Recalled Offenders: Sentencing Limits

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 19th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Victims’ Commissioner has warned that freeing offenders after only a 28-day recall will place victims and the wider public at an unnecessary risk of harm. Indeed, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner has said that the scheme is “simply unacceptable”. It amounts, in essence, to a transfer of a problem from prisons to the public. Does the Minister agree that he has got this proposed policy completely wrong and that the proper approach should be to address the matter of licence conditions, which are prescriptive?

If we address licence conditions sensibly, we will find that where violent offenders breach their licence conditions by reason of a further violent offence, they may be returned immediately to prison, but where a non-violent offender breaches a licence condition—for example, by not attending supervision, not going to a specified place of abode, or even by reason of a minor road traffic offence—there should simply be a points system, as there is for a driving licence. They would receive one, two and three warnings about a breach of their licence; they would get three points for one, three points for another, three points for a third; and if they persisted in breach of their licence conditions, then, like a driving licence, it would be revoked and they would return to prison. The vast majority of prisoners allowed out on licence are not violent offenders; the latter should return to complete their sentence. Does the Minister agree that the Government have gone off in the wrong direction with this proposal?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

My Lords, our mission is to protect the public, support victims and reduce crime. The worst thing that could happen for victims is for us entirely to run out of space in our prisons. That is forecast to happen in November, if we do not act now. The change announced last week to recall will create approximately a further 1,400 prison places and give us the time to carry out sentencing reform which, alongside prison building, will bring an end to the prison capacity crisis.

The reasons for that are clear. We have had 11 Justice Secretaries in 14 years. The previous Government built a net 500 prison places; we have 2,400 open already. Probation is a fantastic service that is really struggling. We recruited 1,000 extra probation officers last year and 1,300 this year. However, that is not all; we also have a big problem with drugs in our prisons. However, I can assure the House that offenders who pose the most risk and are actively managed by multiple agencies will be excluded from this measure, as well as those who commit serious further offences. We will publish details of that SI shortly, when we bring the measure before the House.

Sentencing Council Guidelines

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 2nd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

Nothing in the Bill prevents judges requesting a pre-sentence report for pregnant women—it is normal practice for judges to request pre-sentence reports in cases involving pregnant women—nor does the Bill affect Court of Appeal case law, which states that a pre-sentence report is desirable in those cases. I believe that pre-sentence reports are very important, but they have declined in number considerably over the last 10 years. From 2013 to 2023, they declined by 44%. That is why we are putting extra resources into probation, recruiting more probation officers so that they have the time to produce high-quality pre-sentence reports.

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister—perhaps the Minister of State for pouring oil on troubled waters—referred to the dialogue between his department and the Sentencing Council. But, as he knows, after the report became public on 5 March, that dialogue was far from helpful. The Sentencing Council pushed back hard on the suggestion from the Secretary of State for Justice that it had created a two-tier sentencing system. Therein lay the fundamental problem, which is that when the previous Labour Government created the Sentencing Council, they created a body that was not answerable to the judges or the Government. Does the Minister consider that that model is now compromised, as evidenced by recent events? Will his department address the issue of how sentencing guidance should be provided in future?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord is right to say that the Sentencing Council plays an important role in ensuring transparency and consistency in sentencing guidelines but I will not engage in the personal issues that he refers to. The Lord Chancellor is committed to reviewing the role of the Sentencing Council but it will take time to consider this carefully, so it is not appropriate for the Bill. For me, what is important is that we are proud of our judiciary and its independence, and the fact that, quite rightly, it is respected the world over.

Sentencing Council Guidelines

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Secretary of State for Justice appears to have implied, perhaps somewhat implausibly, that she and her department were not aware that the new Sentencing Council guidelines would introduce a two-tier justice system until their final publication two weeks ago. She in fact has representatives on the Sentencing Council. To be fair, the Secretary of State moved rapidly to address the grave problem that this presented, but simply encountered a more fundamental problem stemming from the way in which the previous Labour Government established the Sentencing Council. It is not directly answerable to any Minister. We are now told that the Secretary of State and the council are “talking”. However, discussing the height of the drop as you approach the precipice is no substitute for a plan of action. What is the plan and, if these disastrous guidelines come into force on 1 April as intended, who will resign? Will it be the Secretary of State for Justice or the chair of the Sentencing Council?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

The Sentencing Council is independent of Parliament and government. The council decides on its own priorities and workplan for producing guidelines. The Lord Chancellor was clear about her discontent with the guidance when it was published on 5 March, which was the first time that she and other Ministers had heard about it. It is her view, and mine, that there should not be differential treatment before the law. The Lord Chancellor met with the chair of the Sentencing Council last Thursday and had a constructive discussion. The Lord Chancellor will be setting out her position in writing to the Sentencing Council and it has agreed to reply before 1 April. We will not get ahead of ourselves beyond that.

Prison Maintenance: Insourcing

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 23rd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. The key is to deliver value for money. If we had intervened in the process, it would have cost more. Ultimately, we are not opposed to considering a public sector option, and we will keep it under review. The question I keep asking myself and officials is whether we are getting value for money, and rehabilitative, safe and decent prisons?

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, Rule 31 of the Prison Rules 1999 provided that all convicted prisoners should be required to do useful work for up to 10 hours a day, and indeed it is a disciplinary offence for a prisoner to refuse to work. Yet we are constantly being told of prisoners spending 20 hours a day idle in their cells or cellblocks. Is this a failure of management or a failure of resources? Will the Government undertake to review such initiatives as the New Futures Network, which was established to allow businesses to set up workspaces within prisons?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

It is vital that, when people are in prison, they are in purposeful activity and not in their cells, so we are putting a lot of effort into getting more people out of their cells for longer. We have still got an awful lot more to do. We have too many prisons for the workshop and educational spaces that we have. The New Futures Network, with which I have been involved for many years, has been very successful in increasing the amount of people who get jobs on release from prison. Three years ago, 14% of people who left prison had a job after six months, and it is now over 30%.

Drones: High-security Prisons

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the Chief Inspector of Prisons has just delivered a devastating report on conditions at His Majesty’s Prison Long Lartin and His Majesty’s Prison Manchester. At HMP Manchester, almost 40% of prisoners have failed standard drug tests. The Chief Inspector of Prisons has reported that criminal gangs now, in effect, control the airspace above this high-security prison using drones. A number of years ago, the use of drones was emerging, and they could be controlled by physical defences such as nets and blocked windows. Unfortunately, even these basic defences were neglected at HMP Manchester. However, there have been recent and rapid developments in drone technology. First-person viewing drones, GPS-controlled drones and others are all capable of delivering not only drugs but weapons and even explosives. Will the Minister address not only the existing security failures at HMP Manchester but the possible introduction of electronic countermeasures at high-security prisons such as HMP Manchester?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord is completely right that drones pose a major and serious threat to all our prisons. I have been visiting Manchester prison for over 20 years, and I went there just before Christmas, in the light of the problems that it has. I saw for myself the issues that staff are dealing with, with 49% of the prisoners arriving in the prison being addicted to drugs. I cannot share the counter-drone tactics as that would play into the hands of sophisticated and serious organised criminals. I can assure the noble and learned Lord that we are currently getting on with a number of fixes, but the biggest fix is ensuring there is no market for drugs and weapons in the first place, and that people in prison are there to get on with their sentence, get educated and do purposeful activity, so that when they are out, they stay out.