Baroness Hanham
Main Page: Baroness Hanham (Conservative - Life peer)Local Government Finance Bill
Baroness Hanham Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Hanham
“( ) paragraph 9A (regulations about payments by billing authorities to major precepting authorities out of deductions from central share payments);”
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I know that we have just returned from rather a long recess, but may I remind noble Lords that, in order to enable the Minister to move her amendments, it may be helpful to leave the Chamber rather quietly?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, the amendments in this group concern the funding of business rate relief in enterprise zones. Enterprise zones will contribute to the growth of the local and national economy through a range of measures and financial incentives. One of those incentives is a discount on business rates. The discount will apply for five years and be available up to the state aid de minimis level for businesses that move into an enterprise zone before April 2015. The Government have committed fully to fund these business rate discounts and the amendments in this group will ensure that, through regulations, we are able to deliver on that commitment.
Amendment 25 will give the Secretary of State powers to provide for the deduction of a particular amount from the central share, including by reference to amounts of rate relief awarded. This will allow billing authorities to deduct the cost of discounts in enterprise zones from their central share payments to the Secretary of State, thereby compensating them for the cost of those discounts. As this will reduce the revenue received by the Government, Amendment 25 also provides that the regulations will require the consent of the Treasury. Amendment 36 will then allow us to ensure that the compensation for the cost of the enterprise zone discounts is shared as appropriate between the billing authority and the major precepting authorities. It does this by allowing us, in regulations, to require the billing authority to make payments to major precepting authorities so that, where appropriate, those precepting authorities are also compensated for their share of the cost of the discount.
The remaining amendments in this group are consequential on these amendments and, with this explanation, I hope noble Lords will be prepared to accept them.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation of this group of amendments. I will just say at the start that we are of course faced on Report with quite a lot of government amendments—I think more than 50 to date—and not all of those flow directly from our Committee deliberations. We have absolutely no problem with the Bill being in the best shape it can be by the time it leaves your Lordships’ House but, following our discussions today and the further reflection we can have before Third Reading, we reserve the right to pick up further issues if we have missed them in the deliberations to date. I have no problem with the particular thrust of these amendments but would just like clarification on one point. The noble Baroness referred to the off-sets in relation to enterprise zones, which is clearly sensible, and the off-sets in relation to discretionary rate relief. Do these provisions potentially cover off-set in any other circumstance?
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I do not want to start Committee proceedings but do they not also cover, as the noble Baroness has said, discretionary rate relief?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, these amendments deal with everything to do with the rate discount and how it is handled in enterprise zones. The discretionary relief comes into that as well.
Lord Tope
My Lords, as this is the first time that I am speaking on Report, I suppose that I, too, should declare my interest as a member of a London borough council and indeed as one who has had to deal, as leader of the council and leader of the opposition and before that, with budgets for probably even longer than the noble Lord, Lord Smith. He says that this year is probably the most difficult that he can remember; my only response to that is to say, “So far”. I am not sure that it is not going to get any better or easier.
I understand why the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has tabled this amendment; indeed, I am grateful to him for doing so. As he has rightly said, it follows on from the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in Committee to seek a postponement. We on these Benches did not support that amendment and still do not. I think that we would all agree by now, whatever our views about this legislation and the position that we are in, that it is in no one’s interest at this stage to postpone. I therefore hope and believe that when the Minister comes to reply, she will be able to give us the reassurances that have been requested that, late though the process is—we all acknowledge that it is later than originally intended and certainly later than any of us would wish—we are as confident as one ever can be that it will run as smoothly as it can. If she is not in a position to answer today the very detailed questions that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has put, I ask her to undertake to do so as soon as possible and, obviously, before Third Reading.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, following on from what my noble friend Lord Tope said, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has a happy style of producing a long list of questions that he peels off at a fast rate. It is not always possible to answer all of them at the same time. I readily agree with my noble friend Lord Tope that if we miss anything, we will write directly afterwards.
Like others, I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining his amendment. It is probably worth saying that as a former leader of a London local authority, I understand the complications of late publication of the draft local government finance report and the implications it has for the budget process. However, as has been said, there is late and there is late and, while this may be slightly later than some, it is not that far out of kilter with the other announcements. I recognise that delay in the publication of the draft local government finance report would make it more difficult for local government regardless of whether the rate retention scheme did or did not exist. The existing formula grant and the new arrangements for rates retention both rely on our being able to determine how much funding local authorities are entitled to. Indeed, I think that the noble Lord said that. In the old world, the one we are passing at the moment, that means how much formula grant authorities are to receive, and in the new world, how much revenue support grant they will get and how much funding through the rates retention scheme. Under either system, the answer to the question depends on changes to formula, and potentially on decisions that might be made in the Autumn Statement, so authorities face the same delays and the same problems.
I do not pretend for a moment that any of this is ideal, but delaying the implementation of the rates retention scheme, which potentially could be the outcome of Amendment 4, although I know that the noble Lord has said that he does not want to hold anything up, would not provide authorities with any greater certainty about the funding they would receive. Whichever way we do this, either in the old way or in the new way, they still need the information. Also, it will not assist them greatly as they plan their budgets for 2013-14. So while I understand the concerns of local government and of noble Lords, we would be kidding ourselves if we thought that there would be any difference if we were still in the situation of the formula grant. As I have said, the noble Lord has put a string of questions, some of which will be answered when other amendments are moved; they will pick up on some of the issues. Perhaps I may come back to those later.
While we are not able to confirm funding levels for individual local authorities until the start of the consultation on the provisional local government finance settlement, the Government have actually provided a lot of detail and supportive information. It has been pouring out all summer. Discussions have taken place with local government representatives, including the Local Government Association, and we will publish very shortly an additional exemplification on overall funding to enable individual local authorities to develop their modelling for the budget processes. In mid November we will also start a consultation on the data that the Government propose to use when calculating the settlement. This is an integral part of the settlement process that will throw light on some of the points raised by the noble Lord. We will also be publishing in draft all the key regulations that authorities will need to take into account later this month or early next month, and indeed I think that the noble Lord has probably seen those that have been done already.
The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, returned to the attack on council tax support. Perhaps I may duck that for the moment because it is going to be very relevant to the next part of the Bill. We will be able to discuss the issues at length when we reach that point.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked about a timetable for responding to the consultation. The Government’s response to the consultation exercise will form part of the local government finance report. It will set out how we will set up the rates retention scheme and the detail of elements, including the tariffs and top-ups. While what we are talking about will be later than is ideal, the system stacking up behind it is that local government will have practically all the information it is going to need, just not the dots and crosses, by the time the settlement is announced. As I say, I do not take any exception to the fact that it has been drawn to our attention that the settlement will be late. It will be.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Smith for his support for this amendment. He and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and, indeed, the Minister are the voice of practical experience on local councils and are therefore particularly valuable. My noble friend Lord Smith referred to the fact that just this week we had further input into the system with the council tax freeze grant. It is interesting that the Secretary of State can find the money for a council tax freeze grant at the same time as lopping the best part of half a billion pounds off council tax support, but these are issues that I am sure we will come on to. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that it is the most difficult so far. I think we have to watch this space under the new system.
I accept that the noble Baroness has given us some further information on timing, but I would appreciate it if she would pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, about reviewing all the issues that we have raised so that we can have as complete an answer as possible before Third Reading, which is our last opportunity to deal with this.
The noble Baroness said that it would be as bad if we were staying with the current system and were not changing the system. The crucial difference is that what is happening under the new system is, if the Government have their way, going to be set in stone for the best part of seven years. I genuinely suggest that that is a different perspective and a particular challenge for all local authorities. Having said that, and on the assurance that we will be getting further information before Third Reading, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, my noble friend referred several times to a review in 2013. While I am sure that he would like to have a review in 2013—would not we all?—I suspect that he might have meant 2016, which is the intention of the amendment. A review in 2013 is not a practical possibility, even if it were desirable.
My noble friend also said—and I rather agree with him—that the amendment from the Labour Benches is possibly the first firm election pledge that we have heard from the party opposite. I must say that I took it in a slightly different way. Although we will certainly have a new Government, of whatever composition, by 2016, this amendment seems to be an expression of doubt that the party opposite will be in a position to have a review even if it wants one. I am not quite as confident as my noble friend Lord True regarding the Labour Party’s intentions here.
My noble friends on this side have made the point that a review may very well be desirable, and of course there are a lot of uncertainties in introducing something as far-reaching as this—of course there must be, they are unavoidable. The review would also come in uncertain times, to say the least. However, I very much doubt whether we need to have in the Bill a binding commitment to a review in 2016. As my noble friend said, it would introduce yet another uncertainty. People would say, “The review is going to come. What will it say? Shall we try and hang on for another year or two?”. A review may very well be desirable at some point. It may happen in 2016, before that or afterwards. If the Government of the day, whoever they are, were able to carry out a review at such a time, in such circumstances and with such terms of reference as they chose, I would caution against having it as a legislative requirement in an Act of Parliament, three years in advance.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Tope for his final comments. We do not believe that a set review, with a timetable in the Bill, is the right way to go about this. We all accept that there will be huge volatility in the system from now on, but I have to say that there would have been huge volatility whatever happened, because the whole economic situation is such that it is unavoidable that local government could escape any changes at all. Indeed, I well recall under Labour Governments and indeed under my own Government being outraged and upset as money swam away from us to other parts of the country. Therefore, the idea of local government money being different in different areas and changing from time to time is not new.
We do not think that the proposal to set the time for a review is sensible. As my noble friend Lord True said, this is something that will affect each local authority. They will have access, as they always have had, to the Government to make representations either individually or on behalf of themselves and others to discuss their needs and resources under the retention scheme. If they are significantly out of kilter, then of course the Government will listen to that, but I do not think that an independent review of the whole system is really going to achieve that. We will see how this goes and listen as and when any local authority wants to talk to us about it.
In addition, if we constantly—and even three years is pretty constant in terms of the changes being made—review the funding arrangements within the rates retention system, looking at tariffs, top-ups, levies and baseline funding, we will completely undermine one of the principles of the scheme, which is that local authorities should invest and benefit from growth. The noble Lord, Lord Smith, said that the scheme will differ across the country and that some places will find it easier than others but, generally speaking, I do not think that a review in three years’ time is going to help us with that. For this growth to work at all, we have to understand that the rewards from investment need time to take effect and a longer-term view will be necessary for the investments to be worth while. By resetting the system too often, you simply move away from that situation.
The Government are satisfied that they are setting out the scheme until 2020—that is, with a reset after seven years. That will enable local authorities to understand what they are able to keep and the proceeds that they are going to be able to initiate to stir up and improve local businesses and to get the economy flowing in their area. I hope the House will understand that we do not think it is right to set a formal time limit for reviewing the system, but clearly with a new system of any sort the Government are not simply going to say, “Well, there you are. Thanks, that’s it. We have no more interest in this”. That is clearly not the situation, and certainly we will always be open to having discussions as the scheme develops. With that, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I am sorry but not surprised at the response from the coalition Benches. In particular, in responding the noble Baroness went back to the mantra of saying that the scheme has to run until 2020 to ensure that there is an appropriate incentive, yet at the same time she said that the Government are going to keep it under review. The purpose of setting down the need for an independent review after a fixed period is, in a sense, to force the Government of the day, whoever they are, to take stock of where things are at that point. Otherwise, should this Government continue after 2015, there is a risk that nothing will happen until 2020. I thought that the position taken by the noble Lords, Lord True and Lord Tope, was, “Yes, give me a review but just not now or just not by this mechanism”. If not by this mechanism, what will force the review? Of course, there will be ongoing discussions and representations—that is an automatic part of government business. However, that is not the same as saying, “We have a new system here”. We are placing great reliance on calculations done for tariffs and top-ups right at the start of the system and those will be locked in place for a minimum of seven years and potentially longer. That does not seem sensible to me.
That does not address the issues that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, made about the volatility of what is happening in the valuation of property and the domestic rating system generally. Although we had some very valuable input from the noble Earl in Committee about what is happening in that system where it is administered by central government, the risks are increasingly with local government. To allow that to continue without some formal check for seven years, or maybe longer, does not seem right to me.
I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, on this. As he said, other amendments go further, and this is a very moderate amendment. He made the important point that growing a local economy does not necessarily always equate with growing the business base rate, particularly as high-tech matters come into play.
As ever, the noble Lord, Lord Smith, put his finger on the issue. This is a huge gamble in the new system. We need to ensure that it is fair and flexible, and not only at the start of the system—and we would challenge that it is. However, even if it is, we need to ensure that fairness is maintained throughout the period before it can be readjusted by way of a reset.
The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, said that it was building uncertainty on uncertainty. I do not accept that. The right of the Secretary of State to change things on a yearly basis is embedded in the Bill. We know that the current one is not likely to do that and would not do it before 2020. This amendment simply requires the process to review the system along the way. We will not have a meeting of minds on this so I would like to test the opinion of the House.
Baroness Hanham
“(za) payments made by the Secretary of State in the year under regulations under section 99(3) that make provision in relation to non-domestic rates,”
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I feel that this amendment is actually extremely important. I draw the Minister’s attention to a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which has confirmed that councils in the north of England are having to cut spending at almost three times the rate of councils in the south. In absolute terms of course, many councils in the north receive more revenue support per head than councils in the south, and will go on doing so, but then their needs in many places are also greater. The principles of resource equalisation continue to matter greatly, if we are to meet need fairly across the country.
This problem of deeper cuts in the north would have occurred had a Labour Government been elected in 2010, not least because Labour had plans to dismantle working neighbourhoods funding, worth several million pounds a year to many councils. However, I support the aim behind Amendment 7, because it maintains the principle of allocating spending against need and against the availability of resources, which I fear is increasingly in danger of being lost sight of, given recent settlements.
I hope that the Minister will be able to accept the amendment, or at least indicate agreement to its spirit: to ensure that resource distribution reflects the principles of need and equalisation. If the Government do not give that commitment, it implies that they are no longer in favour of resource equalisation.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their contributions. I appreciate that the use of the central share is of concern and interest, particularly once we get through the next couple of years. Amendment 7 would ensure that the central share money would always be distributed on the basis of need. We have said that the central share money will always be returned to local government. The basis of the central share going to the Government is that it will then be used for local government. The question of need and special grants will be covered by the central share. That is basically what the central share will do. I cannot at the moment give the absolutely unqualified assurance that both noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord McKenzie, asked for on resource need equalisation. I am pretty sure that that is correct, but I will come back to them if there is any change to that.
I also confirm that the amount of revenue support grant in the system will reflect future spending reviews, so the Government’s view of the funding will be available to local government in advance. I hope that with that rather short explanation the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am bound to say that I do not feel that we have made any progress on this issue as a result of that response. I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on the issue. It seems to me to be a core point about how this will work that the Government have some idea of what they are going to do with the central share. Yes, we understand that it will be returned on some basis to local government in England but, as I pointed out when I moved the amendment, that might just be diverting whatever resources go through the schools grant. At the moment there are some £30-odd billion, as I understand it, that could be switched for use in the central share.
With great respect, I do not find it satisfactory that we are still left substantially in the dark even about the principles to be applied, beyond any use for revenue support grant. We know that system, we know what it does, but we know that it will be discretionary not mandatory in future. That is in the Bill. I find that profoundly unsatisfactory. If the Minister said that she could say more at Third Reading, that might help me with my next move. If not, I am inclined to get this in the Bill, but I should like to hear from her first.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I have given an explanation of what the central share is. I understand that the noble Lord wants absolute specifics of what the central share will encompass and what it will be used for. I do not have those details. I assure him that he will have them well before Third Reading so that we can come back to it if necessary.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, on that basis, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment on the proviso that if what comes forward does not really address the point, I will revisit it at Third Reading. I stress that it is not the detail of every pound, it is the principles that will underpin its use that I seek. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hanham
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, my noble friend and I have tabled Amendment 15 in this group, to which I shall speak briefly. I shall then comment on the other amendments in the group. Amendment 15 is by way of a short probing amendment to follow up a point which I think is still outstanding from Committee. It seeks to determine how the rates generated from the central rating list will feature in the business rate retention scheme. Essentially, it is asking how local government gets the benefit of this measure, if at all. Does it feed into the central share, which is then paid back through certain processes or does local government get half of it up front through the sharing arrangement? Of course, the central list is the list on which utilities find themselves because they cannot very easily be distributed among a range of individual authorities. It would be good to know how local government gets the benefit of the business rate on central list items.
I wholeheartedly support Amendment 37A in the name of my noble friend Lady Thornton, as do all other noble Lords who have spoken on it. An interesting facet of the background to the amendment is that we are reminded, when considering this system, that local authorities can be both payers and collectors of the business rate. That is part of the issue that the measure is highlighting. The solution of seeing mandatory relief on an ongoing basis as a new burden to be met from the central share seems to me absolutely right. I think the intention is that that should be the position between resets and that resets would be the point where you would have a squaring up and look at aggregate business rates and proportionate shares. Therefore, that would be a point at which you could recalibrate tariffs and top-ups and that would deal with the matter. I think that that was the intention behind casting the amendment in that way.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has, as ever, brought forward some interesting amendments. We cannot support all of his amendments but we can certainly support some. He took us back to the economic analysis which underpins much of the Bill and the benefits of localisation. Although the relevant report was quite heavily caveated, that does not deny the thrust of the points which the noble Lord made. Nevertheless, as my noble friend Lord Smith said, much of the analysis might have referred to a previous era. I think that the starting point of the analysis was a look at what happened in reverse, when the business rate was nationalised and the system went from being a local one to a national one. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, was ecstatic about localism having been achieved. I had understood localism to be not only about getting a share of what you collect but also about having some influence on the rate of tax. I thought that that was the noble Lord’s ambition at one stage. I am not sure whether it is his ambition now.
We have an issue with Amendment 10 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, which basically says that after a period of time there will be no central share. Apart from the fact that I do not think any Government will totally relinquish attempts to influence local government, the amendment raises the issue of how you rebalance the potential inequities that might arise from relying just on the business rate shares. That issue also applies to Amendments 11 and 12, particularly Amendment 12.
I entirely support Amendment 13. In fact, it coincides with the proposition that we make in Amendment 16, which basically means that you should lock in the local share so that it can never be less than 50%. I think the noble Lord’s amendment does more than that, but it achieves that objective as well.
As regards the ratchet, if the proposition is that there should be opportunities for the local share to increase, we can support that. I know that the noble Lord is not necessarily particularly wedded to the mechanistic approach but is addressing the concept. However, when you change the local and central shares, logic demands that you have to recalibrate and reset the system. I do not know what the Minister’s notes say about that. However, I think that once you start doing that, you have to revisit tariffs and top-ups. That follows logically from the way the system is constructed. That is tied up with the other components of the system and the debate we have just had about what happens to any component of the central share and how that is deployed back to local government. Will it be done on a basis that has regard to resources? On one basis, we might be content to see a higher central share than other noble Lords would prefer; not as high as 50%, but not necessarily right at the extreme edge of what might be achieved.
I say to my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh that there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to keep down the price of beer, although I accept that doing it via the rates might be pushing one’s luck a bit. Again, we have heard the voice of experience, particularly in the context of the amendment of my noble friend Lady Thornton. The concept of trying to give local authorities a three-year indication about the funding they can have must make sense. The current system is an improvement on what existed in the past. The requirement that there be consultation with local government on the setting of the shares must be absolutely right.
My noble friend’s Amendment 17 requires that the local government finance report specify the central and local shares and that it be laid before the House of Commons,
“including the full details of the consultation undertaken”,
in respect of that determination. That seems a modest but entirely reasonable amendment and it has our full support. I hope that the Minister will feel able to support it.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, this debate has taken us through several areas. Sometimes the groupings are more interesting than the actual outcomes. We have a raft of issues that have come into the debate.
It might be worth, at the outset, repeating something that I said in Committee. All of us here who have had anything to do with local government have for years said, “Let us keep the business rate and bring it all back”. That principle—the fact that local government will retain the business rate—has been accepted in the Bill. However, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made the good point that you would never have been able to keep it all. Some form of an equalisation scheme was always going to be needed, because some authorities receive far more business rate than others. The concept of keeping 100% in every local authority was clearly never going to work.
What has been accepted—and we have accepted it in our discussions today—is the principle, which was never there before, that local government should retain the business rate. Therefore, that leaves us with a movable feast and brings us back to the issue of the 50% retention. We have made it clear, and I made it clear in Committee, that the 50% is there at the moment entirely because of the economic situation. We have to make sure that local government is part and parcel of the resolution of the difficulties that we face. We hope that the deficit will be short-term. It does not feel much like that at the moment, but once the economic situation begins to improve, we hope that there will be a reduction in the percentages. Obviously, I cannot say today that the figure will reduce from 50% by 5% year on year. I am not completely sure that my noble friend Lord Jenkin thinks that that would happen. All I can say is that if we get improvement in the economic situation, we will be in a much stronger position to ensure that that 50% share gradually reduces.
I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is going to debate the next amendment, regarding the heads or tails side of the coin. The answer is yes, so we will come back to that.
Amendments 12 and 17 would require specific consultation with local government on the central and local share. That is an important point. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Smith, that the draft local government finance report will set out the central and local shares, and that in itself has to be consulted upon. Therefore, there will be consultation—actually, a specific consultation within the finance report. I am not sure that anything is to be gained by adding anything to what is there at the moment.
The process of setting central and local shares has to reflect the Government’s ability to protect the interests of the taxpayer. I have said that at length and I reiterate it. It is essential that a judgment is made about the macro economy before any changes can take place. More generally, we have made clear that we would not anticipate central and local shares changing from year to year. At the moment it is going to be a ratio of 50:50, until something happens to change that, and the reset will be in seven years. We would expect the central share to remain unchanged between 2013-14 and 2020. That takes in the reset and the setting of the tariffs and top-ups. We would also expect the tariffs and top-ups to remain within the seven years. As we have discussed, if there are particular problems, it is clear that the Government will need to take them on board.
Also regarding the 50:50, and as laid out at the moment, the Government and local authorities, within the seven years and the split shares, will have a much better idea of how much there will be by way of support—what local authorities’ financial obligations are to central government and what they can receive from it. Local government has wanted that for a long time—the ability to know, year on year for a reasonable length of time, what their income and expenditure, and likely contribution to the Government, are going to be.
Again, I am not sure that Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, will be necessary. Local authorities are going to know reasonably confidently what their central share will be for the next seven years until 2020. I think that he accepts that because I see him nodding.
In talking to Amendment 15, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raised the issue of the central list—the element of business rates that is collected directly by central government from local government and network properties. Income from the central list will be paid into the main rating account, as provided for in paragraph 2(1)(a) of new Schedule 7B to the 1988 Act, as inserted by Schedule 1. I am sure that the noble Lord wanted to know that and that Hansard will be delighted. That will happen. Along with the other money paid into that account it will be used solely for the purposes of local government. As I said when responding to previous amendments, the central share comes back to local government. What we have not bottomed out—and I promise to do so—is exactly what that central share contains. That is what we will do before the next session. The central share will also be used to fund the revenue support grant and/or specific grants in the first couple of years.
The existence of £1.2 billion of central list money collected every year was also taken into account in the macroeconomic judgments that went into the Government’s announcement of the 50:50 share. It is not and should not be taken into account in the arithmetical calculation of the estimated business rates aggregate—I know that the noble Lord wants to know this also—that will determine the total funding in the rates retention scheme, as sought by Amendment 15. If this were to happen, it would simply increase the total aggregate rates income and, paradoxically, would thereby reduce the revenue support grant available to local government. We have heads and tails again.
I hope that I have given a reasonable explanation of why we will not be able to accept these amendments. I am not sure whether my noble friend Lord Jenkin will be persuaded to withdraw Amendment 10, but I ask noble Lords not to press the other amendments on these subjects. However, I hope that he will at least understand my explanation.
In 2012 we held technical consultations to explain to local authorities that they will be fully compensated for both the mandatory and the discretionary relief that they currently give at the point that the scheme is set up. I refer to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. In addition, local authorities will be compensated for any new mandatory reliefs through the “new burdens” principle. The point has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, and others that the setting up of trusts, at the moment and in the future, would form a new burden. However, in line with the general principles that risks and rewards under the scheme would be shared between central and local government, the costs of any changes in the amount of mandatory discretionary relief given by local authorities will be shared. That point was made by the noble Baroness—that the 80% was fully funded by government in the past but now it will be shared 50:50.
We are undoubtedly aware of the concerns that have been raised by authorities about the funding of reliefs, particularly the mandatory relief—we have had that response in the consultations. We will consider the position further before taking a final decision later this year. If the noble Baroness is asking for discussions, I shall be happy to talk about this further between now and the next session if that would be helpful. If we were going to change the arrangements, we think that we could do so through secondary legislation, so let us see where we can get to with that. On the basis that we will have further discussions, perhaps I do not need to go any further into the benefits or otherwise of the amendments, and I look forward to talking to the noble Baroness in the next week or so.
With those comments, I hope that my noble friend Lord Jenkin will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, that intervention reminds me that almost exactly a year ago we had quite a long debate in your Lordships’ House about what localism is. My noble friend Lord Greaves and I tried to set down, at some length, what we think localism means and it rapidly became clear that localism means what you want it to mean. In the ensuing 12 months, it has become increasingly clear that localism means what you want it to mean. Increasing pronouncements from central government—from my Government—demonstrate that point.
I am sure that there is no one involved with this Bill and no one in local government who does not agree with the view expressed in this amendment. In that, I include the Minister, who will speak for herself. I am sure she cannot say that but I am equally sure that she agrees with the views expressed. I even dare to go so far as to say that I suspect that the Secretary of State would agree with the view expressed. However, we all have to recognise the reality that no Minister in any Government will accept this amendment. The Treasury would simply never let them. That is a hard reality of life and one that I personally regret very much. Before today, the Minister has gone a considerable way, and I hope she will in a few minutes’ time, when she replies, make it very clear to us that the genuine intention of the Government is that it should not and will not go below 50%. I was not at the Local Government Association conference—I am one of the few people here who is not a vice-president—but I read that the Secretary of State, Mr Pickles, was urging delegates there to continue campaigning for a higher share than 50%. Perhaps that was just a populist appeal at the time but I like to think that that was the sentiment.
I think we all share the view expressed in the amendment. If we are honest, I think most of us realistically understand that no government Minister, of whatever party or coalition, would be able to accept that amendment. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for moving the amendment and allowing us to press the point even further. I think the point is well and truly made and accepted. When the time comes, I hope that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank my noble friends behind me for their contributions. In the middle of the previous amendment, I asked the noble Lord whether he was going to move this one but I am very happy, now that he has done so, to reiterate that the Government’s intention is to increase the 50% share of local authorities as soon as there is economic acceptance that we can do so.
As other noble Lords have said, I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, who was in government and who knows all about the difficulties, would believe at this stage of the Bill that we would be able to restrict the future ability of a Government if the situation ever arose—I hope that it never will and that things will get better rather than worse. I do not think that we could tie the hands of future Governments or of this Government with any statement that the share would never go up. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that. I reiterate that, as and when we get to a situation in which we can see the economy going in the right direction, further consideration might be given to that. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply and other noble Lords who have spoken. It seems that we are all on the same page, going in the same direction and all in agreement that the local share must not be less than 50%, but somehow we do not want to commit to that in legislation. Primary legislation does lock Governments in but not for ever. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, said that the Treasury would not allow it. If we passed it into legislation, the Treasury would have to accept it, would it not? The point of putting things into primary legislation is to stop the Treasury’s controlling instincts.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I will say briefly that the mishap to which I referred earlier has occurred again with these amendments. My name should have been on the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. It did not happen, but my support is there. Again, I will not repeat what he said. He made the case very well, and we are all keen to hear what the Minister has to say in response. My noble friend Lord Jenkin again confessed to being the man who nationalised the business rate. I think that we have all long since forgiven him for the errors and misdeeds of his youth. He has more than compensated for them in the years since.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I will start with Amendments 73, 79 and 81. I realise that that may seem slightly perverse given how they are laid out in the list, but it makes reasonable sense. Amendment 73 requires the publication of a raft of information that is already published by my department and is part of statistical releases that are all published as well—and will be in future. To say explicitly in the Bill that they must be published and laid out would be a quite unnecessary duplication. All the information will be set out in each year’s local government finance report, and so will be available to all those who want it.
Amendments 79 and 81 seek to ensure that needs are explicitly taken into account after the system is up and running, by providing for authorities to be able to make representations calling for a reset, and for the Secretary of State to make a reassessment of the system every three years. We discussed much of that and I will not again go through the arguments I made. I just need to say that to enable an effective incentive for economic growth, we need to give local authorities certainty about the length of time they will keep the rewards from generating local economic growth. That is the answer I gave earlier and that is what I say again. Frequent resets on the system would undermine this, to the detriment of the national economy and of local authorities. I hope that in due course noble Lords will not press those amendments.
Amendment 18 seeks to ensure that the local government finance report must be laid before the other place by 30 November each year. The amendment is both impractical and unhelpful. When discussing the previous group of amendments, I explained that the local government finance report cannot be laid this year until after the Autumn Statement. The Chancellor recently announced that this would take place on 5 December. I also recognise the complications of this for local government budget setting, regardless of whether the rate retention scheme is introduced. I will not go back over the arguments presented to the House a moment ago, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, will withdraw Amendment 18 on the basis that we have already discussed the issue.
Amendments 57 and 58 were tabled by my noble friend Lord Jenkin, as well as by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Beecham—and by my noble friend Lord Tope in absentia. They seek to reverse the changes made in the other place to the way in which the Government will distribute surplus levy income. I sympathise with the intentions of the noble Lords who tabled the amendments. The Government’s intentions were very similar when we introduced the Bill in the other place at the beginning of the year. However, after further consideration we recognised that specifying the basis for distributing the surplus levy in the local government finance report, as opposed to in regulations, was not advantageous for local government. Therefore, in responding to the amendments, I shall go through in some detail the advantages of the Government’s approach. I hope that my explanation will address the concerns of noble Lords and underline why I will not be able to support their proposed approach.
I remind the House that the levy on disproportionate gain is a key part of the business rates retention scheme, the safety net in particular. The money collected will be used for one purpose only: to fund safety net payments to local authorities that see significant reductions in their retained business rates incomes. The Government have always made it clear that, if any levy collected is not required to fund the safety net, it will be completely redistributed to local government. We are committed to this principle and we will not hold on to larger and larger surpluses.
Baroness Hanham
Baroness Hanham
“( ) This paragraph is subject to regulations under paragraph 7A.”
Baroness Hanham
“( ) about the making of a payment by a billing authority to the Secretary of State or vice versa where— (i) a calculation of a payment under paragraph 6 is made by reference to an estimate of an amount, and(ii) it is subsequently determined that the actual amount is more or less than the estimate.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton
We have tabled Amendment 82 in this group, to which I will speak very briefly because it has effectively been covered in the subset of the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. It deals with refunds of non-domestic rates in circumstances where the rates were collected and paid over in a period prior to 1 April 2013 but where, under the new system, an authority has to reimburse a business rate payer on appeal. Our amendment states that there should be reimbursement in the first case from,
“undistributed business rates at 31st March 2013”,
and then from the central share. I take this opportunity to ask the Minister: what is the level of the undistributed business rate at 31 March 2013? A letter before Third Reading would be fine.
Amendments 24, 37, 38 and 40 are extensive and complex, and I know that they have been pursued by the City of London. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, for securing a briefing which certainly helped our understanding of what it seeks to do. As we have heard, it seeks to address what is argued to be an inequity in the current business rate retention scheme proposals arising in respect of valuation appeals. As we have heard, they form two types of appeal in particular: those arising from error from an initial valuation being too high; and those arising from market movements such as a general fall in the local property market.
The amendment proposes a three-part solution for the impact of the initial valuation appeals. For any business rates collected and passed over to or shared with the Government, there should be a refund to local authorities which have had to fully reimburse the ratepayer. Those should be very straightforward. Secondly, top-ups and tariffs should be adjusted to reflect lower incomes from the past. Thirdly, top-ups and tariffs should be adjusted for the future to reflect lower business rate income. That is the proposition, and a similar approach is suggested for market property movements.
The case for neutralising the effect of market reductions, as the Government propose for market revaluations, seems entirely reasonable. My uncertainty, without having had the opportunity to work through this in great detail, is whether the express remedies relating to the adjustments of top-ups and tariffs can work as suggested. While the legislation would allow adjustment for individual authorities for those components, the system envisages calculation of aggregate business rates and proportionate shares. Recognising changes to some local authorities would imply changes to the whole way in which the formula works. Obviously, the process of resetting would cover that, but its timing cannot be driven by the outcomes of appeals. The issues raised by the amendments are real, but I look forward to the Minister’s response on the particular solutions proposed.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Jenkin for explaining his long amendments so succinctly. I hope that I can be succinct in response; I can see people looking at their watches. We have recognised the question of appeals from the outset. As early as the summer of 2011, we recognised that the rate retention scheme would have to accommodate the volatility that exists in the business rate system.
My noble friend gave us all the notes and half the answers, so some of this will be repetition. The technical paper to which he referred, published in August 2011, looked at the question of the volatility of the rating system, such as from rating appeals, and considered how it should be treated in the rate retention system.
Rather than seeking to categorise in some way all the many thousands of alterations to the waiting list made each month, we proposed a general safety net to protect authorities from large reductions in their income, whatever the reason for it. Almost 80% of the respondents to the consultation agreed with the general safety net approach, so that is what we have adopted in the Bill. Conversations with local government are still going on about the issue; they went on throughout last year. We continue to explore whether it would be possible to isolate specific types of alteration to the rating list, but we have not seen any proposals—even in the amendments tabled by my noble friend—which would adequately address the issue in a fair way while maintaining a reasonable share of risk and reward between local and central government. Noble Lords will recognise that appeals can go either way. You may end up quids in on one appeal and quids out on another, but a local balance can be struck from that.
The amendments precisely illustrate the problem as, taken together, they would pass to central government all the risk associated with most alterations to the rating list, including all alterations to the current compiled rating list. They would leave central government carrying most of the risk on business rates while allowing local government to pick up all the rewards when the rates go up. That does not strike the right balance, but our discussion with local government has not found any better formulation than we have here at the moment. That is why we are proposing in the Bill a general safety net to protect local government income from alterations to the rating lists, whatever the reasons for that change. The safety net will work on the basis of the baseline.
There was mention of transition. We recognise that when the rate retention scheme commences there will still be historic alterations to be made to the rating lists. Many of these alterations, including additions for new buildings as well as reductions from appeals, will be backdated into years prior to 2013. While this is all part of the system that we will localise from next April, we appreciate that not all alterations have been captured in the baselines when setting up that system. We have therefore promised that some allowance should be made for appeals when setting it up. To deliver on this promise, we will adjust the starting position for local authorities so that they have extra financial headroom for changes to the rating list, such as from appeals—and that will be in the baseline. We will set out the size of this adjustment in the draft local government finance report. The adjustment will provide extra cash for local government to manage its appeals.
I accept that the matter of volatility in the rating system is a challenge for the rate retention system. As I have said, it is a matter we have recognised from the outset. We have been and remain in discussions with local government throughout the passage of the Bill. The combination of a general safety net and an allowance for appeals in the set-up of the scheme seems to provide a reasonable solution and the right balance of risk and reward. My noble friend has laid out at great length the problems which London Councils, in particular, may still see but I hope that I have demonstrated that the Government have listened very carefully to what has been said and that there is a solution here which will be fair to just about everybody. I hope that my noble friend will be able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before the noble Baroness sits down, can she deal with the point about the undistributed rates at 31 March and what the quantum of that is?
Baroness Hanham
I apologise to the noble Lord but I think that when he asked the question he anticipated that that is actually quite detailed. It is not a figure that I have just got in my head, so perhaps I may write to him to give it.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, my noble friend has made it very clear that these matters are going to be dealt with in regulations. There will therefore be the opportunity to consider those regulations in draft and if necessary, to negotiate. As I understand it, the City authorities have been negotiating with my noble friend’s department for some time on this. This is not a new thing, but there still has to be an opportunity to try to reach a sensible agreement. I understand the point that my noble friend has made about not loading the whole thing on to government, but that agreement has to be fair to both parties. Having heard that, however, I do not think that I should talk any longer and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hanham
“Regulations about deductions from central share payments7A (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for the deduction from a payment to be made under paragraph 6 by a billing authority to the Secretary of State of an amount to be determined in accordance with the regulations.
(2) The regulations may, in particular, make provision for the determination of an amount to be deducted to be made by reference to the operation in relation to the billing authority of section 47 (discretionary relief).
(3) The consent of the Treasury is required to regulations under this paragraph.”