Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Suitability for Fixed Term Recall) Order 2025

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 1st July 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

I intervene to emphasise the point that I and the noble Lord, Lord Lemos, have made. In the case of offenders who commit a minor breach of their licence and have not been sentenced for a violent offence, there is surely a compelling case for not recalling them at all—there are other means of dealing with them through the Probation Service—so that we do not have a situation in which someone who has been in prison for fraud, for example, is stopped for a road traffic offence and sent back because they have breached the terms of their licence. It does not seem to make any sense in this context, and this could be done more or less immediately.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

I support the noble and learned Lord in that. There are recalls for failure to keep appointments, such as tagging appointments. If the Minister were to lay down a rule that people were to be tagged before they left prison and not wander around the countryside until they fail to make an appointment for that purpose, it would do a great deal of service.

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

Our probation officers are experts in managing risk and their decisions determine whether someone is recalled, but it is important that we look into examples where it seems that someone should not be recalled. We need to have diversion options available too; the breaches may be minor, but they might not be from the victim’s point of view and may be part of other offending behaviour. IPP offenders, for example, can sometimes be recalled if their behaviour is similar to their original offence.

I hope noble Lords agree that this order is necessary to address the critical capacity issues faced by our prisons in the immediate future and is an appropriate bridging measure to avert a crisis before longer-term solutions are implemented. This draft instrument is a critical part of the Ministry of Justice’s approach to ensuring that our criminal justice system can continue to operate effectively. I trust that your Lordships will recognise its necessity, and I therefore commend it to the Committee. I beg to move.

Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-sentence Reports) Bill

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Committee stage
Monday 19th May 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The Sentencing Council was very helpful in pausing its decisions. The noble Lord is right: there are a lot of moving parts at the moment, and we are waiting with bated breath for news of publication dates. But I am aware that we also want to pursue and get on with the fact that we do not want people to be treated unequally in front of a court.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

The Lammy report made it clear that there is inequality for certain groups because of their particular characteristics. My noble friend Lady Bakewell referred to the Gypsies. I declare an interest as a Welsh Gypsy, and I thank her for her support. What research is there to show that the obtaining of a PSR causes preferential treatment? What research is there to show that a judge will give a more lenient sentence if he has a PSR before him? Is there any and, if not, why not, before a Bill like this is brought forward? Surely the noble Lord will agree with what I said before: the more a sentencer knows about a person, the better it is and the better the sentence, both for the individual and for the community.

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

We are doing a large amount of work on collecting the data to understand the issue more widely, but I will write to the noble Lord with the exact information.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

There is no research, and this Bill has been brought forward on a premise that, from my experience, is wrong. It is that the provision of a pre-sentence report means that the judge will go easier upon the defendant. I think that is wrong and, without research, I do not see how you can bring this Bill forward.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

I appreciate that the Minister is in an interminable situation, but he did not actually respond to my key point, which is that there is an existing protection including the current mitigating factor for pregnancy. I drew attention to what was published in April last year, which already directs sentencers to obtain a PSR before sentencing and to adjourn sentencing until one is available, but this Bill is now making that unlawful. That is my key point.