Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) Order 2011
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Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I confess to being slightly confused. The Minister has addressed the orders in a different order from that in which they appear on today’s Order Paper—and they do have different aspects. As I understand it, the Law Society and the Council for Licensed Conveyancers are content with the modification of functions order, but the SRA is not content with the other order, which covers appeals against licensing authority decisions. Therefore, we are dealing with both bodies in relation to one order and one body in relation to the other.
I see no reason to object in any way to the proposal that there should be changes, to the powers of, first, the Law Society to enable it to make compensation arrangements, and to those of the council. Both seek to provide a fund for people who are damaged either by Law Society-regulated bodies or Council for Licensed Conveyancers bodies. They will have a common fund, as I understand it, from which compensation can be paid.
I will raise a single point that was put forward by the Law Society in its parliamentary brief, namely its concern about arrangements to ensure that the prospective owners of alternative business structure firms are fit and proper persons.
It is important that the Government should make a commitment that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 should not be allowed to stand in the way of the approval of those who wish to involve themselves in alternative business structures. I have had the experience in Hong Kong of appearing, instructed by firms which were essentially Triad-funded, with a front of a solicitor who did very little except ultimately go to jail. The warning was there: one cannot be too blasé in these alternative business structures. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, will know how I feel about alternative business structures, but those arguments seem to be a long way away from where we are today. Can the Minister address the question of whether an exception can be made so that the licensing authorities can stop individuals with criminal convictions from becoming involved in ABS firms, specifically after the 10-year period has passed when their convictions might be concealed for other purposes? That is my only point on this order.
On the order about appeals from licensing authority decisions, it seems appropriate that the First-tier Tribunal should act as the appellate body for appeals in relation to licensing authority decisions. We certainly supported the setting up of the new tribunal system, with the First-tier Tribunal and Upper Tribunal. They contain people of considerable and wide experience, not necessarily totally involved in this area but nevertheless well capable of dealing with the issues that would arise in appeals from licensing authority decisions. I am surprised that the Law Society has decided to opt out and follow its own method of appeal. From the Explanatory Memorandum, it seems that the issue that very properly concerned the Law Society was that of costs. The tribunal has only a limited power to award costs, and the Law Society seemed to take the view that there should be a wide discretion, as for tribunals in other areas, to award all the costs when an appeal is dismissed having been improperly brought. Is that the issue? To set up a separate body to take these appeals seems quite unnecessary. Can the Minister help us with where he is on that basis?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel. I welcome these two orders, which appear a little technical—as, indeed, they are. But they are also important milestones on the road to seeing a new form of company opening for business which will help clients get access to good legal advice and enable “one-stop shops” to serve the needs of consumers. The Legal Services Act 2007 is a key piece of legislation introduced by the previous Government. It set up the Legal Services Board and the consumer panel which I have the honour to chair. That Act established independent oversight of the regulation lawyers. The Act clearly requires that such regulations should be in the interests of access to justice and the rule of law, and also be consumer focused.
The Act, as we know, set up the new legal ombudsman, which came intro operation in October last year. What is pertinent to today’s discussion is that it allows a new form of business, as the Minister has set out, combining law with other services in ways that we hope will better serve the needs of some clients in accessing particular types of service. As has been stated, the orders are part of the preparation for the introduction of the new business structures and are intended to ensure that the licensing authorities, which are the specialist parts of the approved regulators, will be ready to accept applications from October this year.
I, too, will start with the second order: like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, I had them originally in the other order. The second order deals with appeals that are turned down by the new licensing authorities. It gives the First-tier Tribunal the remit to hear appeals from the Council for Licensed Conveyancers. This is a sensible, proportionate and appropriate regime. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said that he was surprised that the solicitors were not similarly covered. I very much regret that absence, and the fact that the Solicitors Regulation Authority did not accept exactly the same system for appeals against its decisions as a licensing authority on the same issue: namely, rejections of applications to be allowed to operate the new business framework. As other noble Lords have been said, the SRA prefers its own Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal, for which, as we have heard, a separate order will come here in due course. I regret this because it will risk causing a delay to the desired 6 October start date. It will also mean, perhaps more seriously in the longer term, that there will be two tribunals dealing with essentially identical cases. It is in the interest of consumers, and more widely in everyone’s interests, that a single, consistent body of case law should develop about legal services regulatory matters. Despite the absence of the SRA, I nevertheless welcome the order, which allows for an efficient and cost-effective solution to regulation completely independent of the CLC.
On the first order, I simply note and welcome the proposed change in membership of the Council for Licensed Conveyancers, which, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, explained, will provide for a lay majority. This is in line with the Act’s requirement for the Legal Services Board and also with the LSB’s internal governance rules for all front-line, approved regulators.
Lord McNally
Yes, in Mandarin and with a suitable chart. We hope that the orders go some way along the line of trying to get some order into these things.
On the matter of the missing orders, they are being drafted. We are undertaking further consultation. At this stage, the draft standing order relating to the society is not finalised. Until it is, it cannot be approved to be laid before Parliament. As the order is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, it will require parliamentary debate and approval before the order can be made. We will be back, folks.
Quickly, on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, that again is under review. The point that was made is being taken on board. The Law Society Council will have arrangements in place to consider fitness of owners. They are set out in its licensing rules. The Law Society Council has asked for the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act to be extended. An order has been laid before the House adding the head of legal practices and head of financial administration to be covered by the law. Again, I note what has been said here. These are serious matters and areas that need to be tidied up as we go through the process of bringing the ABSs on board and getting the right lines of appeal.
I am just seeing if there is anything else that I have either not understood or not covered. A draft order will be debated in the House next week. We are aware of the additional requirements sought for owners and managers. The matter is being discussed at the moment so, again, watch this space. I thank the contributors to the debate. I hope that this has been enough clarification. If I have missed things I will write to noble Lords.
My noble friend Lord Thomas raised the point about what the solicitors did not like. The Law Society did not sign up because of a principal concern that changes were needed to the First-tier Tribunal general regulatory chamber rules to allow a general power to award costs. The LSB has asked the tribunal procedures committee to consider changes to its costs rules but, on 1 March 2011, the committee came to the preliminary view that the rules in their current form were adequate to determine whether one party or another should pay costs. The Law Society has not consented to this order. As was said, it has made provision in its proposed licensing rules for the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal to be the appellate body for its licensing appeals.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Before the Minister leaves that point, will he give us an assurance that he will take on board the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that it is quite wrong that there will be one way of appealing for ABS firms and another for Law Society-regulated firms? As she said, it is very important that there should be a common body that creates precedents on which people in future can advise and act.
Lord McNally
As a lay man, I was impressed that it was a consumer champion who made that point. Certainly I will take it on board. I know that in trying to get agreement one has to make sure that the profession is protected and that there are proper guarantees that these matters will not be repeatedly revisited. It is also important that, in getting through the negotiations, consideration is given to the consumer and to securing the clearest and most understandable forms of regulation. As I said when I read my brief, my heart sank a little when I saw that agreement had not been reached and that the bodies were going off in different directions. That was not the initial aim of the Act or the direction of travel that we want. Therefore, I hope that those responsible in the professions will note what has been said in this debate. I will report back to noble Lords and see whether we can help push these things in the right direction.
Co-operation in Public Protection Arrangements (UK Border Agency) Order 2011
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould: I was already on the next one. However, this time I cannot get anything in the wrong order because there is only one order. It adds the UK Border Agency to a list of bodies that are required to co-operate with local criminal justice agencies in each area in assessing and managing the risks posed by sexual and violent offenders. This co-operation already exists at an informal level. The order places it on a statutory basis, which should make it easier to identify, refer and manage foreign nationals in our criminal justice system.
The broad arrangements for co-operation are set out in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. Section 325(2) requires the responsible authorities in each area—the police, probation and prison services acting together—to make arrangements to assess and manage the risks posed by sexual and violent offenders. These are known as multiagency public protection arrangements—MAPPA—because the different agencies work together to protect the public. MAPPA provides a structure for identifying eligible offenders, notifying the relevant agencies, allocating offenders to various categories and levels depending on their offences and the degree of risk they pose, sharing relevant information about them and managing them through regular meetings and reviews.
Section 325(3) requires the responsible authority to co-operate with a list of other bodies specified in Section 325(6) in the task of assessment and management. It also places those bodies under a duty to co-operate with responsible authorities, including the local authority, social services, housing, education and health services, registered social landlords, youth offending teams, Jobcentre Plus and others. These agencies can expect to be notified when offenders who are relevant to them are identified. For example, if the offender is under 18, representatives from a youth offending team and local authority social services will be invited to all meetings where the management of the offender is discussed.
Those bodies are all specified in the Act. However, Section 325(7) also provides a power, subject to affirmative resolution, to amend the list of bodies with a duty to co-operate—to add to the list or remove from it. Parliament must have envisaged that circumstances might arise in which it would be beneficial to make equivalent statutory arrangements for co-operation between the responsible authority and other bodies. Those circumstances have now arisen.
The UK Border Agency is responsible, among other things, for the operation of internal immigration controls, including asylum, management of applications for further stay, and enforcement. It aims to protect the public by deporting foreign nationals who commit serious criminal offences, where legislation permits, and by actively monitoring and managing foreign national prisoners who are released into the community. Over the past few years, the UK Border Agency has been working with the criminal justice agencies in an attempt to manage foreign nationals who are MAPPA offenders more effectively. This process includes sharing information, where it is possible to do so, about developments in particular cases and developing release plans.
However, there are limits to what can be achieved by informal co-operation. Both sides agree that they could achieve more together if their co-operation were placed on a statutory footing. One of the most important benefits would be that a clear legal basis would exist for the exchange of information about foreign national MAPPA offenders. Section 325(4) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 explicitly provides that co-operation between the responsible authority and the specified bodies with a duty to co-operate may include the exchange of information. Other potential benefits include: ensuring that valuable resources are not expended on planning for the community supervision of an offender who will be subject to automatic deportation; ensuring that the UK Border Agency can prioritise enforcement action for the most dangerous sexual and violent offenders; and improving the information flow to immigration detention centres in respect of risk management and safeguarding—for example, in order to avoid the placement of certain offenders with children and vulnerable adults at the centres.
Co-operation between the responsible authority and the UK Border Agency will be governed by a memorandum of understanding drawn up in pursuance of Section 325(5) of the Act. This will set out clearly what each is required to do. For example, the responsible authority will notify the UK Border Agency of any MAPPA meetings to discuss a foreign national offender so that the agency may attend the meeting or provide information to it. Similarly, the UK Border Agency will notify the responsible authority if the offender is released from immigration detention or removed from the UK. Training has been provided to the relevant members of staff so that they can start to co-operate more effectively, subject to both Houses approving the draft order. I beg to move.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, it is clearly sensible that the agency should be brought within the scope of the public protection arrangements. I have nothing to add to that. The most important thing is that it should legalise the passing of information between the various agencies that are concerned with these matters.
Justice: Reform of Punishment, Rehabilitation, Sentencing and Legal Aid
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Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the review of indeterminate sentencing, which constitutes an injustice that has been perpetrated over a number of years. Many people are suffering as a result of those sentences having been passed on them. Are there any proposals for dealing with those who are serving indeterminate sentences and cannot get their freedom, though the tariff period has elapsed, because they cannot get access to courses?
I also applaud the abandonment of the proposed 50 per cent automatic reduction for guilty pleas. I have always opposed the concept that this Government, or any Government, should say what a proper sentence should be. Things can vary enormously, from an overwhelming case where the person must plead, to situations where there is very little case and a plea of guilty indicates remorse. A judge is in a position to judge that at the time. Do the Government intend that judges should continue to exercise such a discretion? However, I am dismayed by the reference to mandatory life sentences. They exist only for murder. Is it proposed that mandatory life sentences should be imposed for anything other than murder? That would be a very strange thing to happen.
Clinical negligence is to be out of the scope of legal aid. Surely the Government will permit the granting of legal aid for the investigation of clinical negligence, which is hugely expensive and beyond the means of anybody, particularly where children are involved. Justice demands that clinical negligence be properly supported to that degree.
Finally, on family law, have the Government considered the importance of family solicitors in reconciling parties on issues such as custody and maintenance and the enormous amount of money that they save from having these disputes settled out of court?
Crime: Homeowners’ Liability
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Lord McNally
I saw the report of that advice. All I can say is that it is an example of overcompensation. Certainly, putting wire mesh on a shed is not disproportionate. The law warns against disproportionate protection measures. The property owner has protection in law to protect their property proportionately.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Does the Minister see any reason to vary Section 329 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provided that civil proceedings brought by a burglar could be brought only with the permission of the court? It is a defence for the householder to say that he believed that the claimant was about to commit an offence or that he was defending himself. Does the Minister see any reason to change that position?
Lord McNally
No, my Lords. I believe that the party opposite can take credit for the Criminal Justice Act 2003 because, as my noble friend said, it included a test to make it more difficult for a person who has been convicted of an imprisonable offence to make a civil claim for damages unless what they had encountered was grossly disproportionate to the circumstances. It is interesting to note that, since the introduction of Section 329, we are not aware of any claims by criminals for trespass to the person succeeding.
Crime: Rape
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Courts: Super-injunctions
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Lord McNally
That goes to the nub of it. Quite clearly, what is of interest to the public can include areas which intrude into private life. Again, we are looking carefully at these matters. The fact that there is so much public discussion and debate means that it has been sensible to get the Master of the Rolls to look at these issues. When we have the full knowledge of his deliberations, we will make statements on steps forward.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Will my noble friend be good enough to tell us how many super-injunctions have been issued and are extant? Hugh Tomlinson QC, the leader in privacy law, tells me that the Ministry of Justice has no idea. Perhaps the Minister would send a runner down to the Royal Courts of Justice and find out exactly how many there are. The Times says 30; other newspapers say 800.
Lord McNally
I have to confess that the Ministry of Justice does not have a figure on the number of super-injunctions. I understand that the Ministry of Justice statistician, a post I was not aware of—
European Convention on Human Rights
Lord Thomas of Gresford Excerpts(14 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, the introduction of the Bill of Rights into Hong Kong in 1991 towards the end of British government put into effect the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in that territory. It was a Conservative Government who introduced it and, with the aid of the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Tillyorn, and later the noble Lord, Lord Patten, negotiated that the Bill should be enshrined in the basic law which now applies to Hong Kong.
That Bill of Rights remains as a bulwark of the right to life, to freedom of expression, assembly and religion, the right to equality and to the presumption of innocence, the right to property and to privacy, a right to travel, and a prohibition against arbitrary arrest, detention, imprisonment, search and seizure. I mention these matters because you have only to go a few miles over the border to see what it is like to live in a country where no such rights are enshrined in the constitution or, if they are, they are not put into effect. It is a stark contrast with what happened in Hong Kong.
The Bill of Rights in Hong Kong in its original form gave the courts the power to strike down any law that was incompatible with those rights. The Privy Council here in the case of Lee Kwong-kut in 1993, in which I was involved, tested that power in relation to a criminal charge where the burden of proof had been reversed. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who gave the judgment in that case, concluded:
“The issues involving the Hong Kong Bill should be approached with realism and good sense, and kept in proportion. If this is not done the Bill will become a source of injustice rather than justice and will be debased in the eyes of the public ... It must be remembered that questions of policy remain primarily the responsibility of the legislature”.
The Labour Government, led by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, and possibly in the light of that 1993 judgment, were less ambitious than their predecessor. The remedy for a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights under the 1998 Act, as the noble and learned Lord has already said, is merely a declaration of incompatibility, and it is left to Parliament to remedy the defect that the court demonstrates.
We have yet to consider the legislative reaction of this Government to the decision of our Supreme Court in the case of F in April 2010, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, has already referred. When a Statement was recently made by the Home Secretary and repeated in this House, I said that I was shamed by the language used. The noble and learned Lord has referred to the Home Secretary using expressions such as “disappointed and appalled” and to the Prime Minister finding the judgment “offensive” and questioning the sanity of the court.
We have not heard any more about that. The issue was whether a person could have the right to apply to remove his name from the sex offenders register and not have to give notice of wherever he happened to be in the world. Perhaps it is now realised that the solution put forward by the Home Secretary—that it should be left to the discretion of a policeman to revoke the order of a court—has not been further advanced because clearly it would not survive scrutiny.
I concur with the wise words of the noble and learned Lords, Lord Irvine and Lord Mayhew, about current criticism of the European convention. I will deal with the beneficial effect of the incorporation of the convention by illustrating the changes that have taken place in courts martial, largely as a result of the work of Gilbert Blades and John Mackenzie, who took a highly unsatisfactory system of courts martial to be examined by the European court. I was surprised two weeks ago to be approached by a senior judge advocate who praised the reforms to the system that had been caused by the application of the European convention. I thought that he might have been one of those crusty old judges, but he was not.
The court martial system was challenged in the European court by Corporal Findlay in 1996. The soldier had pleaded guilty at his original trial, but complained that the system whereby the convening officer appointed the members of the court and the prosecutor, directed the charges and then, post trial, became the confirming officer, was not independent. The European court upheld his complaint, which was the catalyst for the Armed Forces Act 1996. Parliament passed the Act, which set up an independent Army prosecuting authority with prosecuting officers who were drawn from professionally qualified lawyers and were independent of the chain of command. Further cases followed in the European Court that led to other changes. Some noble Lords may recall that it led to the ending of the practice in naval courts martial where the defendant was pushed in at the point of a cutlass.
The Armed Forces Act 2006 created a single tri-service prosecuting authority, known as the Service Prosecuting Authority, under the leadership of an independent director of service prosecutions. There was opposition. When I proposed that the pool for the panel should be widened, a noble and gallant Lord said to me in the corridor on the way to the Bishops’ Bar: “You should be shot”. The first DSP is Bruce Houlder, a civilian Queen's Counsel. He has introduced further excellent changes that make the system the envy of military courts in other jurisdictions, as I found out last month at an international seminar at Yale University. That is the way in which the European convention has changed the military justice system so much for the better. It is no longer a case of “march the guilty bastard in”, but a court that gives justice to the defendant.
I consider the Human Rights Act 1998 to be the outstanding piece of legislation of the previous Labour Government—next to the Government of Wales Act 1998. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, not simply on introducing the debate but on being the architect of an important piece in the structure of justice in our country.
Civil Legal Aid
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Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, there is no point in cutting legal aid if the effect is to increase government expenditure in other areas and at the same time deny access to justice. The Green Paper proposes a radical reduction in the scope of private family law issues for which legal aid will be available. That policy is based on a false premise; namely, that spending on legal aid fuels litigation and that the only alternative is mediation.
Family lawyers, as a group, are committed to settling cases out of court as expeditiously as possible, often by referring clients to mediation, but, more frequently, negotiating settlements themselves. In my early days as a solicitor, I was much involved in that sort of work. The Green Paper entirely neglects the current important role of lawyers in non-court-based resolution of legal disputes, particularly financial and custody disputes. It is very probably because clients were able to see a solicitor that litigation was avoided in many cases. Without professional guidance, ill founded and certainly ill prepared litigation conducted by the client in person will inevitably follow. That will mean a very substantial rise in the number of litigants in person in the family courts. Sir David Norgrove, chair of the Family Justice Review panel, in his interim report, which was published recently, has emphasised this point.
Those who lack the personal energy and other resources to take on litigation by themselves would not get access to justice at all. Those who have not been able to enforce the other party’s private law responsibilities for support and so on inevitably fall back on the state for housing and support, so that is where more state expenditure is incurred. One reason why mediation is currently successful is that the threat of litigation encourages people to adopt sensible positions in mediation or in settlement discussions. With that threat effectively removed in many cases by the removal of public funding for legal representation, successful mediation will be severely hampered.
Legal aid is to be granted where there is physical violence. There is an obvious perverse incentive for people to allege domestic violence just to get access to funding for their other issues. The other side to the argument could say, “Well, I never did that”, which will increase more contested court proceedings. Many women who do not disclose domestic violence that they have suffered, or refuse to apply for injunctive relief in relation to it, will not get a proper and safe resolution of the issues. The very class of person which the Green Paper most wants to protect will be left unprotected and in potentially extremely dangerous situations. Domestic violence very often comes to light only through the lawyers’ handling of the case when they learn it from a client who has kept it concealed from their family. Mediation in such cases will not work and should not be tried at all.
Medical negligence cases have played a very important role in improving health care by setting standards, publicising deficiencies and punishing failures. The thalidomide case is a very good example. In many cases, new procedures have been introduced and developed as a result of litigation. According to the Green Paper, taking clinical negligence out of legal aid would save £17 million.
Of the 500,000 avoidable incidents in England alone, as estimated by the DoH in 2009-10, the National Health Service Litigation Authority received only 6,652 claims. Expert solicitors who handle these claims will decide in 75 per cent of them that there is no case. Sometimes there is negligence but no injury and sometimes there is injury but no negligence. It is not possible to assess the chances of success in clinical negligence cases at the start of the case. There must be funding to find out if there is a case and for the higher cost cases. I follow the noble Lord, Lord Faulks in his pointing out that whether the issue is negligence or causation, expensive expert medical evidence is required to establish a basis for the claim before a decision to proceed is made.
The Government propose to remove legal aid for clinical negligence at the same time—I repeat, at the same time—as changing the no-win, no-fee agreements. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady King, who pointed out to me that children who were said to be still covered for clinical negligence cases are not to be, on which I am sure she will expand. When Sir Rupert Jackson published his proposals, he said:
“I stress the vital necessity of making no further cutbacks in legal aid availability or eligibility … the maintenance of legal aid at no less than the present levels makes sound … sense and is in the public interest”.
His proposals are based on the continuing existence of legal aid. Its removal will deny access to justice to some of the most vulnerable groups in the country—children, the sick and disabled. The need to streamline costs and for systems to be efficient should not be at their expense.
Baroness Northover
Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that this is another time-limited debate. When the clock reaches the five, noble Lords have had their five minutes.
Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved Regulators) Order 2011
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Legal Services Consumer Panel, which is an independent part of the Legal Services Board that recommended the order to the Lord Chancellor.
I warmly welcome the order, which will enable ILEX, as the body that regulates legal executives, to allow certain members to conduct litigation. The order is a notable first and is important for two reasons. First, it will permit associate prosecutors to be regulated by a professional body—the Institute of Legal Executives —in regard to the litigation work that they do. I believe that this arrangement will ensure that the consumer interest is reflected through these regulatory arrangements. Secondly, the order makes ILEX an approved regulator for litigation rights generally, which is a step on the way to ILEX empowering legal executives to provide litigation services to the public.
I would like to say a word about ILEX and its members, whom I hold in high regard. ILEX grew out of the old Solicitors Managing Clerks Association and has taken a real lead in diversity—in which I know the Minister takes a particular interest—in the profession. Three-quarters of ILEX members are women and 13 per cent are from black or ethnic minority backgrounds, compared with under 8 per cent in the population. Perhaps particularly important today, as my noble friend Lady Gale referred to, ILEX has provided a route to qualification as a lawyer for those who have neither started as a graduate nor had contacts in the profession. Indeed, just 2 per cent of ILEX members have a lawyer for a parent. ILEX has been a real beacon in providing “second chance” professional entry that is open to people from a wider range of backgrounds than many of our learned societies. Four out of five members do not have a parent who went to university. Very few ILEX members come from traditional legal or professional backgrounds.
Yet ILEX has created opportunities while firmly maintaining the standards of qualification. There are some 7,500 fellows of ILEX, who are subject to the code of conduct and all the same expectations of professional and personal standards and commitment to their clients as any other lawyer.
This order will help ILEX to continue to act as a gateway to the solicitors branch of the profession for a wide range of entrants. From a consumer perspective, it is a step towards clients having access to those from a wider social understanding and background, mixed with common sense and empathy. Your Lordships will understand why I am so supportive of this order—I recognise that not every lawyer is—but I am confident that, overseen as it is by the Legal Services Board, ILEX and its members will show themselves worthy of the new responsibility that they are about to get with this order.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, in her recommendation of ILEX. We were talking earlier about social mobility. It is exactly as she says, ILEX has provided a route to professional qualifications for many people who did not have the background, and sometimes not the university background, which would enable them to qualify any other way.
In my youth, managing clerks were a very important part of the solicitors’ branch of the profession. They were highly experienced people but in those days they could not appear in court. It was always very useful to follow the advice and the instructions that they gave and to enjoy the personal connection that they had with clients. We have moved on since those days and we now give members of ILEX the opportunity to acquire audience rights, which they have exercised very competently. Associate prosecutors under the CPS have done a great deal of work that would otherwise occupy a great deal of time and money and involve qualified lawyers, which is unnecessary. I very much support this measure.
Advocacy is a skill that cannot really be taught: either you can do it or you cannot. Much of the ability to be an advocate is acquired through experience. I am sure that ILEX, in performing its training and regulatory function, will ensure that those who go into court are fully conversant not just with the law that they have to apply, and that they have the ability to stand on their feet and speak, but that they will have a knowledge of ethics because, so far as prosecution is concerned, legal ethics is a very important part of the responsibilities of the advocate. I think, for example, of the necessity to disclose fully any evidence that may be in the hands of the prosecutor which could assist the defence. These matters do not necessarily come to the mind of an untrained person. I look to ILEX to continue its excellent training function and to ensure that these associate prosecutors have the full competencies to enable them to fulfil their role. I very much support the order.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I also support this statutory instrument. ILEX has well demonstrated that associate prosecutors can play a part in the criminal justice system. I endorse the important points that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has made about advocacy and, very importantly, about ethics.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, talked about this measure being a step and a progression. I mention a word of caution in this regard. ILEX has had enormous experience with managing clerks. Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, when I was a young barrister I benefited enormously from the advice of the managing clerks, who often kept me straight in court. However, if they choose to move into another field outside crime such as the civil or family field, that ought to be viewed with appropriate caution. I note that the Explanatory Memorandum to the statutory instrument states:
“The Lord Chief Justice raised a concern that any potential future extension of APs’ rights must be subject to full consultation with the judiciary and other interested parties”.
Associate prosecutors have undoubtedly gained expertise in the field of prosecution but they have not gained it in either civil or family work, with which I am much more familiar. It is important that that matter should be considered by the Legal Services Board and, indeed, by the Lord Chancellor to ensure that associate prosecutors have the necessary expertise to take that next step, which should be taken with caution. However, in saying all that, I endorse entirely the suitability of the statutory instrument.
Justice: Civil Litigation Reform
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Lord McNally
My Lords, I will certainly not bluff the House that I am able, with no legal training, to assess the noble and learned Lord’s suggestion. These are still proposals, and his intervention will be reported back to the Lord Chancellor. If his suggestions have merit—and coming from that source, I have no doubt that they do—I am sure they will be given full consideration before we bring forward our final proposals.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, centuries of English law produced a position whereby, in civil and criminal cases, it was a principle that the lawyer should not have a personal interest in the outcome of the case. In other words, he would be paid whether he won or lost. That was mitigated to ensure that there was proper access to justice by the introduction of the legal aid scheme. It was on that principle that during the previous Government’s period we on these Benches opposed the introduction of no-win no-fee schemes.
It is interesting to look at this Statement to see what are now said to be the problems resulting from the change from the basic principle that we had had for so long. The Statement refers to,
“the perverse situation where fear of excess costs forces defendants to settle, even when they know they are in the right”.
The proposals are also said to,
“begin to restore proportion and confidence in our system of justice”.
What has happened in the mean time, over the past 10 or 12 years, is that advertising has been allowed to proliferate and non-lawyers have collected and farmed claims. By advertising, they have drawn to themselves hundreds and thousands of claims and have then farmed them out to various firms of lawyers. All these ills have done nothing to improve the lot of the claimant who has been injured or who has a grievance that he wishes to be resolved.
It is because I have such a basic objection to no-win no-fee that I cannot completely endorse these proposals, but they are undoubtedly an improvement on what has gone before and they redress some of the problems that have arisen. Success fees and insurance premiums are recoverable; that is to say that I as a claimant can insure myself against losing the case and then charge the insurance premium, which I know can be tens of thousands of pounds, to the defendant, provided that I am successful. I can do that not if the case goes to court but if the case is settled at some stage, so the cost of litigation has been a huge problem that has faced defendants and insurance companies.
Another problem that arises because of that is that a plaintiff has very little interest in the amount of costs in the case. He is insured against paying the defendant’s costs, he will recover if he wins and if he loses, and he has none of his own costs to pay. It has been very damaging to permit no-win no-fee cases to go in the way that they have. The proposal to ensure that claimants have an interest in the result and are restrained from allowing their lawyers to run up massive bills of cost, as proposed, is something that I, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Bach, think is a way forward.
The second part of the Statement dealing with the consultation paper on the improvement and efficient delivery of civil justice is also to be welcomed. The proposals to give greater jurisdiction to small value cases, for small claims cases to be heard through the simple small claims process and to increase the threshold for going to the High Court are all to be welcomed.
Lord De Mauley
I draw my noble friend’s attention to the fact that Statements are supposed to be the occasion for brief comments and questions.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I apologise. I was thinking it was a debate.