Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I have added my name to this amendment, about which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has spoken so eloquently, because of the importance to our economic growth of maintaining data adequacy with the EU. I have two points to add to what he said.

First, as I said and observed on some occasions in Committee, this is legislation of unbelievable complexity. It is a bad read, except if you want a cure for insomnia. Secondly, it has the technique of amending and reamending earlier legislation. Thirdly, this is not the time to go into detail of the legal problems that arise, some of which we canvassed in Committee, as to whether this legislation has no holes in it. I do not think I would be doing any favours either to the position of the United Kingdom or to those who have been patient enough to stay and listen to this part of the debate by going into any of those in any detail, particularly those involving the European Convention on Human Rights and the fundamental charter. That is my first point, on the inherent nature of the legislative structure that we have created. As I said earlier, I very much hope we will never have such legislation again.

Secondly, in my experience, there is a tendency among lawyers steeped in an area or department often to feel, “Well, we know it’s all right; we built it. The legislation’s fine”. Therefore, there is an additional and important safeguard that I think we should adopt, which is for a fresh pair of eyes, someone outside the department or outside those who have created the legislation, to look at it again to see whether there are any holes in it. We cannot afford to go into this most important assessment of data adequacy without ensuring that our tackle is in order. I appreciate what the Minister said on the last occasion in Committee—it is for the EU to pick holes in it—but the only prudent course when dealing with anything of this complexity in a legal dispute or potential dispute is to ensure that your own tackle is in order and not to go into a debate about something without being sure of that, allowing the other side to make all the running. We should be on top of this and that is why I very much support this amendment.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones—as ever—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, for tabling Amendment 37 in their names. It would introduce a new clause that would require the Secretary of State to carry out an impact assessment of this Act and other changes to the UK’s domestic and international frameworks relating to data adequacy before the European Union’s reassessment of data adequacy in June this year.

I completely understand the concerns behind tabling this amendment. In the very worst-case scenario, of a complete loss of data adequacy in the assessment by the EU, the effect on many businesses and industries in this country would be knocking at the door of catastrophic. It cannot be allowed to happen.

However, introducing a requirement to assess the impact of the Bill on the European Union data adequacy decision requires us to speculate on EU intentions in a public document, which runs the risk of prompting changes on its part or revealing our hand to it in ways that we would rather not do. It is important that we do two things: understand our risk, without necessarily publishing it publicly; and continue to engage at ministerial and official level, as I know we are doing intensively. I think the approach set out in this amendment runs the risk of being counterproductive.

Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL]

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 22nd March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I also warmly support the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond. I support it because it has the right balance of radicalism to fit the revolution in which we are living. I will look at it through eight points—that may be ambitious in five minutes, but I think I can do it.

There is a degree of serious common ground. First, we need fair standards to protect the public. We need to protect privacy, security, human rights, fraud and intellectual property. We also need to protect, however, rights to access, like data and the processes by which artificial intelligence makes decisions in respect of you. An enforcement system is needed to make that work. If we have that, we do not need the elaborate mechanism of the EU by regulating individual products.

Secondly, it is clear there has to be a consistency of standards. We cannot have one rule for one market, and one rule for another market. If you look back at the 19th century, when we underwent the last massive technological revolution, the courts sometimes made the mistake of fashioning rules to fit individual markets. That was an error, and that is why we need to look at it comprehensively.

Thirdly, we have got to protect innovation. I believe that is common ground, but the points to which I shall come in a moment show the difficulties.

Fourthly, we have got to produce a system that is interoperable. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, referred to the trade documents Bill, which was the product of international development. We have adapted the common law to fit it and other countries’ systems will do it. That is a sine qua non.

I believe all those points are common ground, but I now come to four points that I do not think are common ground. The first is simplicity. When you look at Bills in this House, I sometimes feel we are making the law unworkable by its complexity. There can be absolutely no doubt that regulation is becoming unworkable because of the complexity. I can quite understand why innovators are horrified at the prospect of regulation, but they have got the wrong kind of regulation. They have got what we have created, unfortunately; it is a huge burden and is not based on simplicity and principles. If we are to persuade people to regulate, we need a radically different approach, and this Bill brings it about.

Secondly, there needs to be transparency and accountability. I do not believe that doing this through a small body within a ministry is the right way; it has to be done openly.

Thirdly—and this is probably highly controversial—when you look at regulation, our idea is of the statutory regulator with its vast empire created. Do we need that? Look back at the 19th century: the way in which the country developed was through self-regulation supported by the courts, Parliament and government. We need to look at that again. I see nothing wrong with self-regulation. It has itself a shocking name, as a result of what happened in the financial markets at the turn of the century, but I believe that we should look at it again. Effective self-regulation can be good regulation.

Finally, the regulator must be independent. There is nothing inconsistent with self-regulation and independence.

We need a radical approach, and the Bill gives us that. No one will come here if we pretend we are going to set up a regulator—like the financial markets regulator, the pensions regulator and so on—because people will recoil in horror. If we have this Bill, however, with its simplicity and emphasis on comprehensiveness, we can do it. By saying that, it seems to me that the fundamental flaw in what the Government are doing is leaving the current regulatory system in place. We cannot afford to do that. We need to face the new industrial revolution with a new form of regulation.