendment 55AD seeks to require that the authority must assess the affordable housing requirement to be the sole reason for the site being economically unviable before it modifies the requirement. This amendment is not necessary. The current drafting requires that if the affordable housing requirement means that the site is unviable, the council must vary the obligation. The applicant will have to present evidence to the authority to demonstrate this. The local authority will have regard to this evidence and have the opportunity to prepare its own evidence to justify any decision.

Affordable housing often comprises the largest single contribution on residential schemes, which is why we have focused there. Research from 2007 and 2008 found that about 50% of all planning obligations are for affordable housing. The local authority and the developer are free to renegotiate any aspect of a Section 106 agreement on a voluntary basis at any time. If an obligation which is not affordable housing is causing the site to be unviable, both parties are free to negotiate around that item.

Amendment 55CA would allow land transferred at nil cost to be excluded from the assessment of viability. I understand the importance that land transfers of this type play in creating mixed communities. This is particularly important in high-value areas. I can understand the temptation to think that we should exclude land transfers from the assessment of economic viability. However, the value of this land can be a significant cost to house builders. It is right that the value of this obligation is considered as part of the overall economic viability of the scheme. If the value of that land transfer is causing the site to be unviable, it should be adjusted; this does not necessarily mean removed completely but adjusted to suit economic conditions. Only where it is no longer viable to transfer the land at nil cost will an adjustment be made. Our policy for mixed communities will be upheld and delivered in a realistic and viable way by these clauses. With these assurances, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tope]

I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I am still struggling to fully understand why it is focused solely on affordable housing. Of course, local authorities and developers can agree voluntarily to vary any of the other planning obligations. They can agree voluntarily to vary the affordable housing obligation. We know that such negotiations are going on all over the country and we hope, believe and expect that the vast majority will be varied and agreement reached voluntarily without having to use this appeal mechanism.

However, I take it from what the Minister has said that what gets appealed to PINS—the Planning Inspectorate—can be only the affordable aspect of it and not any of the other planning obligations. For instance, would it be possible for the Planning Inspectorate to agree or determine that some other aspect of the planning obligation could be varied or reduced in order to make the scheme viable, but to retain all or the greater part of the affordable housing obligation? It is that element that is troubling us and to which I suspect we may return at a later stage, but in the absence of any further illumination on the point—

Local Government: Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the distribution has been carried out, as it always is, against a formula which makes sure that there is fairness of distribution across the piece. As the noble Lord has just suggested, the highest loss of spending power is 8% and the lowest is much less than that. The department has taken a great deal of care to try to ensure that funds are well distributed across the country. Noble Lords will know that what we are dealing with here is, again, one of the difficulties of having a deficit left by the previous Government.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is at least as fair to look not only at the amount of funding the Government give each local authority but at the amount of funding each household gives to its local council? For instance, is she aware that in Liverpool the average annual council tax payment per dwelling is £961, whereas in Surrey it is £1,667, perhaps reflecting levels of deprivation? Is that fair?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, all I can say is that this is being done against the background of a formula which is pretty well understood. The average household spending power across the country is £2,000. The settlement is as fair as it can be in the financial circumstances.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My noble friend would know what they are if he had read the consultation document, which, knowing his experience, he will have done. The criteria put out to consultation are that local authorities will be designated if they should not have achieved the statutory requirement in 30% of applications and if they have had 20% of appeals overturned. I think that those are the figures in the consultation, and the consultation is where the criteria stand at the moment.

As regards the other information, the consultation has just closed. It will probably be quite difficult to get a full response by the time we get to Report, but we can certainly give noble Lords an indication of the responses to the consultation, which may be helpful. I am not going to guarantee that we can give the Government’s response by Report, because I think that it may require more consideration than the time available allows.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all who have taken part in this debate over the past hour and a half or so. I think it is customary, if undesirable, that the first debate on the first amendment in Committee tends to range just a little wider than the precise nature of the amendment. That has certainly been the case today and it has been none the worse for that.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, has introduced me to a new word: “vocality”. Like him, I do not know if such a word exists, but I remember looking up “localism” in the dictionary and finding that it was not there at all, so I now look forward to the “Vocality Bill” in the next Session.

I will try to deal simply with the amendments, particularly Amendment 1 in my name. It struck me that when the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, got up to speak, she referred to it as the amendment which sought to delay designation. I thought that was quite telling; I have to accept that that is certainly the effect, but it is not actually the intention. The intention is to find a better way of dealing with the problem that the Government perceive. Its intention is to try to help the Minister achieve the aspiration of never having to use this provision. The designation is not about seeking to delay—although that is the inevitable effect—it is about seeking a much better and more effective way to bring about the improvement that, in fairness, everybody wants, not just the Minister.

The Minister will have heard—and I am sure that she will take this away from this debate—considerable concern on all sides of the House about the clause as it presently stands and the support from all sides of the House for these amendments in order to bring about the objective to which I referred: namely, to find a better and more effective way of bringing about the improvements that we all seek. Obviously we are going to return to this clause on Report; I do not know what will happen then or what noble Lords will say. However, if it is to be supported by many sides of this House, we need to have some reassurances in the Bill from the Government along the lines of those that we are talking about today.

We have proposed criteria which I am told would currently catch only six local authorities; I would be very interested to know which six local authorities they are. I wonder whether those authorities themselves know that they are, in effect, on a danger list. I would like to know what size of authority they are, and to what extent and in what way they are apparently failing to meet the criteria. Is the failure on the quality, if that is the right expression, of their losing appeals—I think not, from what the noble Lord, Lord Best, has said—or is it simply on the time measure? All these things are of interest and relevance.

The criteria are not going to be in the Bill, and it is certain that at some stage during the lifetime of the Act, when this Bill is enacted, those criteria will change; they are bound to change. It is equally certain that the Planning Minister will change in the lifetime of the Act; it is even possible that the Government may change in the lifetime of the Act, and we may find a time when we have a less benevolent Planning Minister, a less benevolent Secretary of State and even possibly a less benevolent Government. Therefore, when we legislate here, we need the assurances that these amendments seek to achieve. They may or may not be the right way or the best way to achieve them, but I discern from this debate that noble Lords on all sides of the House are seeking those assurances before we pass this clause. I hope the Minister will take that concern back to her ministerial colleagues and see what the Government can bring forward to meet the concern that has been expressed. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Local Government: Provisional Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, in thanking the Minister for repeating the Statement in this House. Perhaps I should thank the noble Lord for enabling her to do so. This is the first time that I can recall this happening for many years, so we must thank the Opposition for this very welcome Christmas present.

I declare my interest as a councillor in the London borough of Sutton. I gather that I must now declare an additional interest as a member of its pension scheme which I joined at the age of 60, by which time I had more than 30 years’ council service which did not count towards the pension.

I also thank the Minister, and through her the Secretary of State, for the very welcome recognition of all that local government has achieved in reducing its budgets, and that it is, indeed, the most efficient and effective part of the public sector. In view of that, does the Minister agree that local authorities would be much better advised to learn from each others’ good practice than to take any notice at all of the Secretary of State’s 50 top tips from the TaxPayers’ Alliance?

Will the Minister say a little more about the new efficiency support grant and the criteria that local authorities will have to meet to qualify for money from that grant? What sort of money we are talking about?

Finally, can she give any indication of when the Secretary of State for Health will announce the public health funding, which is crucial to many local authorities in finally setting their budgets?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his contribution. I also thank him for acknowledging that we recognise that local government is efficient—at least most of it is, although some is not. As regards the 50 areas of good practice that my right honourable friend in the other place has produced, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, is correct: local authorities can learn from each others’ good practice, and there is good practice. There is good practice already across the piece where people are sharing services, chief executives and back office services and are procuring together. However, this applies to by no means all local authorities. This is where they need to learn from each other.

The Local Government Association has in its midst councils that are doing this and organisations within councils that are setting these good examples. I agree that local authorities can do good practice, but what they need to do is to bring it together and work together as much as they can.

The new efficiency support grant affects a very small number of councils above the 8.8%. I will let the noble Lord know the exact amount of it, but it is there to help them bring down their expenditure. Regarding public health announcements, we are still waiting for those but I cannot tell my noble friend when they are going to be announced.

National Planning Policy Statement

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the first priority in the National Planning Policy Framework is for brownfield land to be developed. Not all brownfield land is appropriate for housing; not all brownfield land is cheap for development and housing. Nevertheless, it remains a priority for local authorities to look at what brownfield land they have and develop it. However, brownfield land is primarily in city centres and, as noble Lords have often pointed out in this House, there are requirements for housing in rural areas as well.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, even when land is available and planning consent has been given, the houses still need to be built? Does she agree that lifting the cap on local authorities’ ability to borrow against their housing stock would go a very significant way towards enabling such houses to be built? Is she aware that London Councils has calculated that if that cap was lifted, 54,000 new homes could be provided in London alone? Are the Government going to act on this?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, it is a matter for the Chancellor whether the cap is lifted on local authority borrowing. It is not something that I can enter into at the moment. Local authorities know their limitations as far as prudential borrowing is concerned at present.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 22nd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank those noble Lords who have returned to the battle on this front, and I thank the noble Lord opposite for indicating where his party stands on this.

It might be worth reminding the House why we are in the position that we are in. We still sit on one of the largest deficits that this country has ever seen, and everything and every aspect is having to make a contribution to that. If we had not inherited that financial situation, we would not be here.

Let us be clear: the amendment is a tax rise on millions of single people, even in the reduced form that now comes before us. An amendment to give local authorities complete discretion over the level of discount was discussed for over an hour and a half on Report, but ultimately was not pressed. The Government were opposed to any change in the single-person discount then, and our position has not changed now. The single-person discount was part of the regional council tax system. It was part only of the system, not of anything to do with what was then council tax benefit. It is correct that it was not included or considered as part of the consultation on changes to support for council tax benefit. Noble Lords have said, “Well, that doesn’t matter; we can produce this in this House if we wish to”, and of course that is absolutely right—that can be done. In broad terms, though, the country has not been asked about this, although we have heard views about it. The noble Lord, Lord True, is correct in what he said; it goes back to the fact that this was not part of the original local government scheme.

The single-person discount exists because, by and large, single-adult households make less use of local authority services. I accept that there are some who do not—those who need adult support or social services support—but by and large single people, and I return to the fact that I am a beneficiary of this particular discount, do not make as much use of the facilities.

I do not want to repeat my arguments from Report but I want to be clear on the impact that the amendment would have. Changes to the single-person discount would be, as I have already said, a significant tax increase. Although the amendment clearly excepts pensioners, it would still hit other groups such as single parents and low-income people of working age. It is important, perhaps, to be aware that in October 2011—the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, came to this conclusion in a different way—more than three-quarters of the claimants of single-person discount were in dwellings that were banded A to C. Only one-third live in band A and only 10% of such claimants live in properties that are band E, so the effect would fall disproportionately on the people who lived in the lower-cost accommodation—and I suspect that most of those would be people who by definition would not be considered to be very well off. So the amendment would tax those whom noble Lords are seeking to help.

Noble Lords have previously commented on the amount of revenue that may be raised by reducing the rate of discount. I would like to sound a note of caution. People losing their single-person discount under this amendment may ultimately find themselves in greater need of help with their council tax. This would mean curtailing the impact of any additional resources, putting more people in need of council tax support and creating unintended pressures on councils. I am sure that the House would agree that it is not quite the outcome for this amendment that would be expected or hoped for.

Finally, without a direct correlation between distribution and financial need, it is not at all certain that the limit of new funds that the amendment would realise would indeed help those councils which the noble Lord is trying to support—another point which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made very strongly in his comments.

I have made it clear from the outset that the Government will not be supporting this tax rise on several million people. I tell the House that the Government will not be able to support this amendment.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am of course grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, particularly to those who have spoken, from all sides of the House, in support of the amendment. I pay particular tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Best, who has indeed fought this fight, not to make policy on the hoof, as the noble Lord, Lord True, suggested, but who has tried to bring it about for many, many months. The noble Lord, Lord Best, will understand if I say that his view that it is not worth entering the race if you are bound to lose is not shared by most Liberal Democrats. Similarly, we are grateful to him for his offer of a protest vote. That is something that we are also used to gratefully receiving; we sometimes put them to surprisingly good effect, as I hope that we will today.

The Minister has said, quite rightly, that if this amendment were passed, it would be a tax rise for some. It would. It would be a small tax rise where local authorities chose to vary the single-person discount, and not all of them will do that. It would be a small tax rise for those in receipt of the full 25% discount.

The cut in funding for council tax support being implemented in the way that most local authorities are having to do so is itself a tax rise for the people least well able to afford it. I do not pretend for one moment that the amendment is ideal, the perfect solution, the cure-all. Of course it is not. It is what the noble Lord, Lord Smith, quite rightly described as the least worst option. It is the least worst option that is before us tonight. We have heard speeches in support of it from all sides of the House tonight. I hope very much that we will see them translated into support.

I find it inexplicable—I have used that term before—that the Labour Party is choosing today to vote with the Conservative Government and against the amendment.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, as this is the first time that I am speaking on Report, I suppose that I, too, should declare my interest as a member of a London borough council and indeed as one who has had to deal, as leader of the council and leader of the opposition and before that, with budgets for probably even longer than the noble Lord, Lord Smith. He says that this year is probably the most difficult that he can remember; my only response to that is to say, “So far”. I am not sure that it is not going to get any better or easier.

I understand why the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has tabled this amendment; indeed, I am grateful to him for doing so. As he has rightly said, it follows on from the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in Committee to seek a postponement. We on these Benches did not support that amendment and still do not. I think that we would all agree by now, whatever our views about this legislation and the position that we are in, that it is in no one’s interest at this stage to postpone. I therefore hope and believe that when the Minister comes to reply, she will be able to give us the reassurances that have been requested that, late though the process is—we all acknowledge that it is later than originally intended and certainly later than any of us would wish—we are as confident as one ever can be that it will run as smoothly as it can. If she is not in a position to answer today the very detailed questions that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has put, I ask her to undertake to do so as soon as possible and, obviously, before Third Reading.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, following on from what my noble friend Lord Tope said, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has a happy style of producing a long list of questions that he peels off at a fast rate. It is not always possible to answer all of them at the same time. I readily agree with my noble friend Lord Tope that if we miss anything, we will write directly afterwards.

Like others, I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining his amendment. It is probably worth saying that as a former leader of a London local authority, I understand the complications of late publication of the draft local government finance report and the implications it has for the budget process. However, as has been said, there is late and there is late and, while this may be slightly later than some, it is not that far out of kilter with the other announcements. I recognise that delay in the publication of the draft local government finance report would make it more difficult for local government regardless of whether the rate retention scheme did or did not exist. The existing formula grant and the new arrangements for rates retention both rely on our being able to determine how much funding local authorities are entitled to. Indeed, I think that the noble Lord said that. In the old world, the one we are passing at the moment, that means how much formula grant authorities are to receive, and in the new world, how much revenue support grant they will get and how much funding through the rates retention scheme. Under either system, the answer to the question depends on changes to formula, and potentially on decisions that might be made in the Autumn Statement, so authorities face the same delays and the same problems.

I do not pretend for a moment that any of this is ideal, but delaying the implementation of the rates retention scheme, which potentially could be the outcome of Amendment 4, although I know that the noble Lord has said that he does not want to hold anything up, would not provide authorities with any greater certainty about the funding they would receive. Whichever way we do this, either in the old way or in the new way, they still need the information. Also, it will not assist them greatly as they plan their budgets for 2013-14. So while I understand the concerns of local government and of noble Lords, we would be kidding ourselves if we thought that there would be any difference if we were still in the situation of the formula grant. As I have said, the noble Lord has put a string of questions, some of which will be answered when other amendments are moved; they will pick up on some of the issues. Perhaps I may come back to those later.

While we are not able to confirm funding levels for individual local authorities until the start of the consultation on the provisional local government finance settlement, the Government have actually provided a lot of detail and supportive information. It has been pouring out all summer. Discussions have taken place with local government representatives, including the Local Government Association, and we will publish very shortly an additional exemplification on overall funding to enable individual local authorities to develop their modelling for the budget processes. In mid November we will also start a consultation on the data that the Government propose to use when calculating the settlement. This is an integral part of the settlement process that will throw light on some of the points raised by the noble Lord. We will also be publishing in draft all the key regulations that authorities will need to take into account later this month or early next month, and indeed I think that the noble Lord has probably seen those that have been done already.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, returned to the attack on council tax support. Perhaps I may duck that for the moment because it is going to be very relevant to the next part of the Bill. We will be able to discuss the issues at length when we reach that point.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked about a timetable for responding to the consultation. The Government’s response to the consultation exercise will form part of the local government finance report. It will set out how we will set up the rates retention scheme and the detail of elements, including the tariffs and top-ups. While what we are talking about will be later than is ideal, the system stacking up behind it is that local government will have practically all the information it is going to need, just not the dots and crosses, by the time the settlement is announced. As I say, I do not take any exception to the fact that it has been drawn to our attention that the settlement will be late. It will be.

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[Lord Tope]

My Lords, my noble friend referred several times to a review in 2013. While I am sure that he would like to have a review in 2013—would not we all?—I suspect that he might have meant 2016, which is the intention of the amendment. A review in 2013 is not a practical possibility, even if it were desirable.

My noble friend also said—and I rather agree with him—that the amendment from the Labour Benches is possibly the first firm election pledge that we have heard from the party opposite. I must say that I took it in a slightly different way. Although we will certainly have a new Government, of whatever composition, by 2016, this amendment seems to be an expression of doubt that the party opposite will be in a position to have a review even if it wants one. I am not quite as confident as my noble friend Lord True regarding the Labour Party’s intentions here.

My noble friends on this side have made the point that a review may very well be desirable, and of course there are a lot of uncertainties in introducing something as far-reaching as this—of course there must be, they are unavoidable. The review would also come in uncertain times, to say the least. However, I very much doubt whether we need to have in the Bill a binding commitment to a review in 2016. As my noble friend said, it would introduce yet another uncertainty. People would say, “The review is going to come. What will it say? Shall we try and hang on for another year or two?”. A review may very well be desirable at some point. It may happen in 2016, before that or afterwards. If the Government of the day, whoever they are, were able to carry out a review at such a time, in such circumstances and with such terms of reference as they chose, I would caution against having it as a legislative requirement in an Act of Parliament, three years in advance.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Tope for his final comments. We do not believe that a set review, with a timetable in the Bill, is the right way to go about this. We all accept that there will be huge volatility in the system from now on, but I have to say that there would have been huge volatility whatever happened, because the whole economic situation is such that it is unavoidable that local government could escape any changes at all. Indeed, I well recall under Labour Governments and indeed under my own Government being outraged and upset as money swam away from us to other parts of the country. Therefore, the idea of local government money being different in different areas and changing from time to time is not new.

We do not think that the proposal to set the time for a review is sensible. As my noble friend Lord True said, this is something that will affect each local authority. They will have access, as they always have had, to the Government to make representations either individually or on behalf of themselves and others to discuss their needs and resources under the retention scheme. If they are significantly out of kilter, then of course the Government will listen to that, but I do not think that an independent review of the whole system is really going to achieve that. We will see how this goes and listen as and when any local authority wants to talk to us about it.

In addition, if we constantly—and even three years is pretty constant in terms of the changes being made—review the funding arrangements within the rates retention system, looking at tariffs, top-ups, levies and baseline funding, we will completely undermine one of the principles of the scheme, which is that local authorities should invest and benefit from growth. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, said that the scheme will differ across the country and that some places will find it easier than others but, generally speaking, I do not think that a review in three years’ time is going to help us with that. For this growth to work at all, we have to understand that the rewards from investment need time to take effect and a longer-term view will be necessary for the investments to be worth while. By resetting the system too often, you simply move away from that situation.

The Government are satisfied that they are setting out the scheme until 2020—that is, with a reset after seven years. That will enable local authorities to understand what they are able to keep and the proceeds that they are going to be able to initiate to stir up and improve local businesses and to get the economy flowing in their area. I hope the House will understand that we do not think it is right to set a formal time limit for reviewing the system, but clearly with a new system of any sort the Government are not simply going to say, “Well, there you are. Thanks, that’s it. We have no more interest in this”. That is clearly not the situation, and certainly we will always be open to having discussions as the scheme develops. With that, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Tope]

My Lords, that intervention reminds me that almost exactly a year ago we had quite a long debate in your Lordships’ House about what localism is. My noble friend Lord Greaves and I tried to set down, at some length, what we think localism means and it rapidly became clear that localism means what you want it to mean. In the ensuing 12 months, it has become increasingly clear that localism means what you want it to mean. Increasing pronouncements from central government—from my Government—demonstrate that point.

I am sure that there is no one involved with this Bill and no one in local government who does not agree with the view expressed in this amendment. In that, I include the Minister, who will speak for herself. I am sure she cannot say that but I am equally sure that she agrees with the views expressed. I even dare to go so far as to say that I suspect that the Secretary of State would agree with the view expressed. However, we all have to recognise the reality that no Minister in any Government will accept this amendment. The Treasury would simply never let them. That is a hard reality of life and one that I personally regret very much. Before today, the Minister has gone a considerable way, and I hope she will in a few minutes’ time, when she replies, make it very clear to us that the genuine intention of the Government is that it should not and will not go below 50%. I was not at the Local Government Association conference—I am one of the few people here who is not a vice-president—but I read that the Secretary of State, Mr Pickles, was urging delegates there to continue campaigning for a higher share than 50%. Perhaps that was just a populist appeal at the time but I like to think that that was the sentiment.

I think we all share the view expressed in the amendment. If we are honest, I think most of us realistically understand that no government Minister, of whatever party or coalition, would be able to accept that amendment. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for moving the amendment and allowing us to press the point even further. I think the point is well and truly made and accepted. When the time comes, I hope that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends behind me for their contributions. In the middle of the previous amendment, I asked the noble Lord whether he was going to move this one but I am very happy, now that he has done so, to reiterate that the Government’s intention is to increase the 50% share of local authorities as soon as there is economic acceptance that we can do so.

As other noble Lords have said, I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, who was in government and who knows all about the difficulties, would believe at this stage of the Bill that we would be able to restrict the future ability of a Government if the situation ever arose—I hope that it never will and that things will get better rather than worse. I do not think that we could tie the hands of future Governments or of this Government with any statement that the share would never go up. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that. I reiterate that, as and when we get to a situation in which we can see the economy going in the right direction, further consideration might be given to that. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I will say briefly that the mishap to which I referred earlier has occurred again with these amendments. My name should have been on the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. It did not happen, but my support is there. Again, I will not repeat what he said. He made the case very well, and we are all keen to hear what the Minister has to say in response. My noble friend Lord Jenkin again confessed to being the man who nationalised the business rate. I think that we have all long since forgiven him for the errors and misdeeds of his youth. He has more than compensated for them in the years since.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I will start with Amendments 73, 79 and 81. I realise that that may seem slightly perverse given how they are laid out in the list, but it makes reasonable sense. Amendment 73 requires the publication of a raft of information that is already published by my department and is part of statistical releases that are all published as well—and will be in future. To say explicitly in the Bill that they must be published and laid out would be a quite unnecessary duplication. All the information will be set out in each year’s local government finance report, and so will be available to all those who want it.

Amendments 79 and 81 seek to ensure that needs are explicitly taken into account after the system is up and running, by providing for authorities to be able to make representations calling for a reset, and for the Secretary of State to make a reassessment of the system every three years. We discussed much of that and I will not again go through the arguments I made. I just need to say that to enable an effective incentive for economic growth, we need to give local authorities certainty about the length of time they will keep the rewards from generating local economic growth. That is the answer I gave earlier and that is what I say again. Frequent resets on the system would undermine this, to the detriment of the national economy and of local authorities. I hope that in due course noble Lords will not press those amendments.

Amendment 18 seeks to ensure that the local government finance report must be laid before the other place by 30 November each year. The amendment is both impractical and unhelpful. When discussing the previous group of amendments, I explained that the local government finance report cannot be laid this year until after the Autumn Statement. The Chancellor recently announced that this would take place on 5 December. I also recognise the complications of this for local government budget setting, regardless of whether the rate retention scheme is introduced. I will not go back over the arguments presented to the House a moment ago, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, will withdraw Amendment 18 on the basis that we have already discussed the issue.

Amendments 57 and 58 were tabled by my noble friend Lord Jenkin, as well as by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Beecham—and by my noble friend Lord Tope in absentia. They seek to reverse the changes made in the other place to the way in which the Government will distribute surplus levy income. I sympathise with the intentions of the noble Lords who tabled the amendments. The Government’s intentions were very similar when we introduced the Bill in the other place at the beginning of the year. However, after further consideration we recognised that specifying the basis for distributing the surplus levy in the local government finance report, as opposed to in regulations, was not advantageous for local government. Therefore, in responding to the amendments, I shall go through in some detail the advantages of the Government’s approach. I hope that my explanation will address the concerns of noble Lords and underline why I will not be able to support their proposed approach.

I remind the House that the levy on disproportionate gain is a key part of the business rates retention scheme, the safety net in particular. The money collected will be used for one purpose only: to fund safety net payments to local authorities that see significant reductions in their retained business rates incomes. The Government have always made it clear that, if any levy collected is not required to fund the safety net, it will be completely redistributed to local government. We are committed to this principle and we will not hold on to larger and larger surpluses.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Thursday 5th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the needs assessment will be the same as the assessments for the baseline that were made initially. As I understand it, you would have to revaluate against that baseline. Any adjustments needed to that as a result of the revaluation would be made on the financial basis that there is no change to the amount a local authority is receiving unless there has been some change in the baseline or in the ingredients of the baseline. I think that is correct as to how the assessment will be made and, again, I will write if it is not.

[Lord Tope]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that explanation and to all noble Lords who took part in this debate, which raised some interesting and useful points. We will read it carefully in Hansard and I am quite certain the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will read it with even more care and interest. I do not speak for what he may intend to do when he has done so, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Local Authorities (Conduct of Referendums) (England) Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 6th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I entirely accept that. I am quite sure that in her distinguished career, the noble Baroness as a county councillor—indeed, chairman of the education committee—must on many occasions have had to make such unpopular arguments. I understand that and I am sure that the noble Baroness does as well.

I do not want to take too long or carry on being quite so provocative. However, we come now to the question of why we should have the referenda. First, it was stated in the Conservative Party manifesto, which was at the time of no great excitement to me, but it was then agreed in the coalition agreement—my party has agreed to the commitment that there will be referendums in the originally 12 and now 11 cities. That is an election commitment. It is a governmental commitment. We can all argue what the public do or do not expect. They may not expect political parties to carry out their commitments, but they ought to be able to expect political parties to carry out their commitments. Rightly or wrongly there was a commitment to hold these referendums. It is right that the Government should now be doing that, whatever we may individually hope will be the result of those referendums.

We had the question again about legislation. The Localism Act did not expressly state that these referendums would take place, but it certainly gave the power for them to take place. It was very well known, not least because the coalition agreement referred to it, that this was going to happen. The fact that people are only now in February preparing for a referendum that will probably take place on 3 May is hardly surprising, given all the commitments and all the legislation, including the passing of the Localism Act.

Therefore, I think that the Government are right to be holding these referendums in accordance with the commitments given. Those of us who hope for a no vote should have a lot more confidence in our ability to convince voters. Above all, we ought to trust the people to decide on this. It will decide the issue one way or the other for the foreseeable future. We can then get on with debating an issue that I think is far more important, which is the powers that our local government has—whoever is running it and whatever governance system they choose to have—to get on and revitalise not only our cities but the whole of the rest of local government in this country.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, the passion at the end was very good. It has been a low-key debate apart from that. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington—if I may hesitantly say so—has quite a short memory, particularly in relation to putting legislation in place before it has been passed. I stood where the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is on more times than I care to recall, telling the then Government that they were introducing and had almost put into effect legislation before it had been passed. Therefore, I do not accept that challenge to what we are doing here, but I do think the noble Baroness must not forget that that was a situation with practically all the legislation that the previous Government put in place. We must not forget that.

The grant to each local authority is done against a formula—as indeed the previous Government did. We have argued for years over which way the formula was going, one way or the other. People have short memories. We must just all try to remember where we came from.

The noble Lord, Lord Tope, drew attention to the fact that the coalition Government’s programme made it clear that we are committed to creating directly elected mayors. That commitment was carried out in the Localism Act and was a commitment to having a referendum in 12 cities. Those cities are now 11 because Leicester took the decision to move to a mayor under the original provisions in the Local Government Act 2000. The Government believe that there is good evidence that a powerful, dynamic and directly elected mayor can provide strong, visible leadership, increase accountability for local decisions, deliver local economic growth—that is really important—and bring greater prosperity to their city. However, we believe that it is up to the electorates in these cities to decide in a referendum whether they believe that the mayoral model is one that they would wish to embrace. Through directing that referendums take place, we are ensuring that the people have the opportunity to address the question for themselves.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said that the question that was going to be asked was skewed. I remind him that it is set by the independent Electoral Commission and not by the Government.

National Planning Policy Framework

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the Government intend to see protection for all cultural interests but, as I have explained to the noble Baroness, under the draft national planning policy framework, cultural interests have been included under community facilities, rather than under a specific heading of “cultural institutions”. If that needs reinterpreting, it will come about as a result of the consultation on the national policy planning framework that has taken place over the past three months.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s statement in recognition of the important role that culture and cultural services play in the nation’s quality of life and well-being. Can she tell us when we will see the national planning policy framework in its final form so that we may judge the Government’s commitment to that?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the Government are committed to producing the final version by the end of March. It is very much hoped that it will be ready before then. I am sure that the noble Lord will take a lively interest in it when it is.

Population: United Kingdom

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, can the Minister say whether the figure she gave us just now includes land for which development consent has been given but never implemented? Does she agree that if priority is given to the implementation of such consent to the use of brownfield sites, as she has just said, and to the use of other land which none of us would think has any environmental value, there really is no need for the countryside to feel further threatened?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I cannot say whether what I have said includes such land. With regard to the development of land, we have always protected green belt and looked to see that greenfield land is not used before brownfield land is developed. I hope that that answers my noble friend’s question.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Greaves in all that he has said. He has made a very persuasive case, and I would summarise it in words that we hear so often from the Dispatch Box: “My Lords, these provisions are not necessary”. As my noble friend has said, local authorities are already able to hold referendums if they so choose. The provisions elsewhere in this Bill will widen that possibility—that scope—in a number of ways.

I believe that there are better ways of testing public opinion fairly than using the very suspect means of a referendum. Perhaps in the current financial climate, even more persuasive is the fact that they are very expensive to hold. They are misleading to members of the public, who will not unnaturally think that if the local authority has gone to all the trouble of establishing a referendum using the full electoral process, then they will actually implement whatever the result is. Yet the provisions here are not binding; a local authority, if it is so minded—and brave enough—may well then decide not to abide by the outcome of the result of the referendum.

I will end where I began, in the words that I know the Minister believes to be most persuasive, because they are the words that she and her colleagues use so often to the rest of us when we are moving amendments: “My Lords, these provisions are simply not necessary”.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, before we go any further it may be in the interests of the House if I indicate probably what is now the worst kept secret—that the Government will be minded to accept these amendments, and there may be further debate.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I am giving prezzies all through this part of the Bill. I cannot believe it. It seems an unusual situation, which is why I am commenting. In Committee, my noble friends Lord Tope and Lord Palmer of Childs Hill tabled amendments aimed at removing any delay between the time a local authority resolves to change its governance arrangements and the implementation of that change. During the debate, I stated that I had some sympathy with the points raised by noble Lords, particularly about the time that has to elapse before changes in governance arrangements can be implemented.

Having taken this matter further, I am happy to tell noble Lords that Amendments 152 to 154 build on their amendments to deliver the desired effect. In essence, these amendments provide that, after a passing of a resolution to change governance arrangements, a local authority can make that change, in the case of moving to the mayoral model, three days after the election of the first mayor; in the case of moving from the mayoral model, three days after the end of the term of office of the serving mayor; and, in all other circumstances, including moving to the committee system, at the first annual meeting after the resolution or such other later annual meeting specified by the local authority itself in its resolution to change governance arrangements. Local authorities therefore will be able to resolve at any time to change their governance arrangements and implement those changes without any unnecessary delay and at a time that best suits their circumstances.

In Committee, there were clearly concerns that there was a hiatus between a proposal put forward for new governance and its being able to be implemented. It seemed quite a long time, so we have taken account of that and I hope the amendments make it clear that there need not be any delay. I beg to move.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for expressing her sympathy for what we were saying so well tonight. We of course welcome these amendments. I had the distinct impression that because of this not being perhaps a major part of the Bill, the Government had not properly taken account of the effect that if those councils which wished to change their governance arrangements now, as soon as they are able to under this Bill, had whole council elections, as we have in London and a number of other parts of the country, they would be waiting until after 2014 to be able to make the changes. Those councils which had whole-council elections this year would have to wait another four years to do it. That made no sense so I am pleased that the Minister recognised that and I welcome these amendments.

The amendments will be particularly welcome in a number of councils—certainly ones in London that I know of—which have, in effect, already changed their governance arrangements but hold meetings of the executive after the committee meetings. The meeting of the executive lasts for five minutes and agrees with every decision just taken by the committee. That is the procedure they use in order to get around the system as it is at the moment. It would clearly be even more of a nonsense if that sort of thing were to carry on for another two or three years. I welcome these amendments very much and I know that they will be welcomed in a number of councils, including my own, which are intending to make these changes as soon as the law permits.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tope]

I would be enormously grateful if the Minister could move the amendment that we have just welcomed, but my understanding is that she has withdrawn it.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thought that I had said, “I beg to move”.

Local Government Finance

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I think I am going to direct the noble Lord to the consultation, because this is one of the areas where we want to talk to local authorities to understand the nature and impact of that issue. At the moment, I do not think I can give a substantive answer, but it will be in an authority that has access to far more business rates than perhaps other local authorities comparably.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement in this House, and also for the plain English guide being put in the House of Lords Library, which I am sure will sell like hot cakes before the summer holidays. I also congratulate the Minister on resisting the temptation to start answering the questions posed in the consultation document before that document has actually been seen by those being consulted.

I warmly welcome the commitment of the coalition Government to start delivering on a promise that I think has been made by every opposition party since the Conservative Government first nationalised business rates over 20 years ago. It is understandable that local authorities will want to look at the detail and consider particularly the proposed equalisation scheme. Does the Minister agree that, when they have done so, this proposal is likely to receive a warm welcome throughout the country by councils under any political control? Does she agree that probably the repatriation of business rates is arguably the best boost to business regeneration that this Government—certainly her department—can provide? Finally, will she confirm that the setting of the tax rate will continue to be done centrally in line with the retail prices index; and can she say whether, at any stage in the future, the Government propose to introduce an element of localisation into the setting of the tax rate?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Tope for his kindly and warm welcome for this consultation document. I agree with him that local government will be content with this proposal; whether it is content with all the details will come out in the consultation. As long as I have been involved in local government, and since the rate began to be set centrally, local government has looked to having the business rate repatriated—in that it does not go out and come back in again but is contained within local authorities. The repatriation of the business rate is a good thing. The setting of the rate for the grant will continue to be set centrally, for the time being at least. As far as I know at the moment, that will continue to be the situation.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, briefly, I support my noble friend Lord Greaves. He certainly has more experience of rural areas than I do, but I speak from the perspective of what he referred to as a “compact urban area” or, more accurately, a suburban area: a fairly small—in terms of area—London borough. We have six local committees on the council as a whole. There are 43 Liberal Democrat councillors and only 11 Conservative councillors. However, because of the political demography, one of those six local committees is still controlled by a Conservative majority.

Each of those local committees has limited executive powers, which we hope will be extended further, and each operates in quite different ways, partly because of the councillors on them and the way in which they choose to react, and partly, and more particularly, because of the nature of the areas that they represent. All of the councillors for those areas are members of those local committees, to a varying extent, and the local residents in those areas come to those meetings certainly to a far greater extent than they attend meetings of our executive. They take part in those committees and, to varying extents, they feel that they are part of the deliberations.

As a council we have not felt it necessary to prescribe in great detail what each of those local committees shall, or shall not, do or how they will, or will not, behave. They behave sensibly, even the one run by the Conservatives behaves moderately sensibly. We demonstrate, in a very obvious way, the difference between a Conservative-run committee and a Liberal Democrat-run committee. That is what democracy is about; it is what we ought to be doing. As a council, we have not felt the need to prescribe it, nor have we ever thought that we should have prescribed it. I commend to the Government the fact that they too should trust local authorities in this case, as we trust local committees.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, on this debate, I hear what noble Lords say. I shall reflect carefully on what has been said and I shall ask noble Lords to withdraw their amendments for the time being.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

I thank the noble Lord for that. Unless I have not done something that I ought to have done, I ask that the amendments that I have listed be accepted and that the noble Lord withdraw Amendment 56 for the moment.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I guess that I am grateful to some extent for the Minister’s explanation, but I am not sure that her telling me that the provision is taken from a previous Act, which I already knew, necessarily explains more fully the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has referred to. I do not think that we will get very much further with this matter today, but we will need to look at it again.

We have a raft of amendments which the Government are supporting. They are in various different groups, which I think the Minister is struggling with—certainly, I am; I admit to that. I think that we are all struggling with it; we were all dealing with it in the middle of the night last night trying to understand it. When the Bill is eventually reprinted on Report, we will inevitably have to look at what is left in it and at what some of the consequences may be. We will undoubtedly return to it if necessary. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 56.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I hope that we might be able to get back on track again without me having to swing round to make sure that I have done all the right things. We are happy to accept Amendment 57; I made clear my support for that previously in Committee. We recognise that there is great concern about the combination of the mayor and chief executive under the shadow arrangements and are content to support the amendment.

We are not quite so happy with Amendment 58 and I am going to reject it—I cannot see why, but I am. By the time we get round to the next stage I will have recovered my composure. I think that I was so taken by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, being so nice about me that I completely got underneath this. No doubt he will return to the issue at the next stage if he feels it necessary. In the mean time, I am not going to accept that amendment but have spoken to all the others.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I am not sure that I can accept her reasoning for rejecting Amendment 58, which is also in my name—not least because I have been nice to her and about her for at least 21 years; she should be very well used to it by now. That is not a reason for being unable to give the reasons for rejecting the amendment. However, as I am moving Amendment 57 in this group, I beg leave to withdraw that amendment. No, I am sorry. I am so unused to this. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, that was a short debate and I can probably give a reasonably short answer. We have some sympathy with the points that have been raised, particularly about the time that has to elapse before the changes can be implemented. I will not accept the amendment today but I am happy to take it away and consider whether those provisions are as good as they can be.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I think I am grateful for that reply, which I think was an encouraging one. I spent 13 years as leader of a council under a committee system. I stood down on the day that we adopted the executive/scrutiny split—not for that reason, but it was a convenient time to do so—and spent the subsequent 12 years as a member of the executive, so I have experience of both.

I am sorry that I led us into a debate on what the best system is. It was probably inevitable that we would have a debate on what the best system is and what our personal experiences are, but the noble Lord, Lord True, was absolutely right to remind us that that is not our business to debate today. Having rightly left local authorities to determine for themselves what system they want, the only decision for us on these amendments today is the date on which that can be implemented. That is the sole purpose of my amendments, whether they are perfectly drafted—as I am sure they must be—or whether there is something more or different that needs to be done.

I hope very much that the Minister can be as clear as possible that when we come back on Report we will have amendments, moved in whoever’s name, that will make absolutely clear that there is no need and that it makes no sense for local authorities which have whole-council elections to wait three or four years before implementing the changes that we say they should have the right to do. In hopeful anticipation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Localism Bill: Shadow Mayors

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

There are powers in the Local Government Act 2000 for referendums to be held in any local authority to see whether local people want a mayor. However, we believe that these 11 cities—there are now 11; there were 12—are so important and that major cities across the world benefit so much from having a mayor that this is something that we ought to do here. Of course, it is only a direction to have a referendum. It is then up to the local people democratically to decide whether they wish to go down that path.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, may I congratulate the Minister for not only listening to the views from all sides of this House and outside but for having the courage and good sense to act upon them in getting rid of shadow mayors? If that is described as a U-turn, I join the noble Lord in welcoming a Government who have the good sense to listen to views expressed by others. Does the Minister also share the view of her Secretary of State, expressed in the August 2010 issue of Total Politics, that local authorities should be able to have whatever governance arrangements they wish, provided they are efficient, transparent and accountable?

[Baroness Hanham]

All sorts of governance arrangements are now available to local authorities. They can decide whether they have a mayor and a cabinet, a leader and cabinet, or a leader. Now, once the Localism Bill becomes an Act, they will be able to go back to the committee system that was so abruptly removed from their power by the previous Government. Yes, it is right that local government should be able to decide how it best runs its affairs, but the local electorate should have a hand in helping it decide that.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 20th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 7, 8 and 9. In common with the rest of local government, for many years we have pressed to have a general power of competence. I should make clear at the start that we are wholeheartedly in support of this, although I increasingly wonder exactly how much extra difference it will make. I nevertheless welcome it without reservation.

I have no intention of pressing these probing amendments to the vote but want to give the Government an opportunity to place on record a little more clearly the limitations being imposed on that general power; certainly I am not clear on them. Amendments 6 and 9 probe the nature of overlap and the boundaries imposed on the general power by pre-commencement and post-commencement limitations and, in particular, the intentions of the Government in relation to post-commencement limitations. Amendment 8 probes why local authorities should not be able to change their governance arrangements at least to a degree under the general power. These are questions to which we would really like some answers. If Parliament graciously is granting the general power, the fewer limitations the better. We wonder, as we will in later stages of the Bill, why it is necessary to say what local authorities may or may not do once they have that general power. With that, I look forward to hearing the clarification and expansion from the Minister, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question. The general power is drafted on the basis that local authorities will be able to do anything that an individual might do, other than that which is specifically prohibited. In practice, this means that local authorities will be required to act in accordance with statutory limitations or restrictions. This is not surprising as we would not want local authorities to be completely outside the law.

Clause 2(2) sets out that limitations in legislation apply to the general power but draws a distinction between pre- and post-commencement limitations. Restrictions in post-commencement legislation will apply to the general power only where the drafting of the new legislation is clear that this is the policy intention. Amendment 6 would remove the requirement that local authorities exercising the new power act in accordance with any restrictions. Amendment 9 removes the definitions of post- and pre-commencement limitation from the clause.

Some restrictions on the activities of local authorities are obviously needed—for instance, a council should not have free rein to override the rights of others and these should be set out in the clearest terms—to ensure clarity for local authorities and avoid the uncertainty that has led to legal challenges to local authority powers in the past. That is what these subsections seek to achieve. We cannot require pre-existing limitations to expressly refer to the general power but, where these are found unnecessarily to restrict the general power, they can of course be removed following consultation. Amendment 7 would allow local authorities to decide their own governance arrangements and Amendment 8 will allow local authorities to use the general power to further contract out its functions.

We believe that it would be inappropriate that local authorities should be entirely free to change their governance arrangements. The Government set the overall governing structures of local authorities while still providing them with sufficient flexibility to decide on the most appropriate arrangement for their individual circumstances. This ensures democratic accountability and that transparent and workable arrangements are put in place. Arrangements for discharge of functions remain subject to existing legislation. Contracting out of functions will continue to be permitted in specific cases. The noble Lord asked specifically why local government should not be able just to make its own decisions about its governance. The answer is that the Government are right to be able to set the overall governing structures of each local authority.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, contracting out is clearly one of the ways in which a local authority can carry out its services but it will still be subject to the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. Those provisions are not being repealed, so they will continue to be part of the legislative control that will be maintained on the general power.

[Lord Tope]

I am grateful to the Minister for her reply, which I will read with great interest tomorrow. I am still a little puzzled about the restrictions on the governance, to which we will come at a later stage. If I understood the Minister correctly, she said that the Government felt that it was right to have some restrictions on what local authorities could do in their governance arrangements. I wish that I had the quote with me but I recall that, in the August edition of Total Politics, the Secretary of State said that he did not care what system of governance local councils have. He even said that they could have a choral system and sing sea shanties for all he cared, provided only that the system of government was efficient, transparent and accountable—three criteria to which every one of us would agree. Therefore, I am still a little puzzled as to why the Government feel that it is necessary to restrict a general power of competence in this area. Nevertheless, we will no doubt get to this in the later stages of this Bill. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 6.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the answer to that will have to come in a note, I am afraid, because I am not clear about the relationship between the two. I will make sure that my noble friend has a reply to her questions so that she may return to the point on Report if she so wishes.

With regard to the provision of leisure services, which was the specific area raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, those services are subject to separate powers to charge, so they are unaffected by the general power by virtue of Clause 3(2)(c). In other words, these services once again come under previous legislation and therefore cannot be subject to this legislation. I think that this is going to be the answer that we will give to a number of these issues, where the general power of competence is restricted by previous legislation which is not being amended or annulled. I hope that that answers the question.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her answer, but I am bound to say that I am not any wiser than before. I have used leisure services as an example since it happens to be one for which I am responsible, but perhaps it was the wrong example, which is one of the troubles with using examples. Frankly, I am no clearer about the meaning of this provision and what restrictions it would bring about.

I can see from my raised position that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, wishes to speak.

[Lord Tope]

Indeed, I am happy to offer the Minister the example of a meals on wheels service, which has just come to mind as possibly a more appropriate example. I would be grateful if she could elucidate a little more because I see that I am not the only noble Lord in the Committee who has failed wholly to understand it. If it is not possible for her to do so today, I am sure that she will write to us, but if she is able to be a little clearer about what is covered rather than what is not covered by this provision, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I will try to be a little more helpful. Part of the answer is that the Government believe that a local authority service should not make a surplus year on year. I think that that was one of the points raised earlier. By providing a power to charge for discretionary services, the Government’s aim is to encourage authorities to provide the sort of services that they would otherwise decide not to provide or improve at all because they cannot justify or afford providing them for free or improving them. I do not think that that actually answers the question, so I am going to write to the noble Lord before the next stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hanham]

The existing situation is that current legislation limits what can be done, and this continues to limit it. Under the general power, if it is not restricted by current legislation, then it is permissive.

[Lord Tope]

I am grateful to the Minister for her offer to write, which it is hoped will clarify the situation. I might suggest that if we are all struggling a bit with what is in the Bill, perhaps the drafting is not as clear as it should be, and that is something on which we shall all have to reflect. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Big Society: Church of England

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Thursday 12th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I understand fully the interest of the noble Baroness opposite. She has been working in this field for a long time. My response is that I would not be surprised. The amount of voluntary work and caring in this country is enormous. We all recognise that many people are looking after members of their family full time, largely unpaid and unrecognised. The first thing we have got to do is recognise what they do, and I would not underestimate the value of their contribution. What the noble Baroness says is correct.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, first, I declare an interest as an executive councillor in the London Borough of Sutton, which is one of the Government’s three vanguard communities for the big society. What steps are the Government taking to remove regulatory burdens at both national and EU level to enable local authorities to provide practical support in facilitating faith-based and other community organisations to deliver services and grow community spirit?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, unless there are regulations standing in the way of that, we would want to look at it very carefully and see what is stopping that work. I am not aware of either the Church of England or any other faith community being debarred from helping people in the work that they need to do. I pay tribute to the work of those organisations and their presence in the community, and express the appreciation of the people who rely upon them.

Local Authorities: Redundancies

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, the Minister said in answer to the Question that it was for local authorities to make their own decisions on spending. Given that there is no additional public expenditure involved in this, will she say why the Government will not allow local authorities to decide for themselves how they will meet these redundancy costs?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, they can make their own decisions about it. All that the Government are doing at the moment is providing some flexible resources with the £300 million capitalisation for those that are finding it particularly difficult. They will have to implement that capitalisation against criteria, and if they do not meet those criteria they will not be given permission to do so.

Allotments

Debate between Lord Tope and Baroness Hanham

Monday 18th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to what I said originally. The support for initiatives such as this comes from local government, which will make its own decisions about it. The sort of initiatives to which she refers are extremely valuable; they build into future generations a love of the land, the love of gardening and an appreciation of where our food comes from. Quite a lot of children just think that it comes out of the shop.

[Lord Tope]

Is the Minister aware that allotment associations are currently ineligible to apply for funding from landfill tax credits on the grounds that allotment sites are not technically open to the general public? Does she agree that access to such funding could enable allotment associations to bring a lot more unusable plots back into use? If she does agree, what will she do about it?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that anything that encourages people to have allotments and take up gardening is to be welcomed. I am not aware of the funding of which he speaks and will make inquiries and respond to him in due course.